Merit source observations

[tranthidung]

I made a comment that it was obvious he was mistaking post length for post quality and that what he'd written was bloated beyond belief.  So yeah, in cases like those you know it when you see it.

Neatly, it is in welcome message from theymos. Let me quote it again!

If you want to maximize your rank, then you need to increase two statistics which are listed on your profile:

• Merit, which is gained by making good posts.

If you make ten thousand posts in a week, your activity will be capped and you will still be a Newbie. If you make ten thousand useless posts over any period of time, you will gain zero merit and you will still be a Newbie. You can rank up only by making good posts consistently. It's quality over quantity.

When trying to write quality posts, a lot of people act as though they're writing a book report for school: putting facts that we already know into their own words. Nobody wants to read that, and you will not get merit for it. Moreover, the length of your post and the quality of your English are only minor factors. In trying to write a quality post worthy of merit, you should offer new ideas, personal experiences, or perspectives that other forum users will actually find new and interesting.

They try to write too long posts that have side effects on readers. Sometimes, readers don't read all the post. Sometimes, they won't understand what is message behind the post.

Other times it's not obvious if someone is just posting because they're hoping to earn merits--and frankly I don't necessarily see that as wrong in and of itself.  You can write a post that's witty or one that's clear there was some work and thought put into it, and as long as it's interesting, who cares what the motivation was behind it?  I only care when it's blatant merit fishing, and I've noticed that those cases tend to be when a lower-ranked member creates a new thread and not when they're posting within one that already exists.

Indeed, it is better than spamming because writer actually work and spend some effort. However, it is still bad in terms of writing. They must improve how they write in order to express their opinion better. I repeatedly told newbies that writing is the art that is hard to achieve Writing Proficiency.

Honestly, when I was young, I hated and can not absorb advises from my tutors about my writing. Sometimes I thought they are too rude or any thing similar. Then, with experience I understand they are right and their advise helps me a lot.

[Cookdata]

........

Hello Ratimov! My concern is out of context of your argument but I will appreciate if you respond.
The Merit that you sent out over the last 2/3 months has reduced drastically when compared to Q1 and late last year, your activity on some boards has also reduced especially the beginner & help board, and some of the threads you frequently updated to help out newbies are no longer active, like the Encyclopedia. I have been wondering if you have been removed from the Merit source because from my observations, it was the week you announced that you will be active in the forum I noticed these changes. You motivate me in many of your threads during my newbie days and I have mange to be a Sr.Member, I really hope you are fine.

Congrats on your 8K merit journey.

[Welsh]

I do get the animosity towards those that appear to be merit fishing, Although, their motivation is there, their application isn't necessarily so. I think getting the pitch fork out, is probably a bad idea, since these types of users can easily adjust, and become valuable users of the forum. There's been many of times where a user has annoyed me a little at first with their posting habits, but years down the line have actually become some of the more prominent users of the forum.

So, while merit fishing should probably be pointed out, I don't think it's a death sentence for a user. They just need to change their thinking a little bit. At the end of the day, if they're posting simply to earn merit, as long as the information is useful, and isn't regurgitated, then I haven't got a problem with their motivations that led to the post, as long as it's of good quality.

[Daniel91]

I do get the animosity towards those that appear to be merit fishing, Although, their motivation is there, their application isn't necessarily so. I think getting the pitch fork out, is probably a bad idea, since these types of users can easily adjust, and become valuable users of the forum. There's been many of times where a user has annoyed me a little at first with their posting habits, but years down the line have actually become some of the more prominent users of the forum.

So, while merit fishing should probably be pointed out, I don't think it's a death sentence for a user. They just need to change their thinking a little bit. At the end of the day, if they're posting simply to earn merit, as long as the information is useful, and isn't regurgitated, then I haven't got a problem with their motivations that led to the post, as long as it's of good quality.

I totally agree with you.
None of us (or at least the vast majority) were big experts at the beginning of our crypto journey and as new members on this forum we wrote posts of lower quality, and that's normal.
It's important that the new member feels accepted and welcome on this forum, and that we give him the opportunity to gain some knowledge and experience.
Of course, many new members, as soon as they understand the value of rank and merit on the forum, will do their best to gain merits as soon as possible and advance on the forum.
Some members will earn merits more easily, while other members will have a harder time, but as long as they don't spam the forum, they should be supported and not criticized too much.

