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Author Topic: Staff Dabs abusing merit?  (Read 2055 times)
TalkStar
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October 04, 2019, 05:49:49 PM
 #21

Basically merit sending completely depends on senders own mind and every single person have their own choice for meriting someone or not. OP if you think that every merit sender will appreciate all in a similar way then its not gonna be fair IMO. Giving merit is a great way of encouraging forum users to continue their best works for the community and in that purpose every merit sender have their personal tastes. Most interesting thing is that we can easily raise our finger against someone for giving merits on relatively lower quality post but we can't say anything for lots of unmerited good posts Smiley

I am not saying that its looking good to see merit on unnecessary post but in some cases senders give priority to encouragement rather than just giving.
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October 04, 2019, 06:30:58 PM
 #22

I am not sure he is a merit source but if he send the merit from source merit and the post may not be merit deserving then all you can do is appeal this to admin and he can review this and can remove the merit if its unnecessary.After seeing the other's replies this may not be considered as abusing but the user spending merit should spend in the right way.

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October 04, 2019, 08:50:00 PM
 #23

Who cares how Dabs is using his merit? If he wants to give 100 merit to a 5 year old one word post, why can't he? Pretty sure we are all free to do with our merit what we want.

The fact that there are even threads about this is irritating. I can understand if it's some guy meriting up a bunch of multi-accounts or something like that, but this clearly isn't the case here.

Why not ask him in PM before defaming him with an entire thread?

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LUCKMCFLY
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October 04, 2019, 10:56:38 PM
 #24

Oh please!

He is Dabs!, don't you know who you dare to accuse with such poor arguments?

If he wants to give his Merits 1,2,9,10,30, he can do it, I don't see any abuse there ...


 I'm sorry for you.



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October 05, 2019, 08:06:32 AM
Merited by Coolcryptovator (1)
 #25

I don't know if Dabs is a merit source,
Base on our merit source @cabalism13, Dabs is a merit source in our local section but I rarely see him sending merits to our section.

To be honest below post doesn't deserve even single merit from me even I am a merit source and I don't see how this post could consider even good post,

I got my tokens, but I'm not sure if I've received the Incent bonus.
Well, this is something suspicious. There are more merit worthy posts than this post and yet it receives 4 merits Huh

Why do we have to care about how others use their merits? They have rights to hold their merits or send them to any posts of any user they want. There is no official guide or rule on how to send merits. Ideally, merits should be sent to good posts, but it does not matter if someone sends merits to a funny one.
Merit can be send to anybody even a spammer and a shitposter. I believe that every sMerit holder has the right to send their sMerit to anybody and there is nothing we can do about it unless we will tweak the rules about sending merits.

Overall, I find it suspicious but like I said there is nothing we can do about it as they have rights to send it into every user they want.

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October 05, 2019, 08:30:29 AM
Last edit: October 05, 2019, 09:16:37 AM by LoyceV
 #26

MichaelX is a 4 year old user who's still a Newbie. He's not a spammer, so there's no damage to the forum by Meriting him. There's also nothing gained by MichaelX.
I sometimes send a lot of Merit to one user, and I don't think that's Merit abuse.

I commonly see one good post from a user, and then go through their history to merit even more of their posts, because if they have made one constructive post then they've likely made more.
I guess it's only a Merit source thing to have to search for good posts. I'm happy when I can "unload" a bunch of sMerit, and I'm happy to see new users who aren't spammers. They're the future of this forum (and Bitcoin)!

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October 05, 2019, 09:10:54 AM
Last edit: October 05, 2019, 05:59:20 PM by Welsh
Merited by redsn0w (2), vapourminer (1), JayJuanGee (1), DaveF (1), LoyceV (1), ScamViruS (1)
 #27

I commonly see one good post from a user, and then go through their history to merit even more of their posts, because if they have made one constructive post then they've likely made more. You can go through my merit history, and you'll see that I've done this a lot for multiple users of all kinds of ranks. Even, some of the highest merited users on the forum.

Especially when it comes to newbies. I think users are a little more willing to give merits to newbies who have made an effort with their post even if lets say a hero member made the same post, and they wouldn't have got merited for it. I think its in the nature of a lot of users to encourage newbies as much as possible.

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October 05, 2019, 10:42:24 AM
Merited by ScamViruS (1)
 #28

He is Dabs!, don't you know who you dare to accuse with such poor arguments?
So what? He is not God by the way.
Although this matter isn't much alarming but it doesn't mean OP should get punished. It should not handle like that you are showing. I think OP became afraid and that's why keep silent. I wouldn't like to discourage anyone there is that kind of case. Same on the other hand I don't like to involved to tag merit abuser if they are not related with sells.


