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Author Topic: Where do you stand on abortion? Let's have a civil debate.  (Read 1346 times)
guigui371
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December 18, 2019, 07:13:00 PM
 #101

I will eventually become a father in 2020 or 2021. And if the doctors were to tell me that my fetus would be the bearer of a very extremely painful disease and if the option to abort the pregnancy was given to me I would take it.

firstly it might be best to get a female pregnant and then ask what she wishes to occur inside her body.
because a guy cant take an abortion option.. he isnt the one thats pregnant
he can only inform the woman of all the options and whats best. its ultimately her decision and no guy should be demanding she aborts or keeps it. its her decision

My wife is of the same opinion as me.


its not about defining a fetus as a parasite. its not about defining it as a helicopter or a cancer. its just defining it as not self sustainable independant human

this is why kids that are born are their parents responsibility and liability until they 'come of age' to be independant and make their own choices

unfortunetly this is why kids end up in gangs and used as street drug dealers, because they aint smart enough to make their own decisions and do whats right and because legally they are not accountable for their actions so end up getting used by dealer to be little hustlers because the kids wont get in trouble until they become juvenile age-adult
i say this because its an example of why even kids after birth dont really have their own rights and responsibilities fully and its their parents that are accountable and make the decisions for the kids best interest

Yes you are right, In my country you are not allowed (by law) to leave your children by themselve at any time if they are less than 14yo.
It even means they can't walk to school by themselves, if anything were to happen to the child (being run over), the full responsability of the parent would be engaged. Even leaving them in your own house 5min  to go get a loaf of bread next door if prohibited.
Quote
It is illegal to leave a child under the age of 14 years without reasonable provision for their care
But then, when do you define the cut-off limit where it is still "fine" to terminate a life due to X, Y or Z reason?  Is it before they "become of age" ?



However, imagine that you 8.5-month pregnant wife walks in the street and get punched in the wombs multiple times and lose the fetus.
That's a false equivalence. No one is performing abortions at 8.5 months.

True, I was refering to your point saying that a fetus isn't a person.
Hence killing someone else fetus would be a lesser crime than killing a person. And probably even a lesser crime than killing someone's cat / dog.




People should be allowed to do what they want of their body, they should be able to abort if they want to, however, I am of the opinion that a limit must be set to where abortion is only possible due to life-threatening to the mother and or the fetus and not just a change of mind.
Maybe it is 12 weeks, maybe 16 weeks, but definitely not 7-8-9 months !

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December 18, 2019, 08:26:58 PM
Merited by guigui371 (1)
 #102

Maybe it is 12 weeks, maybe 16 weeks, but definitely not 7-8-9 months !
The logical cut off is probably around 26 weeks, for a number of reasons.

Amniocentesis can't be performed until around 14-16 weeks, meaning we struggle to detect many genetic defects (many of which are not compatible with life) before that.

The anomaly scan is performed around 20-22 weeks, and this may be the first time we discover many congenital malformations, again many of which are not compatible with life.

The limit of viability is around 24-26 weeks, where a fetus has a 50% chance of survival (albeit often with major disabilities).

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December 19, 2019, 07:42:28 AM
 #103

My wife is of the same opinion as me.
firstly im glad your wife is in agreement. but you worded it as if it was purely your choice.
its her choice to which you have to agree(stay with her) or disagree(get a divorce). she still has the control
its you that has to agree or disagree to HER decision

But then, when do you define the cut-off limit where it is still "fine" to terminate a life due to X, Y or Z reason?  Is it before they "become of age" ?
there is no one rule for everything
life and awareness are 2 different things
take a 40yo person who is getting dementia. they become no longer aware and no longer capable of looking after themselves. so its not a case of not putting someone in as their carer/guardian because they passed some age limit of awareness

take a terminal cancer patient who is fully aware of his actions and wants to die. he should be allowed to, and not be forced to be put on life saving treatment

take a terminal cancer patient who is in a coma and unaware of his actions. should be kept on life support for 1000 years? instead someone who has care/guardian status of someone unable to make independant decisions has the power to make independant decisions

so for pregnancy, the MOTHERS has the power
obviously the decision should be on the best interests of the child, but also how it will affect the womens future

so when we know that at say 25 weeks a fetus wont survive if birthed or surgically removed(c-section) the fetus's best interest is not to be punished with 1000 years of life support because it doesnt even have developed lungs of its own
and wont have the brain capacity to learn and live an active independant life

however if a fetus gets to be the stage where science knows it has a good chance of a good active independant life. then it should be much harder to warrant an abortion. unless its proven that the child would negatively impact the mother beyond reasonable amount

it also impacts the debate of 'loss of life: murder or self defense'
loss of life is just loss of life but the reasons for it need to be defined

just calling all death murder is ignorant
death happens. its the why that counts and who gets to decide that counts

so if a mother knows for sure that the baby is going to cause more harm than benefit to the mothers life and negatively impact her life more than she can expect to cope with. then its self defense

