Freedom of speech

[AB de Royse777]

Freedom of speech has a cost and are we paying the price for it in this forum?
Let's not bring any specific name/user if you really know who (a person or a group) I am pointing too.

[1714799829]

1714799829

[suchmoon]

We absolutely are paying the price with our bleeding eyeballs and wasted time trying to read through all that crap. The actual cost depends on how disciplined one can be about their ignore list and not getting down the rabbit troll hole.

The other part of the cost is scaring sane users away with lunatic ramblings. This creates a feedback loop where less sane content encourages more lunatics. I don't know if we can quantify that. It would be nice though if mods could swing that ban hammer more often on obvious shit that I can't link to due to the local rule LOL.

[The Sceptical Chymist]

Ehh....I think I know who you're talking about, but if it's who I think it is, he hasn't been as active as he was for most of the year, so that's an improvement.  Plus all the raging trolls are on my ignore list anyway, so I don't tend to read their threads or comments.  I've suggested people put these assholes on ignore and not to even peek at their posts, but that didn't seem to catch on and I've even broken my own rule occasionally (though not lately).

There is a rule against trolling, but apparently you-know-who's posts don't rise to that level in the moderators' eyes.  And I'm all for freedom of speech on the forum--it's one of the things that attracted me to it in the first place.  So I really don't have a problem with whoever you're talking about doing his little rants and whatnot.  I don't have to look at them if I don't want to, nor does anyone else.  That's what the ignore button is for, no?

[eddie13]

Freedom of speech is worth a very high cost.. Untold thousands have paid with their lives trying to ensure its continuity..
Bitcoin is at the heart of freedom of speech.. It is its purpose..

[Liquid_Gas]

...
The other part of the cost is scaring sane users away with lunatic ramblings. This creates a feedback loop where less sane content encourages more lunatics. I don't know if we can quantify that. It would be nice though if mods could swing that ban hammer more often on obvious shit that I can't link to due to the local rule LOL.

As a newbie reading this thread, I could
1) Try to completely understand exactly what the first two posts mean
2) Leave and never come back, since your community has serious issues
3) Laugh, smile and try a different thread

Are you guys OK?  

[Step_By_Step]

"Freedom is a light for which many men have died in darkness." The quote is inscribed on the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier of the American Revolution in Philadelphia’s Washington Square.

Freedom of speech is worth a very high cost.. Untold thousands have paid with their lives trying to ensure its continuity..
Bitcoin is at the heart of freedom of speech.. It is its purpose..

Excellent reminder eddie, can someone with rep please give him some?

[mu_enrico]

I feel you mate.

But in my opinion, there is no such thing as absolute freedom of speech in public places (like this forum) because your freedom sometimes will violate someone else's rights.

I think it's more related to morality. Is it okay if we stay silent when we know something isn't right? Depends...

-Utilitarian: do we need to calculate the cost/benefit analysis (for the greater good)?
-Negative rights: should "y" be left alone?
-Moral sentiments: how about we put ourselves in the "y" shoes?

I don't know mate... I'm literally nobody in this forum.

Edit: I changed "x" with "y" so you guys can follow this discussion, and avoid some misunderstanding
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5185042.msg53063807#msg53063807

[DireWolfM14]

Freedom of speech is not only worth a high cost, as eddie13 has said, it also pays dividends.  If wasn't for the freedom of speech that trolls enjoy, it would be harder to identify what despicable people they are.

If you're talking about some one who may be blackmailing a member to remove support for a scam-flag, he'll get his in the end.  It's no secret what happened, and it's only a matter of time before his actions are exposed.   

[suchmoon]

Freedom of speech is worth a very high cost.. Untold thousands have paid with their lives trying to ensure its continuity..
Bitcoin is at the heart of freedom of speech.. It is its purpose..

Freedom of speech should come with freedom to hear (or not) otherwise it'd just degrade to useless noise drowning out anything of value. Creating garbage speech is typically much easier than something worth hearing so a single asshole can flood the whole board with nonsense. We do have some tools to that effect (Ignore) but unfortunately they don't work when the forum favors 50-account trolls.

