Which Mixer is getting axed next?

[Mpamaegbu]

First, it was Bestmixer services that got truncated and the signature advertorials ended abruptly in the 8th Week https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5125389.340, then a few days later

Bitblender opted out of running their signature campaigns https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5100568.msg51243240#msg51243240 in a dramatic manner yesterday.

Which Mixer is next? Is this going to be the end of the Mixers? What really is going on here? I know the cyber security dudes are keeping a close watch on the Bitcoin mixing sites. But what really is going on?

[GreatArkansas]

Base on Overview of Bitcointalk Signature-Ad Campaigns [Last update: 05-May-2019]:
There are three current listed; BestMixer, BitBlender and ChipMixer. Since the thread last update was May 5, these 2 sig camp about mixers ended/closed.
But if we remove BestMixer and BitBlender.

Only ChipMixer left for having the signature campaign active.

BITCLOAK BITCOIN MIXER [SIGNATURE CAMPAIGN] [CFNP] This signature campaign of Bitcloack CFNP before of the BestMixer issue.
Both BitBlender and BitCloack websites are still up. These are only mixers I am familiar with.

Which Mixer is next? Is this going to be the end of the Mixers?

As what I see after the BestMixer issue is a domino effect since BestMixer has one of the mixers that has the largest total transaction. So, those underdogs mixers can easily be taken down once they are proven breaking some law.

EDIT: Found a 2019 List Bitcoin Mixers Bitcoin Tumblers Websites thread, since there is a list of current known mixers, you can select and predict which next is getting axed.

[stadus]

This is pretty alarming, we don't want to see this but I think there measures now are more on preventive since the authorities are making harsh measures on mixers. I don't want to speculate on which is next because they are all in one industry.

However, I believe things are just temporary, if there is at least one mixer that will survive, those mixers that shut down now can soon rise with a new name and maybe stronger, they can just copy the method employed by the surviving mixers and they are good again.

This side of issue is only the operators, the market of business is still huge and will remain, though it could also affect their confidence but eventually it will be restore as the reputation of mixers will be build up once again.

Guys, nothing to worry, this is just part of the changes which I believe for the betterment of the mixing industry.
We can just view it as a dump moment of bitcoin and eventually recover and now on it's bullish mode.

[BitBustah]

There is so much money to be made off mixer fees that many more will pop up.  Serious mixers will operate in lenient countries that don't punish people for this type of shit.

[imstillthebest]

There is so much money to be made off mixer fees that many more will pop up.  Serious mixers will operate in lenient countries that don't punish people for this type of shit.

So much money ?  Not all people uses a sevice like this and mixing site owners do still need to pay in order for thier site to keep on running  .i think the reason why mixers are getting shutdown is because they are illegal ? You know hackers and scammers use this service to get away the coins that they stole   

@op Im waiting for chipmixer to to get axed soon  .

[squatter]

So much money ?  Not all people uses a sevice like this and mixing site owners do still need to pay in order for thier site to keep on running  .i think the reason why mixers are getting shutdown is because they are illegal ? You know hackers and scammers use this service to get away the coins that they stole   

It's a legal grey area. I haven't seen any regulations passed that specifically affect mixers. I'm sure they are used by some people to launder money, but even in the Bestmixer case, Europol seems unsure of the extent. Notably, no one was arrested in that case, either.

I imagine Bitblender was spooked by the Bestmixer bust, especially if they have operations in Europe. If so, hopefully they're planning to relaunch under a new name and from a new location.

[Mpamaegbu]

 
@op Im waiting for chipmixer to to get axed soon.  

Lol...

I know it's hard getting into that campaign, right? Apart from that, is there any reason for wanting them shutdown? I guess Chipmixer participants are apprehensive and jittery now, especially those who don't have a life outside this forum.

[mk4]

You know hackers and scammers use this service to get away the coins that they stole   

Come on. It's the Roubini/Dimon/Schiff argument once again. Not saying this solely to defend mixers, but not because people use mixers, it doesn't automatically mean 100% is for shady purposes. There's nothing wrong with wanting privacy over one's funds.

[BitHodler]

There is so much money to be made off mixer fees that many more will pop up. 

