LoyceV's Beginners guide to correct use of the Trust system

[LoyceV]

The images aren't showing! All of them looks dead to me!  

I think this is the same problem that arose last May. My guess is the forum's image proxy has another IP address now. I've asked l suchmoon (who's donated loyce.club's hosting for the past 5 years!) to have a look, I don't have access to that part of the hosting.

Update: images work again.

[apogio]

Hello, can someone tell me why there is trust feedback which is visible on BPIP but not in the profile page?

Does the trust feedback need to come from a DT user to be visible on the profile page? I am basing this on this quote from the OP: "This means that feedback left by all DT1 and DT2 members is by default shown for all users"

Sorry if I should have known this answer, but I don't and I can't find it.

I also apologize if the answer exists in the thread, I didn't read all the pages.

[LoyceV]

Hello, can someone tell me why there is trust feedback which is visible on BPIP but not in the profile page?

Does the trust feedback need to come from a DT user to be visible on the profile page? I am basing this on this quote from the OP: "This means that feedback left by all DT1 and DT2 members is by default shown for all users"

I think you're confusing several things, so I'll give a broad answer. First, Trusted and Untrusted feedback is on my TODO since 2019. I kinda forgot about it
But I think you're also confusing DT (DefaultTrust) with what you see, based on your custom Trust list. BPIP shows ratings based on DT (so with only DefaultTrust on it's scraper's Trust list). If you want to see it like that, add ;dt behind the profile's URL.

[apogio]

But I think you're also confusing DT (DefaultTrust) with what you see, based on your custom Trust list. BPIP shows ratings based on DT (so with only DefaultTrust on it's scraper's Trust list). If you want to see it like that, add ;dt behind the profile's URL.

Yes my question is that I am seeing 3/1/0 on your website, or like you said, if I add ;dt on my profile page, whereas I see 2/0/0 if I don't add it.
And I am still confusing why this is different. What does "based on DT" mean?

[LoyceV]

I see 2/0/0 if I don't add it.

That means your own Trust list changes the way your feedback looks by default. Who's missing from this page without ;dt?

What does "based on DT" mean?

Based on DefaultTrust, which means it's seen the way the forum is seen without a custom Trust list.

I think what you're looking for is my Personal Full Trust Depth viewer for all users. That explains the large recursive implications of a custom Trust list, but the last update was before you joined the forum (and took 5 days to process). I've just started an update on my server, if nothing changed since then it should still work and be done in a couple of days.

[apogio]

That means your own Trust list changes the way your feedback looks by default. Who's missing from this page without ;dt?

Oh so it's different because of my custom trust list?
It's Don Pedro Dineiro and 1Dq who are missing.

I saw this on OP:

Implications of making a Trust list
Adding users to your Trust list has large recursive implications because the users you trust directly (Depth 0) make you trust the ones they trust (Depth 1), and the users they trust (Depth 2) (see details beyond beginner level).
Once you have a custom Trust list, you'll see different Trust scores than users without a custom Trust list. You can always add ;dt to any URL to view the forum as if you didn't set a custom Trust list (see this example).

It's clear that if you have set a Trust List, then the feedback on your profile will differ. However, I consider the custom trust lists as being important for the forum. I 'd like to be able to view the whole picture, but if I needed to change the custom trust list, then I don't suppose I will.

[LoyceV]

I 'd like to be able to view the whole picture, but if I needed to change the custom trust list, then I don't suppose I will.

My own Trust summary usually looks slightly different for me, compared to DT. The first thing I notice is that SirJohnVonSlotty is missing. When my Trust depth viewer is ready, I'll see what changes my own Trust list needs.

[LoyceV]

It's Don Pedro Dineiro and 1Dq who are missing.

From Trust Depth list for: apogio:
453. (Depth 2) 1Dq (Trust: +16 / =0 / -0) (1929 Merit earned) (Trust list) (BPIP)
Don Pedro Dineiro is not on the list at all.

Did you change your Trust depth to something lower than 2 by any chance? That's the only thing (I can think of) that would explain his feedback not showing up for you.

[apogio]

Did you change your Trust depth to something lower than 2 by any chance? That's the only thing (I can think of) that would explain his feedback not showing up for you.

Yes my trust list was set to depth=1 and I am trying to remember why. I will try to read about it and understand better how it works. I have set it to 2 again.

[LoyceV]

I will try to read about it and understand better how it works.

It basically means you included DT1, but not DT2. In your Personal Trust depth list, it means the 559 users on Depth 2 weren't included. Even though you probably won't recognize most of them, the changes are significant.