Perhaps we should do it the Bitcoin way and charge a TX fee for each post

[actmyname]

But in my opinion, there is no such thing as absolute freedom of speech in public places (like this forum) because your freedom sometimes will violate someone else's rights.

Do you have an example? Your answer would depend on what you consider "rights".

-Utilitarian: do we need to calculate the cost/benefit analysis (for the greater good)?

Morality is subjective but I think utilitarianism is the worst way to plan out morality. "Happiness" is very loosely defined and if you really want to maximize it, you would mass-produce humans, force them to do meth constantly, and enslave them to happiness. A cult of happiness.

-Negative rights: should "x" be left alone?

What does that mean? Negative rights?

-Moral sentiments: how about we put ourselves in the "x" shoes?

An apt way to look at it, though what happens when you put yourself in the shoes of an unstable or mind-atrophying individual?

[eddie13]

But in my opinion, there is no such thing as absolute freedom of speech in public places (like this forum) because your freedom sometimes will violate someone else's rights.

It's a bit hard to violate someone elses rights with speech only.. People don't have the right to not be offended, or the right to be provided a safe space where they won't encounter controversial or politically incorrect ideas..

Freedom of speech should come with freedom to hear (or not) otherwise it'd just degrade to useless noise drowning out anything of value. Creating garbage speech is typically much easier than something worth hearing so a single asshole can flood the whole board with nonsense. We do have some tools to that effect (Ignore) but unfortunately they don't work when the forum favors 50-account trolls.

I understand that this board can't maintain absolute free speech..

Perhaps we should do it the Bitcoin way and charge a TX fee for each post

That would be an interesting dynamic to try somewhere.. It is proven quite effective at reducing spam..
Reminds me of..
"But you must understand, young hobbit. It takes a long time to say anything in old Entish, and we never say anything unless it is worth taking a long time to say."

[mu_enrico]

Do you have an example? Your answer would depend on what you consider "rights".

An apt way to look at it, though what happens when you put yourself in the shoes of an unstable or mind-atrophying individual?

My apologies for the misunderstanding, but I'm not speaking about the culprit...

Negative rights, or negative freedom, means freedom from something. Your negative right imposes a negative duty on others, meaning a duty to do nothing and not interfere.

Source: https://www.liberalistene.org/knowledge/positive-and-negative-rights/

[AB de Royse777]

Let's say (hypothetically) someone knows my personal information (ID and stuffs) if they want to harass me in a legal court for anything then they will need to file a case against me right? And in this case can they file the case keeping their personal information hidden?

~snip~
It would be nice though if mods could swing that ban hammer more often on obvious shit that I can't link to due to the local rule LOL.

Yes I know there are reasons (these freedom of speech again comes to the equation LOL) for them that they do not do it but there are also reasons that they really need to investigate cases like this and permanently get those cockroaches out from the community. We create rules to protect us not to be a victim of it.

Perhaps we should do it the Bitcoin way and charge a TX fee for each post

May be we will be able to get rid of some low level self proclaimed lawyers who can not afford to manage some couple hundred fiat shit to come up clean or at-least show that they have a good intention to settle things the correct way.

Ehh....I think I know who you're talking about, but if it's who I think it is, he hasn't been as active as he was for most of the year, so that's an improvement.

You got the wrong person :-P
By the way, this ignore button really does not work for some reason. You always has this curious shit to hit the show/hide link and eventually read the shit.

[Theb]

Scams and spams are the things that first come into my mind when we talk about how freedom of speech works here. Yes we can report certain posts, add the merit system, improve our bumping system but we may never limit a member on where they can post or just remove his posting privileges entirely not unless he has been proven to plagiarized a posts. Scams on the other hand is something the DT members always deal every time since it is "unmoderated" scammers can thrive here even if we put a tag on them their posts can still be seen by others who can still be a victim. For the account and merit sellers they also win in this system as all they need to do is to create a dummy account and post what they are offering and provide another contact info outside of the forum so that they can transact out from it. That's the general aspect I see when it comes to having freedom of speech here in the forum.