If he wants to give his Merits 1,2,9,10,30, he can do it, I don't see any abuse there ...
No, he can't. Rules is same for everyone. If someone continue meriting on spam post like 3/4 word then likely he will no longer on merit source.

I'm sorry for you.
Same for you.


Seems everyone saying "Dabs" doesn't made mistake since he is a staff (I can understand). But you are all encouraging him sending merit on spam post. Lern to say which is good which is bad, you don't need take action or no need tag for that. But guid him where he should spend his merits.

Again although I am agree with you all that "Dabs" doesn't abuse merit but still I believe he should be more bit careful about his merit distribution.

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October 05, 2019, 12:03:50 PM
Last edit: October 05, 2019, 12:23:00 PM by Sancho18
 #29

I'm not sure that I fully understand how the list of DT is formed, but can this somehow be connected with this? It seems there, among other conditions, a sufficient number of users with a merit in the range of 10-250 is needed. Sorry if this looks stupid. I’m even sure that this has nothing to do with reality, I just don’t understand why to reward several old messages, if you can reward one with any amount of merit less than 50.

ps Taking this opportunity, I want to congratulate Dabs with adding to the DT list today, and express the hope that this will make the forum better. Smiley

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October 05, 2019, 01:54:15 PM
 #30

Coolcryptovator, I think its completely free to ask a question on this forum and I agree that OP did nothing wrong by opening this thread. I personally noticed this merit distribution, same as many others that not have too much sense, but most forum users still think that merits are being given only for quality posts, which of course is not the case.

Many users try to post best they can, but they very often remain unrewarded with merit, which certainly discourages them to try to be even better. Merit distribution is not perfect, neither will ever be - but merits distribution is not moderated (except in very rare cases).

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October 05, 2019, 01:58:51 PM
 #31

I commonly see one good post from a user, and then go through their history to merit even more of their posts, because if they have made one constructive post then they've likely made more. You can go through my merit history, and you'll see that I've done this a lot for multiple users of all kinds of ranks. Even, some of the highest merited users on the forum.

Especially when it comes to newbies. I think users are a little more willing to give merits to newbies or have made an effort with their post even if lets say a hero member made the same post, and they wouldn't have got merited for it. I think its in the nature of a lot of users to encourage newbies as much as possible.

Agree 100%. I am very stingy with merit. Yeah I know I should not be. I never really thought about it but now I have to go back and check to see if I gave more merit to people with higher or lower ranks and how much merit they have. I know I have not given at times when I look at the 1st post in the thread and see 30 people have given merit and I'm just thinking why bother sending one more.

Have to spend some time this week and see where and who I should send some merit to.

Which loops around to the 1st post in the thread. If I dump a bunch of merit on 2 or 3 people who threads I now look at again am I doing anything wrong? No I'm actually just fixing an oversight.

-Dave



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Dabs
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October 05, 2019, 04:01:57 PM
Merited by TMAN (10), Foxpup (3), LoyceV (2), vapourminer (1), JayJuanGee (1), TravelMug (1)
 #32

I don't look in this area often, or at all. But somehow I got mentioned and it popped up. I don't really have anything to say. sMerits can decay (or so it says)

Quote
You have received a total of 1 million merit. This is what determines your forum rank. You typically cannot lose this merit. You have 5 billion sendable merit (sMerit) which you can send to other people. There is no point in hoarding sMerit; keeping it yourself does not benefit you, and we reserve the right to decay unused sMerit in the future.

You are a merit source. The next 4 billion merit you spend will come from your source rather than your sMerit balance. Merit spent from your source will come back in 5 seconds. Unused source merit is wasted. It is not allowed for merit sources to sell their merit.

I joined this forum long before there were Legendary members, before Activity was a thing, and before Merits or sMerits existed.

Let me tell you a parable:

Quote
There was a son. He said "Father, give me merits"... then he goes away to a distant forum and spends it all. Then there is famine.

He thinks "Oh my, I am posting crap and not getting paid for it, I will go back to my father and he will treat me like one of his hired spammers and I can eat."

So, the prodigal son returns, and even before anyone else can see him, gets awarded 18 merits from an otherwise infinite supply.


... if that doesn't make you think, let me tell you another story:

Quote
I hire 3 people to work in my vineyard:

Person one comes in the morning, works all day, I pay him 10 merits.
Person two come noon time, works the rest of the day, I pay him 10 merits too.
Person three comes late in the afternoon, works until evening, I pay him 10 merits too.

Person one comes to me complaining "Why did you pay person 3 the same as me, I have worked 8 more hours than him?"

