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Author Topic: Bumping changes on some boards  (Read 6495 times)
stompix
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September 11, 2019, 01:58:19 PM
 #41

I bumped oldest (not locked) thread I could find and it seems working.

We should see how this is working in a few days, when spambies realize that their weather forecast discussion won't bump threads any more.

Hmm, this got me thinking a bit, especially because of the not locked part.

It will cost spammers a lot to bump their topics now, they will have to get merit, try to bribe members who normally won't risk their status for a scammy shitcoin...but, is something like let's call it the opposite also possible?

So, in this scenario older members with a lot of merits would bump old topics from now-defunct or not interesting coins purely out of spite for shitcoins (yeah I call them shitcoins, not altcoins or tokens) so that no new project will be able to make it to the first or even second page, thus sabotaging the entire board?



 

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September 11, 2019, 02:17:24 PM
 #42

Do you think this is the best solution?



1/ Some of the smartest and capable devs in the alt section don't acquire much merit at all, some have hardly any. When they post an important announcement like fork or even something more time dependent then this will maybe not even bump the thread to the top or at all?

2/ Some people who like to unjustly attack and derail threads often are held back because they have to weigh this against bumping the thread and giving attention to it. Now they can do this by just registering an alt account and not worry about  the bumping aspect. Competing projects can just derail and keep spamming their "better projects" without worrying about bumping the opponents thread.

3/ MORE (untrustworthy and selfish reasons) negative and bogus reasons to apply merit to certain members who promote your fav projects now. The more financial incentive we keep giving to abuse merit (well you can't even abuse it in it's current form since it is totally subjective and even when the post is debunked clearly people still apply merits because they want it to be true ) the more it will just become used for selfish gain and nothing to do really with the objective MERIT of the post.

Seems rather crazy to keep heaping financial rewards on those that abuse the merit system successfully.

While merit is not anywhere near a reliable or safe metric we need to reduce dependency on those scores to the max.

The only objective metric we have is activity. Activity takes "the min same time" for everyone to accrue. Activity needs to be given max reward for positive and max punishment for negative behavior. You try to base anything off of a subjective easily gamed metrics alone and at the same time place reward  for successful gaming of it = folly.

Solve one problem, more problems will appear.

Get the foundation layer you are trying to build things on top of solid first and at least difficult to abuse first. You are building on quicksand right now.

There is no solution as good as an objective standard of moderation and rewarding and punishing of a  NON gameable  objective metric like activity. Use the min time required for all members to gain high activity as the basis for these systems. Merit is broken what more proof could you have than meta board lol.  

Higher activity higher bump power - with under 50 having zero. A small merit weighting.
Get caught in fake conversations ( a sensible and effective activity reduction and sigs turned off for a year)

Let's get merit to a standard that it actually represents anything tangible before we start giving more incentive to game it.

That's our suggestion. However, since you have not seemed to realize clearly that merit is used to create echo chambers and serve as a tool to ensure those controlling it use it for their own personal financial gain then we know it is near pointless to expect any kind of reasoned debate on it.

It is likely less dangerous to allow anarchy than to concentrate power and governance to a tight knit circle of proven scammers and trust/merit abusers. These are free now to increase their own power in many effective ways and punish in many effective ways any that dare to notice, accountable only to themselves. Thread bumping payments will be the next thing meta board gang will be into.

A for effort
D for net positive effect

probably better than doing nothing... perhaps.

Sorry just our honest opinion. Why not recognize merit is not a reliable metric and is actually dangerous?

It is possible we are not fully getting this new proposal this time, so feel free to debunk these points, since we are open to finding the optimal solution.










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September 11, 2019, 02:19:46 PM
 #43

So, in this scenario older members with a lot of merits would bump old topics from now-defunct or not interesting coins purely out of spite for shitcoins (yeah I call them shitcoins, not altcoins or tokens) so that no new project will be able to make it to the first or even second page, thus sabotaging the entire board?

Sounds even more costly than keeping one thread bumped to the front page so I'd say it's unlikely but TBH what possible "new" project could genuinely be worth to be up there? If something truly innovative comes along (like Ethereum, Grin, etc) I'm sure there will be enough support to push it up.