It depends though. With how the fees have increased, small mixing tasks probably cost more than they bring in. Mixers make money off the larger mixing tasks where a small percentage accounts for at least a decent amount.

And even if there was a lot of money to be made, only the existing ones will gobble up probably 90% of the whole market because of how important trust and reputation is. No one is going to trust a freshly started mixer right away.

[1Referee]

 
@op Im waiting for chipmixer to to get axed soon.  

Lol...

I know it's hard getting into that campaign, right? Apart from that, is there any reason for wanting them shutdown?

Spot on.

It makes zero sense other than someone being salty about not being able to participate in the campaign to trash one of the most important services in the space. Based on that, it's probably safe to say that he isn't a Bitcoin user at all, just a leech.

Nothing is more important than privacy in this space. If you can't mix your coins, then you can just as easily hand over all your data to the government and services you use directly. In that regard, I hope that all these shutdowns have made existing mixers more aware of the risks, therefore up their standards and go even more underground where possible.

[The Sceptical Chymist]

You know hackers and scammers use this service to get away the coins that they stole   

And people use Tor for all sorts of nefarious purposes, and yet it was designed by the US government (if I'm not completely mistaken).  In any case, nobody has tried to shut it down yet.  If everything that could be used do help criminals got shut down, the world would come to a screeching halt, and what this recent action looks like to me is a witch hunt.

I guess Chipmixer participants are apprehensive and jittery now, especially those who don't have a life outside this forum.

I certainly wouldn't want to see the Chipmixer campaign end, but it wouldn't be the end of the world for me if it did.  I've been in numerous campaigns, and with the exception of 777Coin, they've all ended.  I have a life outside the forum, but I do like earning bitcoin as it gives me some extra dough to experiment with trading and/or holding bitcoin.  It's a pain in the ass buying bitcoin with fiat.

It's a legal grey area. I haven't seen any regulations passed that specifically affect mixers.

I imagine it is, but I doubt any of these mixer services are going to fight back.  And a lot of laws are overarching and can be used to prosecute things you wouldn't think were possible.  So if I'm not mistaken, this is a European thing right now with the shutdowns.  Are the remaining mixing services all based in Europe?  I don't even know where Chipmixer is incorporated.

[LeGaulois]

Forget the signature campaigns man, that's not what we're interested in. In the near future, you will understand why to use mixers, dexs, and privacy-centric crypto, etc.

As long a mixer is able to do a job correctly there is nothing to be afraid. Mixers have been here for years now. If authorities successfully tracked the TXs guess what, it's because the mixer hasn't 'a so great system'

[figmentofmyass]

As long a mixer is able to do a job correctly there is nothing to be afraid. Mixers have been here for years now. If authorities successfully tracked the TXs guess what, it's because the mixer hasn't 'a so great system'

apparently most mixers aren't so great. this guy has broken most of the algorithms used by centralized mixers---all besides chipmixer, that is: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5117328.0

So if I'm not mistaken, this is a European thing right now with the shutdowns.  Are the remaining mixing services all based in Europe?  I don't even know where Chipmixer is incorporated.

i would have assumed no mixer operator would be dumb enough to operate from europe. i thought wrong.....

[gentlemand]

I know it's hard getting into that campaign, right? Apart from that, is there any reason for wanting them shutdown? I guess Chipmixer participants are apprehensive and jittery now, especially those who don't have a life outside this forum.

What happens happens. I for one would certainly not begrudge them shutting down. Why bother risking it? Even if they're confident in their set up you never know what law enforcement has up its sleeve. And anyone dependent on a sig campaign is a fool. Loads have died with no warning at all.

There is so much money to be made off mixer fees that many more will pop up.  Serious mixers will operate in lenient countries that don't punish people for this type of shit.

If I were toying with it I'd want to see if anything came of Bestmixer prosecution wise. It's possible the operators won't be found. It looks like plenty of people who used it might have been.  

If mixers become considered to be something marginal that also attracts marginal personalities with all the exit scamming that entails. Up until now mixing was seen as a useful adjunct to crypto life, though always a little grey. We may end up with a scummier and scammier class of operators if they go into it with lawless expectations.