I answer "Would you rather you not get paid at all? Don't come to work for me then."

I am not God, I never claimed to be. Whatever act of injustice you perceive, why not think of it as mercy. Merit being given to you does not depend on your desire or effort but on the will of whoever gives it.

Would you despise someone for offering the kingdom to poor, oppressed, weak sinners because they were made equal to you?

Again, I am not God, so don't nail me to any cross. If you do, please, let me be the good thief. At least today, I will be in paradise.

The dude probably doesn't even know what merit is. Or could care less.

In this thread alone, 20 of the posts have signatures (from campaigns). I don't care about that either. But maybe someone who only got 17 merits is complaining because someone else got 18 merits. I'm not sure.

But I'll err on the side of caution and give the OP a merit to make him equal to the one he's complaining about. The post is otherwise "high-quality" even if I disagree with it.

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October 05, 2019, 04:32:20 PM
Last edit: October 05, 2019, 04:58:30 PM by malevolent
 #33

Merit sources aren't supposed to be selling their allocated merits, so if someone's old (no problem at all by itself, I also sometimes merit older posts) and average posts no one else would merit are suddenly being merited, to some people this will look like selling merits or self-meriting an alt account (I'm not saying this has to be the case here, just saying how it may be seen).

I'll also leave these quotes from theymos:

While we will not be directly moderating this, I encourage people to give merit to posts that are objectively high-quality, not just posts that you agree with.

If you want to be a merit source:

 1. Be a somewhat established member.
 2. Collect TEN posts written in the last couple of months by other people that have not received nearly enough merit for how good they are, and post quotes for them all in a new Meta thread. The point of this is to demonstrate your ability to give out merit usefully.
 3. We will take a look at your history and maybe make you a source.

I am especially eager to have merit sources in sub-communities such as the local sections.

emphasis mine

Of course just the act of distributing merits can be useful if the next user now has sMerits of their own to merit useful/constructive posts of low-rank users.

post edited to add the 1st quote

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October 05, 2019, 04:44:22 PM
 #34

To me, I see the irony in not allowing to sell merits, while allowing accounts to be sold. Actually, it is not allowed for merit sources to sell their merits. Maybe non-sources are allowed to sell their merits, since they don't have a constant supply but have to get it from others.

That opens up a category of users or accounts who are not merit sources which sell their merits, then get merited by sources. Or even two or more hops away. So if a merit source sends the non-merit source 2 merits, that user can sell the 1 sMerit they can send? It boggles the mind. There's probably already a black market for this, some site called meritroad.onion or silkmerit.onion. Ha, I'd like to be the middle man for all those trades.

Come to think of it, I maybe read something about an ERC-20 token ... but can't find it now, probably dead.

I wouldn't really know as no one has offered more than a satoshi for merits and I'm in the category of those people not allowed to sell them, so it's not worth even the time to consider it.

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October 05, 2019, 04:53:20 PM
Merited by JayJuanGee (1)
 #35

That opens up a category of users or accounts who are not merit sources which sell their merits, then get merited by sources. Or even two or more hops away. So if a merit source sends the non-merit source 2 merits, that user can sell the 1 sMerit they can send? It boggles the mind.

If a merit source sends a non-merit source merits with the knowledge that this user will sell their sMerits, I think that should (and probably would if discovered) be treated the same as selling merits directly. The more hops there are, the less of a concern this is, obviously.

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October 05, 2019, 05:02:26 PM
 #36

New non-existent problem: CoinJoin for Merits in multiple rounds.

Or a solution looking for a problem.

New company: Meritnalysis. We trace all your merits are belong to us for KYC-AML purposes.

Anyway, I don't think that newbie is going to sell whatever I sent him.

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October 05, 2019, 05:10:19 PM
Merited by Sancho18 (1)
 #37

I'm not sure that I fully understand how the list of DT is formed, but can this somehow be connected with this? It seems there, among other conditions, a sufficient number of users with a merit in the range of 10-250 is needed.
Merit sent by yourself isn't counted towards voting you onto DT1, and I've actually excluded those on the link you posted.

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October 05, 2019, 07:21:49 PM
Last edit: October 06, 2019, 02:00:45 AM by The-One-Above-All
Merited by Dabs (1)
 #38

I don't look in this area often, or at all. But somehow I got mentioned and it popped up. I don't really have anything to say. sMerits can decay (or so it says)

Quote
You have received a total of 1 million merit. This is what determines your forum rank. You typically cannot lose this merit. You have 5 billion sendable merit (sMerit) which you can send to other people. There is no point in hoarding sMerit; keeping it yourself does not benefit you, and we reserve the right to decay unused sMerit in the future.

