Should DT and Merit Source Members Be Promoting A Known Scam?

[TECSHARE]

Is it a "scam" or just a predatory "high risk" investment offering? Where is the line?

Is X10 scam "or just predatory high risk investment offering"?

That is literally what he just asked you. The point being by what standard is this applied?

The only problem is this kind of behavior only expands with this "ok we make it fair by being excessive with everyone". This is the kind of slow creep that takes away everyone's freedoms and ability to be left alone unless directly victimizing others.

I'm not much of a supporter of giving up essential Liberty to purchase a little temporary Safety, or in other words, protecting idiots at the expense of loosing valuable users over minor infractions that could possibly put some idiots at greater risk, but if that is what it is then atleast it should be done consistently..

This whole Yobit situation has become too fine of an obfuscated line..
One could definitely make the argument that any advertisement of any Yobit product is advertising a "scam", as in very "high risk" and even predatory "investments"/"scams?"..
On the other hand an argument could be made along the lines of "So what?".. If people are stupid enough to buy the crap then they are stupid and stupid is as stupid does..

The current situation is some sort of blurry line drifting around in the sea somewhere between both of those camps, with possible harsh punishment for tripping on it?

Stupid situation that wouldn't even exist if users didn't want that yobit dust so badly..
Seems you can get away with a lot more, and push the boundaries, as long as you throw around some coin..
Almost like a bribe.. What can you get away with as long as you are paying?

I wouldn't recommend Yobit as a very safe exchange or any of their investments as good investments, but I would use it to dump some coins or something and might recommend to use it to get in, do your business, and get out..
Also, no matter how terrible some coin or asset being traded is, if it has volatility, it can be flipped for a profit..

Teaching people that it is ok to advertise scam because it is not your business if someone can't recognize scam is scammy behavior itself.

Is it a "scam" or just a predatory "high risk" investment offering? Where is the line?

Small correction: Yobit's signature was never banned for being a scam, it was banned for spamming the forum.

Right..
After that it's surprising to me that it was welcomed back as it has been, especially considering its borderline scamminess.. But it pays right?


crazy-joe=off topic

The inconsistency is exactly the issue. This is why we need to err on the side of less interference than more. The same standards applied to call Yobit a scam could be applied to half of the altcoin section and more. For fuck sake crypto itself could be made illegal tomorrow. This is all risky. Additionally risky does not always equal scam. Then who gets to decide how it is applied? Unless the line is clear then all this is going to do is invite tons of abuse and endless drama, and for what? Will it stop any of this stuff at the end of the day? Absolutely not.

The integrity of the system as a whole is more important. There needs to be a standard of evidence of theft, violation of contract, or violation of local applicable laws, not just suspicion. The trust system acts as a penalty, as such it should be administered based on this observable evidence, not by how good an accuser is with their creative writing skills and creating plausible theories. This is the entire reason due process exists in law, otherwise the legal system is abused to arbitrarily harass and exploit people for fun and profit like in most 3rd world countries.

The trust system is designed to prevent long cons to a lesser extent account farming as a trade history makes farming accounts much more complicated as it takes a lot more work to fake. The system should not be used like a flack cannon to mass flag and tag people because all that will achieve is to teach people to find it common and ignore it as signal noise. Again beyond that, more importantly this assembly line tagging activity consistently drags otherwise unsuspecting people into endless bullshit and drama that drives away productive user base.

[1715295022]

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[1715295022]

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[johhnyUA]

Thank you IconFirm. I agree the admins should really take note of how a DT member is promoting a project he himself calls a scam, then plays the race card when it suits him. This is beyond diabolical for a DT rank to behave in such a nonsensical unbefitting manner.

It's not my war, and as always i'm doing idiotic thing when commenting it, but. Do you think that promoting mentally ill person which uses alt accounts to spam negative feedbacks and left positive feedbacks to himself it's trustworthy? In fact, promoting alt and trust abuser, ban evader and unstable old lady with climax?