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January 06, 2020, 10:34:00 AM
 #104

Quote
People should be allowed to do what they want of their body, they should be able to abort if they want to, however, I am of the opinion that a limit must be set to where abortion is only possible due to life-threatening to the mother and or the fetus and not just a change of mind.
Maybe it is 12 weeks, maybe 16 weeks, but definitely not 7-8-9 months !

I agree with that. But everything should be planned and monitored by your doctor. As a husband and father of two daughters, I would say that having some knowledge about the best ovulation test strips and women health overall. But that's just my opinion. Don't do anything life-threatening to you or people around you and everything will be fine.
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January 06, 2020, 12:28:23 PM
 #105

Quote
firstly im glad your wife is in agreement. but you worded it as if it was purely your choice.
its her choice to which you have to agree(stay with her) or disagree(get a divorce). she still has the control
its you that has to agree or disagree to HER decision

This is the same as saying, if your wife wants to kill your neighbour

its her choice to which you have to agree(stay with her) or disagree(get a divorce). she still has the control
its you that has to agree or disagree to HER decision

It's her who chooses to kill or not to kill the neighbour.

Quote
People should be allowed to do what they want of their body, they should be able to abort if they want to, however, I am of the opinion that a limit must be set to where abortion is only possible due to life-threatening to the mother and or the fetus and not just a change of mind.
Maybe it is 12 weeks, maybe 16 weeks, but definitely not 7-8-9 months !

The baby is not her body. They are 2 seperate bodies.

And if they were 1 body then your statement would be contradictory because "being allowed to do what you want" and "a limit must be set" does not align with eachother.

 
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January 06, 2020, 05:26:33 PM
 #106

It should be a decision of both father and mother of the child rather than only mother. I agree that most of the pain goes to a mother but if the two had done with each other's permission then this also should be taken with each other's permission.

 
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January 07, 2020, 02:43:26 AM
 #107

It should be a decision of both father and mother of the child rather than only mother. I agree that most of the pain goes to a mother but if the two had done with each other's permission then this also should be taken with each other's permission.

No, it shouldn't be because you shouldn't be able to legally agree to end someones life.

 
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January 07, 2020, 12:01:30 PM
Merited by UNOE (1)
 #108

Abortion is always a tricky subject in politics. There are an equally good amount of arguments that stem from both sides pro lifers and pro abortionists. I don't think it should really be that hard of a decision to please both parties. In my opinion it should go something like this, women who are forced into having children by some sort of sexual violence towards them, women who face complications that could cause the baby to become born deformed, and women are unfit or unstable financially should be some of the only reasonable arguments for obtaining abortions.
   Women shouldn't be able to abort because of sexual carelessness, "like oops, I'm pregnant" because they didn't properly use protection with their partners, Or because of narcissistic selfishness.
  I think if the pregnancy results from consensual sex and it was just an honest mistake, then the father should have a stake in the claim, it shouldn't just be the women who get to decide on their own, since it takes two to tangle.
   Just my two cents!

 
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January 09, 2020, 02:53:01 PM
 #109

I don't think the pro-murder gang would ever accept those terms.
They want recreational abortion.
It has nothing to do with rape or risky pregnancy.

 
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January 09, 2020, 05:02:22 PM
 #110

Its better I say I don't stand but would prefer to look at each situation as it presents itself as I see myself changing if some situations that beyond human comprehension should happen.

For example, in a case where the pregnancy is due to philandering activities then abortion should not be tolerated but in situations where it poses a threat to the life of the mother or its a case of rape which the victim is not ready to keep, then I would support an abortion for it the pregnancy to be terminated.

 
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January 09, 2020, 05:13:05 PM
 #111

I don't think the pro-murder gang would ever accept those terms.
They want recreational abortion.
Absolutely. Everyone who is pro-choice is pro-murder. Further, they all want to ban condoms and other contraception, because abortion should be the only necessary contraception method. Roll Eyes

Or maybe your ridiculous hyperbole does nothing to help the debate other than to prove that no one should take what you say seriously.