You are a merit source. The next 4 billion merit you spend will come from your source rather than your sMerit balance. Merit spent from your source will come back in 5 seconds. Unused source merit is wasted. It is not allowed for merit sources to sell their merit.

I joined this forum long before there were Legendary members, before Activity was a thing, and before Merits or sMerits existed.

Let me tell you a parable:

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There was a son. He said "Father, give me merits"... then he goes away to a distant forum and spends it all. Then there is famine.

He thinks "Oh my, I am posting crap and not getting paid for it, I will go back to my father and he will treat me like one of his hired spammers and I can eat."

So, the prodigal son returns, and even before anyone else can see him, gets awarded 18 merits from an otherwise infinite supply.


... if that doesn't make you think, let me tell you another story:

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I hire 3 people to work in my vineyard:

Person one comes in the morning, works all day, I pay him 10 merits.
Person two come noon time, works the rest of the day, I pay him 10 merits too.
Person three comes late in the afternoon, works until evening, I pay him 10 merits too.

Person one comes to me complaining "Why did you pay person 3 the same as me, I have worked 8 more hours than him?"

I answer "Would you rather you not get paid at all? Don't come to work for me then."

I am not God, I never claimed to be. Whatever act of injustice you perceive, why not think of it as mercy. Merit being given to you does not depend on your desire or effort but on the will of whoever gives it.

Would you despise someone for offering the kingdom to poor, oppressed, weak sinners because they were made equal to you?

Again, I am not God, so don't nail me to any cross. If you do, please, let me be the good thief. At least today, I will be in paradise.

The dude probably doesn't even know what merit is. Or could care less.

In this thread alone, 20 of the posts have signatures (from campaigns). I don't care about that either. But maybe someone who only got 17 merits is complaining because someone else got 18 merits. I'm not sure.

But I'll err on the side of caution and give the OP a merit to make him equal to the one he's complaining about. The post is otherwise "high-quality" even if I disagree with it.

This is quite an insightful post.

Via these nice parables you describe merit as it is now: meaningless, unfair and totally unrelated to the value/effort of the contribution. Also if you dare to complain how unfair and crazy merit allocation is in meta board... you are off the vineyard immediately.

The strange thing is since most here are totally advocating it is fine to just give merit to any post you like, even perhaps 50 for a 5 year old one word post and nobody disputes that mods and dt's often merit one liner off topic derailing garbage or even posts that have been debunked clearly right there in the next post ... THEN IT IS VERY STRANGE that we should have a meta board stocked full of people that also believe this merit score SHOULD be the basis for TRUST, ability to be paid2post, your rates of paid2post, your ability to trade, and now your volume.

It is like admitting the merit score is meaningless and then demanding it should have meaning LOL

The very notion you can build on top of such a meaningless score AT ALL is laughable. Where is theymos to detail the reasoning behind giving MERIT such meaning and influence when clearly everyone knows  IT HAS NO SOLID MEANING AT ALL, it is practically impossible to demonstrate abuse because it is so wide open to abuse??

I mean imagine providing SUCH POWER and INCENTIVE to game and abuse a metric and then leave it so wide open to ABUSE AND GAMING .... hehe

This thread and the replies given demonstrate clearly that which is UNDENIABLE from the start. MERIT is totally meaningless and unreliable dirt. It is a cancer that turns an otherwise level playing field into a guaranteed 2 tier system where control of nearly every aspect is handed to the most successful manipulators and ruthless gamers for selfish reward.

The results demonstrate this quite clearly. You just need to think about it. Well if you are stupid you do. I mean anyone else can just look at how it works and immediately observe it is broken.

Dabs answer is clearly... You can fuck off and if I want to give merits to someone for simply saying they collected their shit tokens he will. WHY because that is what merit is for. You just give it to any post you like and nobody can say anything about it. You just say well I think it is a GOOD post and deserves some merit. That's the end of it. Or if that does not work you can say, well he made some other post I thought was good and I think he needs to power up so I sprinkle some over this other posts when I feel like it. So what?

I mean why is someone saying they collected their shit tokens ANY WORSE than DT members screaming trolling at posts that when challenged they can not debunk or even deny because observable instances can not be denied. Or how is it worse than offering a faux specious rebuttal to an undeniable description of how things observably function? well go ask theymos himself. He gives merit to faux rebuttals and specious arguments and he designed merit right? this is leading by example.

