The Lightning Network FAQ

[BlackHatCoiner]

Nothing definite, but do we see the many people in the community stop using onchain payments, and start using the Lightning Network?

From those I talk, yeah. They do use the lightning network.

Have we seen exchanges start adopting Lightning, instead of listing more “faster” shitcoins?

post #1044.

What services/merchants do you Lightning for, and how much of Lightning was used for those services/merchants compared to onchain payments and shitcoins?

Is it just me who has never bought a single shitcoin? Not just for purchasing something. Generally, to just have it.

Lightning will realize its utility, but I believe it might not be for faster/cheaper payments.

It's much faster and cheaper than any other shitcoin. Transaction routing takes bunch of seconds. As for the cost of transaction, it's ridiculously cheap.

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[Rath_]

Is there any specific reason you recommend me c-lightning? Is it possibly simpler than LND? I'm a person who has not much free time these days and wants to experience with the lightning network whenever he finds some. I'd definitely want the most suitable or easiest to use.

C-lightning is less resource intensive and it's really easy to use, even if you want to try experimental features like dual-funding. I also like that you can easily open multiple channels in a single transaction. On the other hand, you will me missing out on stuff like Sphinx Chat, ThunderHub, Lightning Terminal, Zap Wallet and BlueWallet integration. You should do a thorough research so that you don't blame yourself later. Carlton Banks wrote a nice post about LND vs c-lightning.

Also, if I want to use c-lightning, why do I have to uninstall LND?

You don't have to, but you might not want to keep any unused packages related to it on your system.

Does that work only for US purchases?

Yes. See below.

Why did my purchase with a Moon Visa® Prepaid Card fail? [...] 4) The merchant may not be based in the US. Moon does not support payments to non-US based merchants.

Have we seen exchanges start adopting Lightning, instead of listing more “faster” shitcoins?

Yes. https://github.com/theDavidCoen/LightningExchanges

[BlackHatCoiner]

Another time that I'm utterly discouraged to continue...


I've done exactly what Rapsibolt says in here.

Code:

$ cd /tmp
$ wget https://github.com/lightningnetwork/lnd/releases/download/v0.14.1-beta/lnd-linux-arm64-v0.14.1-beta.tar.gz
$ wget https://github.com/lightningnetwork/lnd/releases/download/v0.14.1-beta/manifest-v0.14.1-beta.txt
$ wget https://github.com/lightningnetwork/lnd/releases/download/v0.14.1-beta/manifest-guggero-v0.14.1-beta.sig
$ curl https://keybase.io/guggero/pgp_keys.asc | gpg --import
$ gpg --verify manifest-guggero-v0.14.1-beta.sig manifest-v0.14.1-beta.txt
$ sha256sum --check manifest-v0.14.1-beta.txt --ignore-missing
$ tar -xzf lnd-linux-arm64-v0.14.1-beta.tar.gz
$ sudo install -m 0755 -o root -g root -t /usr/local/bin lnd-linux-arm64-v0.14.1-beta/*

Once I run:

Code:

$ lnd --version

I get:

Code:

-bash: /usr/local/bin/lnd: cannot execute binary file: Exec format error

Does this have to do with my previous installation of v0.13.1-beta? How will I completely get rid of LND without having to wipe up the drive as n0nce suggested?

[Wind_FURY]

Nothing definite, but do we see the many people in the community stop using onchain payments, and start using the Lightning Network?

From those I talk, yeah. They do use the lightning network.

How many of them have you talked to?

Have we seen exchanges start adopting Lightning, instead of listing more “faster” shitcoins?

post #1044.

What services/merchants do you Lightning for, and how much of Lightning was used for those services/merchants compared to onchain payments and shitcoins?

Is it just me who has never bought a single shitcoin? Not just for purchasing something. Generally, to just have it.

I’m just asking a question. We see shitcoins accepted everywhere, especially online casinos that accept cryptocurrencies, but Lightning acceptance is low.

Lightning will realize its utility, but I believe it might not be for faster/cheaper payments.

It's much faster and cheaper than any other shitcoin. Transaction routing takes bunch of seconds. As for the cost of transaction, it's ridiculously cheap.

