Vid of Biden admit bribe of Ukrainian Pres. to fire prosecutor investigating son

[TECSHARE]

Just to be clear, do you think the truth is the opposite of what she said in her email to herself?  How did the declassified paragraph change anything then?  Everything else was declassified in 2018.

The article you linked, and much of the right wing media are making the 'smoking gun' out to be the fact that Obama and Comey discussed the possibility of limiting the amount of classified information involving Russia that Flynn was exposed to during the transition.

The email just documents what she was told. Like I said, this is her covering her ass. I don't know what she was told. I do know she emailed herself to document what she was told, and the most likely explanation for that is she didn't believe what she was told, and didn't want to be the one held responsible for these crimes.

The reason that is a big deal is because if they had information to support the claim that Flynn was working with the Russians, they had no excuse to not inform the incoming president about this so he could take precautions. So in the end this is not just about keeping Flynn in the dark, it is about keeping the president in the dark. If they really believed Flynn did this, they would intentionally be risking national security to go after Trump by not informing him. You can't have it both ways.

Now before you go right to saying they suspected him too, there is zero evidence to support any claim that Trump was involved with anything illegal involving the Russians after three years of endless investigations. The actions they took required warrants. Warrants require evidence. There is no evidence therefore the warrants were criminal acts under color of law.

[TwitchySeal]

I do know she emailed herself to document what she was told, and the most likely explanation for that is she didn't believe what she was told, and didn't want to be the one held responsible for these crimes.

I don't know for sure either, and I do agree that this was her covering her ass, but I just don't see how this could be interpreted as Rice trying not to become the fall guy for Obama.  It looks more like she was literally just keeping the record straight.

By law, her notes - and literally any other notes or emails involving the President or VP belongs in the Presidential records with plans to eventually be made public.  I don't think it's unreasonable to think on her last day of work (Inaguration) she was taking care of the last of whatever it takes to put things in the record.  I assume Obama, Biden and Comey all know how the system works and expected there to be a record of their meeting, like every other meeting.  I bet Comey filed a memo also considering it was one of the few times they ever spoke.

The reason that is a big deal is because if they had information to support the claim that Flynn was working with the Russians, they had no excuse to not inform the incoming president about this so he could take precautions. So in the end this is not just about keeping Flynn in the dark, it is about keeping the president in the dark. If they really believed Flynn did this, they would intentionally be risking national security to go after Trump by not informing him. You can't have it both ways.

It was about whether or not they could trust Flynn with sensitive information regarding Russia.

It was already known that there were connections between Trump, his family, his campaign and Russia.  In Flynns case, he was fired by Obama in 2014 as head of the DIA and a few months later was being paid by RT and having dinner with Putin.

Isn't that alone enough for Obama to ask Comey 'should I worry about what we hand over to Flynn about Russia right now?'.  I know it was only a couple weeks left, but he was still President and responsible for the country.  And he did reportedly warn Trump about Flynn.  Told him not to hire him.  Chris Christie (when he was head of transition) also said he was a train wreck waiting to happen or something.

[TECSHARE]

I do know she emailed herself to document what she was told, and the most likely explanation for that is she didn't believe what she was told, and didn't want to be the one held responsible for these crimes.

I don't know for sure either, and I do agree that this was her covering her ass, but I just don't see how this could be interpreted as Rice trying not to become the fall guy for Obama.  It looks more like she was literally just keeping the record straight.

By law, her notes - and literally any other notes or emails involving the President or VP belongs in the Presidential records with plans to eventually be made public.  I don't think it's unreasonable to think on her last day of work (Inaguration) she was taking care of the last of whatever it takes to put things in the record.  I assume Obama, Biden and Comey all know how the system works and expected there to be a record of their meeting, like every other meeting.  I bet Comey filed a memo also considering it was one of the few times they ever spoke.

The reason that is a big deal is because if they had information to support the claim that Flynn was working with the Russians, they had no excuse to not inform the incoming president about this so he could take precautions. So in the end this is not just about keeping Flynn in the dark, it is about keeping the president in the dark. If they really believed Flynn did this, they would intentionally be risking national security to go after Trump by not informing him. You can't have it both ways.

It was about whether or not they could trust Flynn with sensitive information regarding Russia.