[LeGaulois]

As long a mixer is able to do a job correctly there is nothing to be afraid. Mixers have been here for years now. If authorities successfully tracked the TXs guess what, it's because the mixer hasn't 'a so great system'

apparently most mixers aren't so great. this guy has broken most of the algorithms used by centralized mixers---all besides chipmixer, that is: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5117328.0

We've never got any evidence before but it's something we all knew or suspected. At least I'm and I'm surely not the first and not the last.
3 or 4 years back I remember when I posted here to say some mixers aren't effective and TXs can be tracked if someone has the resources, people replied I was trolling but I wasn't.

Now the thing is, Mixers improved with the years, but not all. While it wasn't a problem before now it is and authorities are after the broken mixers. And I can think of ~2 other mixers as a "good target" for them

[gentlemand]

BTW, it'd be good to hear of some kind of a reassurance by ChipMixer that they aren't going anywhere, I hope they are unaffected by recent events...

I don't think they've made an official statement but they did refill the escrow address for the signature campaign which is a good sign I suppose.

Chipmixer have dropped a hint that it's business as usual according to that. Still, considering everything that's gone on it would be good business to make an actual statement about it. People may be holding off.

[CryptopreneurBrainboss]

Make your choice from the list before, anymore could be the next bestmixer and possiblities are some are already under investigation just as bestmixer was but nobody knew although if I was to pick the least favorite to get axed my vote will go to chipmixer (they appear more professional than the rest) I could be wrong though lol .

2019 List Bitcoin Mixers Bitcoin Tumblers Websites

⭐Name: ChipMixer
🔹Clearnet link: https://chipmixer.com
🔹Tor link: chipmixerwzxtzbw.onion
🔹Bitcointalk thread link: Here
🔹Fees: PWYW (Pay what you want)
⭐Name: BitMix.Biz
🔹Clearnet link: https://bitmix.biz
🔹Tor link: bitmixbizymuphkc.onion
🔹Bitcointalk thread link: Here
🔹Fees:  from 0.4% to 4% (+ Network fees 0.001)
⭐Name: BitCloak
🔹Clearnet link: https://bitcloak43blmhmn.com
🔹Tor link: bitcloak43blmhmn.onion
🔹Bitcointalk thread link: Here
🔹Fees: Randomized ~2% (+ Network fees 0.001)
⭐Name: Mixer
🔹Clearnet link: https://[banned mixer]
🔹Tor link: mixermikevpntu2o.onion
🔹Bitcointalk thread link:  Here
🔹Fees: From 1% to 5% (depending on the method) (+ Network fees)
⭐Name: PrivCoin
🔹Clearnet link: https://privcoin.io
🔹Tor link: tr5ods7ncr6eznny.onion
🔹Bitcointalk thread link: Here
🔹Fees: minimum fee 0.8% (+ Network fees 0.0008)
⭐Name: Pay Shield
🔹Clearnet link: N/A
🔹Tor link: payshld6oxbu5eft.onion
🔹Bitcointalk thread link:  N/A
🔹Fees: (+ Network fees)
⭐Name: CryptoMixer
🔹Clearnet link: https://[banned mixer]
🔹Tor link: cryptomixns23scr.onion
🔹Bitcointalk thread link: here
🔹Fees:  0.5% + 0.0005BTC
⭐Name: MixTum
🔹Clearnet link: https://[banned mixer]
🔹Tor link: mixtum5lbuslyow2.onion
🔹Bitcointalk thread link: here
🔹Fees:  5% (+ Network fee)
⭐Name: Ecomix
🔹Clearnet link: https://ecomix.io
🔹Tor link:  ecomix7ez6ygyou4.onion
🔹Bitcointalk thread link: Here
🔹Fees: From 0.3% to 4% (+ Network fees 0.00001 to 0.0003 )
⭐ Name: Blender.io
🔹 Clearnet link: https://blender.io
🔹 Tor link: blenderiocpxfema.onion
🔹 Bitcointalk thread link: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5052876
🔹 Fees: From 0.5% to 2.5% for each operation, plus extra 0.0001 BTC for each tar
⭐Name: Wasabi Wallet
🔹Clearnet link: https://wasabiwallet.io
🔹Tor link: wasabiukrxmkdgve5kynjztuovbg43uxcbcxn6y2okcrsg7gb6jdmbad.onion/
🔹Bitcointalk thread link: Here
🔹Fees: 0.003%
⭐Name: BitMaximum
🔹Clearnet link: https://bitmaximum.io
🔹Tor link: bitmaximumgnmsaf.onion
🔹Bitcointalk thread link: Here
🔹Fees:  From 0.5% to 15% (+ Network fee)
⭐Name: FoxMixer
🔹Clearnet link: https://www.foxmixer.com
🔹Tor link: foxmixer6mrsuxrl.onion
🔹Bitcointalk thread link: Here
🔹Fees: Vary, depends on confirmation time.
⭐Name: MyBitMix
🔹Clearnet link: http://mybitmix.com Mirror: http://mybitmix.biz
🔹Tor link: mybitmix7rkdtzmi.onion
🔹Bitcointalk thread link: Here
🔹Fees:  from 0.5% to 3.99% + miners fee 0.0007 per one extra output address
⭐Name: MixerTumbler
🔹Clearnet link: https://mixertumbler.com
🔹Tor link: n/a
🔹Bitcointalk thread link: Here
🔹Fees: From 2% to 5% (+ Network fee)

