Natural permitted flow of a thread - 1. The false allegation.

[cryptohunter]

Local rules - No contributors to my fanzine thread here  https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5088527.0 can post here
so if you posted there already (not including myself) then you are not permitted to post here certainly no qwk either. Also no direct examples or making it personal or I will insist on deletion. I would have previously welcomed debate by any person but since my reasonable requests not to make it personal before were ignored then I have no choice.


If you find a thread where someone has made a false accusation about you, then apparently you are not allowed to request they present evidence to substantiate this claim because it can be seen as off topic?  I notice a great proportion of deleted posts seem to look just like legitimate truthful defences against false accusations or out right lies. I mean even in your own thread where you are the OP -- if someone comes in and makes a false accusation and it devolves into an argument you yourself can be deleted for going off topic?

What can be done?  You just have to let it seem like a legit claim and say nothing?

Should you not be able to request evidence or it seems you are fucked, and also supply observable evidence of your own to demonstrate their untrustworthy nature to further destroy their credibility?

If you call them out and the thread starts to go off topic you get reported and deleted?

I mean you can not report them for being off topic if they accuse you of being guilty of something that is being discussed in the OP. You can not report them for false accusations because  the mod has no way to know if it is true.

It seems like a loop hole that can be exploited quite nicely to get a person in a lot of trouble.  

I think people that make false allegations repeatedly without evidence to substantiate should be the ones in trouble not those defending themselves.

[Foxpup]

Quit talking in riddles. What exactly are you complaining about (this time)? Did your off-topic rants get deleted again?

And please don't misconstrue my brief reply as evidence that I give a fuck. This time I'm just passing on the fucks of everyone whom you don't want posting in this thread (a list that I'm notably absent from - maybe you do love me after all). Though to be honest, I haven't actually checked how many fucks they're willing to give - I'll just take a collection later and hope they're good for it.

[cryptohunter]

making it personal

1. You broke my local rules "no making it personal"  I bet nothing gets done about it.

2. You can't stop stalking me

3. It is foolish to view this as a riddle. It is posing a sensible dilemma that one faces when they notice false allegations with no grounding referring to  themselves or actually even about others. It seems to me that not correcting false information in a thread is sub optimal and irresponsible. I think calling for evidence to be provided to substantiate their claim or else for the claim retracted is reasonable and does fall within the natural flow.

As ever I simply seek to drill down and establish some clear rules on what is considered off topic and irrelevant to the degree it crosses the threshold of deletion by mods.

[Foxpup]

1. You broke my local rules "no making it personal"  I bet nothing gets done about it.

Is that meant to be a clue? Your complaint is about something personal? Does that mean your off-topic rants are getting deleted again?

2. You can't stop stalking me

Now who's making it personal? I participate in multiple areas of this forum and its associated dramas; you're just a small part of it. But if helps your ego, go on thinking you're a bigger part of my forum life than you really are.

3. It is foolish to view this a riddle. It is posing a sensible dilemma that one faces when they notice false allegations with no grounding referring to  themselves or actually even about others. It seems to me that not correcting false information in a thread is sub optimal and irresponsible. I think calling for evidence to be provided to substantiate their claim or else for the claim retracted is reasonable and does fall within the natural flow.

If it's not a riddle, that I'm afraid I just don't get what you're complaining about. Can you give me another clue?

[cryptohunter]

1. You broke my local rules "no making it personal"  I bet nothing gets done about it.

Is that meant to be a clue? Your complaint is about something personal? Does that mean your off-topic rants are getting deleted again?

2. You can't stop stalking me

Now who's making it personal? I participate in multiple areas of this forum and its associated dramas; you're just a small part of it. But if helps your ego, go on thinking you're a bigger part of my forum life than you really are.

3. It is foolish to view this a riddle. It is posing a sensible dilemma that one faces when they notice false allegations with no grounding referring to  themselves or actually even about others. It seems to me that not correcting false information in a thread is sub optimal and irresponsible. I think calling for evidence to be provided to substantiate their claim or else for the claim retracted is reasonable and does fall within the natural flow.

If it's not a riddle, that I'm afraid I just don't get what you're complaining about. Can you give me another clue?

1. this is a thread to determine what is seen as natural permitted flow. Therefore the clue was No specific examples and not making it personal.

