The Lightning Network FAQ

[BlackHatCoiner]

So I have 1000 sat on Phoenix for Testnet. It doesn't swap because it detects a very big amount of fees I need.

If Phoenix uses testnet3, you'd need a lot more than that to transfer on-chain. The median fee on testnet3 right now is around 700 sat/vb.

What derivation paths I should use?

Just for the record, have you resolved this issue?

2b. After I get step 2a work, I'd like to get a channel made on testnet, for a taste of it. Can it be done with less than the fees Phoenix is estimating now (141,616 sat)?

No. I can give you 0.1 tBTC3 to play with it, though, if that's your only problem. Just give me an address.

[NeuroticFish]

If Phoenix uses testnet3, you'd need a lot more than that to transfer on-chain. The median fee on testnet3 right now is around 700 sat/vb.

Wow! 

What derivation paths I should use?

Just for the record, have you resolved this issue?

Nope, I've done a couple of unsuccessful tests, asked here and I'll try again after I get more info.
Simply, I want to "spend" those 1k sats (OK, high fees, doesn't matter, I want to emphasize I don't want an address-based watch only wallet) from an on-chain SPV wallet. Right now, I think that they are on a taproot testnet address.

No. I can give you 0.1 tBTC3 to play with it, though, if that's your only problem. Just give me an address.

That's very kind of you. I will however, do everything step by step, hence I'll come back to this after my emergency recovery tests succeed.

[LoyceV]

2b. After I get step 2a work, I'd like to get a channel made on testnet, for a taste of it. Can it be done with less than the fees Phoenix is estimating now (141,616 sat)?

Testnet fees are crazy. If it can work on Testnet 4, fees are low (I can send you some Testnet 4 coins if you want).

(I only now see this conversation continued on the next page already, so my post is kinda irrelevant)

[NeuroticFish]

Just for the record, have you resolved this issue?

I've finally found the missing bit. This topic from reddit enlightened me:
* the wallet is non custodial, however, the money seem to get into self custody only in case of issues
* the deposit addresses are actually owned by ACINQ (creators of Phoenix wallet) and from there they swap into the LN channel

No. I can give you 0.1 tBTC3 to play with it, though, if that's your only problem. Just give me an address.

I've switched to looking into some Youtube tutorials and I'll skip the testnet3 part simply because the fees on testnet3 are insane and I don't want to wait until the mainnet fees become high too. Thanks for the offer though.

[LoyceV]

I've finally found the missing bit. This topic from reddit enlightened me:
* the wallet is non custodial, however, the money seem to get into self custody only in case of issues
* the deposit addresses are actually owned by ACINQ (creators of Phoenix wallet) and from there they swap into the LN channel

It's been a few years since I used Phoenix Wallet, but if I remember correctly it's only the channel creation part that's custodial. Once the channel is created, it's all yours.

I don't want to wait until the mainnet fees become high too.

Phoenix Wallet charges 1000 sat to create a channel. That's a lot less than when I used it.

[NeuroticFish]

Phoenix Wallet charges 1000 sat to create a channel. That's a lot less than when I used it.

Well, I've deposited 110k sats, off which 296 sats went away for some miner fees and 1271 sats for channel management, total 1567 sats.
I guess that the difference from the 1000 sats is highly related to network congestion and fees, and that's what I meant, although I didn't know how much will it be, just the 140k+ they've written for testnet gave me... chills... 

However, I have LN wallet, yay! 

[LoyceV]

However, I have LN wallet, yay!  

Just over 1% in total fees isn't bad at all

I'm kinda curious to see if mine still work: I have 2 wallets, both created before I had my current phone. Both had channels with no funds on my end, and I'm curious to see if they've been closed by now.

[NeuroticFish]

I'm kinda curious to see if mine still work: I have 2 wallets, both created before I had my current phone. Both had channels with no funds on my end, and I'm curious to see if they've been closed by now.

From what I've seen, Phoenix can be recovered properly from the seed.
The channels will be there, but if a year has passed then ACINQ may claim back the unused liquidity.

After a year, the channel will simply revert to default behavior, which is that part or all of the unused liquidity may be claimed back anytime by your counterparty (ACINQ). Claiming back liquidity doesn't close the channel and doesn't change your balance. Note, just because ACINQ has the option to do so doesn't mean that we will exert it, and indeed we typically don't. In particular, we have no incentive to do so if mining fees are high or if the channel is actively used.

[stwenhao]

and I'll skip the testnet3 part simply because the fees on testnet3 are insane

It seems they are not, just mempool.space is flooded with transactions, which are not broadcasted anywhere else.

[NeuroticFish]

and I'll skip the testnet3 part simply because the fees on testnet3 are insane

It seems they are not, just mempool.space is flooded with transactions, which are not broadcasted anywhere else.

As long as (I expected) Phoenix wallet doesn't move forward without an unnecessarily big amount of sats, it's no difference.

At least for now I'm okay. Thanks.

[Wind_FURY]

Phoenix Wallet charges 1000 sat to create a channel. That's a lot less than when I used it.

Well, I've deposited 110k sats, off which 296 sats went away for some miner fees and 1271 sats for channel management, total 1567 sats.
I guess that the difference from the 1000 sats is highly related to network congestion and fees, and that's what I meant, although I didn't know how much will it be, just the 140k+ they've written for testnet gave me... chills...  

However, I have LN wallet, yay!  

If you want to try it with real Bitcoins, then you can currently use the Lightning Network to deposit to BetPlay, https://betplay.io/en/

 



Don't deposit a large of money though, merely use it to try it.

I tried to encourage everyone to start asking their favorite crypto casinos to accept Bitcoin transactions through Lightning about two years ago, but they were ignored in the gambling subforum.