[SaShiRaJaVu]

Which Mixer is next? Is this going to be the end of the Mixers? What really is going on here? I know the cyber security dudes are keeping a close watch on the Bitcoin mixing sites. But what really is going on?

If you watch what they have said regarding Best mixer raid is that, they started investigating within the first month of its inception and they did that because they choose wrong words in their website to promote their service"website explained to potential customers how mixing their cryptocurrency enabled them to circumvent anti-money-laundering policies." From what i understand those words made them the target for the authorities to go after them. If authorities spent the tax money to investigate they will come up with all the accusation they can and till now they have not provided any proof which illegal coins are washed through their service.

[Mpamaegbu]

Thanks for the list but I was actually looking at the mixers currently running their campaigns here. This development isn't palatable for the growth of Bitcoin.

[Lucius]

~snip~

It's not just a problem in mixers, but how and where they operate. EU has very harsh laws when it comes to terrorism and money laundering, and crypto mixers is something what they associate with exactly those things. Solution it to move in some less dangerous countries, and in some way protect yourself from such things. Although today the world is actually a big global village in which it is difficult to remain unnoticed.

The fact that one mixer closed is not something to be surprised (they are forced to that), but why BitBlender is make such move? Maybe they're just in fear of the same thing happening to them, or BestMixer and BitBlender have the same owner?

[milewilda]

The fact that one mixer closed is not something to be surprised (they are forced to that), but why BitBlender is make such move? Maybe they're just in fear of the same thing happening to them, or BestMixer and BitBlender have the same owner?

I dont think that they do have the same owner but well we dont actually know on whats behind.If you are a mixing service owner you would probably be alarmed if your competitors
is gradually being shut down due to legal reasons thats why its an inevitable thing for you not to think that you would be the next target.Therefore, you would act on advance rather than waiting
yourself to be included into the line.

I have read up some members posted about Bitmixer service on previous years and telling this line;

Hi all!
Despite the huge profit we earn, we are closing our activity. Let me explain why.

I'm bitcoin enthusiast since 2011. When we started this service I was convinced that any Bitcoin user has a natural right to privacy. I was totally wrong. Now I grasped that Bitcoin is transparent non-anonymous system by design. Blockchain is a great open book. I believe that Bitcoin will have a great future without dark market transactions. You may use Dash or Zerocoin if you want to buy some weed. Not Bitcoin.

I hope our decision will help to make Bitcoin ecosystem more clean and transparent. I hope our competitors will hear our message and will close their services too. Very soon this kind of activity will be considered as illegal in most of countries.

Cheers,
Bitmixer.IO

With this alone they do already have the experience so it isnt really bad to see this as a reference when building up a mixing site.
Next to be axed? Lets see on what site and i dont know why some people here are too salty with Chipmixer. lol

[figmentofmyass]

The fact that one mixer closed is not something to be surprised (they are forced to that), but why BitBlender is make such move? Maybe they're just in fear of the same thing happening to them, or BestMixer and BitBlender have the same owner?

i hope it doesn't suggest that bitblender was operating from europe. anyone operating a mixer or any non-AML compliant service should avoid running servers from the USA or europe. as we've seen with bestmixer, that's a sure way to get shut down and get your customer de-anonymized.

there's no telling how long the police were sniffing/mirroring bestmixer's servers before seizing everything, so even if they didn't keep logs, operating from these jurisdictions is quite dangerous for a mixer's customers.