If dabs has abused merit for giving it to a seemingly low value statement ( i mean one could view it as valuable if others were asking, hey has anyone got their shit tokens yet? or their incent bonus yet perhaps all worrying they were going to be scammed or worrying where their next bowl of rice was coming from then that post could have presented them with a lot of value) then you can pretty much say nearly EVERYONE of DT1 have abused merit here in meta (a couple of exceptions).

The OP is totally within his right to bring up what he believes are abuses or inconsistencies. If only he had read meta board before posting he would have know it is futile to present even undeniable evidence that merit is garbage and abused. Theymos does not care at all. The more you demonstrate his merit baby is destroying free speech and creating a 2 tier system for members , the more he digs his heels in and gives MORE incentive to game and manipulate it harder.

Merit can not be abused until there is strict criteria set in place to set a minimum value threshold to each post. Giving merit to misleading and specious well written arguments, or meriting 1 liner off topic derailing insults and allegations that have been debunked many times,  is worse than giving it to those that are telling others they got their shit tokens paid out so don't worry.

Well done to dabs, well done to everyone who is saying you can give merit for any shit you want. Let's be honest about merit. You can give it to any crap you want if you feel like it. If people demonstrate you gave it to debunked garbage, one liner off topic derailing debunked allegations, specious misleading arguments, or just for posting I want some merits......tell them fuck off I can give it for any reason I want. Nothing will be done.

Well done to the OP. It has helped serve as a thread we will reference to demonstrate clearly most peoples reasoning and understanding of merit allocation. You have every right to highlight issues if you think it will help this movement.


NEWaccountTOhidemyself
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October 05, 2019, 09:48:22 PM
 #39

If a staff member such as Dabs sent a pm to anyone asking for money and then rewarded merits to  the people that gave him money it would be an abuse.
In fact are staff members allowed to ask members for money via pm?
It would be very difficult to say no for fear of retaliation from staff.
I don't read every rule in every spot on bitcointalk,but if I was asked for money or coins from any staff member I would feel frightened to talk about it.
Look at all the names of staff that posted here. I ask any non staff person to reply what would you do if asked for coins from them?

I see a lot of legends  

actmyname
suchmoon
yahoo62278
Pamoldar
The Pharmacist
Jet Cash
philipma1957
LoyceV
Lucius


I see staff

Dabs
malevolent
Welsh

So if any of them ask a legend for coin 

the legend says yes or no

Does an honest legend fear being asked for coins from staff?   Plenty  are on the thread what would you do?

Pay up
Pm theymos
Just say no
Dabs
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Activity: 2618
Merit: 1395


The Concierge of Crypto


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October 05, 2019, 11:32:54 PM
 #40

Via these nice parables you describe merit as it is now: meaningless, unfair and totally unrelated to the value/effort of the contribution. Also if you dare to complain how unfair and crazy merit allocation is in meta board... you are off the vineyard immediately.

I think you've misinterpreted the parables completely; or taken it out of context. If a post has some sort of merit (as in the real meaning of the word), then it may be given merit (points) by anyone who sees it that has sMerits to give. On average, posts that deserve merit do get more merit, than posts that shouldn't be.

That is not to say everyone else sees the same thing or can do something about it. The world isn't perfect. The forum isn't perfect. The ranking and activity system isn't perfect. This merit system, combined with all the other variables, does provide a small measure of going in the right direction.

A good post will probably get more merits. It's possible it may get none.
A bad post will probably get less or no merits. It's possible it may get some.

If a staff member such as Dabs sent a pm to anyone asking for money and then rewarded merits to  the people that gave him money it would be an abuse.
In fact are staff members allowed to ask members for money via pm?
It would be very difficult to say no for fear of retaliation from staff.

I've asked personal friends for coins. Some said yes. Some said no. Got nothing to do with the forum although I understand you feel it may. None of them got any merits from me, except those who posted and I thought the post deserved merits.

Most staff here don't have any other powers than to delete posts in the sections they moderate, or move around threads to more appropriate places. Almost all staff here do a thankless job of trying to keep this forum clean. We get paid a token amount (some get paid more, some get paid less).

I also keep personal funds separate from any other coins or tokens I hold in escrow for someone else.


Honest legends have nothing to fear from any staff. They can just say no.
Honest newbie accounts like yourself, likewise. I'll ask you publicly to please kindly send me some coins so I can feed my family. But I'm almost sure you'll say no. Nothing will happen. But then you're posting from a throw-away or disposable looking account, we have no idea who you really are.

Now, if you're some sort of Good Samaritan (I think I've talked enough about religious parables), then my address is in my profile.


Cheers everyone, let's stop fighting over ... stuff. I tend to send merits to newbies more often than to legendaries, primarily because the latter do not need them and I'd rather send it directly to those who do.


Dabs

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