2. lol sorry but your post history demonstrates that I am a considerable target of your "interest" here on bct.

3. It is not important for me that you understand. I don't feel you are at your best in these hypothetical debates. Although I did enjoy your analogy thread contributions. So I must not be entirely ungrateful.

Now back on topic foxpup does not understand so that is fine he can go to threads he does understand and contribute there.

[Foxpup]

Now back on topic foxpup does not understand so that is fine he can go to threads he does understand and contribute there.

Can do. But before I go, does your referring to me as "he" mean I can stop being a vixen now?

[cryptohunter]

Now back on topic foxpup does not understand so that is fine he can go to threads he does understand and contribute there.

Can do. But before I go, does your referring to me as "he" mean I can stop being a vixen now?

Ha, well me and bones may have differing opinions on that so I don't like to speak for everyone. Besides, I bestowed the title of vixen upon you and it would appear heavy handed of me to take that away.

[Joseph R. Cord]

Local rules - No contributors to my fanzine thread here  https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5088527.0 can post here
so if you posted there already (not including myself) then you are not permitted to post here certainly no qwk either. Also no direct examples or making it personal or I will insist on deletion. I would have previously welcomed debate by any person but since my reasonable requests not to make it personal before were ignored then I have no choice.


If you find a thread where someone has made a false accusation about you, then apparently you are not allowed to request they present evidence to substantiate this claim because it can be seen as off topic?  I notice a great proportion of deleted posts seem to look just like legitimate truthful defences against false accusations or out right lies. I mean even in your own thread where you are the OP -- if someone comes in and makes a false accusation and it devolves into an argument you yourself can be deleted for going off topic?

What can be done?  You just have to let it seem like a legit claim and say nothing?

Should you not be able to request evidence or it seems you are fucked, and also supply observable evidence of your own to demonstrate their untrustworthy nature to further destroy their credibility?

If you call them out and the thread starts to go off topic you get reported and deleted?

I mean you can not report them for being off topic if they accuse you of being guilty of something that is being discussed in the OP. You can not report them for false accusations because  the mod has no way to know if it is true.

It seems like a loop hole that can be exploited quite nicely to get a person in a lot of trouble.  

I think people that make false allegations repeatedly without evidence to substantiate should be the ones in trouble not those defending themselves.

I really "SUGGEST" Admin to make this thread "STICKY" it's so useful!!! A fascinating thread to read. If there was "OPTION" of voting for the "THREAD" of the "YEAR" I would have given it to THIS "HANDSDOWN".

[Lafu]

I really "SUGGEST" Admin to make this thread "STICKY" it's so useful!!! A fascinating thread to read. If there was "OPTION" of voting for the "THREAD" of the "YEAR" I would have given it to it "HANDSDOWN".

And i "suggest"  an Admin should " Sticky "  your " Plagiarized Whitepaper " on the Altcoin Board in Red for a warning to all other coming Coin Devs and Whitepaper writer for have an Example how you not should doing !

[cryptohunter]

I really "SUGGEST" Admin to make this thread "STICKY" it's so useful!!! A fascinating thread to read. If there was "OPTION" of voting for the "THREAD" of the "YEAR" I would have given it to it "HANDSDOWN".

And i "suggest"  an Admin should " Sticky "  your " Plagiarized Whitepaper " on the Altcoin Board in Red for a warning to all other coming Coin Devs and Whitepaper writer for have an Example how you not should doing !

lafu

1. you are breaking my local rules by making it personal

2.  you illustrate the need for this thread and the other 2 separate topics. Your post could certainly be ruled as off topic even if it did not break my local rules which of course it does.




@Joseph R Cord. - thanks for the kind words of appreciation.

[Joseph R. Cord]

I really "SUGGEST" Admin to make this thread "STICKY" it's so useful!!! A fascinating thread to read. If there was "OPTION" of voting for the "THREAD" of the "YEAR" I would have given it to it "HANDSDOWN".

And i "suggest"  an Admin should " Sticky "  your " Plagiarized Whitepaper " on the Altcoin Board in Red for a warning to all other coming Coin Devs and Whitepaper writer for have an Example how you not should doing !