Because you're doing exact such thing and trying to accuse someone another. Weird for me.

[JollyGood]

~snip~

No one will say that it is not OK to tag someone just because they are in signature campaign, but obviously doesn't work in all scenarios.

Vispilio tried to troll but in the "real life", if you pull "yeah, it is pyramid scam" and you still decide to advertise it, and you get caught, you will be fined. For example, in my country, if you knowingly advertise financial pyramid scam, which is what you agreed to advertise when you took that signature and said they run pyramid scam, you can get up to 3 years in jail.

Strong "opinions" and "free speech" can be very dangerous. Teaching people that it is ok to advertise scam because it is not your business if someone can't recognize scam is scammy behavior itself.

I think some users might direct you to the rules of the forum rather than the real world with its various jurisdictions but keeping with the essence of your post it is absolutely not acceptable for anybody to advertise a scam and then resolve themselves of all responsibility attached to it and shift it on the end user or victim if they have been gullible enough to fall for the scam.

It seems the community came to the general consensus that yobit is not too much of a scam for it to be advertised on the forum right?
I don't like that they were allowed to come back and advertise after being banned for it but the community allowed it..

Small correction: Yobit's signature was never banned for being a scam, it was banned for spamming the forum.

It is good to know Yobit was previously banned here in the forum for effectively flooding/spamming rather any other reason. I could be wrong but it looks like when they were given permission to return they tried their best to drive traffic to their own cryptotalk forum and use it as a competitor to this forum (and also just in case they got banned again) but if that was the case they failed in making any dents here.

[TECSHARE]

The trust system should not be used as a wide net shotgunning device as it is not only ineffective, counterproductive, but serves to allow actual con artists to hide in the noise. The standard of "promoting a known scam" is essentially guilt via association and far too arbitrary.

I just want to make a note here that JollyGood excluded me today after I excluded him. Those of you who have accused me of trust system manipulation and retaliation for doing the same feel free to demonstrate holding to your principles by excluding him.

[Golgoth]

The trust system should not be used as a wide net shotgunning device as it is not only ineffective, counterproductive, but serves to allow actual con artists to hide in the noise. The standard of "promoting a known scam" is essentially guilt via association and far too arbitrary.

I just want to make a note here that JollyGood excluded me today after I excluded him. Those of you who have accused me of trust system manipulation and retaliation for doing the same feel free to demonstrate holding to your principles by excluding him.

He knows that most of Yobit campaign participants are peaceful and passive members and they won't exclude him from their trust list, neither doing any bad things against him.That's why he doesn't care of being like that.

[JollyGood]

Is it a "scam" or just a predatory "high risk" investment offering? Where is the line?

Is X10 scam "or just predatory high risk investment offering"?

What would most users consider as being the difference between the two of them? I see myself applying the two sides of the same coin analogy.

[eddie13]

Is it a "scam" or just a predatory "high risk" investment offering? Where is the line?

Is X10 scam "or just predatory high risk investment offering"?

What would most users consider as being the difference between the two of them? I see myself applying the two sides of the same coin analogy.

It's a good question.. That's why I asked..

Maybe Yobit will prove itself useful and help us find out..
What is the difference between Yobit and the last cases of campaigns advertising scams getting every advertiser red-tagged if they don't stop?
Yobit must be pretty borderline if it is so shady but this has not happened.. It is even allowed back after a spam ban.. Why?

If it's a scam enough to tag Vispillo over it then it is surely scam enough to tag all of the participants until removal no?

Starting with Vispillo, picking on Vispillo, and using it as a reason to tag just Vispillo, is a little fucked up if you won't even tag shitposters for advertising the same "scam"..


Not everyone sees situations the same way..
Obviously their are plenty of users in favot of Yobit being allowed to advertise here despite all these detractors.. Or it would be tagged up and run out of here by now, as usual..

Why don't you take it up with Yahoo?
There you have a highly trusted user in favor of it being allowed to advertise here, and if it wasn't for him, it would be banned and gone anyway..