If you are a mixing service owner you would probably be alarmed if your competitors
is gradually being shut down due to legal reasons thats why its an inevitable thing for you not to think that you would be the next target.Therefore, you would act on advance rather than waiting
yourself to be included into the line.

others will get the opposite idea: with competitors shutting down, there's lots and lots of profit left on the table for the taking, if only one could set up and operate a mixer correctly.....

[LeGaulois]

"

EU has very harsh laws when it comes to terrorism and money laundering"

Yeah like many countries btw, but they have no problem to host banks, the most used platforms when it comes to money laundering, whatever illegal activity.
I don't get why someone would run 2 mixers under 2 alias. Unless 1 would be used for an exit scam or something...
BitBlender.io is hosted in Malaysia

[Lucius]

LeGaulois, I did not know that BitBlender servers are located in Malaysia, and also I do not know how things work there when it comes to cryptocurrency. But that one mixer is closing down just after other is shut down by authorities in EU, can mean a few things.

- Owner of BitBlender did it in panic and fear, for no real reason.
- BestMixer&BitBlender are somehow connected.
- They get tip that they are next, so they decided to shut down all.

[Questat]

I hope no mixer will be shut down next, they are a big loss of the crypto space already, there are only few reputable mixers now and those 2 who are good mixers were shut down and have shut down respectively.

If we cannot prevent this from happening, I hope Chipmixer will stay alive, because it's one of the best mixers in the space.

Also, I'm hoping more mixers will be created so they will fill the loss of the mixers recently not operating anymore.

[AdolfinWolf]

Also, I'm hoping more mixers will be created so they will fill the loss of the mixers recently not operating anymore.

You can bet that that will happen.

Look at the darknet markets, even if there's a high risk involved in operating it, there are still people willing to take that risk. I don't think it's any different with bitcoin mixers..

But you have to ask yourself how trustworthy these new mixers really are when they're going to start popping up soon. (They aren't...)

And even if they put some BTC in escrow, and start a signature campaign, no one will know how trustworthy their no-logging policies really are until they're shutdown/seized. (Although that also goes for Chipmixer.)

[LeGaulois]

LeGaulois, I did not know that BitBlender servers are located in Malaysia, and also I do not know how things work there when it comes to cryptocurrency. But that one mixer is closing down just after other is shut down by authorities in EU, can mean a few things.

- Owner of BitBlender did it in panic and fear, for no real reason.
- BestMixer&BitBlender are somehow connected.
- They get tip that they are next, so they decided to shut down all.

Possible, BitBlender stopped his service for the reason you say. I'm pretty sure the reasons are also the same regarding BitMixer.io years back.
I believe he got something showing he's the next target, not really afraid of the Bestmixer case.

As for the hosting, any country can shut down a website if it's hosted in the said country but when a country wants to shut down a site hosted in another one, it's not that easy, since the country can just tell you to go out. You can imagine the answer if The US request to China to shut down a site...

[figmentofmyass]

And even if they put some BTC in escrow, and start a signature campaign, no one will know how trustworthy their no-logging policies really are until they're shutdown/seized. (Although that also goes for Chipmixer.)

i saw theymos mention something about "blinded bearer certificates", saying that if chipmixer used them, they'd be a superior mixing method vs monero and wasabi wallet's coinjoin. any idea what that would entail or if it's possible?

P.S.
If services like ChipMixer operated based on blinded bearer certificates, then they'd be in many ways superior to both of the above mixing methods. Someone should work on this.

[AdolfinWolf]

And even if they put some BTC in escrow, and start a signature campaign, no one will know how trustworthy their no-logging policies really are until they're shutdown/seized. (Although that also goes for Chipmixer.)

i saw theymos mention something about "blinded bearer certificates", saying that if chipmixer used them, they'd be a superior mixing method vs monero and wasabi wallet's coinjoin. any idea what that would entail or if it's possible?