[fillippone]

None of us (or at least the vast majority) were big experts at the beginning of our crypto journey and as new members on this forum we wrote posts of lower quality, and that's normal.

True.
I dare you to read my first posts here, and many of them are of an embarrassingly low quality (even if I still think the third post is still valid!)

The important thing is the journey on the forum!

[_BlackStar]

No, I'm not deleted, I just stopped distributing merit on my own initiative. At the moment my status is active:

I hope you are still willing to do it again soon, your contribution is needed even though at the moment you seem to be taking the initiative not to spend it.

None of us (or at least the vast majority) were big experts at the beginning of our crypto journey and as new members on this forum we wrote posts of lower quality, and that's normal.

You really remind me of my first post again on this forum. At that time I was using android to do activities in forums and even I didn't understand much about electrum and it took me months to learn how to sign messages on PC once I had it.

Many of the merit source here may not be in a hurry to distribute more merit at a time when we are still newbie. We have to prove that we are really newbie who want to gain a lot of knowledge by learning new things on the forum, especially about bitcoin. They want to see the process and for sure if we do it in the best way then I'm sure it will be hard for them to ignore our post. Those are some things that might be normal for merit source in my opinion.

[aysg76]

True.
I dare you to read my first posts here, and many of them are of an embarrassingly low quality (even if I still think the third post is still valid!)

The important thing is the journey on the forum!

Your third post is quite good and also have merits as well depending on the newbie rank and next post also states that what if newbies made quality posts ? That's surely merit worthing.

The same case is for most of us that when we joined the forum we don't have knowledge and same could be judged from our post quality but after that we started learning lot of things and exchange knowledge on the forum growing with time and now see you have managed to earn 10k merits in just few years time span so looking back at time surely boost our confidence that how far we have came.

But there are some newbies on the forum who are just new to the forum but have adequate technical knowledge about bitcoin and merits are being delivered to them at much faster pace.So we all have different way of growing on forum but going ahead is necessary.

[fillippone]

Your third post is quite good and also have merits as well depending on the newbie rank and next post also states that what if newbies made quality posts ? That's surely merit worthing.

That post s where it all began. That was my first merit here on the forum. @Pursuer started my incredible journey here on the forum.

[aylabadia05]

Actually it is true that some members will get better in their post quality with the passage of time, and surely some members might well be trying to earn merits, and I can see why you may well consider the term "fishing for merit" to be derogatory, and maybe even presuming way more bad intentions upon the newbie (or the lower ranking member) than such member deserves.  So yeah, sometimes merit sources may well expect members to have to jump through way too many hoops  before sending any smerits.

It's fine if they want to see people have to go through some hoops to get merit, but it's a bit scary if most people follow this trend. It's hard to come up with a good idea for a topic because actually most of the ideas have been discussed previously by many other users. So this is the real reason why newbie or low ranking users try to get other ideas but unfortunately some of those initiatives can be judged as merit fishing.

It might be good to be a little stingy with high ranking members who could logically do better on this forum based on their contributions and the quality of their posts. The merit system has to be sharp in two directions, it doesn't have to be sharper for high rank while we have to be a bit blunt to low rank ^{[that's really unfair, IMO].} But at the end of the day, the merit system is not moderated and each source has their own way of going about how they spend their monthly sMerit supply. I'm not against it, but I want to share my opinion.

A logical opinion because accounts with higher rankings are already at the stage of "enjoying the results" of what has been done previously with the current merit system and those with higher ranks also deserve merit from other users of the same rank as us, because one and some things that can benefit our progress.

[Daniel91]

None of us (or at least the vast majority) were big experts at the beginning of our crypto journey and as new members on this forum we wrote posts of lower quality, and that's normal.

True.
I dare you to read my first posts here, and many of them are of an embarrassingly low quality (even if I still think the third post is still valid!)

The important thing is the journey on the forum!

I looked at your first 3 posts on the forum, as well as my first 3 
I would rather forget my first 3 posts, but your third post was still quite interesting and good.
I really didn't know anything about crypto in the beginning but I learned from others on this forum and over time I started writing more meaningful posts and sharing my experience with others.
I believe that many other members on this forum started in a similar way, and that is completely normal.
No one is an expert at the beginning, but it is important that we are ready to learn and progress, and with time will come the recognition of others and reputation, merits and progress on the forum. 