[Vispilio]

If it's a scam enough to tag Vispillo over it then it is surely scam enough to tag all of the participants until removal no?

Starting with Vispillo, picking on Vispillo, and using it as a reason to tag just Vispillo, is a little fucked up if you won't even tag shitposters for advertising the same "scam"..

Not everyone sees situations the same way..
Obviously their are plenty of users in favot of Yobit being allowed to advertise here despite all these detractors.. Or it would be tagged up and run out of here by now, as usual..

...

Thanks for your insightful comments eddie,

the main underlying reason they are picking on me is because I was a top candidate for Chipmixer, and the DT Chipmixer mafia wants only their own people or alt accounts to benefit from that lucrative bounty...

No one in his right mind can agree with any of the insane babble produced on this thread, yet you have long standing DT members frothing over their mouths in league with NPC trolls going so far as calling me "beyond diabolical", etc.  

It's really a very petty circus and a disgrace to a once great forum who now sees some of its seemingly most trusted members sell their souls for a few dollars...

If this were a professional business or a respectable organization, well documented manipulators like suchmoon and marlboroza would be fired instantly for interfering with the livelihood and business of their employer (Chipmixer) because their fake character assassination job is actually hurting the chances of Chipmixer getting the representation it deserves on local boards.

I'll probably make a separate thread about this if I can find the time today, but I hope accounts ChipMixer and Darkstar_ are also watching and finally wake up to the total abuse of the Chipmixer campaign going on...

[Blacknavy]

Thanks for your extremely insightful comments eddie,

the main underlying reason they are picking on me is because I was a top candidate for Chipmixer, and the DT Chipmixer mafia wants only their own people or alt accounts to benefit from that lucrative bounty...

No one in his right mind can agree with any of the insane babble produced on this thread, yet you have long standing DT members frothing over their mouths in league with NPC trolls going so far as calling me "beyond diabolical", etc.  

It's really a very petty circus and a disgrace to a once great forum who now sees some of its seemingly most trusted members sell their souls for a few dollars...

If this were a professional business or a respectable organization, well documented manipulators like suchmoon and marlboroza would be fired instantly for interfering with the livelihood and business of their employer (Chipmixer) because their fake character assassination job is actually hurting the chances of Chipmixer getting the representation it deserves on local boards.

I'll probably make a separate thread about this if I can find the time today, but I hope accounts ChipMixer and Darkstar_ are also watching and finally wake up to the total abuse of the Chipmixer campaign going on...

Unfortunately, you are absolutely right.

[eddie13]

\

I doubt it has anything to do with ChipMixer..
Probably more to do with them being pissed off at you over woolowowooo...


It's not all just babbling..
I would be wearing that Yobit signature if it was something that I could feel good supporting, but it is not..

I bet I have a Yobit account older than anyone's in this thread.. I have been around it for its entire existence, and knew it was shit when I first laid eyes on it..

First they added the absolute shittiest of all shitcoins.. The exact correct thing to do to make all of cryptocurrency look like shit.. Even Cryptsy didn't add the likes of those complete shitcoins..
Newbies by the tens of thousands have probably gone there and lost all their money due to bad investment advice and being stupid..

The first exchange manipulated markets I have ever seen with their ROM.. I could have got that the first day, and I didn't touch it, and I can't believe how much stupid bought into that..

Then, they paid to SPAM this forum the worst I have ever seen from a single campaign, with a complete disregard for this place and the users here..
Absolute disrespect IMO and that is a greater sin to me than their stupid coin schemes..

You aren't going to catch me wearing a signature for Yobit no way..
Their are a lot of damn good reasons to dislike Yobit..

I'd be wearing some gambling signature long before I wear some Yobit signature, and I don't, because I don't feel good about promoting casino gambling either..

I'd be more in favor of tagging all Yobit signatures than tagging just you..

I like many points of your idealisms but you Turks have been offbase on a lot of shit..
I don't think being cocky and offensive is the way to go here either..