P.S.
If services like ChipMixer operated based on blinded bearer certificates, then they'd be in many ways superior to both of the above mixing methods. Someone should work on this.

Yeah. i've looked into that and still am. It looks very promising, but i don't really understand it up to a level where i'd be able to confidently explain it in a fashionable way yet.

in short though, (as far as i understand it): It greatly removes the current trust factor you need to have in mixers regarding them not keeping logs, and replaces it with mathematical proof. You still need to entrust the service with your funds though. (but this risk can also be greatly reduced if the service used multisig with a number of trusted members. (say all/a select group of DT1 for example.)

There's some more discussion here; https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/5ksu3o/blinded_bearer_certificates/


I'm not sure if this is something chipmixer would be interested in implementing though, as once such a platform is developed, anyone and their mother could probably fork it & run their own version, which will probably result in a race to the bottom regarding fees for mixing & decentralization. (X trustworthy members will run their own bank with Y fees, lower than that of Chipmixer's (although chipmixer already has 0 fees, but you get the idea.), resulting in chipmixers "bank" getting less traction..)

And you probably need to pay the multisig signers a part of the mixing fee, which will just result in less fees for chipmixer themselves.

[theymos]

Yeah. i've looked into that and still am. It looks very promising, but i don't really understand it up to a level where i'd be able to confidently explain it in a fashionable way yet.

Blinded bearer certificates (bb-certs) are a very old and fairly simple technology, though for some reason it's never seen widespread use. It basically allows a "bank" to issue tokens which can be transferred 100% anonymously. These tokens could be something like "IOU 1 BTC", or they could indicate other things like "whoever holds this token is entitled to a bitcointalk.org copper membership". Unlike Monero or Wasabi, bb-cert transactions aren't merely mixing coins around to make the transaction graph (hopefully-)prohibitively difficult to follow: transaction histories simply can't exist at all. A bb-cert system would also be very scalable -- easily scaling to Visa-level volumes --, and with instant confirmation of transactions. The main downside is that it's fundamentally centralized, since each cert has to be issued by some entity (though this entity could be a multisig arrangement).

I wrote a little article here with several example use-cases. Note that since I wrote that:
 - I learned that Cloudflare implemented an anti-captcha bb-cert thing in the form of Privacy Pass, which is really cool, though it doesn't work perfectly yet and it seems that there isn't that much attention on this.
 - Someone started working on hookedin, which is a project for a complete bb-cert-based BTC payments system, though it's in the very early stages of development and isn't really usable yet.

I suggested bb-certs to ChipMixer in 2017, but they weren't at that time interested. (Not too surprising, since I wasn't offering to create it for them, an easy-to-deploy solution doesn't exist yet, and ideas are a dime a dozen.)

[CryptoBry]

First, it was Bestmixer services that got truncated and the signature advertorials ended abruptly in the 8th Week https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5125389.340, then a few days later

Bitblender opted out of running their signature campaigns https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5100568.msg51243240#msg51243240 in a dramatic manner yesterday.

Which Mixer is next? Is this going to be the end of the Mixers? What really is going on here? I know the cyber security dudes are keeping a close watch on the Bitcoin mixing sites. But what really is going on?

Yes, this is going to be the end of the bitcoin mixing service business as there are now many governmental regulatory bodies that are considering this type of business to be the tool for laundering money from illegal sources. Sad to say, against those in authorities, there is less we can do but to comply not unless we can go underground (where life can be so difficult, I guess). The one and only remaining standing in this industry is Chipmixer...let's see how things will turn out for this last guy on the ground.

[Lucius]

Yes, this is going to be the end of the bitcoin mixing service business as there are now many governmental regulatory bodies that are considering this type of business to be the tool for laundering money from illegal sources.

So you think there were only three mixers, and now only ChipMixer is remained? This is only true if you think of those mixers who had the signature campaign here on forum, but that you by any chance read few posts at the beginning of this thread you would know that there is more mixers who operate today.

I would not bet that mixers will end, it is almost in same category as all the claims that bitcoin is dead or will soon be. Mixers will only need to adapt, and by that I think they will need to move from places as Europe or USA and also by using things which theymos explained.