[Pmalek]

No, I'm not deleted, I just stopped distributing merit on my own initiative. At the moment my status is active:

Is it because of a lack of activity and time or what led you to the decision to stop meriting other posts? It seems quite easy to do it in the discussions you participate in without having to go on a merit hunt elsewhere. Are you planning to get back to doing the things you did so far or are you considering leaving the forum?

[Z-tight]

No, I'm not deleted, I just stopped distributing merit on my own initiative. At the moment my status is active:

Is it because of a lack of activity and time or what led you to the decision to stop meriting other posts? It seems quite easy to do it in the discussions you participate in without having to go on a merit hunt elsewhere. Are you planning to get back to doing the things you did so far or are you considering leaving the forum?

What happens if a merit source stops meriting posts? Are they booted out? Because i feel as a merit source it is a duty to you to merit posts, if you are a member that is not a merit source then that is different, you might not give out any merits and it would not be a problem, only that members may not merit you too as you are not involved in the system, but as a merit source deciding to stop meriting posts sounds like 'quiting your job'.

[tranthidung]

What happens if a merit source stops meriting posts? Are they booted out?

Only if that merit source sends a request to be blacklist by theymos (blacklist ~ no longer want to be a merit source) or if theymos reshuffles merit sources that he barely does.

Because i feel as a merit source it is a duty to you to merit posts, if you are a member that is not a merit source then that is different, you might not give out any merits and it would not be a problem, only that members may not merit you too as you are not involved in the system, but as a merit source deciding to stop meriting posts sounds like 'quiting your job'.

Personally, it is not a duty or a job!

Merit sources are doing free meriting jobs but they have to spend their time to do it. So there is no pressure from theymos I think. A merit source is granted if theymos considers that member is a quality member and has ability to clarify bad and good posts, trusted enough to not sell sourced merits to get money etc.

[Z-tight]

Personally, it is not a duty or a job!
Merit sources are doing free meriting jobs but they have to spend their time to do it. So there is no pressure from theymos I think. A merit source is granted if theymos considers that member is a quality member and has ability to clarify bad and good posts, trusted enough to not sell sourced merits to get money etc.

Tranthidung i know all of that, merit sources are doing a free job, i know they are not paid or anything, and i never called it a job in the sense you have taken it, maybe you took that part out of context, if you look closely, i put that part in single quotes. My idea is that as a merit source you have a personal duty to keep merits flowing in the forum, that is why the forum generates free merits for you every thirty days to give it out to members. If a merit source isn't active, then they may not have the time that you are talking about, but they do not have to spend their time to do anything if they are active, they can send merits in the threads they participate in.

This is the most stupid thing that Merit Source or any other participant can do, not give out Merit simply because someone else does not give it out either. The merit system is not barter on the basis of you to me, I to you.

I did not say the merit system is similar to a barter trade, but we would want to encourage more people to be involved in the flow, there is no need to hoard it, so i would prefer to send merits to members that are involved in the system, not members that hoard their smerits that is of no use to them, i have also seen merit sources say the same thing.

If every member hoarded merits and expect to receive from others, then who is going to rank up, everyone will be stuck somewhere, users would not celebrate their milestone merit achievements, members will not get to 10k merits, etc.

[Shamm]

No, I'm not deleted, I just stopped distributing merit on my own initiative. At the moment my status is active:

Is it because of a lack of activity and time or what led you to the decision to stop meriting other posts? It seems quite easy to do it in the discussions you participate in without having to go on a merit hunt elsewhere. Are you planning to get back to doing the things you did so far or are you considering leaving the forum?

Maybe there's a valid reason why he doing this because we all know that he is a good merit source  many user here in forum who experience his kindness . But not just merit he he gave to us but the threads he made are very useful and one of the most useful thread in B&H which the encyclopedia many newbie learn a lot.

No, I'm not deleted, I just stopped distributing merit on my own initiative. At the moment my status is active:

Is it because of a lack of activity and time or what led you to the decision to stop meriting other posts? It seems quite easy to do it in the discussions you participate in without having to go on a merit hunt elsewhere. Are you planning to get back to doing the things you did so far or are you considering leaving the forum?

What happens if a merit source stops meriting posts? Are they booted out? Because i feel as a merit source it is a duty to you to merit posts, if you are a member that is not a merit source then that is different, you might not give out any merits and it would not be a problem, only that members may not merit you too as you are not involved in the system, but as a merit source deciding to stop meriting posts sounds like 'quiting your job'.