[nullius]

Behold!  An extreme “I didn’t get what I wanted!” tantrum which is slightly more interesting than a mundane sigspammer whine, because it emits from a current DT1 member (!) who, let me get this straight, is a merit source (!!) with high status on a local forum?

the main underlying reason they are picking on me is because I was a top candidate for Chipmixer, and the DT Chipmixer mafia wants only their own people or alt accounts to benefit from that lucrative bounty...

No one in his right mind can agree with any of the insane babble produced on this thread, yet you have long standing DT members frothing over their mouths in league with NPC trolls going so far as calling me "beyond diabolical", etc. 

[—further rambling snipped—]

No, you paranoid doofus, the reason why people are “picking on you” is that you are a pretentious little twit who defends the Yobit scam, insults the intelligence of people who are smarter than you, makes empty violent threats, insults others’ manhood and honour whereas you have neither, and—worst of all, in my opinion—covers for it all with childish misquotes of Nietzsche.

Unlike liberals, I do not so lightly make accusations of mental defect.  An adequate working definition of paranoia is the combination of:

• Delusions of grandeur:  Falsely believing yourself to be fantastically much greater than you actually are in reality.  (Protip:  Those who are actually grand needn’t desperately posture with hollow pretenses as you do.)
• Delusions of persecution:  Constructing in your mind some unrealistic scenario in which everybody is out to get you—and naturally, “they” are all out to get you because you are so great!  (I heard that the “DT Chipmixer mafia” is only a front for NSA reptilians on this forum; and you, the great Vispilio, have been targeted by them due to their discovery of your secret stolen birthright as King of the World.)

If you are actually convinced that a “DT Chipmixer mafia” is “picking on you” with “alt accounts” and “NPC trolls” to prevent the great Vispilio from attaining a coveted Chipmixer slot, then you are crazy; and your ideations about your perceived persecutors “frothing over their mouths” with “insane babble” is merely a projection of your own psychosis.

Or, I have an alternative hypothesis:  You are not only a liar, but a dumb one; thus alas!  The “Chipmixer mafia” theory is the best story that you can devise.  So, which is it?  Are you delusional, or are you so pitiful a wretch that you can’t even weave a plausible tall tale?  Not that I think those options are mutually exclusive!

It's really a very petty circus and a disgrace to a once great forum who now sees some of its seemingly most trusted members sell their souls for a few dollars...

Take it from the only person on this forum who is currently wearing an unpaid Chipmixer ad on principle, as a loose-cannon publicity stunt to promote privacy.  (My signature is not approved by DarkStar_ or ChipMixer; though I somehow doubt they disapprove, either.)  —One who, moreover, has casually told several campaign managers that I am moderately uninterested in ever having a paid ad of any kind.

It is quite revealing that in your small mind, you are only capable of imagining that everyone is only here for a “lucrative bounty”.

[Vispilio]

~~~ unemployed virgin imbecile begging for attention as per usual

Don't pollute threads with your off-topic inferiority complex nullius,

I know you get sexual pleasure from being intellectually overwhelmed, it's the closest substitute you can find for the real orgasms you must be desperately craving  ,

but we have much better things to do, so you'll have to go beg someone else. Bye.

[Blacknavy]

DarkStar said that there would likely be a few spots open next week. And then you were active only two days after this announcement, right?

This user recently woke up from a long period of inactivity.

Welcome ChipMixer GANGS

We missed you, welcome.

[Lauda]

Can someone please compile a list of all users wearing any Yobit signatures? Thanks.

I'd be more in favor of tagging all Yobit signatures than tagging just you..

This shouldn't happen at all. All these allegedly trustworthy members should voluntarily stop advertising a well-known scam. We are not talking about something that is allegedly a scam..
Unbelievable and frankly a very sad display for this forum.

[nullius]

Note the timestamps.  The desperate little boy who impugns the “manhood” of others lacks even the self-control to keep me on ignore.

https://web.archive.org/web/20200123074933/https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5219981.0#msg53678428

~~~ sockpuppet with extreme butthurt joining the crusade against intellect and virtue on this forum

[...]