I never said it wasn’t currently cheap, or fast. Although, it’s debatable if it could be that way forever, but that’s for another topic. I’m merely saying that Lightning might find other “more important” use cases.

[LoyceV]

We see shitcoins accepted everywhere, especially online casinos that accept cryptocurrencies, but Lightning acceptance is low.

For exchanges, I assume their business model requires free deposits and expensive withdrawals. That discourages people from taking their funds out of the website. For casinos, I kinda just assume the same! Why have someone withdraw 50,000 sat in LN if you can make him gamble more to reach the minimum on-chain withdrawal amount and pay a much higher withdrawal fee?
Fast and cheap withdrawals simply aren't in the interest of many businesses.

Or maybe I'm just wrong here, because cheap and fast deposits would totally be in their interest. It would be very nice if some casino owners can chip in on their reasoning

[BlackHatCoiner]

How many of them have you talked to?

I don't know, I don't count the people I talk to. I suspect that most of the ChipMixer participants use the lightning network.

I’m just asking a question. We see shitcoins accepted everywhere, especially online casinos that accept cryptocurrencies, but Lightning acceptance is low.

I don't play on casinos, so I don't have much opinion towards it. I usually buy from Bitrefill which also accepts shitcoins. To clarify:  I don't say that shitcoins aren't a thing, I just think that the lightning network is a more preferable solution and that most of the Bitcoiners use it.

I see a lot of supports from some nice Twitter accounts too.

[dkbit98]

One question for people who are using LN for some time:
Does anyone know what is the best privacy oriented Lighting Network wallet, and if anything like this even exist?
I heard that Wasabi wallet created 1 BTC Privacy Research Grant for making wallet like this that should last until September 2022, but I don't know about any alternative.

[psycodad]

<snip>

Once I run:

Code:

$ lnd --version

I get:

Code:

-bash: /usr/local/bin/lnd: cannot execute binary file: Exec format error

Does this have to do with my previous installation of v0.13.1-beta? How will I completely get rid of LND without having to wipe up the drive as n0nce suggested?

No, I don't think so. You downloaded binaries for arm64 but possibly are running a 32bit ARM platform. The error you get suggests sth like that.

You'll need to find out which release you need exactly for the RPI you have at hand. Or tell us which RPI model you exactly have so we might help.

HTH

[BlackHatCoiner]

No, I don't think so. You downloaded binaries for arm64 but possibly are running a 32bit ARM platform. The error you get suggests sth like that.

You'll need to find out which release you need exactly for the RPI you have at hand. Or tell us which RPI model you exactly have so we might help.

HTH

Code:

admin@raspibolt:/tmp $ cat /proc/cpuinfo
processor       : 0
model name      : ARMv7 Processor rev 3 (v7l)
BogoMIPS        : 270.00
Features        : half thumb fastmult vfp edsp neon vfpv3 tls vfpv4 idiva idivt vfpd32 lpae evtstrm crc32
CPU implementer : 0x41
CPU architecture: 7
CPU variant     : 0x0
CPU part        : 0xd08
CPU revision    : 3

processor       : 1
model name      : ARMv7 Processor rev 3 (v7l)
BogoMIPS        : 270.00
Features        : half thumb fastmult vfp edsp neon vfpv3 tls vfpv4 idiva idivt vfpd32 lpae evtstrm crc32
CPU implementer : 0x41
CPU architecture: 7
CPU variant     : 0x0
CPU part        : 0xd08
CPU revision    : 3

processor       : 2
model name      : ARMv7 Processor rev 3 (v7l)
BogoMIPS        : 270.00
Features        : half thumb fastmult vfp edsp neon vfpv3 tls vfpv4 idiva idivt vfpd32 lpae evtstrm crc32
CPU implementer : 0x41
CPU architecture: 7
CPU variant     : 0x0
CPU part        : 0xd08
CPU revision    : 3

processor       : 3
model name      : ARMv7 Processor rev 3 (v7l)
BogoMIPS        : 270.00
Features        : half thumb fastmult vfp edsp neon vfpv3 tls vfpv4 idiva idivt vfpd32 lpae evtstrm crc32
CPU implementer : 0x41
CPU architecture: 7
CPU variant     : 0x0
CPU part        : 0xd08
CPU revision    : 3

Hardware        : BCM2711
Revision        : c03114
Serial          : 10000000f125188c
Model           : Raspberry Pi 4 Model B Rev 1.4

[psycodad]

No, I don't think so. You downloaded binaries for arm64 but possibly are running a 32bit ARM platform. The error you get suggests sth like that.