It was already known that there were connections between Trump, his family, his campaign and Russia.  In Flynns case, he was fired by Obama in 2014 as head of the DIA and a few months later was being paid by RT and having dinner with Putin.

Isn't that alone enough for Obama to ask Comey 'should I worry about what we hand over to Flynn about Russia right now?'.  I know it was only a couple weeks left, but he was still President and responsible for the country.  And he did reportedly warn Trump about Flynn.  Told him not to hire him.  Chris Christie (when he was head of transition) also said he was a train wreck waiting to happen or something.

If this is not her covering her ass from becoming the fall guy, what is she covering her ass from exactly? Please do tell me the liability you think she is concerned about. Of course the emails are part of the record, that is why she emailed herself explicitly to make it part of public record. Not all meetings are transcribed and recorded.

Yes, we get it, that is the pretext for the Flynn investigation. That still doesn't explain what evidence they had to get the warrant to begin with, and still doesn't explain why they did not inform Trump so he could take precautions to protect national security. Either they thought Flynn was a real threat or they didn't. Either they believed him to be a security risk, and put national security at risk to go after Trump by not informing him, or they knew it was a baseless illegal warrant used as pretext to go after Trump. Telling him not to hire him is not the same as briefing him on a potential security threat, one which never existed by the way.

There are ZERO documented connections involving ANY criminal activity linking the Trump campaign and Russia. This claim is based on 3 years of baseless investigation relying upon illegal warrants and media hype. There is no substance behind any of these claims. You can swear up and down there are but you can't actually ever provide any evidence of it. That makes this whole freak show A TOTALLY ILLEGAL PARTISAN OPERATION utilizing the intelligence and surveillance apparatus of this nation in a criminal attempt to target a duly elected sitting president by the outgoing administration. This is unprecedented criminal behavior putting the very nation itself at risk by threatening the peaceful transition of power that marks an actual democracy.

[TwitchySeal]

I do know she emailed herself to document what she was told, and the most likely explanation for that is she didn't believe what she was told, and didn't want to be the one held responsible for these crimes.

I don't know for sure either, and I do agree that this was her covering her ass, but I just don't see how this could be interpreted as Rice trying not to become the fall guy for Obama.  It looks more like she was literally just keeping the record straight.

By law, her notes - and literally any other notes or emails involving the President or VP belongs in the Presidential records with plans to eventually be made public.  I don't think it's unreasonable to think on her last day of work (Inaguration) she was taking care of the last of whatever it takes to put things in the record.  I assume Obama, Biden and Comey all know how the system works and expected there to be a record of their meeting, like every other meeting.  I bet Comey filed a memo also considering it was one of the few times they ever spoke.

The reason that is a big deal is because if they had information to support the claim that Flynn was working with the Russians, they had no excuse to not inform the incoming president about this so he could take precautions. So in the end this is not just about keeping Flynn in the dark, it is about keeping the president in the dark. If they really believed Flynn did this, they would intentionally be risking national security to go after Trump by not informing him. You can't have it both ways.

It was about whether or not they could trust Flynn with sensitive information regarding Russia.

It was already known that there were connections between Trump, his family, his campaign and Russia.  In Flynns case, he was fired by Obama in 2014 as head of the DIA and a few months later was being paid by RT and having dinner with Putin.

Isn't that alone enough for Obama to ask Comey 'should I worry about what we hand over to Flynn about Russia right now?'.  I know it was only a couple weeks left, but he was still President and responsible for the country.  And he did reportedly warn Trump about Flynn.  Told him not to hire him.  Chris Christie (when he was head of transition) also said he was a train wreck waiting to happen or something.

If this is not her covering her ass from becoming the fall guy, what is she covering her ass from exactly? Please do tell me the liability you think she is concerned about. Of course the emails are part of the record, that is why she emailed herself explicitly to make it part of public record. Not all meetings are transcribed and recorded.

Yes, we get it, that is the pretext for the Flynn investigation. That still doesn't explain what evidence they had to get the warrant to begin with, and still doesn't explain why they did not inform Trump so he could take precautions to protect national security. Either they thought Flynn was a real threat or they didn't. Either they believed him to be a security risk, and put national security at risk to go after Trump by not informing him, or they knew it was a baseless illegal warrant used as pretext to go after Trump. Telling him not to hire him is not the same as briefing him on a potential security threat, one which never existed by the way.