I don't know "WHERE" it fits in the "RULES" of this "THREAD", but overall it's wrong to do "PERSONAL" attack anyone. It's my suggestion, and my "RIGHT" to view. You have given yours, did I attacked it? If you dislike my "SUGGESTION" please, IGNORE!

I don't "WISH" to break rules of this thread, but just a quick thing. "MAYA Preferred" is "ALREADY" sky rocketing, to say the least.

I really "SUGGEST" Admin to make this thread "STICKY" it's so useful!!! A fascinating thread to read. If there was "OPTION" of voting for the "THREAD" of the "YEAR" I would have given it to it "HANDSDOWN".

And i "suggest"  an Admin should " Sticky "  your " Plagiarized Whitepaper " on the Altcoin Board in Red for a warning to all other coming Coin Devs and Whitepaper writer for have an Example how you not should doing !

lafu

1. you are breaking my local rules by making it personal

2.  you illustrate the need for this thread and the other 2 separate topics. Your post could certainly be ruled as off topic even if it did not break my local rules which of course it does.


@Joseph R Cord. - thanks for the kind words of appreciation.

You "DESERVE" to be appreciated, but I know these people won't do it as they are "JEALOUS" of someone as capable as you!!

[sirazimuth]

.... "SUGGEST" ...... "STICKY" .....!!! ...... "OPTION" ......"THREAD" ..... "YEAR" ....... THIS "HANDSDOWN".... "SUGGESTION" IGNORE!

"DESERVE"...... "JEALOUS" ......!!

...."WHERE" .... "RULES".... "THREAD", ..... "PERSONAL"..... "RIGHT" .....IGNORE!

.... "WISH" ..... "MAYA .... "ALREADY" .....

Hey Joe, just some friendly advice ...lose the quotated caps thing and all the !!!!!
Who knows, you may earn merit #2.

[SaltySpitoon]

Moderators don't touch anything regarding scam accusations except in the most extreme of cases. If you know someone who had a post deleted in a scam accusation thread, it means that they were criminally off topic. Borderline calls might be made occasionally elsewhere, especially in boards with stricter standards, but scam accusations, even stupid ones, are held with special care.

Hierarchy of Sacred Posts:

Satoshi's
Admin's
Scam Accusations
other Moderators
Meta
Typical threads
Strict board standards

[suchmoon]

Moderators don't touch anything regarding scam accusations

That's not what the OP is ranting about. It's about someone saying something like "insert_username_here is a troll" in some random thread and then insert_username_here showing up with a 5000-word essay to respond to this "accusation".

[cryptohunter]

Moderators don't touch anything regarding scam accusations

That's not what the OP is ranting about. It's about someone saying something like "insert_username_here is a troll" in some random thread and then insert_username_here showing up with a 5000-word essay to respond to this "accusation".

So here we observe suchmoon breaking my local rules. Whilst he admits to taking me off ignore to get my posts deleted and later saying their only hope now is to keep reporting my posts until...... well i guess they try to get me banned for having too many posts deleted.

What he describes as ranting seems like a normal post requesting information on what to do if factual presentation of observable events or asking they present evidence to substantiate false claims they are making against you are to be deleted and later used towards a grand total that exceeds the threshold to ban someone.

He seems to be suggesting that it is wrong to ask for evidence of their false claims and when they refuse respond with legitimate claims based on observable events that they are only making these false claims due to me highlighting their REAL and observable dirty deeds.

No that is not fair at all.

Please do not post in this thread again suchmoon. Thanks. 

[SaltySpitoon]

If people report 1000 good posts you make, not a single one will be removed.

[cryptohunter]

If people report 1000 good posts you make, not a single one will be removed.

This is quite a strange post. No good post has ever been deleted? ever says who?

Good and bad are meaningless or low value terms without a very strict set of criteria that all mods stick to equally.

I can present posts that I have no idea why they were deleted. It is completely weird. However, this is not really the point of this thread. Some of those posts are  helpful replies to those not even in meta?

You are missing the point of my post completely. Please read it again and it is kind of off topic really. The full context should be considered and so should the natural flow.