You'll need to find out which release you need exactly for the RPI you have at hand. Or tell us which RPI model you exactly have so we might help.

HTH

Code:

admin@raspibolt:/tmp $ cat /proc/cpuinfo
processor       : 0
model name      : ARMv7 Processor rev 3 (v7l)
BogoMIPS        : 270.00
Features        : half thumb fastmult vfp edsp neon vfpv3 tls vfpv4 idiva idivt vfpd32 lpae evtstrm crc32
CPU implementer : 0x41
CPU architecture: 7
CPU variant     : 0x0
CPU part        : 0xd08
CPU revision    : 3

processor       : 1
model name      : ARMv7 Processor rev 3 (v7l)
BogoMIPS        : 270.00
Features        : half thumb fastmult vfp edsp neon vfpv3 tls vfpv4 idiva idivt vfpd32 lpae evtstrm crc32
CPU implementer : 0x41
CPU architecture: 7
CPU variant     : 0x0
CPU part        : 0xd08
CPU revision    : 3

processor       : 2
model name      : ARMv7 Processor rev 3 (v7l)
BogoMIPS        : 270.00
Features        : half thumb fastmult vfp edsp neon vfpv3 tls vfpv4 idiva idivt vfpd32 lpae evtstrm crc32
CPU implementer : 0x41
CPU architecture: 7
CPU variant     : 0x0
CPU part        : 0xd08
CPU revision    : 3

processor       : 3
model name      : ARMv7 Processor rev 3 (v7l)
BogoMIPS        : 270.00
Features        : half thumb fastmult vfp edsp neon vfpv3 tls vfpv4 idiva idivt vfpd32 lpae evtstrm crc32
CPU implementer : 0x41
CPU architecture: 7
CPU variant     : 0x0
CPU part        : 0xd08
CPU revision    : 3

Hardware        : BCM2711
Revision        : c03114
Serial          : 10000000f125188c
Model           : Raspberry Pi 4 Model B Rev 1.4

Great, thanks. So you would need an ARMv7 release/binaries.

You might want to try this one:

https://github.com/lightningnetwork/lnd/releases/download/v0.14.1-beta/lnd-linux-armv7-v0.14.1-beta.tar.gz

Let us know if that works better.

HTH

[n0nce]

However, these install guides have you install and configure many things, like getting packages that you won't need anymore after switching to c-lightning, such as go itself. That's why me personally, I'd reinstall the node. Backup the blockchain, wipe the drive, and start off clean, then put back the blockchain and Core will find it again; lastly install C-Lightning and you're good

Is there any specific reason you recommend me c-lightning? Is it possibly simpler than LND? I'm a person who has not much free time these days and wants to experience with the lightning network whenever he finds some. I'd definitely want the most suitable or easiest to use.

Which one is more suitable for you (or easier to use) depends on a lot of factors, like Rath said. For me, it was important that the software would run efficiently and quickly, which is one thing C can just do better than Go at the moment. On the other hand, I'm missing out on Zap for example, which is a bit of a pity, because I don't think there are similar clients that allow you to kind of use your node from other machines for day-to-day transactions. Well, maybe through RTL, but it's not really focused towards that; instead more on maintaining and administering the node. In general, it seems there is more software support for LND. Another example would be BlueWallet, which allows to connect only to LND instances (through LNDHub).

How will I completely get rid of LND without having to wipe up the drive as n0nce suggested?