Here is list of all available mixers : 2019 List Bitcoin Mixers Bitcoin Tumblers Websites

[AdolfinWolf]

Yes, this is going to be the end of the bitcoin mixing service business as there are now many governmental regulatory bodies that are considering this type of business to be the tool for laundering money from illegal sources.

So you think there were only three mixers, and now only ChipMixer is remained? This is only true if you think of those mixers who had the signature campaign here on forum, but that you by any chance read few posts at the beginning of this thread you would know that there is more mixers who operate today.

I would not bet that mixers will end, it is almost in same category as all the claims that bitcoin is dead or will soon be. Mixers will only need to adapt, and by that I think they will need to move from places as Europe or USA and also by using things which theymos explained.

Here is list of all available mixers : 2019 List Bitcoin Mixers Bitcoin Tumblers Websites

Sure there are dozens more, but do you really trust those mixers with substantial amounts of funds? I know i would think twice before using them.

[LeGaulois]

...

People mixing a large number of bitcoins don't mix all in 1 transaction (even if they used the service several times before). They usually do it through multiple TXs. Once to test and then split the mix.
No matter the amount, if they don't know the site people should always do a 1st Tx before, at least to see if the site isn't a scam.

[Lucius]

Sure there are dozens more, but do you really trust those mixers with substantial amounts of funds? I know i would think twice before using them.

I have just referred to the statement of one member that what happened with two mixers recently, does not mean their complete disappearance of them. Of course, the number of mixers and their reliability are two completely different things, so I would even say that it would be good to think more then twice before using any of less known crypto mixers.

[LeGaulois]

Privacy is still a right or am I wrong?

Unfortunately, people don't understand the value of their own privacy. They think it's just a matter to getting their name/last name, DOB, address, credit card numbers, and things like that, private/hidden. But in reality, it goes deeper than that. If they don't fight/act, it's the whole life that is tracked, data mined, analyzed, etc. They will know everything (even supermarkets can currently know when your wife get her menstruations).

[stadus]

Privacy is still a right or am I wrong?

Unfortunately, people don't understand the value of their own privacy. They think it's just a matter to getting their name/last name, DOB, address, credit card numbers, and things like that, private/hidden. But in reality, it goes deeper than that. If they don't fight/act, it's the whole life that is tracked, data mined, analyzed, etc. They will know everything (even supermarkets can currently know when your wife get her menstruations).

MarkBTC11 seems a little bit confused, we are talking of privacy here, privacy is not a crime, therefore it's right.
If we can call mixer being part of the mixing industry, we have to understand that there are also illegal mixers and that's those who violated the law, legal mixers serves with the right purpose which is to give us the privacy we want.

[TryNinja]

MarkBTC11 seems a little bit confused, we are talking of privacy here, privacy is not a crime, therefore it's right.
If we can call mixer being part of the mixing industry, we have to understand that there are also illegal mixers and that's those who violated the law, legal mixers serves with the right purpose which is to give us the privacy we want.

What exactly makes a mixer "ilegal"? Which laws can they possibly break?

How can we separate a "legal" mixer from an "ilegal" one without tracking the users? Are you saying that people can only mix when they're not buying/selling drugs or doing other shady stuff?

[LeGaulois]

@TryNinja is right. I don't even know what is an illegal or legal mixer. And the funny thing is: which laws do they break? Money laundering? But the government don't want to consider Bitcoin as a legal currency!

Are there any illegal banks? Because I know for fact they participate in money laundering massively, it's well documented and can't be denied (some even accepted publicly) but what happened to them? A small fine at best and they're still here.

[AdolfinWolf]

@TryNinja is right. I don't even know what is an illegal or legal mixer. And the funny thing is: which laws do they break? Money laundering? But the government don't want to consider Bitcoin as a legal currency!

Are there any illegal banks? Because I know for fact they participate in money laundering massively, it's well documented and can't be denied (some even accepted publicly) but what happened to them? A small fine at best and they're still here.

Honestly, the only thing which you can call "laundering" about a mixer is that it layers the bitcoin, but as it isn't even recognized as a currency, i'd say this does not even come close to calling it "Money Laundering".

And; is layering money as a single procedure even illegal? I'm not so sure.

