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Author Topic: theymos suggestion for permaban  (Read 469 times)
Daniel91
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August 26, 2019, 01:46:05 PM
Last edit: August 26, 2019, 01:56:35 PM by Daniel91
Merited by The Pharmacist (2), DaveF (2)
 #1

First of all, I believe that for serious offenses such as scams etc. we should have a way to exclude such members from the forum.
But, what about some other, no so clear cases like plagiarism?
I think we could already see different standards for solving this problem in the forum so far.
Some cases are resolved very quickly and easily, even in a few days or hours but some other cases have not been resolved in months, without clear reasons.
Shouldn't there be equal criteria for everyone?
This way, some of the more famous members seem to have different treatment than some of the lesser known and prominent members of this forum.
In this way, there seems to be no clear and verifiable criteria for dealing with such cases, what is not good, in my opinion.
I think it is forgotten here that there are members who mainly write in local forums because of their poor knowledge of English but the are very important for their local communities.
Does that make them less valuable to the whole btc community?
I believe not.
I think, as a btc community, we should show a greater level of transparency and have equal approach to all members, regardless of their global popularity in the forum.
Great example is here:  https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5097792.0

I believe that you and other admins put this topic on ignore list and one of the reason is probably because RegulusHr, as merit source, received an increase in the number of available merits just day before he received permaban.
I believe this could have been a big and serious reason to punish him and to do it harshly, and put him on a special black list for members for whom there is no forgiveness.
However, I think this topic has shown a lot of interest from the local community in this case, and that the local community has clearly shown a desire to bring this user back.
I think this case has also shown that we need small changes in the procedures for dealing with cases like this.
I know that it is not realistic to offer everyone a permaban forgiveness and that there are too many such cases on the forum.
I suggest the following:
1.   If there is a clear interest from a local or global community to forgive a permaban for some user (voting for example, if more than 20 members support the removal of permaban
2.   If at least 6 months have passed since permaban
3.   Just in case of plagiarism
4.   If there were no other bans before
5.   If the user apologized and admitted his mistake


then I suggest that the admins consider the case and if all the criteria are met, remove permaban, with some possible additional restrictions on the forum as a prohibition on using the signature, sending private messages etc.
This way we would have a much greater transparency in dealing with cases like this, and also the interest of the local or global community would be satisfied.

Of course, this is not only a proposal for 1 user but for anyone who meets the suggested criteria.
I mentioned him because I know this case the best and it was inspiration to write this suggestion.
I think that many other users will benefit from this.



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August 26, 2019, 02:14:30 PM
Merited by DdmrDdmr (1)
 #2

I do believe Theymos said permaban appeals would be considered on a case-by-case basis, which implies that not everyone would be treated as equals--because not every case is the same, and not all users contribute equally.  I happen to think that's fair, though I understand that it appears as though some members are getting special treatment--because they are.

The majority of plagiarism offenses are perpetrated by members just trying to pad their post count for sig campaigns, and if they get caught they just move on with a different account after their ban appeal fails to attract attention.  Usually such members have contributed nothing but shitposts and noise to the forum, and there should be no set of criteria which allows them to be unbanned.

And then you get members, usually high-ranked ones, who've made the "mistake" of plagiarizing something early on but who've never repeated that behavior, and somehow their copy/pasting got caught by the plagiarism bot or a very astute member.  If such a member has proven to be a valuable contributor to the forum, I think all evidence of that should be taken into account when Theymos decides to lift the ban or not, and I think that's exactly what he's doing right now.

1.   If there is a clear interest from a local or global community to forgive a permaban for some user (voting for example, if more than 20 members support the removal of permaban
2.   If at least 6 months have passed since permaban
3.   Just in case of plagiarism
4.   If there were no other bans before
5.   If the user apologized and admitted his mistake
Those aren't bad guidelines, but there probably wouldn't be much of a practical difference if they were implemented, or it could backfire.  On the first point alone, if a shitposter got banned for plagiarism, he wouldn't get much support from other members or he could employ a team of alt accounts or "friends" to rush to his aid. 