I'd like to ask the other way round: what's the big issue with wiping & reinstalling? I know, it seems unintuitive in the beginning, but from my experience with these kinds of things, if you have a dedicated machine essentially running one or two pieces of software (like just Bitcoin Core + Lightning; or just one webserver - these sorts of projects), it's most of the time fastest when there's an issue or major change / update that doesn't work out of the box, to just backup whichever data is essential (usually very little), reinstall and you're back up online in a very short time.

I recently reinstalled one of my own nodes (my main personal node) due to switching out the drive and followed my own instructions; it went surprisingly fast (even though I often reinstall systems if needed, as explained).

One question for people who are using LN for some time:
Does anyone know what is the best privacy oriented Lighting Network wallet, and if anything like this even exist?
I heard that Wasabi wallet created 1 BTC Privacy Research Grant for making wallet like this that should last until September 2022, but I don't know about any alternative.

Well, best privacy would be running your own Bitcoin node (as always) and installing C-Lightning or LND onto the same machine.
On mobile, I like to use mostly Breez due to the control it offers. Regarding privacy, it uses a Bitcoin node provided by Breez but through BIP 157 which should be pretty fine. I'll try to connect to my own node, though, let's see if this is possible.

[fxsniper]

How can I try to use Lightning Network on bitcoin testnet?
Did testnet support Lightning Network?
and What is application  app for use Lightning Network both on testnet and on bitcoin Lightning Network real live?

[Rath_]

How can I try to use Lightning Network on bitcoin testnet?

You can use Eclair Mobile Testnet. You need to use some faucet to obtain testnet coins and then you can open a channel with some node.

and What is application  app for use Lightning Network both on testnet and on bitcoin Lightning Network real live?

I can't recall an app like that. If you want to use the wallet above on the mainnet, you need to download the mainnet version. There are also a few other mainnet wallets that you should consider: Phoenix Wallet, Breez Wallet, BlueWallet (custodial Lightning wallet; you don't have to open channels on your own).

[Wind_FURY]

We see shitcoins accepted everywhere, especially online casinos that accept cryptocurrencies, but Lightning acceptance is low.

For exchanges, I assume their business model requires free deposits and expensive withdrawals. That discourages people from taking their funds out of the website. For casinos, I kinda just assume the same! Why have someone withdraw 50,000 sat in LN if you can make him gamble more to reach the minimum on-chain withdrawal amount and pay a much higher withdrawal fee?
Fast and cheap withdrawals simply aren't in the interest of many businesses.

Or maybe I'm just wrong here, because cheap and fast deposits would totally be in their interest. It would be very nice if some casino owners can chip in on their reasoning

We can make up different reasons, but what is actually happening is every year, shitcoins are gaining more usage, and becoming higher in market value. Bitcoin apps like Lightning should make the narrative for shitcoins weaker and less convincing, but it’s not.

How many of them have you talked to?

I don't know, I don't count the people I talk to. I suspect that most of the ChipMixer participants use the lightning network.

In general, would you say that more than 50% of Bitcoin users use Lightning just for faster transactions, and cheaper fees?

[BlackHatCoiner]

Another example would be BlueWallet, which allows to connect only to LND instances (through LNDHub).

Yeah, I use BlueWallet pretty frequently, so I guess I'll just stick with LND.

I'd like to ask the other way round: what's the big issue with wiping & reinstalling?

It's a fuss. I'll have to move the whole block chain to another drive, which will take lots of time as it's HDD. Then, I'll have to re-install whatever I had before (which I'm not quite sure) and then re-move the chain back to it. I speculate that this will cost me around 3-4 hours which is what I call a trouble.

Sure, if there wasn't any other way, I would, but if there is, I prefer that.

How can I try to use Lightning Network on bitcoin testnet?

If you don't have tBTC, don't hesitate to ask for some:  [Merit] [Faucet] Hey Bitcoiners! Wanna try out the lightning network?

[n0nce]

Every year, shitcoins are gaining more usage, and becoming higher in market value. Bitcoin apps like Lightning should make the narrative for shitcoins weaker and less convincing, but it’s not.