Let me give you an hypothetical example. Say I want you banned and I know when a threshold of 80 deleted posts is crossed in say 3 months you will be eligible for a ban. Since nothing else has worked to shut you up about something I want hidden about my past or the past of my friends. I have even said in public i will take you off ignore to deliberately get your posts deleted. and discussing in public with my colluders ...our only hope now it just to all keep reporting all of SS posts and ..... obviously to get SS banned.


SO...

1/A thread is started called what shall we do with trolling shitposting spammers.

2/The op discusses a different example a different person (not you) and presents their (apparent evidence)

3/I turn up and say yeah SS is also a spammer pushing all his lies and bullshit blathering nonsense everywhere, he should be banned. His posts are bumbling piles of crap and trolling madness.

4/ You read this (not that you even knew you would be mentioned) post and reply.....oh really ..please present evidence of this now or retract it you liar. That is a false accusation.

5/ I do not respond but now the OP comes and starts saying yeah its is true SS is another spammer his nonsense and false information and strange conspiracy theories are fucked up and he should be banned. Hopefully he will soon.

6/ You then demand again that me and the OP present evidence of all of these lies, nonsense and you go further to say... well you guys are saying this only because ...then you present observable events demonstrating a compelling reason why we are saying these things about you.... it is because we are committing far worse deeds and have been caught red handed but nothing has been done about it ,but you keep mentioning it and we want you to shut up.

7/ the argument continues for a while and we will not present any evidence but just keep discussing you as if our false and unsubstantiated statements about you are  true, then you keep asking for presentation of evidence and presenting yourself the observable events that demonstrate we are guilty of far worse and that is our motive for telling lies about you.

8/ The OP orders you to leave the thread and you see now that all 5 or 6 of your posts are deleted and you have those alerts in your mail box.

9/ You check the thread and we are still their discussing your apparent lies, and trolling and how you should be banned as if it is totally accepted fact that you do not dispute. Their posts are still there.

----------------------------
So you just think damn it what can be done now? if i can not even ask for evidence or present evidence to destroy their credibility ??.... well make your own thread is about all you can do? then they complain you are making too many threads about the same thing.

You forget about this after a time... but several occasions like this happens and your mail box is full of deletes?? later this total is used as a metric for a possible ban??

Hence the need to discuss what can be done about this here, You are rewarding liars and punishing those that tell the truth.
It must be noted actually.. I am not saying all of my deletes are due to this but a huge amount are.

The other posts in this series will cover other scenarios that are also open to exploitation.

[SaltySpitoon]

If people report 1000 good posts you make, not a single one will be removed.

This is quite a strange post. No good post has ever been deleted? ever says who?

Good and bad are meaningless or low value terms without a very strict set of criteria that all mods stick to equally.

I said it. Consider how many posts have been deleted, versus how many people have claimed their post did not deserve to be deleted. Then, read through their claims and see how many weren't answered with the reason why the post was deleted with proper justification.

People keep sticking to this theory that the system is broken because moderators are allowed to enforce the rules however they see fit, yet the past ten years shows little complaint about them. Considering that in a board full of crypto anarchists, if there was the slightest hint of a problem, you would think the entire forum would be set ablaze.

It may seem strange to you, but after deleting 10,000 posts, impartial judgement regarding post deletion become second nature. Things aren't quite as without strict criteria as you might believe.

[cryptohunter]

If people report 1000 good posts you make, not a single one will be removed.

This is quite a strange post. No good post has ever been deleted? ever says who?

Good and bad are meaningless or low value terms without a very strict set of criteria that all mods stick to equally.

I said it. Consider how many posts have been deleted, versus how many people have claimed their post did not deserve to be deleted. Then, read through their claims and see how many weren't answered with the reason why the post was deleted with proper justification.

People keep sticking to this theory that the system is broken because moderators are allowed to enforce the rules however they see fit, yet the past ten years shows little complaint about them. Considering that in a board full of crypto anarchists, if there was the slightest hint of a problem, you would think the entire forum would be set ablaze.

It may seem strange to you, but after deleting 10,000 posts, impartial judgement regarding post deletion become second nature. Things aren't quite as without strict criteria as you might believe.

But not to appear an asshole you also said that it is legit to red trust me because I said I liked lemons.  So you must forgive me for not always accepting what you say straight away.

Now again you have not addressed my point. Let us accept IF the mod only views the reported post and only checks the OP then he could be forgiven for mistakenly just taking the reporters word on the posts being BAD. I mean this is actually feasible and within perhaps his mandate.