I don't think so  Because there are merit source who did not just active everytime by sending their sMerit but still they are merit source.

[Pmalek]

What happens if a merit source stops meriting posts? Are they booted out? Because i feel as a merit source it is a duty to you to merit posts, if you are a member that is not a merit source then that is different, you might not give out any merits and it would not be a problem, only that members may not merit you too as you are not involved in the system, but as a merit source deciding to stop meriting posts sounds like 'quiting your job'.

It's not a job. We are not paid for it nor do we receive any special treatment. It's a service that people offer for free. For some it's time consuming, for others not so much.

only that members may not merit you too as you are not involved in the system, but as a merit source decision to stop meriting posts sounds like 'quiting your job'.

This is the most stupid thing that Merit Source or any other participant can do, not give out Merit simply because someone else does not give it out either. The merit system is not barter on the basis of you to me, I to you.

I have to partially agree with Z-tight here. I refuse to merit people who have received plenty of merits but never given any to other Bitcointalk members. I know that many don't agree with that way of doing things, but that's my decision. You are right that merits is not about giving it back to the people who gave them to you. But I always check if the post I am about to merit belongs to someone who is part of the group that merits other posts (regardless of the receiver). If I see something like 200 received merits and 1 sent merits, rest assured that I am not going to throw my merits in that pit. Merits are supposed to circulate between accounts. There are people who refuse to be part of that system and that's fine. But if you don't want to play, don't get angry with me for not passing you the ball. I would rather pass it to someone with more team spirit. The only exception are new users who have just begun receiving merits and people who absolutely don't care about them and have merit-worthy posts.

[Pmalek]

Tell about this to those who send merit to the posts of Satoshi, Lauda, ​​Hal, etc. Their accounts have not been active for a long time and they do not distribute anything to anyone, but this does not prevent users from sending merit to their posts.

Satoshi and Hal were not here when the system got introduced. They don't know or care about it. But that does not diminish the value of their posts and their contribution to Bitcoin overall. Lauda was here and he/she was part of the system. He/she received and sent merits to others. I have no problem meriting an old post of Lauda, but since that user is no longer with us, that won't happen that often simply because I won't come across them anymore. Except when browsing through some old threads.  

I usually call such merit sources merit abusers. Nothing personal.

No offense taken.

[Z-tight]

We will discuss this when it happens, and not at the level of crazy theories that will never materialize in reality.

I don't know what your definition of 'crazy theory' is, it will never materialize like you said only because many people are involved in the merit flow and system, and that is the way it should be, that is why member's are encouraged to be involved in the system, if they do not, then it will materialize, perfect theory.

I usually call such merit sources merit abusers. Nothing personal.

It is your own opinion anyway, but merit abuse for merit sources is selling your merits, if you give them to members that are involved in the system and are nice posters, you are in no way an abuser of the system, but someone that wants the flow to continue and that is great. Another theory is that, for members that are not merit sources to be involved in the system of giving merits they have to be good posters, because it is merits that generate smerits, so if you give to those member you are definitely sending your smerits to nice posters.

[FatFork]

I would rather pass it to someone with more team spirit.

I usually call such merit sources merit abusers. Nothing personal.

I disagree. How is that merit abusing? Everyone, including merit sources, has the right to decide on their own where their merits should go. I also prefer to award merit-worthy posts from members who pass them along rather than hoarding them. I am not saying that this is an exclusive rule, but if I have time, I will check their merit summary.

[Pmalek]

Because such an approach devalues ​​posting as such. The assessment of the post itself fades into the background, and things that are not related to the merit, such as the user's activity, to whom how much he gave what, to whom he is friends, and so on, come to the fore.

I think we are blowing things out of portion here. I am not looking for who is friends with whom and stuff like that. I am only doing the most basic of checks. If the poster receives merits I want to see a history of sending. That's where the check ends. Amounts and to whom aren't important.

And here we get the following situation, a person can write satoshi-level posts, but users (merit sources) don’t give him merit, because he doesn’t distribute it to anyone. Who are we looking for here, posters or distributors?

I touched briefly upon this subject as well in a previous post when I said:

The only exception are new users who have just begun receiving merits and people who absolutely don't care about them and have merit-worthy posts.

That also goes for satoshi-level posting and excellent members who bring quality to the forum. But not everyone fits in that category.