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September 11, 2019, 02:31:43 PM
Last edit: September 11, 2019, 02:51:15 PM by hosseinimr93
 #44

I just checked the last page of some topics that are on the top of Announcements (Altcoins) board. Except a few ones, all of them include posts by high-merit users. Now at the time of writing a random topic which has posted in 2014 and has not received any reply is on the second place. I think one of high-merit users has bumped that only for testing. (It's great that it is affected only in 36 hours)
It's great that I can see the threads that are of interest to high-merit users.

two suggestions:
-Now the effect of clicking on the "bump" button is 15 times the effect of making a post on a thread. As a user can give bump score to a thread once per 24 hours by clicking on "bump" button and once per 7 days by making a post, the effect of clicking on the "bump" is much more.
I suggest to decrease the effect of super bumps.
-A bad review shouldn't help a thread bump. So, users should be allowed to make posts on threads without giving them bump score.

Edit: Now it's really difficult for new topics to be on the top. I think the effect of topic starter can be considered more. In this case, If a thread is started by a high-merit user, it has a more chance to be on top at least for 36 hours.

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AdolfinWolf
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September 11, 2019, 02:39:25 PM
 #45

So basically this will mean that the Chipmixer ANN is going to be pinned on the top of the board for... for ever?
Or really, any ANN from a company where more senior members here have a vested interest in bumping the topic..?

Maybe an unintentional side effect, but that's really a massive advantage that they'd get over other companies/etc.
Or not... I don't know.

Bitcointalk seems to become more and more of an esoteric meritocracy.. Where people with higher ranks, or those who spent more time here, now also have a more powerful voice? Hmm. (Or am i understanding this wrong?)

As much as i disliked these threads with account farmers talking to each other, i don't know if such drastic measures are warranted, or if this is the right direction for Bitcointalk to move towards to. (Although i must admit: i haven't visited the altcoin boards in a long time, if ever.)

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September 11, 2019, 02:41:00 PM
 #46

So, in this scenario older members with a lot of merits would bump old topics from now-defunct or not interesting coins purely out of spite for shitcoins (yeah I call them shitcoins, not altcoins or tokens) so that no new project will be able to make it to the first or even second page, thus sabotaging the entire board?
It is possible and it could create mess. Imagine, first 4-5 pages filled with old dead threads.

Solution for this could be to not allow "old bumps", for example, making bump button unavailable for threads which are older than X months/years and/or no one posted anything in last X months/years.

Now at the time writing a random topic which has posted in 2014 and has not received any reply is on the second place. I think one of high-merit users has bumped that only for testing.
I am going to report you to your signature manager right now  Grin

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September 11, 2019, 02:42:02 PM
 #47

Now the effect of clicking on the "bump" button is 15 times the effect of making a post on a thread.

85 times actually, but it decreases with every super bump.

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September 11, 2019, 02:45:08 PM
 #48

TBH what possible "new" project could genuinely be worth to be up there?

Hmm, I don't think we have enough to fill a full-page, and the ones that have proven themselves have fled and are running their own forums, giving little attention to their original ann that made them famous.

Sounds even more costly than keeping one thread bumped to the front page

The cost thing is a bit different here, or at least in my opinion.
Trying to bump a topic requires money, sabotaging the alt board requires hate.
And there is a lot of hate for shitcoins (yeah, I won't play the innocent kitty card here), and most of it comes from older members with a lot of bumping power...

And speaking of power, is it something wrong with my internet (I'm on 2g near a mountain top  Grin) or the topic bumped my marlboroza is still the second one on that page and the one he "mini bumped if I understand the term correctly is 4th?

Also, one tiny request to our friendly AIs, although I'm pretty sure we will see the stats soon, can somebody log the activity in the new boards so we can see the impact? If there will be any, of course.


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September 11, 2019, 02:48:21 PM
 #49

So basically this will mean that the Chipmixer ANN is going to be pinned on the top of the board for... for ever?
Lol, until I read your post, I didn't even realize that thread is on a board that's influenced by these changes. And indeed, it's on top of Service Announcement.
I posted there before realizing it uses my new bumping power.

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September 11, 2019, 02:51:05 PM
 #50

So basically this will mean that the Chipmixer ANN is going to be pinned on the top of the board for... for ever?
Lol, until I read your post, I didn't even realize that thread is on a board that's influenced by these changes. And indeed, it's on top of Service Announcement.
I posted there before realizing it uses my new bumping power.

