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Author Topic: Vid of Biden admit bribe of Ukrainian Pres. to fire prosecutor investigating son  (Read 2025 times)
Viper1
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November 07, 2019, 08:22:31 AM
 #261

We must have went back and forth on the subpoenas 30+ times.  I absolutely disagree with your logic and I'm fairly confident the subpoenas are enforceable.
Not worth discussing it with him. The court has ruled that the congress are within their legal rights to conduct their oversight/impeachment inquiry etc and thus their subpoenas are legal. When asked to provide government documentation of proof of his claim he has failed to do so and just founders around with non applicable stuff.

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November 07, 2019, 08:40:31 AM
Merited by nutildah (1)
 #262

This is an actual subpoena: https://oversight.house.gov/sites/democrats.oversight.house.gov/files/documents/(70)%20Chaffetz%20Subpoena%20to%20Pagliano%2009-16-2016.pdf

This is NOT a subpoena: https://oversight.house.gov/sites/democrats.oversight.house.gov/files/documents/2019-09-27.EEC%20Engel%20Schiff%20%20to%20Pompeo-%20State%20re%20Document%20Subpoena.pdf

Some times the law is very black and white, and it is that way when it comes to legally enforceable documents. They have to be constructed in a specific way and include very specific information to be actionable.

here are the requirements for a subpoena to be actionable: https://www.law.cornell.edu/rules/frcp/rule_45

Your so called "subpoena" includes none of this information or other basic foundational requirements for a subpoena to function and be valid. A judge will never rule on it because there is nothing to take legal action on, it was a letter requesting information. Nothing more.

I'll read that article later.

You're right, that's a letter not a subpoena.  The subpoena would've been sent along with the letter explaining everything.  (idiot Shocked)
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November 07, 2019, 09:20:23 AM
 #263

You're right, that's a letter not a subpoena.  The subpoena would've been sent along with the letter explaining everything.  (idiot Shocked)
The document he provided is for a court of law, not for oversight/impeachment.

The "letter" states it's a subpoena and has all the information required in it.

The government form he provided as "proof" was just the form. On the page itself it states it is only meant as a sample for the information required for a hearing.

I provided the senate handbook which has an impeachment subpoena in the form of a letter.

He has yet to provide any government documents that states exactly what is required for a subpoena and has said he won't. So basically, he refused to back up his claim and dances around it instead. So now there's no point continuing.


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November 07, 2019, 09:23:32 AM
 #264

You're right, that's a letter not a subpoena.  The subpoena would've been sent along with the letter explaining everything.  (idiot Shocked)
The document he provided is for a court of law, not for oversight/impeachment.

The "letter" states it's a subpoena and has all the information required in it.

The government form he provided as "proof" was just the form. On the page itself it states it is only meant as a sample for the information required for a hearing.

I provided the senate handbook which has an impeachment subpoena in the form of a letter.

He has yet to provide any government documents that states exactly what is required for a subpoena and has said he won't. So basically, he refused to back up his claim and dances around it instead. So now there's no point continuing.



Na, the subpoena would be enclosed with that letter.  It's like a cover letter.  They come in a big envelope with a bunch of other legal stuff about your rights and reference material.
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November 07, 2019, 09:28:47 AM
 #265

Check out the Subpoena Schiff sent Esper: https://intelligence.house.gov/uploadedfiles/2019-10-07.eec_engel_schiff_to_esper-dod_re_subpoena.pdf








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November 07, 2019, 09:44:22 AM
 #266


Don't know what you're saying. The "letter" he claims is not a subpoena says it's a subpoena and is authorized by the committee via all those sorts of signatures.

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November 07, 2019, 09:49:00 AM
 #267


Don't know what you're saying. The "letter" he claims is not a subpoena says it's a subpoena and is authorized by the committee via all those sorts of signatures.


It says "we are hereby transmitting a subpoena".  When he says "this subpoena" in the next paragraph, he's referring to the subpoena that is being transmitted, not the actual document you're reading.  The same language "this subpoena" is used in the letter to Epser, which is clearly not a subpoena since it concludes with "the enclosed subpoena".

It's totally standard to include a letter explaining what the subpoena is all about since the actual subpoena doesn't have much detail.

I've been subpoenaed.
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November 07, 2019, 09:56:27 AM
 #268

It says "we are hereby transmitting a subpoena".  When he says "this subpoena" in the next paragraph, he's referring to the subpoena that is being transmitted, not the actual document you're reading.  The same language "this subpoena" is used in the letter to Epser, which is clearly not a subpoena since it concludes with "the enclosed subpoena".

It's totally standard to include a letter explaining what the subpoena is all about since the actual subpoena doesn't have much detail.

I've been subpoenaed.
Oh good lord. So are you telling me that his reams and reams of posting about this thing can be summed up by as him deflecting to the cover letter as opposed to the other piece of paper which is the enclosed subpoena? He could have simply said that and ended the entire topic? I do note that the other letter also had enclosures. So much wasted time.