I think "depth 1" should only be used if you have a very long custom Trust list. You may even go to "depth 0" (although I don't recommend that): it would mean you only see the feedback from users you've included by yourself, and ignore the Trust lists from the users on your own Trust list.

[apogio]

It basically means you included DT1, but not DT2. In your Personal Trust depth list, it means the 559 users on Depth 2 weren't included. Even though you probably won't recognize most of them, the changes are significant.

Ok, but DT1 changes from time to time, so in that case, would my trust change accordingly? If I had a neutral feedback from user X who is on DT1, but he then got removed from DT1, would I miss the feedback from my profile?

I think "depth 1" should only be used if you have a very long custom Trust list. You may even go to "depth 0" (although I don't recommend that): it would mean you only see the feedback from users you've included by yourself, and ignore the Trust lists from the users on your own Trust list.

Yes, perfectly clear. It's all about the depth of the lists and how they intersect.

[LoyceV]

Ok, but DT1 changes from time to time, so in that case, would my trust change accordingly? If I had a neutral feedback from user X who is on DT1, but he then got removed from DT1, would I miss the feedback from my profile?

Yes. Example from my own experience: my feedback changes a bit every month because changes in DT1 cause changes in DT2.

[JayJuanGee]

Ok, but DT1 changes from time to time, so in that case, would my trust change accordingly? If I had a neutral feedback from user X who is on DT1, but he then got removed from DT1, would I miss the feedback from my profile?

Yes. Example from my own experience: my feedback changes a bit every month because changes in DT1 cause changes in DT2.

I thought that changes in DT1 will change those who are on the default trust lists, but changes to DT1 does not change our own personal trust lists or even the trust list of others because those one our trust list stay the same and those on other trust lists stay the same, absent manual changes, and the personal trust lists are not changed by members very frequently.

So if we have our trust lists set to level 2, then everyone on our trust list is level 1 and then everyone on our level 1 has their own level 1s, which would be our level 2, so in other words our trust would not be affected by changes in DT1, only by our changing our trust list or those on our trust list changing their level 1s.

Sure, I think that we may have several members who either don't have a trust list (so then their trust list would be default trust) or they purposefully include default trust on their trust list, so then the fact that default trust is within the trust lists of some members would therefore end up affecting the trust that shows for the members.  I used to have default trust on mine but I changed that, even though I am pretty sure that several members who I trust have default trust on their trust list. 

I am not 100% sure about the accuracy of what I am saying, so I guess I am asking rather than stating definitively.

[apogio]

I thought that changes in DT1 will change those who are on the default trust lists, but changes to DT1 does not change our own personal trust lists or even the trust list of others because those one our trust list stay the same and those on other trust lists stay the same, absent manual changes, and the personal trust lists are not changed by members very frequently.

So if we have our trust lists set to level 2, then everyone on our trust list is level 1 and then everyone on our level 1 has their own level 1s, which would be our level 2, so in other words our trust would not be affected by changes in DT1, only by our changing our trust list or those on our trust list changing their level 1s.

Sure, I think that we may have several members who either don't have a trust list (so then their trust list would be default trust) or they purposefully include default trust on their trust list, so then the fact that default trust is within the trust lists of some members would therefore end up affecting the trust that shows for the members.  I used to have default trust on mine but I changed that, even though I am pretty sure that several members who I trust have default trust on their trust list. 

I am not 100% sure about the accuracy of what I am saying, so I guess I am asking rather than stating definitively.

I think what LoyceV said was that depending on who the members in DT1 are, then everyone's trust feedback changes according to their own custom trust lists.

I am underlying these lines because, from my understanding, what changes is the feedback that you see on your profile (i.e. the numbers X/Y/Z) and not the people that you have in your trust list.

In general, even though I wished this was simpler, I am still struggling with understanding how it works. The best approach I 've found was to try to do some experiments, like changing the trust depth on my trust list etc.

[Don Pedro Dinero]

In general, even though I wished this was simpler, I am still struggling with understanding how it works.

I don't just want it, I think it should be simplified. A system that those of us who have been around for years find it hard to understand is too convoluted and I am sure it could be simplified while maintaining the same sort of fairness. In my local forum I am the one who knows the most about the subject (apart from Ddmr**** who is hardly active any more, apart from updating his threads) and I get lost with the depths.

By the way LoyceV your loyce.club site isn't working properly for me on Tor atm.

[LoyceV]

I thought that changes in DT1 will change those who are on the default trust lists, but changes to DT1 does not change our own personal trust lists or even the trust list of others because those one our trust list stay the same and those on other trust lists stay the same, absent manual changes, and the personal trust lists are not changed by members very frequently.