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January 10, 2020, 11:57:37 AM
 #112

I already consider it as murder so I am against it,
We should be ready for the responsibility you couldn't just do it and kill it if you aren't ready that is why wehave contraceptive's to prevent having a baby while you are not yet ready.
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January 10, 2020, 12:50:44 PM
 #113

Honestly for me the only people who has a say on the matter is the baby's parents. If the parents decide to abort their baby due to poor financial status then go for it. I hate prolife people, if that's what they think they are, just blabbering about it but doesn't do any action to prove their statement. I mean c'mon if you truly hate it why not fund an org to adopt and protect those innocent babies. This is only my opinion.

It always depend on the parents of course but imagine if a baby was born then the future it would be the president or have a good future? How was that? Abortion was a crime because you'd kill a person. Even if it is good from overpopulation, it was not good for us to do that.

Okay let's consider those possibilities, but have you consider if that those parents cannot raise a child due to financial crisis that's why they chose abortion. If they can't even feed themselves then how do you expect for them to raise a child properly ?

I've seen children on the streets asking for food or money cause their parents couldn't provide those things, they couldn't even go to school cause they need to earn for a living. For me its better to die than suffer a life like this.

People who doesn't agree with abortion should prove that their statement is correct and reach out to those children who are in really poor conditions.

 
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January 10, 2020, 12:58:10 PM
 #114

Not my words but interesting:

"Our individual DNA process is a continuous process, unfurling from the moment of conception. There is no later stage of our existence that is not dependent on earlier stages of our existence, as a continuous entity in space and time. Our DNA process is continuous in both space and time from the moment of our conception, to the moment of our death.

Acceptance, rationalization of the termination of an already unfurling DNA process, once invited to unfurl, requires the irrational acceptance of temporal bias. In the continuum of space/time, that continuously unfurling DNA process is not a complete individual human 'yet.' That is because we are not regarding that human over the complete time-space continuum that it exists in. But, the only thing required to see the complete individual human is the passage of time.

We are of course much more than our unfurling DNA processes, but whatever we are, the basis of our life, cannot exist without the unmolested possession of that unfurling DNA process.

The fetus is a concrete example of a new individual DNA process, unfurling. There is and has been a conflict to define the most fundamental aspect of an individual -- the term of its existence. The resolution of this conflict -- between the newest individual and others -- is resolved by others, based on whatever philosophical or moral guidance they bring to the conflict. The rationalizations in support of abortion boil down to the convenience of the others, based mostly on a shaky temporal bias that is permitted to stand, unquestioned"

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January 10, 2020, 06:22:24 PM
 #115

I don't think the pro-murder gang would ever accept those terms.
They want recreational abortion.
Absolutely. Everyone who is pro-choice is pro-murder. Further, they all want to ban condoms and other contraception, because abortion should be the only necessary contraception method. Roll Eyes

Or maybe your ridiculous hyperbole does nothing to help the debate other than to prove that no one should take what you say seriously.

Just because it doesn't align with your interests it doesn't make it false.
How is it a hyperbole?
Would you or would you not accept abortion being legal only in case of rape and when the mothers life is in danger?
If your answer is no then my statement is 100% correct.

Quote
Which group is most qualified to answer the question "When does a human's life begin?"
Eighty-seven percent said the beginning of life question is important to the abortion issue, while 84 percent agreed that Americans deserve to know when human life begins to be informed about abortion. As for who should decide when life begins, 81 percent chose biologists over religious leaders (7 percent), voters (7 percent), philosophers (4 percent), and Supreme Court justices (2 percent).

Quote
So Jacobs compiled a sample of 5,502 biologists from 1,058 academic institutions (he reached out to 62,469 biologists and 7,383 participated in the survey, but only 5,502 answered the pertinent questions). The biologists predominantly identified as non-religious (63 percent), liberal (89 percent and 11 percent conservative), Democratic (92 percent), and pro-choice (85 percent, only 15 were pro-life). The sample included biologists who were born in 86 countries around the world.

A broad consensus of those biologists affirmed each of three statements representing the view that "a human's life begins at fertilization" (75 percent-91 percent). Overall, 95 percent affirmed the view that human life begins at conception.

Quote
A broad consensus of those biologists affirmed each of three statements representing the view that "a human's life begins at fertilization" (75 percent-91 percent). Overall, 95 percent affirmed the view that human life begins at conception.