That's because people don't buy shitcoins because they would like to use Bitcoin, but 8 cents per transactions is too expensive for them or because they don't like LN. They buy shitcoins in hope of making a fortune, due to feeling 'too late for Bitcoin'. Why? Because that's how these coins are advertised to them virtually anywhere; even in mainstream media (see coverage of Squid Game Token for example, while they don't write about BTC ATH's or LN adoption rising). These coins come and go, exactly because they're advertised as 'quick, easy money', so they're all pump & dump. Some may stick around and the overall market cap of alts may rise, but nothing will ever seriously rival Bitcoin anytime soon.

However.. this is extremely OT. This is now a 'Bitcoin vs Altcoins' discussion and should continue (if at all) somewhere other than 'Lightning Network FAQ'.

I'd like to ask the other way round: what's the big issue with wiping & reinstalling?

It's a fuss. I'll have to move the whole block chain to another drive, which will take lots of time as it's HDD. Then, I'll have to re-install whatever I had before (which I'm not quite sure) and then re-move the chain back to it. I speculate that this will cost me around 3-4 hours which is what I call a trouble.

Oh well then in your case it might make sense. However, don't underestimate how much time can be lost during 'saving' a borked installation or something like that. As mentioned before, from my experience I'm quicker to reinstall OS and software than fixing stuff, that's why I do it like that these days.
For example, on this node I purposely put the blockchain directory on a secondary drive, so I can kind of play around with the OS, possibly try LND, go back to C-Lightning and all that, simply by wiping and reinstalling what I like to try next, without ever risking to lose the blockchain really, quite convenient. And to be fair, if you do need to copy a few hundred gigs, it can take a few hours, but you don't have to sit and look at it. Start that rsync and let it run..

[nopara73]

I heard that Wasabi wallet created 1 BTC Privacy Research Grant for making wallet like this that should last until September 2022, but I don't know about any alternative.

That is correct and we still didn't have a single applicant, so just want to take the opportunity to encourage the readers to apply if they feel capable

[Carlton Banks]

I'd rather not post my node id publicly from my Bitcointalk account for now as I'm not yet entirely sure what this would mean for my privacy.

If you are running behind Tor then you should be concerned only about the origin of coins which you used to open your channels.

I would add that tor on it's own may not be enough to anonymize yourself from persistent attackers. There are various known attack methods that can obtain or infer information about tor nodes/onion domains, but mitigations exist also. Seeing as LN nodes value constant uptime, I'd guess that being a persistent attacker will eventually pay off.

probably a good idea to look into for lightning node operators, although I realize people do connect their LN node over tor only to take advantage of simple port forwarding (and don't care about anonymity)

[HeRetiK]

I would add that tor on it's own may not be enough to anonymize yourself from persistent attackers. There are various known attack methods that can obtain or infer information about tor nodes/onion domains, but mitigations exist also. Seeing as LN nodes value constant uptime, I'd guess that being a persistent attacker will eventually pay off.

Could you share info on attacks as applicable to LN nodes? This one seems fairly relevant, but I didn't find much else:
https://blog.torproject.org/announcing-vanguards-add-onion-services/

(except for various DDoS research and the classical OPSEC failures when using TOR to browse the internet)

probably a good idea to look into for lightning node operators, although I realize people do connect their LN node over tor only to take advantage of simple port forwarding (and don't care about anonymity)

Probably true, but I also think that these days people are fairly aware of the fact that sharing their IP address publicly on the interwebz may not be such a good idea. Not needing to set up port forwarding or a dynamic DNS is definitely a neat side effect though.

[n0nce]

I would add that tor on it's own may not be enough to anonymize yourself from persistent attackers. There are various known attack methods that can obtain or infer information about tor nodes/onion domains, but mitigations exist also. Seeing as LN nodes value constant uptime, I'd guess that being a persistent attacker will eventually pay off.

Could you share info on attacks as applicable to LN nodes? This one seems fairly relevant, but I didn't find much else:
https://blog.torproject.org/announcing-vanguards-add-onion-services/

I think a scheme could be constructed as follows:
1) control lots of Tor exit / entry nodes
2) find real IP of node operator (deanonymise them)
3) got a mapping between LN node ID and BT username