Correct.

So if we have our trust lists set to level 2, then everyone on our trust list is level 1

Wrong: everyone on your own Trust list is at Depth 0. Please have a look at your own Trust depth viewer.

so in other words our trust would not be affected by changes in DT1

It depends: if you have DefaultTrust on your Trust list (as most users do), changes to DT1 are likely to make changes to your own Depth 2. But DefaultTrust is not included in my Trust list viewer, it's kinda added on top of that.

I used to have default trust on mine but I changed that, even though I am pretty sure that several members who I trust have default trust on their trust list.

Now that you mention it: I think this means DefaultTrust will still be on your Depth 1 (instead of Depth 0) because of other people on your Trust list who include it. If you don't want that, you'd have to exclude DefaultTrust (by adding ~DefaultTrust to your Trust list).
Having DefaultTrust included through someone else on your own Trust list puts DT1 on your Depth 2, and DT2 falls down to Depth 3.

I am not 100% sure about the accuracy of what I am saying, so I guess I am asking rather than stating definitively.

It's one of the problems with the Trust system: it's quite complicated, and the large majority of users don't understand it completely.

By the way LoyceV your loyce.club site isn't working properly for me on Tor atm.

Confirmed DDoS-protection sucks
Try to hit CTRL-SHIFT-L a few times. A new Tor circuit solved it for me.

[MotoLM]

So if we have our trust lists set to level 2, then everyone on our trust list is level 1 and then everyone on our level 1 has their own level 1s, which would be our level 2, so in other words our trust would not be affected by changes in DT1, only by our changing our trust list or those on our trust list changing their level 1s.

If you set trust depth to 2, you will likely be ended up trusting the feedback of most of the forum users.

In general, even though I wished this was simpler, I am still struggling with understanding how it works.

I don't just want it, I think it should be simplified. A system that those of us who have been around for years find it hard to understand is too convoluted and I am sure it could be simplified while maintaining the same sort of fairness. In my local forum I am the one who knows the most about the subject (apart from Ddmr**** who is hardly active any more, apart from updating his threads) and I get lost with the depths.

Welcome to the old feedback system. There was math, if/else and what's not lol.

Well, the new feedback system has been simplified a lot than the one we had in the past. A lot of forum users now know how the current system works while when I joined the forum, very few people used to know about how the old system works.

[LoyceV]

If you set trust depth to 2, you will likely be ended up trusting the feedback of most of the forum users.

That's wrong, as shown by my Trust depth viewer.

Welcome to the old feedback system. There was math, if/else and what's not lol.

That's also wrong: the old feedback system largely worked the same.

Well, the new feedback system has been simplified a lot than the one we had in the past.

You're going to have to provide some evidence for this.

A lot of forum users now know how the current system works

I guess we have a different definition of "a lot".

[MotoLM]

If you set trust depth to 2, you will likely be ended up trusting the feedback of most of the forum users.

That's wrong, as shown by my Trust depth viewer.

When we set it 0, we are only trusting feedback directly from our custom trust list. When we set it 1, we trust their trust list and with setting it 2, aren't we going more deep? That's how I used to know the system works. My bad if I was in the wrong all these days.
If that's true but you don't have a lot of people in trust depth viewer, I think I shouldn't use the term "a lot of people use the system".

That's also wrong: the old feedback system largely worked the same.

We had feedback score which wasn't simply the number of positive, negative and neutral feedbacks. It was a score calculated by an algorithm which many found complicated. That's what I have observed in the past.

You're going to have to provide some evidence for this.

Checking the number of custom trust list now vs old would be the evidence but I don't have it.

[LoyceV]

If you set trust depth to 2, you will likely be ended up trusting the feedback of most of the forum users.

That's wrong, as shown by my Trust depth viewer.

When we set it 0, we are only trusting feedback directly from our custom trust list. When we set it 1, we trust their trust list and with setting it 2, aren't we going more deep?

Depth 2 is deeper than Depth 1, but that doesn't mean it's "most of the forum users".

We had feedback score which wasn't simply the number of positive, negative and neutral feedbacks. It was a score calculated by an algorithm which many found complicated.

Correct. But the Trust system with Trust Depths was the same, except for voting for DT1.

Checking the number of custom trust list now vs old would be the evidence but I don't have it.

Having a custom Trust list doesn't necessarily mean the user understands the system. I've seen far too many examples where users include users on their Trust list for the wrong reasons. Example: including someone because you made a trade with them.