There are ZERO documented connections involving ANY criminal activity linking the Trump campaign and Russia. This claim is based on 3 years of baseless investigation relying upon illegal warrants and media hype. There is no substance behind any of these claims. You can swear up and down there are but you can't actually ever provide any evidence of it. That makes this whole freak show A TOTALLY ILLEGAL PARTISAN OPERATION utilizing the intelligence and surveillance apparatus of this nation in a criminal attempt to target a duly elected sitting president by the outgoing administration. This is unprecedented criminal behavior putting the very nation itself at risk by threatening the peaceful transition of power that marks an actual democracy.

I think it's possible that Obama truly did make an effort to put a wall between himself and any criminal investigation into ties between Trump campaign and Russia and focus only the National Security side of things.  There's obviously a bit of overlap, which makes things tricky and all the more reason to make the record very clear the motivations for his actions.

The now public Rice email seems to be doing just that.  

You're right about the Warrant thing.  The FISA system is a mess and the FBI basically just exploited it.  I don't want to have another Russia collusion debate on what we learned years later, but I agree with you that in Jan 2017 the FBI did not have solid evidence that a crime was committed.  There was smoke though.  And the FISA warrants had nothing to do with spying on Russians.  We have to spy on Russia.

I'm not sure if you believe it or not, but let's assume for sake of argument that the FBI had intercepted a call between Flynn and Russian Ambassador where Flynn told the Ambassador not to worry about the sanctions.

Is that a crime?  I honestly don't know.  I do think it's a big deal though.  A retired 3 star general who had served as director of the DIA (basically the CIA for just the military) under Obama for 2 years, undermining the administration by telling our enemy not to worry about the sanctions his president had just applied.

If all that really happened, what's the right thing to do?

And what do you do when you see Flynn lie about it to Pence and Spicer, who turned around and told the Nation?

In hindsight, they probably just should've let Flynn get away with it.  But at the time they didn't know what else Flynn, the National Security Advisor to the President, was lying about.

[TECSHARE]

I think it's possible that Obama truly did make an effort to put a wall between himself and any criminal investigation into ties between Trump campaign and Russia and focus only the National Security side of things.  There's obviously a bit of overlap, which makes things tricky and all the more reason to make the record very clear the motivations for his actions.

The now public Rice email seems to be doing just that.  

You're right about the Warrant thing.  The FISA system is a mess and the FBI basically just exploited it.  I don't want to have another Russia collusion debate on what we learned years later, but I agree with you that in Jan 2017 the FBI did not have solid evidence that a crime was committed.  There was smoke though.  And the FISA warrants had nothing to do with spying on Russians.  We have to spy on Russia.

I'm not sure if you believe it or not, but let's assume for sake of argument that the FBI had intercepted a call between Flynn and Russian Ambassador where Flynn told the Ambassador not to worry about the sanctions.

Is that a crime?  I honestly don't know.  I do think it's a big deal though.  A retired 3 star general who had served as director of the DIA (basically the CIA for just the military) under Obama for 2 years, undermining the administration by telling our enemy not to worry about the sanctions his president had just applied.

If all that really happened, what's the right thing to do?

And what do you do when you see Flynn lie about it to Pence and Spicer, who turned around and told the Nation?

In hindsight, they probably just should've let Flynn get away with it.  But at the time they didn't know what else Flynn, the National Security Advisor to the President, was lying about.

Get away with what? Not committing a crime? I like how you phrase this as if Obama was looking out for national security instead of violating it by using its intelligence networks in a criminal plot to overthrow a duly elected president. All the Rice email shows is she knew she was being set up as a patsy and wasn't having it. Of course you don't want to have a debate over "Russian collusion", because you were dead fucking wrong, it never happened, and you have no evidence to support that assertion, so lets never mind that right?

"Smoke" (whatever the fuck that means) is not a valid metric for a FISA warrant.

