Can you see the blockchain being used to register votes in general elections?

[IrishFutbol]

Will never happen.

Political scientists will analyze the voter base and ultimately determine that this would benefit 1 party over the other.  The other party would then kick and scream and block it in every way possible.

[JohnnyBTCSeed]

Can bitcoin technology be used to end election fraud globally?

No, absolutely not.

In any form of voting, and individual cannot have ANY means of proving which way they voted. Why? Because allowing voters to prove how they voted opens the market to vote-selling.

Voting must be done in such a way that: I, as an individual, cannot prove to any other party how I voted. It doesn't matter if the system is pseudo-anonymous like Bitcoin -- I can still show someone my private keys / sign a message / whatever.

There is also no way, mathematically, to 1) verify that each individual is authorized to vote and votes only once, while 2) not allowing that individual to prove which way they voted. You need to trust a third party for that.

Then apparently we're all fucked. Cause in the current system, votes get flipped, lost, changed, etc. 

I was kinda hoping that at our point in human civilization we have learned how to make voting work. Man I feel like humans are dumb animals who can blow shit up but not count worth a damn.

[JohnnyBTCSeed]

This can be used ofcourse which will require a new program to go on & can be used to stop fraud somewhere but believe me
Government won't let you do this, otherwise how corruption will go on?

If we build it they will come. It's really hard to ask for change when there are no other options. Let such a system prove its mettle before using in a presidental election. There are lots and lots of other elections. Hell another country might even benefit from this.

[JohnnyBTCSeed]

If people like this concept and want to help beta test it, send me a PM. I will be opening up Beta testing on using the blockchain for voting in about a week.

I already have the voting working, I just want people to go through the process to find any bugs in the interface so I can open up a professional, useful site in about a month (have been working on the site for the past year, working on the concept for much longer).

I will be using the test chain as opposed to the blockchain for beta testing (though it currently works using the blockchain, I need to add some code for the test blockchain).

Sounds inspirational. Can't wait.

[JohnnyBTCSeed]

"Every voter (or possibly just every political party/interested parties) verifies that the resulting transaction appears to be valid."
Thats why I thought you had to use a blockchain because of the double spend issue. Or the ease at which a block explorer can verify info.

"Some kind of blind signatures are done, signing votes over to candidates."
please elaborate

With Bitcoin, every (full) node on the network verifies that all of the transactions it sees are valid (ie: follow certain rules). Vote verifiers would check that the number of voters appears to be correct; that the number of votes is correct, and that all the signatures are valid. Since only one (or group of transactions) are needed on voting day, the block-chain concept does not apply.

See post in the CoinJoin thread I linked to earlier. I don't understand how blind signatures would work with shared outputs, but gmaxwell thinks it is possible. It appears his mitigations involve keeping everybody's output separate. For voting, you would also need some way to prevent the vote server from recording everybody's vote before blinding is complete.

From your coinjoin link-
"since the voters don't share their votes with each other, it is possible to mis-allocate votes without detection (as long as you are not too greedy)."
"This works because non-communicating participants can only ever check that their own outputs look correct. One way to mitigate this is to phase out address reuse: which has not yet happened in practice."

I guess let me ask a question. How anonymous is the current voting system. Don't the ballots have a bar code on them. Don't the polling admins known what day and approx what time you voted. They check my id when I arrive and hand me an "anonymous ballot". How about absentee, they mail you a ballot, no tracking there?

It would be great to verify that my vote got counted in the right place and also great to get real time updates on who is winning. I also get your point about miss-allocating votes without detection, thats how dead people vote right?

My understanding is that the exit poll is used as a way to verify the accuracy of voting precincts and flush out anomalies. At least it was the statistical standard till Karl Rove declared it inaccurate because his boy W was stealing 2 elections.

So my question is coinjoin even needed? And if blockchain technology is not relevant to this discussion, though to me it still seems like it can do everything we need it to, then what would the best system be.

I envision using a blcokchain or whatever + polling workers. The polling workers check that the number of voters appears to be correct; that the number of votes is correct, and that all the signatures are valid. I can then check after that my vote is valid, though if it isn't linked to me then I can't prove that to anyone but myself and sell that info. Add an exit poll for extra verification.

