"Black Markets Show How Socialists Can't Overturn Economic Laws"

[TECSHARE]

https://mises.org/wire/black-markets-show-how-socialists-cant-overturn-economic-laws

This is a great article that goes over a lot of history of Communist and Socialist theory application, and the failures and disasters that result, as well as the laws of economics that push through these irrational attempts at trying to change the laws of nature and humanity.

[1714105064]

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[1714105064]

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[fatnet]

black markets also show that the states are not essential for market to work well, extraterritorial jurisdictions are enough

[BitBustah]

What about the environmental and health disasters caused by capitalism?  I still hold the opinion that socialism is the superior system for mankind.

[fatnet]

What about the environmental

fun fact: if the lake is private, you wont be able to pollute this lake, cuz the owner of this lake would destroy you for that.

and health disasters

do any socialist countries solve the healthcare problem?
- maybe soviet union?
- nah, 30% of the chambers in 1980s in soviet union had no access to water supply
- maybe cuba?
- yeah, cuba's healthcare is that great, that ppl from cuba swim on rafts to florida to get a surgery/stomatology for even american prices
- vietnam, china?
- both countries are not socialist(despite their healthcare is still shit), china has succeed market reforms in 90s, vietnam has succeed market reforms in 00s
- north korea, cambodia?
- lol
- how about sweden/norway/finland?
- the only thing which connects socialism and scandinavian countries are huge taxes

I still hold the opinion that socialism is the superior system for mankind.

yeah, you've got proofs, you've got historical experience, but u still hold your opinion, very nice, bernie sanders 2020

[BitBustah]

"As per 2019 Happiness Report, Finland is the happiest country in the world,"


Capitalism is working out real great America, maybe you should take a look at the homeless population in USA and the ridiculous healthcare/education costs.

[KingScorpio]

https://mises.org/wire/black-markets-show-how-socialists-cant-overturn-economic-laws

This is a great article that goes over a lot of history of Communist and Socialist theory application, and the failures and disasters that result, as well as the laws of economics that push through these irrational attempts at trying to change the laws of nature and humanity.

but socialist could dominate whole world economy with their currency, as whole rest of world wouldnt trust each other.

[fatnet]

"As per 2019 Happiness Report, Finland is the happiest country in the world,"


Capitalism is working out real great America, maybe you should take a look at the homeless population in USA and the ridiculous healthcare/education costs.

america is not laissez-faire since 1860s lol

[BitBustah]

America is the worst of both worlds, has all the negatives of capitalism with the side benefit of not even being a totally free market, it is very restrictive to anyone in poverty because everything needs a license, degree, or some type of certification which requires money and keeps people poor.

[fatnet]

America is the worst of both worlds, has all the negatives of capitalism with the side benefit of not even being a totally free market, it is very restrictive to anyone in poverty because everything needs a license, degree, or some type of certification which requires money and keeps people poor.

trump, remove copyright

[Carlton Banks]

America is the worst of both worlds, has all the negatives of capitalism with the side benefit of not even being a totally free market, it is very restrictive to anyone in poverty because everything needs a license, degree, or some type of certification which requires money and keeps people poor.

there's a different word for that, it's called: __________

(i.e. US and the west are NOT particularly capitalist at all)



My attitude is that socialism can work; on a VERY small scale. Your house. Because you can trust the people you live with to subsidise each other, the practical reality is you have little choice. And if even that goes awry, the impact is contained and small. As soon as you expand the scope of socialism, the exact same parasites that we have abusing an ostensibly capitalist system will commandeer positions of power, simply look at how that happened everywhere socialism is attempted.

But it sounds like you need to have it proven to you before you abandon the concept. There's already a problem; if you're using Bitcoin, you're already a capitalist, as you own individualistic capital. Why didn't you split all your BTC with your comrades? You could do it like this: open a multi-sig wallet, where a majority of the holders is the spending threshold. Why aren't you doing it? It's because you're not a socialist, however else you're deluding yourself.

[Cnut237]

My position is generally very left-wing, I am strongly in favour of equality of opportunity and a much lower level of inequality both within societies and across the world. Equally I find the excesses of capitalism abhorrent, the multi-billionaires who don't pay any tax whilst the poorest often have to work several jobs just to stay alive.

But... I think that Socialism is becoming irrelevant as a concept. The whole thing is based upon the power of the workers. Unionise, strike for better conditions etc. Technology is rapidly superseding that. We hear a lot about automation. The tech revolutions we've had already have meant huge job losses in one sector, but new opportunities somewhere else. Industrialisation meant we needed far fewer farm workers - but more factory workers. The computer revolution meant we need fewer factory workers but more jobs appeared in the service sector. The thing with the current wave of automation (with AI playing an increasing role as well) is that there is nowhere left to go, no new sectors will arise where humans can perform the work better than machines can. This will lead to the complete disempowerment of the working class, and the loss of the big bargaining chip of Socialism.

Not sure what the outcome will be, probably some form of UBI, but the fact is that whether we like it or not, Socialism as a concept is becoming rapidly outdated.

[fatnet]

America is the worst of both worlds, has all the negatives of capitalism with the side benefit of not even being a totally free market, it is very restrictive to anyone in poverty because everything needs a license, degree, or some type of certification which requires money and keeps people poor.

there's a different word for that, it's called: __________

(i.e. US and the west are NOT particularly capitalist at all)



My attitude is that socialism can work; on a VERY small scale. Your house. Because you can trust the people you live with to subsidise each other, the practical reality is you have little choice. And if even that goes awry, the impact is contained and small. As soon as you expand the scope of socialism, the exact same parasites that we have abusing an ostensibly capitalist system will commandeer positions of power, simply look at how that happened everywhere socialism is attempted.