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November 07, 2019, 10:02:47 AM
 #269

It says "we are hereby transmitting a subpoena".  When he says "this subpoena" in the next paragraph, he's referring to the subpoena that is being transmitted, not the actual document you're reading.  The same language "this subpoena" is used in the letter to Epser, which is clearly not a subpoena since it concludes with "the enclosed subpoena".

It's totally standard to include a letter explaining what the subpoena is all about since the actual subpoena doesn't have much detail.

I've been subpoenaed.
Oh good lord. So are you telling me that his reams and reams of posting about this thing can be summed up by as him deflecting to the cover letter as opposed to the other piece of paper which is the enclosed subpoena? He could have simply said that and ended the entire topic? I do note that the other letter also had enclosures. So much wasted time.

I imagine TECSHARE really believed that Schiff decided to send a 'fake subpoena' because he knew that the whole thing was an illegal witch hunt but maybe they'd think the fake subpoena was a real subpoena.

In reality he probably could've just sent a letter saying THIS IS YOUR SUBPOENA and it would still be binding.
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November 07, 2019, 10:12:12 AM
 #270

It says "we are hereby transmitting a subpoena".  When he says "this subpoena" in the next paragraph, he's referring to the subpoena that is being transmitted, not the actual document you're reading.  The same language "this subpoena" is used in the letter to Epser, which is clearly not a subpoena since it concludes with "the enclosed subpoena".

It's totally standard to include a letter explaining what the subpoena is all about since the actual subpoena doesn't have much detail.

I've been subpoenaed.
Oh good lord. So are you telling me that his reams and reams of posting about this thing can be summed up by as him deflecting to the cover letter as opposed to the other piece of paper which is the enclosed subpoena? He could have simply said that and ended the entire topic? I do note that the other letter also had enclosures. So much wasted time.

I imagine TECSHARE really believed that Schiff decided to send a 'fake subpoena' because he knew that the whole thing was an illegal witch hunt but maybe they'd think the fake subpoena was a real subpoena.

In reality he probably could've just sent a letter saying THIS IS YOUR SUBPOENA and it would still be binding.
That letter used the same terminology and some enclosures.

I'm still waiting for TECH to provide proof of what the subpoena is supposed to contain/look like. Not going to hold his hand though. It was entertaining for awhile to play his game but I'm over it.

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November 07, 2019, 10:17:33 AM
 #271

It says "we are hereby transmitting a subpoena".  When he says "this subpoena" in the next paragraph, he's referring to the subpoena that is being transmitted, not the actual document you're reading.  The same language "this subpoena" is used in the letter to Epser, which is clearly not a subpoena since it concludes with "the enclosed subpoena".

It's totally standard to include a letter explaining what the subpoena is all about since the actual subpoena doesn't have much detail.

I've been subpoenaed.
Oh good lord. So are you telling me that his reams and reams of posting about this thing can be summed up by as him deflecting to the cover letter as opposed to the other piece of paper which is the enclosed subpoena? He could have simply said that and ended the entire topic? I do note that the other letter also had enclosures. So much wasted time.

I imagine TECSHARE really believed that Schiff decided to send a 'fake subpoena' because he knew that the whole thing was an illegal witch hunt but maybe they'd think the fake subpoena was a real subpoena.

In reality he probably could've just sent a letter saying THIS IS YOUR SUBPOENA and it would still be binding.
That letter used the same terminology and some enclosures.

I'm still waiting for TECH to provide proof of what the subpoena is supposed to contain/look like. Not going to hold his hand though. It was entertaining for awhile to play his game but I'm over it.


Oh I'm sure he'll just admit he was wrong, learn from his mistake and move on like the man he is.
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November 07, 2019, 10:18:57 AM
 #272

It says "we are hereby transmitting a subpoena".  When he says "this subpoena" in the next paragraph, he's referring to the subpoena that is being transmitted, not the actual document you're reading.  The same language "this subpoena" is used in the letter to Epser, which is clearly not a subpoena since it concludes with "the enclosed subpoena".

It's totally standard to include a letter explaining what the subpoena is all about since the actual subpoena doesn't have much detail.

I've been subpoenaed.
Oh good lord. So are you telling me that his reams and reams of posting about this thing can be summed up by as him deflecting to the cover letter as opposed to the other piece of paper which is the enclosed subpoena? He could have simply said that and ended the entire topic? I do note that the other letter also had enclosures. So much wasted time.

I imagine TECSHARE really believed that Schiff decided to send a 'fake subpoena' because he knew that the whole thing was an illegal witch hunt but maybe they'd think the fake subpoena was a real subpoena.

In reality he probably could've just sent a letter saying THIS IS YOUR SUBPOENA and it would still be binding.