I think it's probably best to just accept that Theymos is going to be the arbiter of ban-lifting.  It's a centralized solution, but he's pretty level-headed and knows what he's doing.  And he's the admin, too.

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August 26, 2019, 02:22:13 PM
Last edit: August 26, 2019, 02:49:10 PM by tbct_mt2
 #3

First of all, I believe that for serious offenses such as scams etc. we should have a way to exclude such members from the forum.
But, what about some other, no so clear cases like plagiarism?
No matter due to plagiarism or other reasons that led to permanent bans, those users need to have significant positive net-effects. Perma-ban appeal will be handled case-by-case, but only cases which have good net-effects will see perman-ban removed.
There's been no policy change. redsn0w wasn't permanently banned due to several factors which made me think that permabanning him would be a net negative for the forum. Nobody is banned strictly because of "the rules"; it's always handled case-by-case, but almost always, plagiarists deserve to be permabanned.

If you think that a ban should be ended, make your case in a new topic from a "good for the forum as a whole" perspective.
A few people have their bans removed for numerous reasons. It's not plagiarism if it's your own work and if you can prove that then the ban should be lifted in those cases.
For plagiarism, please read there: [TIPS] to avoid plagiarism

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August 26, 2019, 02:46:42 PM
 #4

I do believe Theymos said permaban appeals would be considered on a case-by-case basis, which implies that not everyone would be treated as equals--because not every case is the same, and not all users contribute equally.  I happen to think that's fair, though I understand that it appears as though some members are getting special treatment--because they are.

Heard mine from @hilariousetc so could be, he did say so and if I'm to air my views on this, I'll consider it the best solution so far unless theymos will buy into the idea of users commiting a second offend before they get permanently banned for pagiarism. Prevention is better than cure like they say so it'll be wise to abstain from breaking any forum rules especially the ones that could lead to getting banned if you're not ready to take the punishment associated with such act.

The decision to judge each individual separately promote the need for users to engage in becoming a net positive user of the community or totally abstain from committing plagiarism. Most cases i have seen so far are usually those of users just been quality contributors & from my understanding of what been "net positive" to the forum is all about, goes beyond just your post quality.

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August 26, 2019, 07:19:00 PM
 #5

~

Those aren't bad guidelines, but there probably wouldn't be much of a practical difference if they were implemented, or it could backfire.  On the first point alone, if a shitposter got banned for plagiarism, he wouldn't get much support from other members or he could employ a team of alt accounts or "friends" to rush to his aid.  

I think it's probably best to just accept that Theymos is going to be the arbiter of ban-lifting.  It's a centralized solution, but he's pretty level-headed and knows what he's doing.  And he's the admin, too.

I believe if collected merit of voters would be considered - that it would solve the problems of alt account voting. The users with more collected merit would have more "voting power". I doubt that alt accounts have much merits.

It is up to moderators to decide if the banned person was "net positive for the forum", and I believe it is hard task in some cases to decide if someone is good contributor or not, but proposed criteria would certainly make their jobs easier. Also it would allow that voice of community is heard, specially of communities in local boards that are not involved in forum politics.

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August 26, 2019, 07:36:29 PM
 #6

First of all, I believe that for serious offenses such as scams etc. we should have a way to exclude such members from the forum.
The best way of "excluding" a proven scammer here in the forum is through the trust system and flags created under him. Bans on the other hand are out of the picture since the forum is trying to avoid moderator abuse from varying opinions on each cases. Even though compared to plagiarism where money is loss I believe this is the best way right now of handling scammers in the forum.

But, what about some other, no so clear cases like plagiarism?
I think we could already see different standards for solving this problem in the forum so far.
Some cases are resolved very quickly and easily, even in a few days or hours but some other cases have not been resolved in months, without clear reasons.

We cannot really have a set standard when it comes to handling members who have been dealt with a plagiarism permaban, by giving them a criteria on how they could post again in the forum would simply make plagiarizers have an easy way to come back in the forum and post again. Even if they have "learned the lesson" from the ban it simply makes plagiarism a not so serious case in the forum anymore especially for the members who have established their name in the forum for doing a good job.