Mt. Gox thread is up there as well, so it balances out.

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September 11, 2019, 03:00:39 PM
 #51

So basically this will mean that the Chipmixer ANN is going to be pinned on the top of the board for... for ever?
Or really, any ANN from a company where more senior members here have a vested interest in bumping the topic..?

Maybe an unintentional side effect, but that's really a massive advantage that they'd get over other companies/etc.
Or not... I don't know.

Bitcointalk seems to become more and more of an esoteric meritocracy.. Where people with higher ranks, or those who spent more time here, now also have a more powerful voice? Hmm. (Or am i understanding this wrong?)

As much as i disliked these threads with account farmers talking to each other, i don't know if such drastic measures are warranted, or if this is the right direction for Bitcointalk to move towards to. (Although i must admit: i haven't visited the altcoin boards in a long time, if ever.)

While the side effect may be providing long time users with an advantage, ultimately I think the primary goal is to restrict new users, simply based on the fact that it is simpler to set up sock puppets on newer accounts to spam. I am sure if it was possible to prevent abuse otherwise, Theymos would let noobs post without even logging in. Sadly that is not possible.


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The-One-Above-All
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September 11, 2019, 03:24:52 PM
Last edit: September 11, 2019, 03:55:07 PM by The-One-Above-All
 #52

So basically this will mean that the Chipmixer ANN is going to be pinned on the top of the board for... for ever?
Or really, any ANN from a company where more senior members here have a vested interest in bumping the topic..?

Maybe an unintentional side effect, but that's really a massive advantage that they'd get over other companies/etc.
Or not... I don't know.

Bitcointalk seems to become more and more of an esoteric meritocracy.. Where people with higher ranks, or those who spent more time here, now also have a more powerful voice? Hmm. (Or am i understanding this wrong?)

As much as i disliked these threads with account farmers talking to each other, i don't know if such drastic measures are warranted, or if this is the right direction for Bitcointalk to move towards to. (Although i must admit: i haven't visited the altcoin boards in a long time, if ever.)

While the side effect may be providing long time users with an advantage, ultimately I think the primary goal is to restrict new users, simply based on the fact that it is simpler to set up sock puppets on newer accounts to spam. I am sure if it was possible to prevent abuse otherwise, Theymos would let noobs post without even logging in. Sadly that is not possible.

Longer time user = more advantage in bumping with no other consideration would be okay. There is a very very strong merit anchor to their advantage. So some of the devs there will not be able to bump their own threads and they are the most important announcements.

Legend members need earned merits or they are noobs now.

Merit is becoming a very financially rewarding metric to game and it is wide open to gaming. You really want old members that also have LOTS of earned merits if you want to push your project regardless of whether they make good posts or are valuable real members of your community. CHipmixer is going to do well and so are any projects pushed by the SAME GANG. This is going to push scampaign managers to not even bother with manual review of posting quality now.... projects will want MORE MERITS pushers now regardless of whether their posts are good or not. This defeats any idea of getting campaign managers to review people manually for post quality and trust not just accept gamed metrics. The projects will insist they suck up the gamed merits score junk.

It is good activity is at least included here, but merit is given too much weight again.

junior with some small earned recent merits now trumps legend developer even regular posting legend devs who just don't get much merits because merit sources " don't bother with the alt sections according to them since they have them on ignore " lol

We best get the devs of any projects and their key community members over to meta board to apply for merit source or at least get feltching for merits.
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September 11, 2019, 04:22:18 PM
 #53

The incremental advantage to being a long time member stops at one year in relation to their ability to bump after a year. I don’t think it is unreasonable to give those who have been around less than a year a disadvantage for these types of threads. This favors more established businesses who are less likely to end in losses to customers.

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September 11, 2019, 04:27:47 PM
Last edit: September 11, 2019, 04:50:38 PM by JollyGood
 #54

I bumped oldest (not locked) thread I could find and it seems working.

We should see how this is working in a few days, when spambies realize that their weather forecast discussion won't bump threads any more.


The weather forecast discussions that took place in several threads were the lowest of the low type of bumping along with the one word posts in their fake conversations.