HOWEVER as I just said this is NOT the point of this thread. It is highlighting that in its current form this mandate allows the proliferation of false information and the creation of echo chambers that promulgate FALSE information and SUB OPTIMAL  outcomes and solutions. It also PUNISHES people who tell the TRUTH and REWARDS  those that LIE.

Please review the entire post again and address the central point of the thread in the full context. It is not essentially the mod whom is always acting outside his mandate (although it is clear many mods are biased against me) it is the fact this is an exploitable loophole.

I have contacted mods before and talked about these kinds of issues and was told just ignore them if they are bothering me. They will not get involved. Fair enough that is i guess what they are supposed to say because they are "supposed" to be impartial and not  get involved with board politics.

This does not solve the problem especially if you are one person and they are 20 or more.

False allegations (regarding actions on this board) without supplying observable events and evidence should be taken seriously and those that can not supply observable events to back up their false claims need to delete those false allegations and they themselves banned if they keep doing it. This is TROLLING " spreading false information continuously" per the rules. Regardless of whether you say trolling is actually impossible to define. That is fine, I agree with some of your points in the last thread that you didn't continue the debate with me on.

I have never seen you come to one of my threads and agree with me at all even once. You usually turn up present a conflicting opinion then say you are too busy to debate it, I must either accept it or just ignore it. This is not sensible behaviour. You either would like to discuss and debate it or else you just want to contradict everything I say and then just avoid debating it with me.

I mean your opinion is interesting but like the last debate you just vanish.

Rather than start a new debate why not finish the last one?
Now though you are here so let's just finish this one.

[SaltySpitoon]

But not to appear an asshole you also said that it is legit to red trust me because I said I liked lemons.

It is, anyone could leave anyone negative feedback for liking lemons if they really felt like it.

Again, to be blunt for the sake of not mincing words, not as any sort of personal attack, but I don't want to debate you because I don't care about your opinion. You ask a question, I try to reply, if we don't see eye to eye, its no big deal. I answer quite a few threads that appear in meta, I probably said it before, its out of habit.

False allegations don't matter all that much, this is the internet, just ignore the people you don't like, and that is really the extent of your recourse unless its a major issue that requires moderator intervention (death threats, doxing, etc). If someone calls you a flea infested coke head, you don't challenge them to a battle of wits, you say, yeah whatever. If someone claims you scammed them, you provide evidence that you didn't, if they want to refute your proof, thats on them, if not, leave it as is. If you worry about little potential problems, or besting your enemies in a war of words, you are just going to waste your own time.

Whatever perceived moderator bias that is against you I can assure isn't real. The moderation staff have to deal with actual nuisances. At worst, I'd just say you come off as the kid who asks why to every single response someone could possibly give you, a little frustrating, but not worth holding a grudge against. You aren't even in the top 10th percentile of people they'd be annoyed at. Keep in mind, the Bitcoin crowd tend to be pretty anti authority of any sort. Give someone the ability to keep a user from posting about the lizardmen that are currently fighting the federal reserve for ownership of the moon, and you'll get a full PM inbox of threats and insulting posts from someone who legitimately needs a psychological evaluation.  

You are very caught up on observable facts and all, but what happens if someone disagrees with you? Then its no longer a fact, its an opinion. I've been stating the lemon thing as absolute fact, but you seem to disagree with me. There are very few facts on this forum, moderator discretion is what allows them to classify trolling versus people having a difference of opinion.  


TLDR; In my opinion, you need to relax. Stop caring so much what others think. Who cares if there are some people you think are jerks, ignore them. If you can't look past what other people are doing, you are going to be incredibly unhappy here, and I imagine everywhere else. Stop worrying about potential loopholes that have existed for years, but nothing has come of them.

I had 5 minutes of freetime with nothing better to do, so I wrote out more than a few words. If you want to work on saving your own time, I'd recommend not responding to me, I might read your response, I probably wont respond. By the way, believe it or not, I'm not a jerk (as far as I know) I'm not a short tempered crotchety miserable existence thats just here to tell you what to do. I'm just a fella who advocates for being aloof when it comes to forum drama, and saving everyone's sanity one blunt paragraph at a time.