It's hard to spend Crypto - Make adopters out of entrepreneurs

[Kyraishi]

For the smaller stores, think about the process they will need to go through (which is likely similar to this)
-snip-

These steps are only necessary if they want to use a payment processor. It is perfectly possible for a small retailer to just set up their own wallet. I spend bitcoin around three times a month at a local farmers' market, and the vendor I usually use totals up my bill on his phone, generates a QR code, and I transfer directly to his own wallet. No payment processor, no fancy terminal, no processing fees. Training of staff required is minimal - they just need to type in the value in fiat and the wallet does the rest, from converting to BTC, to generating a new receiving address, to generating and displaying a new QR code.

That's fair actually, there are wallets out there that require you to input a value, and then it will automatically generate a QR code that will put in the address and amount owed into whatever bitcoin wallet you are using. If people are smart enough to use this, they definitely save on payment fees (especially since accept fiat has them). Although, I wonder if anyone has every double-spent transactions.

3. Charge, or personally eat the 1-2 percent payment fee that most big processers will charge, or hire a coder to create your own system.

See most credit cards take a 1-3% cut of the sale price, and they charge a fee for rentals for the card readers themselves. So if you can print out say a QR code a day and have that at the till, there's a simple solution for a small business. You could then have a view only wallet open at checkout to confirm a payment has been sent. I thin k overall you can come up with a really simple infrastructure with minimal effort to make this work for any business really. Especially because at first this will be a small amount of sales.

That's true - all depends on how they innovate around things. Wonder how taxes would be paid and calculated on this, there is a chance to avoid tax here with crypto (not recommending to do so), which is a bit cheeky...

[pooya87]

in short, it is hard to spend bitcoin because we don't want to spend bitcoin!

we can't expect big retailers,... to start accepting bitcoin payments when majority of people are looking at bitcoin as an investment and are hodling on tight not wanting to spend it at all. in my opinion if we want to see them adopt bitcoin we fist have to start spending it ourselves.

ps. an interesting observation that i had was in 2017 that both the increase and the decline in number of merchants happened in that year while price was rising. the increase part was well expected since whenever price rises people tend to spend more times. but the decline was an exception, and it happened due to ridiculous rise in fees. for example Valve stopped accepting bitcoin in their steam client because the transaction fee values were higher than the value of their games!
and this is another reason why we still don't see that much adoption specially among big retailers.

[Wintersoldier]

This would be the best move for adoption. However, it's not that easy to encourage them to adopt to Bitcoin without those large enterprises doing so too. If they see huge international companies adopting to such mode of payment, then it would be much easier for them to trust the system and would follow. But until that would not happen, then there would not be a driving force that would make them support payment through Bitcoin.

Does it really need to be in Bitcoin? Because in my point based on people surrounds me on a regular daily basis, the often reiterate bitcoin having a huge market transaction fee for each transaction. If we want the commerce to enable cryptocurrency, they should be free of choosing which particular crypto it should be based on their convenience and based on what cryptocurrency would be the most efficient for them.  

In terms of technicality, the establishment should also have a free wifi access where it is intended for payment whenever customers don't have their internet connection.

[o_e_l_e_o]

in my opinion if we want to see them adopt bitcoin we fist have to start spending it ourselves.

This. I have said this many, many times. If you want bitcoin to spread, go and spread it.

If we want the commerce to enable cryptocurrency, they should be free of choosing which particular crypto it should be

But there are thousands of altcoins to choose from. What if one stores decides they only want to accept Litecoin, and the store next door decides they only Nano, the next one only wants Dash, the next Ethereum, the next XRP, the next Dogecoin, and so on. It means I have to be constantly converting bitcoin on the go to a variety of alts and eating the conversion fee each time, being left with dust of many different coins, and also use multiple exchanges or wallets with built in exchange functions, and expose myself to the risk of trusting multiple third parties.

If a store wants to accept one or more alts alongside bitcoin then go for it, but if they only accept one specific alt then I am unlikely to ever use that store.