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August 27, 2019, 06:40:28 PM
Merited by worldofcoins (2), SuperTA (2)
 #7

In my opinion, scam and plagiarism are not on the same level because in the first case someone intentionally tricked someone, but in other case many times there was an unintentional mistake.
So, if such members are respected members in the global or local community, and made unintentional mistake, why we can't forgive them, if their previous contribution on the forum surpass their mistake?



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September 01, 2019, 03:30:57 PM
Last edit: September 01, 2019, 04:40:57 PM by dkbit98
Merited by philipma1957 (2)
 #8

It is not all black&white...

Moderators sholud examine each case and compare good things that member contributed in this forum, against breaking some forum rules.
I don't think there is a single person here who never broke even a single rule, including theymos or satoshi.

We have people who scam others or post malicious links.
We also recently had one example lunatic humanrightfoundation with his death threats.

Scammers and people like humanrightfoundation should receive permaban,
but breaking rules should be with temp-ban, signature-ban or warning before permaban.

I know there will be bunch of higher ranked members who will disagree with me,
but this is my humble opinion as an active member of Bitcontalk forum.

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September 01, 2019, 04:42:27 PM
 #9

It is not all black&white...

Moderators sholud examine each case and compare good things that member contributed in this forum, against breaking some forum rules.
I don't think there is a single person here who never broke even a single rule, including theymos or satoshi.

We have people who scam others or post malicious links.
We also recently had one example lunatic humanrightfoundation with his death threats.

Scammers and people like humanrightfoundation should receive permaban,
but breaking rules should be with temp-ban, signature-ban or warning before permanban.

I know there will be bunch of higher ranked members who will disagree with me,
but this is my humble opinion as an active member of Bitcontalk forum.

I don’t believe in a permaban for first time you are caught.

I prefer. A 30 day ban. And for example if caught on Oct 1 2019 and banned til oct 31 2019 .  Then all old posts found before oct 1 2019 add 30 more days.

I e. Person is caught and banned on oct 1 2019.  So people go over all post prior to ban and find 11 more.

Ban goes to 360 days.

Permaban is overkill for many people banned.
As I have watched and read people being banned for three or four year old posts. And I am pretty sure that permaban was not discussed four years ago for plagiarizing .

Also I have seen six words in a row in a three hundred word post be called plagiarism.

A far cry from copying three words exactly.

I really would prefer 30 day ban for first offense.

Or 60 day ban for first offense.  Not a permaban.

But I realize many many many people do not quote and copy just to make some coin for a signature campaign .

I would also like to see us end all signatures for a month just to get some data to see how it affects spam.

I see BTC as the super highway and alt coins as taxis and trucks needed to move transactions.
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September 02, 2019, 12:53:45 PM
 #10

I think that permban for plagiarism is too rigorous in cases where users plagiarism is in less than 0,1% of all content which that user had provided.
It shouldn't be statistically significant enough for that level of consequence.
I suggest temporary ban in these cases as a warning sign.
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September 02, 2019, 07:10:12 PM
 #11

I think that permban for plagiarism is too rigorous in cases where users plagiarism is in less than 0,1% of all content which that user had provided.
It shouldn't be statistically significant enough for that level of consequence.
I suggest temporary ban in these cases as a warning sign.

I agree 100 % with you.
We lost so many great members on this forum because of such strict rules on the forum.
What's worse, we did not have a uniform criterion for permaban forgiveness and there was not enough transparency in the process.
I ask the admins to listen to the ''voice of the public'' and respond.



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September 02, 2019, 07:22:09 PM
 #12

It would be good to have update and  rewrite of forum rules.

Some rules should be more strict, and some loosen a bit.

It can be a good balance to keep active users who can contribute, and keep away malicious users.

Problem is I don't see many higher ranked users and moderators talking about this...

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September 02, 2019, 07:58:30 PM
 #13

The current rules of permaban removal are too vague and give too much emphasis on moderators judgement which was dubious in some cases.

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September 03, 2019, 03:58:37 PM
 #14

There was a similar thread about this back in May:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5142827.0

I had a few comments in it and walked away, but I do think the following is still important and should be discussed.
The broad overview is someone I know got a permaban for plagiarism. Problem is, it was his own work he copied / pasted.