"FISA application requires the court find probable cause that the target of the surveillance be a "foreign power" or an "agent of a foreign power"[22] inside the United States[21] and that the places at which surveillance is requested is used or will be used by that foreign power or its agent.[22] In addition, the court must find that the proposed surveillance meet certain "minimization requirements" for information pertaining to U.S. persons.[23][21] If the foreign power’s suspected agent communicates with Americans, the communications of citizens of the United States are incidentally intercepted even though they are not the targets of the surveillance.[21]"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_Intelligence_Surveillance_Act#Warrantless_domestic_wiretapping_program

The basis for the Flynn warrant was the investigation into the manufactured accusations of illegal Turkish lobbying ties (not anything to do with Russia).

https://www.justice.gov/opa/press-release/file/1120621/download

It has already been demonstrated that Flynn dutifully reported his ties to these people, and lying about it would be pointless because it was already a matter of record, and he knew this. This the entire warrant "probable cause" was nothing more than an illegal manufactured parallel construction in order to violate protections for wiretapping laws of US citizens. Lying to obtain FISA warrants is a crime. Illegally spying is a crime. Attempting to unseat a duly elected president is treason. "Is that a crime?" you ask? Yes, one punishable by death.

[TwitchySeal]

It has already been demonstrated that Flynn dutifully reported his ties to these people, and lying about it would be pointless because it was already a matter of record, and he knew this.

When Trump fired Flynn he said it was for lying to the VP.

I think Flynn did lie about his conversations with the Russian ambassador and Trump was right to fire him for it.

What do you think really happened?

[TECSHARE]

It has already been demonstrated that Flynn dutifully reported his ties to these people, and lying about it would be pointless because it was already a matter of record, and he knew this.

When Trump fired Flynn he said it was for lying to the VP.

I think Flynn did lie about his conversations with the Russian ambassador and Trump was right to fire him for it.

What do you think really happened?

Nice strawman. Care to address any of the actual premises I presented?

[TwitchySeal]

It has already been demonstrated that Flynn dutifully reported his ties to these people, and lying about it would be pointless because it was already a matter of record, and he knew this.

When Trump fired Flynn he said it was for lying to the VP.

I think Flynn did lie about his conversations with the Russian ambassador and Trump was right to fire him for it.

What do you think really happened?

Nice strawman. Care to address any of the actual premises I presented?

I'm trying to have a discussion.

I responded directly to you about the fisa warrants, what I think Flynn did wrong, and I admitted there are parts of it that I"m not clear on legally.

When Trump fired Flynn he said it was for lying to the VP.  What do you think really happened?
I shared what I think most likely happened.  What do you think?

[TECSHARE]

I'm trying to have a discussion.

I responded directly to you about the fisa warrants, what I think Flynn did wrong, and I admitted there are parts of it that I"m not clear on legally.

When Trump fired Flynn he said it was for lying to the VP.  What do you think really happened?
I shared what I think most likely happened.  What do you think?

You aren't trying to have a discussion, you are trying to dictate the discussion with topic sliding. Instead of responding to my evidence that this investigation was criminal activity, you want to discuss personnel choices not related to criminal activity. Regardless of what you think, Trump has already stated he plans to bring Flynn back in to the cabinet, so it is highly likely his decision to remove him was based on the same fraud the criminal investigation was.

[TwitchySeal]

I'm trying to have a discussion.

I responded directly to you about the fisa warrants, what I think Flynn did wrong, and I admitted there are parts of it that I"m not clear on legally.

When Trump fired Flynn he said it was for lying to the VP.  What do you think really happened?
I shared what I think most likely happened.  What do you think?

You aren't trying to have a discussion, you are trying to dictate the discussion with topic sliding. Instead of responding to my evidence that this investigation was criminal activity, you want to discuss personnel choices not related to criminal activity. Regardless of what you think, Trump has already stated he plans to bring Flynn back in to the cabinet, so it is highly likely his decision to remove him was based on the same fraud the criminal investigation was.

You know I already agreed it was fucked up the way the FISA warrants were handled, right?  What else do you want me to address?

[Spendulus]

...

When Trump fired Flynn he said it was for lying to the VP.  What do you think really happened?
I shared what I think most likely happened.  What do you think?

....

I think he's always been very strict with high level employees. He's operating as if he was in a business, not politics. Scaramundi, Flynn, Manafort, many others fired. Others more politely asked to depart. He's not operating on the basis of political favors, so this is quite unexpected and incomprehensible to most people.