[Mike Mayor]

in short, it is hard to spend bitcoin because we don't want to spend bitcoin!

we can't expect big retailers,... to start accepting bitcoin payments when majority of people are looking at bitcoin as an investment and are hodling on tight not wanting to spend it at all. in my opinion if we want to see them adopt bitcoin we fist have to start spending it ourselves.

ps. an interesting observation that i had was in 2017 that both the increase and the decline in number of merchants happened in that year while price was rising. the increase part was well expected since whenever price rises people tend to spend more times. but the decline was an exception, and it happened due to ridiculous rise in fees. for example Valve stopped accepting bitcoin in their steam client because the transaction fee values were higher than the value of their games!
and this is another reason why we still don't see that much adoption specially among big retailers.

I just buy steam gift cards with bitcoin. I prefer it anyway. I remember when the fees were that high. Lol, we all felt rich so we wanted to spend spend spend. I don't see why people use bitcoin as an investment only and not a method to pay. Just fill your bitcoin wallet up every now and then and spend from it. Here a local payment processor stopped support for bitcoin because people were not getting their transactions in on time and things like that> (basically idiots since I never had any problems) the only time we ever had problems with that was during the time you spoke of when fees went through the roof. Then transactions took very long. So they called these limitations of bitcoin. They said they still support crypto but are waiting for something else. I don't know why they just don't support eth.

[Pearls Before Swine]

Ideally they would manage their own wallet and become a coiner themselves. Hell even just holding back 3-5% in the coins themselves and converting the rest would be a nice step in the right direction.

That wouldn't be in the best interest of the business, whether it's small or large.  The fluctuations in price can be too extreme, plus how is a business going to make their payroll and deal with other expenses if they have their income tied up in crypto?  I doubt their suppliers accept bitcoin.  They don't pay their employees in bitcoin.  They can't pay their electric, internet, or phone bills with bitcoin...so it just doesn't help them to keep any amount of their income as bitcoin.

This may change with time, but I doubt it.  There would have to be a global disaster of a magnitude never seen before, one which shook everyone's faith in fiat before businesses dealt with crypto and didn't use a payment processor that converted it instantly into fiat.  And as much as I support bitcoin I wouldn't want to see something like that happen.

[squatter]

in short, it is hard to spend bitcoin because we don't want to spend bitcoin!

we can't expect big retailers,... to start accepting bitcoin payments when majority of people are looking at bitcoin as an investment and are hodling on tight not wanting to spend it at all.

I've got mixed feelings about Gresham's law -- this idea that people will always prefer to spend weak money (like fiat) while hoarding hard money like bitcoins. I believe the dynamic is more complex than that.

I frequently spend bitcoins. This is partly because I have some income/capital gains from it, partly for the privacy/tax implications similar to cash, partly because I simply have some. And there's probably more to it than that. I just don't feel particularly affected by the economic forces that Gresham's law is supposed to imply.

[Steamtyme]

That's true - all depends on how they innovate around things. Wonder how taxes would be paid and calculated on this, there is a chance to avoid tax here with crypto (not recommending to do so), which is a bit cheeky...

I can only speak to where I am. It's treated the same as any other business income, taken at FIAT value of whatever your invoicing the customer. It stops there if converted instantly, but if you hold then you are expected to pay capital gains taxes on it. Not to difficult to figure out in the long run, no worse implications for tax evasion than when people accept cash at the till. You either ringit up and pay taxes or .... what sale.

in short, it is hard to spend bitcoin because we don't want to spend bitcoin!
~snip~ in my opinion if we want to see them adopt bitcoin we fist have to start spending it ourselves.
~snip~ for example Valve stopped accepting bitcoin in their steam client because the transaction fee values were higher than the value of their games!
and this is another reason why we still don't see that much adoption specially among big retailers.

That's unfortunately a large part of the problem. People should be comfortable spending a portion of their BTC, or even providing services and being paid in BTC. With Valve that seems like a very shortsighted move on their part, I've never understood their reasoning. I'm not one of their customers, but it's not like they were only BTC, so why not just leave it as is. People will use other means to pay and then when the market straightened out use it once it's feasible again.

Ideally they would manage their own wallet and become a coiner themselves. Hell even just holding back 3-5% in the coins themselves and converting the rest would be a nice step in the right direction.