[NeuroticFish]

Freedom of speech has a cost and are we paying the price for it in this forum?

Freedom of speech is a great deal and whether some like it or not, it's great that we have it here too.
This forum is more and more a view over our society, with good and bad, with people that share our views or not, with people which want to help, to scam or to troll (and so on). It's out choice what we read or skip, what we answer to or not.

[suchmoon]

Let's say (hypothetically) someone knows my personal information (ID and stuffs) if they want to harass me in a legal court for anything then they will need to file a case against me right? And in this case can they file the case keeping their personal information hidden?

Filing a defamation lawsuit anonymously would defeat the whole idea of defamation, since someone's reputation (or damage thereof) is typically a public matter. Depending on jurisdiction this would be either impossible or only allowed in exceptional cases, e.g. involving abuse of minors. Besides trolls don't file lawsuits, particularly broke-ass trolls that beg for "donations" although they can cause other damage if they get a hold of someone's personal information.

But most of that is not subject to forum rules. The few things that they can do on the forum (like doxing) will not be acted upon until after the fact. In other words the troll won't be banned for merely threatening unless it's a threat of violence.

[LoyceV]

Freedom of speech is worth a very high cost.. Untold thousands have paid with their lives trying to ensure its continuity..
Bitcoin is at the heart of freedom of speech.. It is its purpose..

Well said!
Or as a famous quote goes: "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it" (I had to search for the source: Evelyn Beatrice Hall).

Luckily, I also have the "Freedom to click the Ignore button", which nicely balances it out. And I really don't mind the occasional troll that much. By being consequent on the ignore button, I barely see their crap, it's only on a few boards, and it's a small amount compared to the useful posts on this forum. So let them be, ignore them, and stop feeding the creatures!

People don't have the right to not be offended

I dare go a step further, and I don't remember who said it before I did, but: "Being offended is a choice!". Google brings me to the Chicago Tribune, but it's literally tells me it's unavailable in Europe.
I don't think I've ever been offended by anything on this forum. If you're offended by someone on the internet, you give them far too much credit! To quote myself:

If someone on the internet is mean to you: boo fucking hoo! Use the Ignore button, and forget about them.

[actmyname]

I dare go a step further, and I don't remember who said it before I did, but: "Being offended is a choice!". Google brings me to the Chicago Tribune, but it's literally tells me it's unavailable in Europe.

I've heard something along the lines of, "others should not take responsibility for your reactions."

There is always a common denominator for your actions, thoughts and desires. You.

[PrimeNumber7]

But in my opinion, there is no such thing as absolute freedom of speech in public places (like this forum) because your freedom sometimes will violate someone else's rights.

I am sorry, but you do not have the right to "feel" a certain way. There is no such thing as a "safe space" in the real world.

I have somewhat speculated that the liberal indoctrination of US campuses is the result of the Chinese government trying to make the US unable to fight in wars, and overall less competitive economically when its citizens are unable to cope with someone disagreeing with their ideas.

If someone is a troll, you should ignore them and they will eventually go away. Attempting to silence a troll will only reflect negatively on you. Any attempt to silence someone with an opposing view should be condemned in the strongest way possible, even if you disagree with what they are saying.

If someone is unable or unwilling to debate in good faith, there is no reason to debate them in the first place.

The price of free speech is not high or low because its value is infinite. There are crazies in every internet forum, and having a few crazies in this forum should not deter many people from participating.

[Lauda]

Freedom of speech is worth a very high cost.. Untold thousands have paid with their lives trying to ensure its continuity..
Bitcoin is at the heart of freedom of speech.. It is its purpose..

That has nothing to do with this forum. Stop appealing to emotions. More people will lose their lives while we tolerate this virtue signalling and selective use of "freedom of speech" nonsense by libtards. No wonder this place has become a collective garbage pile of baboons.

But in my opinion, there is no such thing as absolute freedom of speech in public places (like this forum) because your freedom sometimes will violate someone else's rights.

What if someone pretend that your freedom violate his/her right

This. Get fucking educated.

The price of free speech is not high or low because its value is infinite.

Did you get hit in the head?