Perhaps it's the right time to start encouraging everyone again.

🤔

[stwenhao]

I tried to encourage everyone to start asking their favorite crypto casinos to accept Bitcoin transactions through Lightning about two years ago, but they were ignored in the gambling subforum.

Well, I asked about it a few years ago, and casino's response was simple: they didn't find it to be worth the effort. The most significant part of their income was related to on-chain deposits, and changing their infrastructure to support LN properly was more costly, than they could potentially get out of it.

And, it is quite logical: if in the global stats you can see, that people won 250k BTC, and wagered 480k BTC, then why bother handling on-chain amounts below 30k sats?

[Wind_FURY]

I tried to encourage everyone to start asking their favorite crypto casinos to accept Bitcoin transactions through Lightning about two years ago, but they were ignored in the gambling subforum.

Well, I asked about it a few years ago, and casino's response was simple: they didn't find it to be worth the effort. The most significant part of their income was related to on-chain deposits, and changing their infrastructure to support LN properly was more costly, than they could potentially get out of it.

And, it is quite logical: if in the global stats you can see, that people won 250k BTC, and wagered 480k BTC, then why bother handling on-chain amounts below 30k sats?

Those responses show their short-term thinking towards Bitcoin, instead of having a zoomed out logic. Perhaps that they haven't truly understood that they need to be altruistic some of the time and give back to Bitcoin as Bitcoin has gave to them and helped them in some way. The long-term success of Bitcoin also ensures the long-term success of their services.

Do they actually believe that "the future of cryptocurrencies" is in shitcoins?

 

Laughable.

[LoyceV]

Those responses show their short-term thinking towards Bitcoin, instead of having a zoomed out logic. Perhaps that they haven't truly understood that they need to be altruistic some of the time and give back to Bitcoin as Bitcoin has gave to them and helped them in some way. The long-term success of Bitcoin also ensures the long-term success of their services.

Do they actually believe that "the future of cryptocurrencies" is in shitcoins?

You can't honestly believe casinos are in business to improve Bitcoin's future.... They support shitcoins because it's profitable (which is the reason shitcoins were created in the first place).

[NeuroticFish]

Those responses show their short-term thinking towards Bitcoin, instead of having a zoomed out logic. Perhaps that they haven't truly understood that they need to be altruistic some of the time and give back to Bitcoin as Bitcoin has gave to them and helped them in some way. The long-term success of Bitcoin also ensures the long-term success of their services.

I don't expect many businesses are "altruistic". And, as said, if the current way of things makes people do bigger deposits (and usually lose them), why go for small money?
Plus that the current on chain low fees don't help.

When the on chain fees will grow and people will think twice before depositing... (and also don't switch to shitcoins - maybe a wishful thinking though) then they could think again.
However, imho it's easier to advocate LN to businesses when on chain fees are high. And that's not now.

[LoyceV]

However, imho it's easier to advocate LN to businesses when on chain fees are high. And that's not now.

This would be the time to open channels, so you have LN-capacity ready and don't have to open them when on-chain fees are high.

[NotATether]

However, imho it's easier to advocate LN to businesses when on chain fees are high. And that's not now.

This would be the time to open channels, so you have LN-capacity ready don't have to open them when on-chain fees are high.

^---- this. You don't want to be forced to open 1mbtc channels when fees are $20. Even 10mbtc channels would be annoying to open like that.

The only issue with all this is that a lot of sites still don't have LN support yet, so it forces you to hold a large stash of LTC, Monero or even ETH (when it's not a rainy day).

[NeuroticFish]

However, imho it's easier to advocate LN to businesses when on chain fees are high. And that's not now.

This would be the time to open channels, so you have LN-capacity ready and don't have to open them when on-chain fees are high.

That's obviously correct, however, if they would think it out this good, they would already have the LN support, don't they?
My point was to see their customers complain that they cannot deposit. Then they could consider doing this step. As long as everything is nice and cozy... they won't bother.

You don't want to be forced to open 1mbtc channels when fees are $20. Even 10mbtc channels would be annoying to open like that.

I think that it's not the opening fee that stops a casino from opening LN node/channels.... I'd expect that for them 20$ is peanuts.

[LoyceV]

I think that it's not the opening fee that stops a casino from opening LN node/channels.... I'd expect that for them 20$ is peanuts.

When I said this would be the time to open LN-channels, I meant for users. Companies with very large channels indeed won't care much about the fee. It's the small channels where fees matter.

I'm kinda curious to see if mine still work: I have 2 wallets, both created before I had my current phone. Both had channels with no funds on my end, and I'm curious to see if they've been closed by now.

I tested this by restoring the wallets: both show no balance (as expected), and no channels. I guess the channels have been closed, but I didn't expect them to disappear without a trace. Shouldn't my (restored) wallet still be able to see the closed channels?

[Wind_FURY]

Those responses show their short-term thinking towards Bitcoin, instead of having a zoomed out logic. Perhaps that they haven't truly understood that they need to be altruistic some of the time and give back to Bitcoin as Bitcoin has gave to them and helped them in some way. The long-term success of Bitcoin also ensures the long-term success of their services.

Do they actually believe that "the future of cryptocurrencies" is in shitcoins?

You can't honestly believe casinos are in business to improve Bitcoin's future.... They support shitcoins because it's profitable (which is the reason shitcoins were created in the first place).

But that's not the actual point. The point is casinos are incentivized to ensure that the success of Bitcoin should not be impaired, because if Bitcoin crashes and "dies", then the whole cryptocurrency will crash and die. Does everyone actually believe that a shitcoin like Ethereum will lead this industry?

 ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Plus go to your favorite casino and look at their accepted coins for deposits. Most of those coins are almost dead. Where will they be after ten years?