So to sum up why would a hybrid of blockchain + poll workers doing nearly exactly what they already do not work.

[JohnnyBTCSeed]

In the 2012 election protocols to quarantine the release of data were put in place.[4]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exit_poll

[roslinpl]

Will never happen.

Political scientists will analyze the voter base and ultimately determine that this would benefit 1 party over the other.  The other party would then kick and scream and block it in every way possible.

Sure it will not. This is crazy to even think it will

regards!

[Elwar]

You are looking at it all wrong if you are thinking that the blockchain can be used to make the current government voting structure better.

That is like saying that you want to use Bitcoin to make the dollar better. That is not the goal, we are looking to replace government money, not improve it.

Thus, the same needs to be done for voting. We can have a better voting system and replace current government structures and have the first ever fully voluntary government (if you think your current government is voluntary, try not paying taxes and see where that gets you).

It will take time to grow that large but Bitcoin has made that possible.

[phillipsjk]

Then apparently we're all fucked. Cause in the current system, votes get flipped, lost, changed, etc.  

I was kinda hoping that at our point in human civilization we have learned how to make voting work. Man I feel like humans are dumb animals who can blow shit up but not count worth a damn.

Canada uses the KISS system:

• paper ballots/pencils
• Sealed ballot boxes
• Manual counting

We get the election results within about 6 hours, barring judicial recounts.

Granted, Canada uses a relatively simple First Past the Post voting system.

I guess let me ask a question. How anonymous is the current voting system. Don't the ballots have a bar code on them. Don't the polling admins known what day and approx what time you voted. They check my id when I arrive and hand me an "anonymous ballot". How about absentee, they mail you a ballot, no tracking there?

In Canada, the serial number is torn from the ballot before going into the ballot box. While it may be possible to figure out the order of votes, actually trying to do so is illegal. Because two people count the ballots, trying anything funny would get noticed.

[roslinpl]

You are looking at it all wrong if you are thinking that the blockchain can be used to make the current government voting structure better.

That is like saying that you want to use Bitcoin to make the dollar better. That is not the goal, we are looking to replace government money, not improve it.

Thus, the same needs to be done for voting. We can have a better voting system and replace current government structures and have the first ever fully voluntary government (if you think your current government is voluntary, try not paying taxes and see where that gets you).

It will take time to grow that large but Bitcoin has made that possible.

I can agree with you as what you saying make sense!

Cheers!

[JohnnyBTCSeed]

You are looking at it all wrong if you are thinking that the blockchain can be used to make the current government voting structure better.

That is like saying that you want to use Bitcoin to make the dollar better. That is not the goal, we are looking to replace government money, not improve it.

Thus, the same needs to be done for voting. We can have a better voting system and replace current government structures and have the first ever fully voluntary government (if you think your current government is voluntary, try not paying taxes and see where that gets you).

It will take time to grow that large but Bitcoin has made that possible.

Ok, finaly this argument is evolving. You are saying that btc is a replacement to the dollar not a compliment to the dollar. And like wise we don't need a compliment to the vote system , ie votecoin, but a system to replace the current voting system.

I thought the blockchain was a consesus system. Why is the blockchain the wrong technology? And what IS the right technology for the job?

[Lauda]

Will never happen.

Political scientists will analyze the voter base and ultimately determine that this would benefit 1 party over the other.  The other party would then kick and scream and block it in every way possible.

Never say never. It is possible, but not likely.

[Elwar]

You are looking at it all wrong if you are thinking that the blockchain can be used to make the current government voting structure better.

That is like saying that you want to use Bitcoin to make the dollar better. That is not the goal, we are looking to replace government money, not improve it.

Thus, the same needs to be done for voting. We can have a better voting system and replace current government structures and have the first ever fully voluntary government (if you think your current government is voluntary, try not paying taxes and see where that gets you).

It will take time to grow that large but Bitcoin has made that possible.

Ok, finaly this argument is evolving. You are saying that btc is a replacement to the dollar not a compliment to the dollar. And like wise we don't need a compliment to the vote system , ie votecoin, but a system to replace the current voting system.