Jacobs inquired about two implicit statements and one explicit statement about the issue. A full 91 percent agreed with the statement, "The end product of mammalian fertilization is a fertilized egg (‘zygote’), a new mammalian organism in the first stage of its species' life cycle with its species' genome." Another 88 percent affirmed the statement, "The development of a mammal begins with fertilization, a process by which the spermatozoon from the male and the oocyte from the female unite to give rise to a new organism, the zygote."

Finally, Jacobs presented the explicit statement, "In developmental biology, fertilization marks the beginning of a human's life since that process produces an organism with a human genome that has begun to develop in the first stage of the human life cycle." Three-quarters (75 percent) of biologists agreed with that statement.

https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=3211703

 
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January 10, 2020, 06:29:31 PM
 #116

The above article is very interesting <a href="https://thepackageshub.com/ufone-net-packages/"> ufone net packages </a>

I would recommend everyone against opening this link since it's his first post and the link itself doesn't seem related to the subject.

 
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January 10, 2020, 07:57:39 PM
 #117

How is it a hyperbole?
You don't think the phrases "recreational abortion" and "pro-murder" are hyperbolic? Roll Eyes

-snip-
The rest of your argument is entirely missing the point. Of course a fertilized egg is alive. So are unfertilized egg cells and sperm. So are all your skin cells that you wash off every day. So are the organs of the deceased which we remove and carry in a box to transplant in to someone else.

All those things are alive. None of them are a person.

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January 11, 2020, 07:08:42 AM
 #118

 Firstly, "a girl has the right to abort a baby for whatever reason they like as long as it's in womb" is a misconception the time period. Most abortions are performed  by ≤13 weeks' gestation.
Secondly, who are you to say a girl what she should do with her body? Pro-choice King?
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January 11, 2020, 01:03:00 PM
Last edit: January 11, 2020, 01:14:31 PM by UNOE
 #119

How is it a hyperbole?
You don't think the phrases "recreational abortion" and "pro-murder" are hyperbolic? Roll Eyes

-snip-
The rest of your argument is entirely missing the point. Of course a fertilized egg is alive. So are unfertilized egg cells and sperm. So are all your skin cells that you wash off every day. So are the organs of the deceased which we remove and carry in a box to transplant in to someone else.

All those things are alive. None of them are a person.

No, I don't think it's a hyperbole.

Sperm,eggs, or skin are not human life.
Look at the third question in the research paper again

Quote
In developmental biology, fertilization marks the beginning of a human's life since that process produces an organism with a human genome that has begun to develop in the first stage of the human life cycle." Three-quarters (75 percent) of biologists agreed with that statement.

What is elimination of human life if not murder?

It's not a hyperbole, it's a logical sequence. "Pro-choice" is pro-murder. You have been mislead it's not murder, but we've established it's elimination of human life. What is it then?
And it's not your fault for thinking that, because everyone is shoving selective information down your throat through the media constantly. You had no help but to think otherwise.
But if you choose to ignore the data presented to you, only then you can be blamed.

Here's the recreational thing.

Quote
When they became pregnant, 60 (70.6%) were using ineffective methods or were not using any contraceptive method. Both the participant and the spouse wanted the abortion in 68 (80%) cases.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10794046

Quote
In 2014, about half (51%) of abortion patients in the United States reported that they had used a contraceptive method in the month they became pregnant, according to a new analysis by Guttmacher researcher Rachel Jones.

So, only 51% of abortion patients used contraceptive method in the month they became pregnant. In the whole month! 51% of them didn't use contraceptives at least once in the whole month!
People aren't using contraceptive methods because they're taught abortion is just dumping a clump of cells.  They rely on abortion if they accidently get someone pregnant so they don't try to stop pregnancy happening at all.
And there are people pushing for free abortions to make people use contraceptives even less, since now, the only thing making them be careful is the 500$ price of the abortion.

 
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January 11, 2020, 07:43:52 PM
 #120

Sperm,eggs, or skin are not human life.
By whose definition? Yours?

A skin cells contains all the same genetic material that a fertilized egg does. It also contains the exact same ability to think, feel, interact, feel pain, or indeed feel anything at all - i.e. none. We can also take the genetic material from a skin cell, place it in the right conditions, and use it to grow an entire organism. Why is one human life and the other isn't?

Quote
In developmental biology, fertilization marks the beginning of a human's life since that process produces an organism with a human genome that has begun to develop in the first stage of the human life cycle." Three-quarters (75 percent) of biologists agreed with that statement.
Of course they did. I agree with that statement. It doesn't change the fact that a fertilized egg is no more a human being than a skin cell is.

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