Ignored,

https://web.archive.org/web/20200123080645/https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5219538.60#msg53679268

~~~ unemployed virgin imbecile begging for attention as per usual

Don't pollute threads with your off-topic inferiority complex nullius,

I know you get sexual pleasure from being intellectually overwhelmed, it's the closest substitute you can find for the real orgasms you must be desperately craving  ,

but we have much better things to do, so you'll have to go beg someone else. Bye.

And Vispilio, please keep your sick homoerotic fantasies to yourself.

it might make a man out of you yet

Also, don’t dish out extremely personal attacks if you can’t take them.  You insulted another man’s honour before his ancestors while threatening him, you insulted another man’s manhood, you insulted the intelligence of one of the forum’s high-intelligence moonstars—and you do all that, to “sell your soul” for a few scam Yodollars!  Whereas now, I will hold up a mirror to show what you most fear, your true face.  Just look above, at what you are revealing about yourself—the shame you reveal in public!  Disgusting.

Your Middle Eastern ancestors would spit on your face if they knew you would stoop to dishonorable lies

I would teach you a lesson that your ancestors would be proud of

I will teach you such a lesson.  And I will do it with the power of words.

[LoyceV]

Can someone please compile a list of all users wearing any Yobit signatures? Thanks.

I'm on it: I'll make a list of all users who have posted in the past 7 days, and have "yobit" in their profile. Give me a few hours, scraping 8290 profiles now.

[JollyGood]

Is it a "scam" or just a predatory "high risk" investment offering? Where is the line?

Is X10 scam "or just predatory high risk investment offering"?

What would most users consider as being the difference between the two of them? I see myself applying the two sides of the same coin analogy.

It's a good question.. That's why I asked..

Maybe Yobit will prove itself useful and help us find out..
What is the difference between Yobit and the last cases of campaigns advertising scams getting every advertiser red-tagged if they don't stop?
Yobit must be pretty borderline if it is so shady but this has not happened.. It is even allowed back after a spam ban.. Why?

If it's a scam enough to tag Vispillo over it then it is surely scam enough to tag all of the participants until removal no?

Starting with Vispillo, picking on Vispillo, and using it as a reason to tag just Vispillo, is a little fucked up if you won't even tag shitposters for advertising the same "scam"..


Not everyone sees situations the same way..
Obviously their are plenty of users in favot of Yobit being allowed to advertise here despite all these detractors.. Or it would be tagged up and run out of here by now, as usual..

Why don't you take it up with Yahoo?
There you have a highly trusted user in favor of it being allowed to advertise here, and if it wasn't for him, it would be banned and gone anyway..

I agree that not everybody will see everything in the same way. We all are entitled to our opinions and rightfully so.

I started this thread with the purpose of asking whether Merit Source or DT users should promote a known scam and explained "the banner he promotes could be from LLC1 or LTD2 or Company3, it would make no difference but it just so happens to be a Yobit banner"

I also explained a blanket ban just for displaying a banner should not warrant a tag unless exceptional circumstances and in my opinion when a user states he is promoting a scam and furthermore adds victims are blamed because they got scammed then yes that user deserves a tag in my opinion.

~snip~

Whether promoting a Yobit banner or any other banner it should not warrant a tag unless there are exceptional circumstances. I have not come across any exceptional circumstances that fit that description yet except for user Vispilio because he has openly stated he is promting a banner in full knowledge it is a scam and that is unacceptable. The banner he promotes could be from LLC1 or LTD2 or Company3, it would make no difference but it just so happens to be a Yobit banner.

Isn't Yahoo DT member and Yobit campaign manager also?
People are talking bad about everyone else except about Yahoo, that is something like taboo

I don't like yobit, but I think opening so many topics about it you give it free advertisement.

I am not sure how it all worked out but think there was some form of consensus that led to yahoo62278 being asked or volunteering to manage the Yobit campaign because of previous issues with either non-payment to participants or thread flooding (or maybe both). It has been quoted in several places he managed to clean up a lot the forum by banning several spammers and low-level trash posters which many users appreciated. I think only yahoo62278 can elaborate further or to correct me.