[TwitchySeal]

I think he's always been very strict with high level employees. He's operating as if he was in a business, not politics. Scaramundi, Flynn, Manafort, many others fired. Others more politely asked to depart. He's not operating on the basis of political favors, so this is quite unexpected and incomprehensible to most people.

Trump said he fired Flynn for lying to Pence and the FBI. Why do you think he said that?

[Spendulus]

I think he's always been very strict with high level employees. He's operating as if he was in a business, not politics. Scaramundi, Flynn, Manafort, many others fired. Others more politely asked to depart. He's not operating on the basis of political favors, so this is quite unexpected and incomprehensible to most people.

Trump said he fired Flynn for lying to Pence and the FBI. Why do you think he said that?

You and I think in very different ways.

I'm hesitant to guess at peoples' motives. Unless knowing a great deal about the people and the situation, there is zero chance of getting such a guess close to the actual motives. So I would shrug off such a thing, as a direction which was a waste of time.

You would pursue it, seeking an angle which was advantageous or supportive of something.

[TwitchySeal]

I think he's always been very strict with high level employees. He's operating as if he was in a business, not politics. Scaramundi, Flynn, Manafort, many others fired. Others more politely asked to depart. He's not operating on the basis of political favors, so this is quite unexpected and incomprehensible to most people.

Trump said he fired Flynn for lying to Pence and the FBI. Why do you think he said that?

You and I think in very different ways.

I'm hesitant to guess at peoples' motives. Unless knowing a great deal about the people and the situation, there is zero chance of getting such a guess close to the actual motives. So I would shrug off such a thing, as a direction which was a waste of time.

You would pursue it, seeking an angle which was advantageous or supportive of something.

The question: Why do you think Trump said he fired Flynn for lying?

The facts:
- Flynn admitted he lied about his conversation with Russian ambassador, multiple times, under oath.
- The FBI says Flynn lied.
- The DOJ says Flynn lied.
- Trump said Flynn lied.
- Trump fired Flynn.

Do you think there's a close to zero chance that Trump was just telling the truth?  That's my guess.

[TECSHARE]

You know I already agreed it was fucked up the way the FISA warrants were handled, right?  What else do you want me to address?

Yet at the same time you downplayed it by saying you don't think it was criminal activity. It was in fact not only criminal, but treasonous. Your little guessing game diversionary topic sliding is irrelevant.

[TwitchySeal]

You know I already agreed it was fucked up the way the FISA warrants were handled, right?  What else do you want me to address?

Yet at the same time you downplayed it by saying you don't think it was criminal activity. It was in fact not only criminal, but treasonous. Your little guessing game diversionary topic sliding is irrelevant.

The only people who have been convicted of felonies are the ones that were being investigated by Mueller, and working for Trump.  Not even an indictment when it comes to the 'investigate the investigators' investigation.  Durham isn't done yet, so that could still change.

[TECSHARE]

You know I already agreed it was fucked up the way the FISA warrants were handled, right?  What else do you want me to address?

Yet at the same time you downplayed it by saying you don't think it was criminal activity. It was in fact not only criminal, but treasonous. Your little guessing game diversionary topic sliding is irrelevant.

The only people who have been convicted of felonies are the ones that were being investigated by Mueller, and working for Trump.  Not even an indictment when it comes to the 'investigate the investigators' investigation.  Durham isn't done yet, so that could still change.

Again, more qualifiers so you can distract from the point. No one said anything about convictions, still the fact remains that faking evidence to get a FISA warrant is a serious crime in spite of your dithering over the matter.

[Spendulus]

You know I already agreed it was fucked up the way the FISA warrants were handled, right?  What else do you want me to address?

Yet at the same time you downplayed it by saying you don't think it was criminal activity. It was in fact not only criminal, but treasonous. Your little guessing game diversionary topic sliding is irrelevant.

The only people who have been convicted of felonies are the ones that were being investigated by Mueller, and working for Trump.  Not even an indictment when it comes to the 'investigate the investigators' investigation.  Durham isn't done yet, so that could still change.

Let me get this straight. I want to be sure I understand the REASONING in your argument.

Investigations of the past that are concluded, some have indictments and convictions. Investigations of the present that are active, do not have indictments and convictions.