[buwaytress]

By definition, if there is no law that says it is wrong, then it is legal. As there exists no single jurisdiction that has ever specified that Bitcoin mixing is illegal, then mixing is legal anywhere in the known world. So yeah, Ninja's point stands... which law can mixers possibly break? Even if today someone wanted to make it illegal, they'd still have to draft the law, and then get it passed, that's going to take years.

And yeah, what would a legal mixer entail? And what would the point of making your mix legal be, if making it legal means you probably have to disclose a lot of information that would render your mix non-private?

[squatter]

By definition, if there is no law that says it is wrong, then it is legal. As there exists no single jurisdiction that has ever specified that Bitcoin mixing is illegal, then mixing is legal anywhere in the known world. So yeah, Ninja's point stands... which law can mixers possibly break?

That doesn't mean a mixer can't be shut down or the operators arrested. What happens at trial -- or whether the case ever goes to trial -- is a different question. There are no explicit laws about mixing, but court precedents haven't been set regarding whether mixing could be construed as violating various money laundering statutes. That was the implication Dutch police made with Bestmixer.

Unfortunately, police tend to shoot first and ask questions later. That's why Europol is only now "attempt[ing] to determine the extent to which criminal money laundering was used on the site."

[LeGaulois]

Unfortunately, police tend to shoot first and ask questions later. That's why Europol is only now "attempt[ing] to determine the extent to which criminal money laundering was used on the site."

They did it already. This article isn't giving much information, just the minimal to say the site is seized, but there is. They were after Bestmixer since last year and they have been able to estimate its volume transactions, etc.
So for months, maybe the beginning, people were using a broken mixer

[squatter]

Unfortunately, police tend to shoot first and ask questions later. That's why Europol is only now "attempt[ing] to determine the extent to which criminal money laundering was used on the site."

They did it already. This article isn't giving much information, just the minimal to say the site is seized, but there is. They were after Bestmixer since last year and they have been able to estimate its volume transactions, etc.
So for months, maybe the beginning, people were using a broken mixer

Sure, the site may have been compromised. Maybe it was even a honeypot. My point is that there were no criminal charges, not even any confirmed statements that criminal money laundering was occurring on Bestmixer. This shows that despite the lack of lawbreaking, a mixer can be shut down anyway, so this emphasis on the law is sort of pointless.

It reminds me of civil asset forfeiture in the US. The police come and seize all your property, then the burden is on you to prove a legitimate source of funds for all the property before you can claw any of it back. No criminal charges. They just shut you down, take everything you own, and tell you to bring your case to court. The Bestmixer admin isn't going to be filing a legal suit against the Dutch police anytime soon. Neither will any other mixer.

[stadus]

MarkBTC11 seems a little bit confused, we are talking of privacy here, privacy is not a crime, therefore it's right.
If we can call mixer being part of the mixing industry, we have to understand that there are also illegal mixers and that's those who violated the law, legal mixers serves with the right purpose which is to give us the privacy we want.

What exactly makes a mixer "ilegal"? Which laws can they possibly break?

How can we separate a "legal" mixer from an "ilegal" one without tracking the users? Are you saying that people can only mix when they're not buying/selling drugs or doing other shady stuff?

As far as I understand, illegal mixers are those who are close by the regulators, just recently this year we've seen Bestmixer was close, so I think they are doing some illegal activities like money laundering. So to think that there's still a lot of mixers existing until now, I believe they complied with any regulatory compliance they have to or they maybe they are not regulated yet.

For me, using a mixer is kinda risky as any time they can disappear that's why I don't transact a big amount of BTC in one time, just to minimize the risk.

[TryNinja]

As far as I understand, illegal mixers are those who are close by the regulators, just recently this year we've seen Bestmixer was close, so I think they are doing some illegal activities like money laundering. So to think that there's still a lot of mixers existing until now, I believe they complied with any regulatory compliance they have to or they maybe they are not regulated yet.

For me, using a mixer is kinda risky as any time they can disappear that's why I don't transact a big amount of BTC in one time, just to minimize the risk.

Sorry, but I don’t think you know what you are talking about.

Mixers complying with “regulatory compliances”? Regulated mixers? Illegal because they got shutdown?

A mixer receives coins and send coins. They don’t track, nor verify, nor “comply”. Do you even know what is the point of using a mixer? Why do they even exist?

What comes next? Mixers doing KYC? lol