Having said that, this thread was not created about any user showing Yobit or any other banners. I have no interest in which user displays which banner or participates in which campaign unless when the user states he knows he is promoting a scam.

In the case of Vispilio, he is DT yet he is participating in a campaign promoting a project that he has himself labelled a scam. Furthermore he believes victims who fall prey to the scam are effectively to blame for getting scammed and on top of that he has no issues displaying the Yobit banner.

Why is this different from the other many, many users displaying Yobit banners and getting paid for it? As mentioned in the OP:

In simple terms, if a user promotes a scam but does not believe or accept it is a scam, then it is up to the community to present evidence to show them they are wrong.

If however a user openly states he knows he is promoting a scam and then fault blames victims for getting scammed then that clearly shows the user is unsuitable for any responsible role.

If you know of any other users that say they know the banner they are promoting is a scam then please let me know so I can open a thread highlighting them or kindly open a thread yourself and others will post their views there.

If it's a scam enough to tag Vispillo over it then it is surely scam enough to tag all of the participants until removal no?

The answer to the question is "no". I made it clear several times and the reason is above and I am highlighting it again below:

If however a user openly states he knows he is promoting a scam and then fault blames victims for getting scammed then that clearly shows the user is unsuitable for any responsible role.

If you know of any other users that say they know the banner they are promoting is a scam then please let me know so I can open a thread highlighting them or kindly open a thread yourself and others will post their views there.

There is a difference between somebody deliberately promoting something they believe to be a scam and somebody who promotes the same thing but does not believe it is a scam.

[eddie13]

There is a difference between somebody deliberately promoting something they believe to be a scam and somebody who promotes the same thing but does not believe it is a scam.

I'm not convinced that Vispillo thinks he is advertising a "scam".. I think he thinks he is advertising a somewhat useful exchange that also happens to have some very stupid "investments" and gimmicks associated with it..
I don't think he is maliciously trying to get people scammed..


Like I mentioned to you a while ago, YOU are the expert scambuster here.. Is it a "scam" or not?
All tags or no tags IMO..

I don't know if it's a "scam".. I know I don't like them because Yobit is a spam financier..
It's just as scammy to me as it was years ago and yet here they still are..

If ya'll pro scambusters think they are a scam then GOOD..
Get TF rid of them to where they won't come back already, and stop their spaming and all this drama over them..

a well-known scam. We are not talking about something that is allegedly a scam..

It looks like Lauda is quite confident that it's a scam..
Gotta admit that Lauda has some balls..

[wolwoo]

If you are sincere, you will drop yahoo from DT1. He is yobit's campaign manager and Dt1. If you are going to give negative feedback, give it to him first.
My messages are being deleted because I swear, I wrote this without swearing, let's see if it will be deleted again?

[Lauda]

a well-known scam. We are not talking about something that is allegedly a scam..

It looks like Lauda is quite confident that it's a scam..
Gotta admit that Lauda has some balls..

It's promising mathematically impossible returns.Therefore, it can objectively be nothing other than a scam. People can discuss semantics and their prior behavior all they want (e.g. individual cases of scamming users, of which there are quite many - for reference see all their negatives and the 3 flags that they have), but this is a fact. It's math, not religion. I'm actually quite surprised by the lack of outrage by certain members, but it just proves that this shift to the more decentralized trust system has some side effects. At the very least it is as political as it ever was, if not more.

Can someone please compile a list of all users wearing any Yobit signatures? Thanks.

I'm on it: I'll make a list of all users who have posted in the past 7 days, and have "yobit" in their profile. Give me a few hours, scraping 8290 profiles now.

Thank you!