I just don't know what to say.

[TECSHARE]

I do know she emailed herself to document what she was told, and the most likely explanation for that is she didn't believe what she was told, and didn't want to be the one held responsible for these crimes.

I don't know for sure either, and I do agree that this was her covering her ass, but I just don't see how this could be interpreted as Rice trying not to become the fall guy for Obama.  It looks more like she was literally just keeping the record straight.

By law, her notes - and literally any other notes or emails involving the President or VP belongs in the Presidential records with plans to eventually be made public.  I don't think it's unreasonable to think on her last day of work (Inaguration) she was taking care of the last of whatever it takes to put things in the record.  I assume Obama, Biden and Comey all know how the system works and expected there to be a record of their meeting, like every other meeting.  I bet Comey filed a memo also considering it was one of the few times they ever spoke.

The reason that is a big deal is because if they had information to support the claim that Flynn was working with the Russians, they had no excuse to not inform the incoming president about this so he could take precautions. So in the end this is not just about keeping Flynn in the dark, it is about keeping the president in the dark. If they really believed Flynn did this, they would intentionally be risking national security to go after Trump by not informing him. You can't have it both ways.

It was about whether or not they could trust Flynn with sensitive information regarding Russia.

It was already known that there were connections between Trump, his family, his campaign and Russia.  In Flynns case, he was fired by Obama in 2014 as head of the DIA and a few months later was being paid by RT and having dinner with Putin.

Isn't that alone enough for Obama to ask Comey 'should I worry about what we hand over to Flynn about Russia right now?'.  I know it was only a couple weeks left, but he was still President and responsible for the country.  And he did reportedly warn Trump about Flynn.  Told him not to hire him.  Chris Christie (when he was head of transition) also said he was a train wreck waiting to happen or something.

No, that is what YOU want it to be about. It is totally a irrelevant attempt at topic sliding away from the fact that the investigations into Flynn's alleged criminal activity was based on fraud. None of the bullshit you are trying to interject matters. He didn't warn him about a security threat, which means if he actually believed he was a threat, he was putting national security at risk. You can't have it both ways. Voicing opinions on suggestions to not hire him "or something" is not the same as warning him about a potential security threat no matter how much you want to claim it is to obfuscate the situation.

[TwitchySeal]

I do know she emailed herself to document what she was told, and the most likely explanation for that is she didn't believe what she was told, and didn't want to be the one held responsible for these crimes.

I don't know for sure either, and I do agree that this was her covering her ass, but I just don't see how this could be interpreted as Rice trying not to become the fall guy for Obama.  It looks more like she was literally just keeping the record straight.

By law, her notes - and literally any other notes or emails involving the President or VP belongs in the Presidential records with plans to eventually be made public.  I don't think it's unreasonable to think on her last day of work (Inaguration) she was taking care of the last of whatever it takes to put things in the record.  I assume Obama, Biden and Comey all know how the system works and expected there to be a record of their meeting, like every other meeting.  I bet Comey filed a memo also considering it was one of the few times they ever spoke.

The reason that is a big deal is because if they had information to support the claim that Flynn was working with the Russians, they had no excuse to not inform the incoming president about this so he could take precautions. So in the end this is not just about keeping Flynn in the dark, it is about keeping the president in the dark. If they really believed Flynn did this, they would intentionally be risking national security to go after Trump by not informing him. You can't have it both ways.

It was about whether or not they could trust Flynn with sensitive information regarding Russia.

It was already known that there were connections between Trump, his family, his campaign and Russia.  In Flynns case, he was fired by Obama in 2014 as head of the DIA and a few months later was being paid by RT and having dinner with Putin.

Isn't that alone enough for Obama to ask Comey 'should I worry about what we hand over to Flynn about Russia right now?'.  I know it was only a couple weeks left, but he was still President and responsible for the country.  And he did reportedly warn Trump about Flynn.  Told him not to hire him.  Chris Christie (when he was head of transition) also said he was a train wreck waiting to happen or something.

No, that is what YOU want it to be about. It is totally a irrelevant attempt at topic sliding away from the fact that the investigations into Flynn's alleged criminal activity was based on fraud.

it's not alleged.  he admitted it did it.