If he comes forward, even in private the mods who read it will know who he is IRL. He does not want that.
When I discussed it with him, he was not even happy *I* knew who he was here / that he was posting here.
So I let it go.

But the following is still important:


The other issue would be that since he has almost no merit and a lower post count it's going to be tough to make a good defense.

Yes, it's a very rare 1 off case, but it's still there. And if I know 1 person who had it happen, I will bet you just about any amount there is at least one more.
Possibly they have had an issue with another forum member and this was a push they needed to leave.
Does their SO think they spend too much time on here and it's an internal excuse to leave?
Did they cash out 18 months ago when BTC was at $20k and just don't care as much?

Could they appeal? yes.
Do they want to? possibly.
Will they because of external factors? perhaps not, or at least not now.

As I said, spamming & plagiarizing now. You're out of here. Once it's over 1500 days old and has not been done since? Temp ban with stern warning or something.

-Dave




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September 03, 2019, 05:29:55 PM
 #15

Instead of Perma ban for users why not strip them down of their rank to Newbie status. This will frustrate the hell out of people. Imagine starting all over from 0?
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September 03, 2019, 05:58:46 PM
 #16

Instead of Perma ban for users why not strip them down of their rank to Newbie status. This will frustrate the hell out of people. Imagine starting all over from 0?

That's roughly what a signature ban is supposed to do. Doesn't help against account farmers who just spam the forum with a bunch of noob accounts. That's why there needs to be mod discretion as to which penalty applies to whom but I see some folks in this thread are not happy with that either. Can't please everyone.

Keep in mind though: getting caught with one plagiarized post doesn't mean there is only one plagiarized post. Almost inevitably there is more, often a lot more, and it's extremely hard to prove one way or another. I'd rather trust a genuinely contrite appeal than "I've only done it once" or "1% of the time" or whatever.

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September 03, 2019, 07:21:53 PM
 #17

1.   If there is a clear interest from a local or global community to forgive a permaban for some user (voting for example, if more than 20 members support the removal of permaban
Who will decide if alt accounts are vouching for banned alt account? 20 accounts might be 5 individuals. Or 1. Or 20. Or vouching for any other reason/gain? You will need only 1 account with very good argument.
2.   If at least 6 months have passed since permaban
What was the reason for plagiarism? Was it intentional?
3.   Just in case of plagiarism
How many cases? 1? 2? More?
4.   If there were no other bans before
Irrelevant, you can be spammer and never banned/posts removed. I won't discuss this any further.
5.   If the user apologized and admitted his mistake
Everyone will apologize and admit - well, what is there to admit if they have been caught? Also irrelevant.

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September 03, 2019, 07:45:00 PM
 #18

These are just suggestions, not laws  Grin Grin
All users are free to come up with their suggestions or improve existing ones.
What we need in this forum is more transparency and equal criteria for everybody.
I'm sure that admins are aware of this and that soon we will see a different approach to such and similar issues.
Thank you for your contribution.



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September 03, 2019, 09:08:19 PM
 #19

These are just suggestions, not laws  Grin Grin
Ok, what about this:
1.   If there is a clear interest from a local or global community to forgive a permaban for some user (voting for example, if more than 20 members support the removal of permaban
Who will decide if alt accounts are vouching for banned alt account? 20 accounts might be 5 individuals. Or 1. Or 20. Or vouching for any other reason/gain? You will need only 1 account with very good argument.
2.   If at least 6 months have passed since permaban
What was the reason for plagiarism? Was it intentional?
3.   Just in case of plagiarism
How many cases? 1? 2? More?

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September 04, 2019, 06:32:14 AM
 #20

Thank you for your opinion and suggestions.
In such way we can improve original idea and help admins in their work.
What is the most important point for me is why someone is responsible for plagiarism?
He did it with intention or unintentionally?
In the first case I support permaban but in the other case I think we should offer forgivness for the first time.
I think it's good that members can expresss their opinions about every case but obviously admins and mods will decide on the end.
Still,  it will be good if we can see more transparency in the process, equal criteria for everybody and  answers from admins and mods.





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