No, he couldn't, because a subpoena has to have specific legal information included to be actionable legally. He can request whatever he wants, in order to have an enforceable penalty (the definition of subpoena), it is a requirement certain foundational information be included, which is not. Just because they say subpoena is included doesn't mean one was. Can you provide me a copy of the ACTUAL subpoena issued before the official vote? I would love to see it, so far all I have seen were deceptively worded requests for information with no legal authority.

For the record-

This is an actual subpoena: https://oversight.house.gov/sites/democrats.oversight.house.gov/files/documents/(70)%20Chaffetz%20Subpoena%20to%20Pagliano%2009-16-2016.pdf

This is NOT a subpoena: https://oversight.house.gov/sites/democrats.oversight.house.gov/files/documents/2019-09-27.EEC%20Engel%20Schiff%20%20to%20Pompeo-%20State%20re%20Document%20Subpoena.pdf

here are the requirements for a subpoena to be actionable: https://www.law.cornell.edu/rules/frcp/rule_45


This is not a subpoena. See links above for why.


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November 07, 2019, 10:22:06 AM
 #273




Yeah we get it.  This is not a subpoena either: https://oversight.house.gov/sites/democrats.oversight.house.gov/files/documents/2019-09-27.EEC%20Engel%20Schiff%20%20to%20Pompeo-%20


It doesn't mean they didn't send an actual subpoena.
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November 07, 2019, 10:33:24 AM
 #274

In reality he probably could've just sent a letter saying THIS IS YOUR SUBPOENA and it would still be binding.
Probably not. Unlike TECH, I went and dug through a whole lot of government documents and, although I didn't read through all the various exception clauses, I think there is at least one particular requirement. But wanted to see if he was actually interested in and capable of coming up with it or not. He wasn't.

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November 07, 2019, 10:37:52 AM
 #275


Great. Document the ACTUAL subpoena then if it exists. Enjoy your snipe hunt.


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November 07, 2019, 10:45:48 AM
 #276


You really going to go with the "if the subpoena isn't on the internet then it must not exist" theory?

Who got it into your head that the cover letter for the subpoena was proof the subpoena wasn't an actual subpoena?
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November 07, 2019, 10:59:51 AM
 #277

You really going to go with the "if the subpoena isn't on the internet then it must not exist" theory?

Who got it into your head that the cover letter for the subpoena was proof the subpoena wasn't an actual subpoena?

No I am going to go with it is a public document and if it exists you should have no problem producing it theory. You claim it is real. Prove it. You have the burden of proof, no one can produce the ACTUAL subpoena issued before the official house vote. Like I said, enjoy the snipe hunt. Most likely you will just do more guffawing as you claim you are above having to prove such things to the chorus of your entourage chanting about Cheeto Hitler behind you. The fact is the subpoenas never existed and you refuse to admit it. The media and the Democrat party have been lying to you and you continue to defend them and insist they are telling the truth, yet some how no one can produce the documents? This isn't top secret stuff, this is public record. Where is it?


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November 07, 2019, 11:07:42 AM
 #278

You really going to go with the "if the subpoena isn't on the internet then it must not exist" theory?

Who got it into your head that the cover letter for the subpoena was proof the subpoena wasn't an actual subpoena?

No I am going to go with it is a public document and if it exists you should have no problem producing it theory.

Where are all the Congressional subpoenas located? If you know of a repository for all of them let me know please.  Not going to go file a FOIA.

 
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November 07, 2019, 12:24:35 PM
 #279

You really going to go with the "if the subpoena isn't on the internet then it must not exist" theory?

Who got it into your head that the cover letter for the subpoena was proof the subpoena wasn't an actual subpoena?

No I am going to go with it is a public document and if it exists you should have no problem producing it theory.

Where are all the Congressional subpoenas located? If you know of a repository for all of them let me know please.  Not going to go file a FOIA.

[listens to the sound of you making excuses, and crickets]


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November 07, 2019, 01:39:05 PM
 #280

This document was produced on September 16th, 2016, and wasn't uploaded to the website until November 14th, 2017 -- almost an entire year later.

Pretending the actual Pompeo subpoena document doesn't exist is a pretty stupid road to go down. Besides, who cares if we show it to you? You'll just weasel around having to admit you were wrong by declaring it to be bullying of Republicans and illegal, a witch hunt, circle jerk, whatever the nom du jour you have for something you don't like is when it happens.

If you read Schiff's letter, he doesn't even mention the documents being subpoenaed!

Quote
... we are hereby transmitting a subpoena that compels you to set for the documents in the accompanying schedule by October 4th...

The subpoena document itself is a technicality. Just because it hasn't been published doesn't mean it doesn't actually exist. Let me guess, the House of Representatives are lying, and the entire media (all of it) is lying, but somehow you are right because you know better.  Roll Eyes

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