But it sounds like you need to have it proven to you before you abandon the concept. There's already a problem; if you're using Bitcoin, you're already a capitalist, as you own individualistic capital. Why didn't you split all your BTC with your comrades? You could do it like this: open a multi-sig wallet, where a majority of the holders is the spending threshold. Why aren't you doing it? It's because you're not a socialist, however else you're deluding yourself.

it can work in that small scale only cuz of voluntary being in that small scale fraction.
if you are the real not retarded socialist, who wants ppl to live good under his leadership(all the people tbh), you should require panarchy, cuz its the only way your socialist goverment would survive

[fatnet]

My position is generally very left-wing, I am strongly in favour of equality of opportunity and a much lower level of inequality both within societies and across the world. Equally I find the excesses of capitalism abhorrent, the multi-billionaires who don't pay any tax whilst the poorest often have to work several jobs just to stay alive.

But... I think that Socialism is becoming irrelevant as a concept. The whole thing is based upon the power of the workers. Unionise, strike for better conditions etc. Technology is rapidly superseding that. We hear a lot about automation. The tech revolutions we've had already have meant huge job losses in one sector, but new opportunities somewhere else. Industrialisation meant we needed far fewer farm workers - but more factory workers. The computer revolution meant we need fewer factory workers but more jobs appeared in the service sector. The thing with the current wave of automation (with AI playing an increasing role as well) is that there is nowhere left to go, no new sectors will arise where humans can perform the work better than machines can. This will lead to the complete disempowerment of the working class, and the loss of the big bargaining chip of Socialism.

Not sure what the outcome will be, probably some form of UBI, but the fact is that whether we like it or not, Socialism as a concept is becoming rapidly outdated.

yeah, leftism is irrelevant classical leftism is dead, if you are the leftist, who is not gonna get all to the gulags, and give as many taxes as fuck, you should require panarchy for ppl who dont want to live under socialist hell your government would be able to exit your tyrany leadership
note: i mean panarchy(focj, polystate), not anarchy

[KingScorpio]

America is the worst of both worlds, has all the negatives of capitalism with the side benefit of not even being a totally free market, it is very restrictive to anyone in poverty because everything needs a license, degree, or some type of certification which requires money and keeps people poor.

its supposed to achieve 2 tings, first, make poor people available as proletarians to the capitalist rich,

support huge established structures.

it has benefits and negatives.

equity can also be obtained through stocks.

it sucks however to capitalists who want to overthrow the system and controll the currency on their own

[TheCoinGrabber]

But it sounds like you need to have it proven to you before you abandon the concept. There's already a problem; if you're using Bitcoin, you're already a capitalist, as you own individualistic capital. Why didn't you split all your BTC with your comrades? You could do it like this: open a multi-sig wallet, where a majority of the holders is the spending threshold. Why aren't you doing it? It's because you're not a socialist, however else you're deluding yourself.

Like they would do that. Most pro-socialist people I've met reeks of a "what's mine is mine and what's your's is mine" mentality. It's similar to people asking their government to open their borders and let foreigners in but wouldn't spend or house those foreigners.

[fatnet]

America is the worst of both worlds, has all the negatives of capitalism with the side benefit of not even being a totally free market, it is very restrictive to anyone in poverty because everything needs a license, degree, or some type of certification which requires money and keeps people poor.

its supposed to achieve 2 tings, first, make poor people available as proletarians to the capitalist rich,

support huge established structures.

it has benefits and negatives.

equity can also be obtained through stocks.

it sucks however to capitalists who want to overthrow the system and controll the currency on their own

leftist logic:
yeah-yeah, market produces monopolies which is bad cuz it centralizes a lot of power in one hangs. LET'S CENTRALIZE EVERYTHING TO THE OFFICIALS HANDS!

[coins4commies]

I wanted to get into this discussion but everyone in it is mischaracterizing the left and what the left wants so I have no argument here.  No one wants the things you guys are arguing against. 

All I can say is go read the platforms of leftist and socialist parties around the world. 

If you think high taxes is the only thing socialist about Scandinavia, then you need to look more into their policies as well.   

[TECSHARE]

I wanted to get into this discussion but everyone in it is mischaracterizing the left and what the left wants so I have no argument here.  No one wants the things you guys are arguing against. 

All I can say is go read the platforms of leftist and socialist parties around the world. 

If you think high taxes is the only thing socialist about Scandinavia, then you need to look more into their policies as well.   

You keep repeating this phrase over and over again "no one wants etc". Your intent is completely irrelevant. No one wants to become an addict junkie when they do their first line of cocaine or their first injection of heroin. No one wants to become morbidly obese. No one wants PTSD when they sign up for the military, but it is a fact there are well known circumstances that tend to lead to those negative results. What you want is irrelevant. What is relevant is your ideology is flawed and results in these negative consequences no matter how much you wish them away and imagine it to be something other than what it is, a failure.

[coins4commies]

nope.  no one has the flawed ideology you claim I have.  No one wants the very things you claim cause the consequences.  100% strawman.

[TECSHARE]

nope.  no one has the flawed ideology you claim I have.  No one wants the very things you claim cause the consequences.  100% strawman.

So your retort is to repeat yourself.  Good show Captain Postmodern. The things that cause the consequences are in fact the things you advocate for.