Got to laugh at spambies though  Grin




So basically this will mean that the Chipmixer ANN is going to be pinned on the top of the board for... for ever?
Or really, any ANN from a company where more senior members here have a vested interest in bumping the topic..?

Maybe an unintentional side effect, but that's really a massive advantage that they'd get over other companies/etc.
Or not... I don't know.

Bitcointalk seems to become more and more of an esoteric meritocracy.. Where people with higher ranks, or those who spent more time here, now also have a more powerful voice? Hmm. (Or am i understanding this wrong?)

As much as i disliked these threads with account farmers talking to each other, i don't know if such drastic measures are warranted, or if this is the right direction for Bitcointalk to move towards to. (Although i must admit: i haven't visited the altcoin boards in a long time, if ever.)

I have some concerns too if I am reading and interpreting the OP correctly.

I am not sure if those having higher ranks should automatically be given a more powerful voice by default. There can be a mechanism in place to select users as representatives by a vote based system but this should be fair and consistent if implemented.

Scammers will always find a way around any form of censorship so that should be at the forefront of the debate.

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September 11, 2019, 04:45:24 PM
 #55

I love it, it's like we have three new board with really valuable information that I can peruse.  I even found some threads worth reading at the top of the Altcoin Ann board.

The only trouble is I'm tempted to reply to threads that haven't seen daylight since 2015...  Roll Eyes
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September 11, 2019, 05:08:25 PM
 #56

I love it, it's like we have three new board with really valuable information that I can peruse.  I even found some threads worth reading at the top of the Altcoin Ann board.

Some are already using their powerbumps to bump shitcoins, it would appear. Some people have no shame!

Also its funny to see 3 Piston Honda comments on the first Alt ANN page  Cheesy

I'm already enjoying this quite a bit.

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September 11, 2019, 05:12:52 PM
 #57

Unless I am missing something, which is possible, a potential issue I see is that a few people with a lot of posts and merit can band together to keep a pet project on top.

Odds are it's not going to happen, and I might be 100% wrong on how I am reading it, but couldn't a band of a few high post / high merit legendary users keep the davecoin post on top?

-Dave


That's pretty much the idea here. Multiple high-merit users - if you can get them interested in davecoin - constantly (keep in mind the 36-hour decay) posting in your thread or super-bumping it would result in a higher bump score, vs newbie spam farms bumping threads with fake "conversations". It's possible to game the system but it seems that it would be quite hard to do so and you still have to compete with popular projects that "organically" have high bump scores.

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September 11, 2019, 05:40:21 PM
Merited by _Miracle (1)
 #58

SWEET. 

I honestly wasn't expecting Theymos to take any action on the crazy-ass bumping fiasco going on in the ANN and related sections.  I figured it was going to remain the responsibility of the mods and the motivated members who do the reporting.  Great to see that Theymos came up with a pretty creative solution--and though it's long overdue, it's much appreciated.  This crap doesn't affect me in the least, since I haven't visited any of those sections in quite a while, but I'm well aware how most threads are being unscrupulously manipulated in order to keep them visible and thus attract the most suckers.  That's always been a bad situation.

Some are already using their powerbumps to bump shitcoins, it would appear. Some people have no shame!
Not surprising.  Anything that can be abused on this forum will get abused eventually.  And usually it doesn't take too long.

I'm already enjoying this quite a bit.
Me as well.

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September 11, 2019, 05:48:31 PM
 #59

I just sorted the topics on Announcements (Altcoins) by the last post. 21 posts that were on the first page when sorted by bump score remained on the first page after new sorting. It's 64% of the topics on the first page. (The total number of topics that are shown in the first page is 33). This percentage should increase over time. Gradually, number of the spam posts that used to make on some topics decreases and posts shown when sorted by bump score and the last post becomes more similar with each other as spammers leave the board.

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September 11, 2019, 06:38:52 PM
Merited by Welsh (2), stompix (1)
 #60

I'm not going to be reporting self bumps in these sections anymore

I think reporting posts within the last 36 hours could still be worth it as those posts can potentially affect the bump score.

We also need to keep an eye on the shitbumpers spilling over into other boards, like Altcoin Discussion,  Service Announcements (Altcoins) - this one should really have the new sort algo applied, etc. I don't think they will give up easily.

For example - covert ANNs in Altcoin Discussion:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5183790.0
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5183777.0
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5183667.0

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