I thought the blockchain was a consesus system. Why is the blockchain the wrong technology? And what IS the right technology for the job?

No, I agree that the blockchain is the right technology. It is the most secure way of voting, the amount of computing power using it as a currency makes it about the most secure way to vote in the world.

But the way votes in current government structures are used is ancient (literally). You vote for some people to go represent you and they go on to use that as justification to use a military and police to "morally" steal money from people to "do what you ask of them".

What Bitcoin and the blockchain can do is cut the government middleman. You want a problem solved?
1. You and others who agree that it is a problem pledge some bitcoins toward the problem.
2. People propose solutions to the problem, along with the cost.
3. You and others vote with your pledged bitcoins via the blockchain. If the cost is covered, the proposer gets the bitcoins. Otherwise the money stays with you and the others.
4. The problem is solved, people are not forced to pay for your problem, you get what you want to pay for.

[JohnnyBTCSeed]

You are looking at it all wrong if you are thinking that the blockchain can be used to make the current government voting structure better.

That is like saying that you want to use Bitcoin to make the dollar better. That is not the goal, we are looking to replace government money, not improve it.

Thus, the same needs to be done for voting. We can have a better voting system and replace current government structures and have the first ever fully voluntary government (if you think your current government is voluntary, try not paying taxes and see where that gets you).

It will take time to grow that large but Bitcoin has made that possible.

Ok, finaly this argument is evolving. You are saying that btc is a replacement to the dollar not a compliment to the dollar. And like wise we don't need a compliment to the vote system , ie votecoin, but a system to replace the current voting system.

I thought the blockchain was a consesus system. Why is the blockchain the wrong technology? And what IS the right technology for the job?

No, I agree that the blockchain is the right technology. It is the most secure way of voting, the amount of computing power using it as a currency makes it about the most secure way to vote in the world.

But the way votes in current government structures are used is ancient (literally). You vote for some people to go represent you and they go on to use that as justification to use a military and police to "morally" steal money from people to "do what you ask of them".

What Bitcoin and the blockchain can do is cut the government middleman. You want a problem solved?
1. You and others who agree that it is a problem pledge some bitcoins toward the problem.
2. People propose solutions to the problem, along with the cost.
3. You and others vote with your pledged bitcoins via the blockchain. If the cost is covered, the proposer gets the bitcoins. Otherwise the money stays with you and the others.
4. The problem is solved, people are not forced to pay for your problem, you get what you want to pay for.

The comment on a fully voluntary gov was a really good one. This is a very deep concept. But If I can sum up what you are saying.

Voting with the blockchain will work. However by merely replacing the current voting system it does nothing to help us as the fundamental flaw isn't in how the votes are counted but how the elected officials act. With bitcoin you are your own bank and if you entrust your coins to a third party you really don't have any control over them. The current government structure is similar to a mt gox situation. Instead of taking direct control over our actions we let other people by proxy make those decisions for us. And unfortunately due to the human condition, like mt gox, those leaders inevitable fail us in some way shape or form and rip us off/ kill/ torture/ in-prison/ etc.

[Elwar]

The comment on a fully voluntary gov was a really good one. This is a very deep concept. But If I can sum up what you are saying.

Voting with the blockchain will work. However by merely replacing the current voting system it does nothing to help us as the fundamental flaw isn't in how the votes are counted but how the elected officials act. With bitcoin you are your own bank and if you entrust your coins to a third party you really don't have any control over them. The current government structure is similar to a mt gox situation. Instead of taking direct control over our actions we let other people by proxy make those decisions for us. And unfortunately due to the human condition, like mt gox, those leaders inevitable fail us in some way shape or form and rip us off/ kill/ torture/ in-prison/ etc.

Sounds about right.

If you would like to help in beta testing let me know.

[Swordsoffreedom]

I recalled that project that slipped my memory it was the Agora Voting and if I recall correctly it was used in a Spanish election one time as well
http://bitcoinmagazine.com/9562/agora-voting-proposes-bitcoin-based-voting-system/