That wouldn't be in the best interest of the business, whether it's small or large.  The fluctuations in price can be too extreme, plus how is a business going to make their payroll and deal with other expenses if they have their income tied up in crypto?  I doubt their suppliers accept bitcoin.  They don't pay their employees in bitcoin.  They can't pay their electric, internet, or phone bills with bitcoin...so it just doesn't help them to keep any amount of their income as bitcoin.

It depends on what sort of support structure is out there. There are businesses like that actually allow you to pay your bills in Canada. For a lot of businesses that would work just fine. The majority of sales would obviously have to be converted to FIAT to cover vendors and staffing as well as any other expenses. I'm just saying they can take control of their coins and maybe hold back a small percentage to use. the 3-5% would come out of profits, and used how they see fit.  

[stompix]

in short, it is hard to spend bitcoin because we don't want to spend bitcoin!

The never to be solved puzzle!
I want to buy an electric car, but where the hell do I change it? And there are no charging stations because....nobody buys an electric car!
How did we get over it? Slowly, with huge government funds, a lot of money put in companies, regulation about pollution and much more.

What will bitcoin need to change this? God knows!
Because not only we have the problem of not having where to spend, but we also have the problem of people not willing to spend!


Also, I would like to point out something about the fees.
If you're not using a third-party payment processor where you're actually dealing with fiat only, fees are hitting you twice or thrice!
Because not only has the client to pay some fees for the tx, but you generate an address for each customer, so you need to collect those in one chunk (fees!), then you might want to send them to an exchange (fees!) so if we go back to more expensive fees than now it will be hard for small shops to deal with this.

What if one stores decides they only want to accept Litecoin, and the store next door decides they only Nano, the next one only wants Dash, the next Ethereum, the next XRP, the next Dogecoin, and so on. It means I have to be constantly converting bitcoin on the go to a variety of alts and eating the conversion fee each time, being left with dust of many different coins

Oh, such memories.
When you went on a trip to France and you end up with guldens, marks, francs , another kind of francs, all worth less than what now are 20 euros and in coins so you couldn't change them at any bank, and of course, when you went again on a trip you forget to take them with you and you come back with more.

[xiboothrezi]

That wouldn't be in the best interest of the business, whether it's small or large.  The fluctuations in price can be too extreme, plus how is a business going to make their payroll and deal with other expenses if they have their income tied up in crypto?  I doubt their suppliers accept bitcoin.  They don't pay their employees in bitcoin.  They can't pay their electric, internet, or phone bills with bitcoin...so it just doesn't help them to keep any amount of their income as bitcoin.

This may change with time, but I doubt it.  There would have to be a global disaster of a magnitude never seen before, one which shook everyone's faith in fiat before businesses dealt with crypto and didn't use a payment processor that converted it instantly into fiat.  And as much as I support bitcoin I wouldn't want to see something like that happen.

Yes, because of the high volume that bitcoin is actually not very suitable to be used as a means of payment, especially those that are routine such as electricity bills, employee salaries, etc. The value may change every month, while the costs of production and other needs are always the same so that it is not effective enough to be compared with the price changes in BTC.

That is why I repeatedly say that fiat and cryptocurrency do not replace each other, but complement each other.

[o_e_l_e_o]

If you're not using a third-party payment processor where you're actually dealing with fiat only, fees are hitting you twice or thrice!

So you the merchant has to pay consolidation fees, and potentially also sending-to-an-exchange fee, if they don't combine the consolidation and sending to an exchange in the same transaction. These can be done with fees of a couple of sats/vbyte and will work out at a few cents, much lower than the 2 - 3% that payment processor are charging.

When you went on a trip to France and you end up with guldens, marks, francs , another kind of francs, all worth less than what now are 20 euros and in coins so you couldn't change them at any bank, and of course, when you went again on a trip you forget to take them with you and you come back with more.

I've thrown away some coins and small notes of old European currencies which are no longer in circulation from vacations in decades gone by. Felt wrong, but I was moving house and didn't fancy taking them along for the ride.

Yes, because of the high volume that bitcoin is actually not very suitable to be used as a means of payment, especially those that are routine such as electricity bills, employee salaries, etc.

I pay several recurring monthly payments in bitcoin. Sure, the price is volatile at the moment, but with widespread adoption it will level out. It's worked out better for me over the last few years than paying these bills with higher and higher amounts of ever devaluing fiat.