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Author Topic: MtGox daily withdrawal $250 in BTC but $1000 in cash - RIDICULOUS!  (Read 2866 times)
AngelusWebDesign
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November 18, 2011, 05:26:43 PM
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I understand Mt. Gox is mindful of security these days, and that a "verified" account (one where the owner has sent in a utility bill, etc.) carries less risk than an unverified one.

The verified account should have higher withdrawal limits. Fine. No problem there.

But for the unverified accounts, why does Mt. Gox allow only 1/4 as much withdrawal in BTC as they allow in US dollars?
For the unverified, risky, "could be a hacker for all we know" accounts, they could pull out $1000 in USD per day -- which is apparently a balance between convenience and risk.

SO WHY CAN THEY WITHDRAW ONLY $250 worth of BTC every day?  

The actual amount is 100 BTC -- but Helllloooo McFly, BTC aren't 10 bucks anymore! Try $2.50, and they've been around $3 for a long, long time.

I'm not saying Mt. Gox needs to update their withdrawal amount on a daily basis -- but come on!  How about whenever there's a major sea change in the price of Bitcoin? Maybe once a month?

I don't think I'm nitpicking here. $250 is not enough to buy much in BTC. Who wants to spend 3 days withdrawing BTC so they can buy something with it? Is Mt. Gox TRYING to kill Bitcoin? It doesn't even make sense.
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DeathAndTaxes
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November 18, 2011, 05:35:25 PM
 #2

I have no idea why they don't have a floating limit.
If someone's cash limit is $1K couldn't the exchange calculate a BTC limit automatically based on weighted average of say last 30 days (~$3) which would be ~350 coins?

I guess the larger issue is don't keep your coins @ Mt.Gox except those you are converting to USD.
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November 18, 2011, 05:41:19 PM
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It says quite a lot about the amateurism of Bitcoin that the largest (and essentially only real) exchange has such tiny withdrawal limits.  Any business that does more than $1000/day in gross sales has yet another disincentive to try out Bitcoin, since their money will be essentially held hostage by the exchange for fear of crashing the price.  And if another 30% dip in value occurs while you're trying to cash out, well, tough titties.


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AngelusWebDesign
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November 18, 2011, 06:02:57 PM
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Yes, whoever hacked Mt. Gox TRULY SUCCEEDED in destroying Bitcoin, it would seem. They forced Mt. Gox to become paranoid, to the point that most businesses wouldn't be able to put up with the hoops and restrictions -- like I said, they destroyed Bitcoin.

Just like 9/11 -- if we become a freaking police state, with no personal freedoms, checkpoints everywhere, super-inconvenient air travel, constant monitoring of the populace -- sure, those "camel jockeys" won't be crashing another plane any time soon, but then you have to ask yourself WHO WON? They did, obviously. If America has to destroy herself to be safe, then the so-called terrorists have won. Who doesn't realize that? (Of course, the whole "Muslims did it" theory is a bunch of hogwash, but I digress)

Destroying Bitcoin as a viable currency is much, much worse than what the hackers did to Mt. Gox several months ago. That only affected a few people, and the financial effect of their hack has long since passed. But forcing Mt. Gox to become full-fledged paranoid? THAT is killing Bitcoin, affecting ALL users, on a DAILY basis.

nmat
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November 18, 2011, 06:11:27 PM
 #5

This limit was set when the price was higher, just like the transaction fees (I don't see anyone complaining about cheap fees though).

Anyway, I also think that it doesn't make much sense. One simple option I would like MtGox to have in order to protect against some attacks is confirmation by email on withdrawals.
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Gerald Davis


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November 18, 2011, 06:16:04 PM
 #6

This limit was set when the price was higher, just like the transaction fees (I don't see anyone complaining about cheap fees though).

Anyway, I also think that it doesn't make much sense. One simple option I would like MtGox to have in order to protect against some attacks is confirmation by email on withdrawals.

How exactly is a % based fee cheaper now?
nmat
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November 18, 2011, 06:19:31 PM
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How exactly is a % based fee cheaper now?

Because with the same amount of money you move a lot more coins now that prices went down. The fee percentage is based on your trading volume in BTC.
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Gerald Davis


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November 18, 2011, 06:22:29 PM
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How exactly is a % based fee cheaper now?

Because with the same amount of money you move a lot more coins now that prices went down.

Um if the coins are worth less, then it takes more coins to equal the same transaction value.

It would be like saying your boss is going to give you a pay raise by paying you in $10 bills instead of $100 bills.  You get 10x as many pieces of paper so you must be getting paid more right?
AngelusWebDesign
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November 18, 2011, 06:25:20 PM
 #9

So, to clarify --

If someone hacked my account, they couldn't withdraw more than 100 BTC or $250 per day. (Yay!)
But they could just sell my few hundred BTC -- which requires no special verification -- and withdraw the whole USD amount of $1000 in one day (Oops!)

So how is restricting BTC to $250/day helping with security?

That's like putting 5 deadbolts on one door, while having another door (leading to the same room) standing wide open.

In conclusion, there's NOTHING Mt. Gox could say that would excuse this ridiculous policy.
nmat
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November 18, 2011, 06:32:02 PM
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Um if the coins are worth less, then it takes more coins to equal the same transaction value.

It would be like saying your boss is going to give you a pay raise by paying you in $10 bills instead of $100 bills.  You get 10x as many pieces of paper so you must be getting paid more right?

The transaction volume is in Bitcoins. The fees were announced on August 24th when bitcoins were worth $10. If you traded $5000 per month in August, you had 0.5% fees (500 coins). Right now you will get 0.3% fees for moving the same $5000 per month (10000 coins).
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Gerald Davis


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November 18, 2011, 06:59:21 PM
 #11

Um if the coins are worth less, then it takes more coins to equal the same transaction value.

It would be like saying your boss is going to give you a pay raise by paying you in $10 bills instead of $100 bills.  You get 10x as many pieces of paper so you must be getting paid more right?

The transaction volume is in Bitcoins. The fees were announced on August 24th when bitcoins were worth $10. If you traded $5000 per month in August, you had 0.5% fees (500 coins). Right now you will get 0.3% fees for moving the same $5000 per month (10000 coins).

I gotcha now.  Didn't realize the fee varies based on BTC volume. 
phantomcircuit
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November 18, 2011, 08:45:12 PM
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Um if the coins are worth less, then it takes more coins to equal the same transaction value.

It would be like saying your boss is going to give you a pay raise by paying you in $10 bills instead of $100 bills.  You get 10x as many pieces of paper so you must be getting paid more right?

The transaction volume is in Bitcoins. The fees were announced on August 24th when bitcoins were worth $10. If you traded $5000 per month in August, you had 0.5% fees (500 coins). Right now you will get 0.3% fees for moving the same $5000 per month (10000 coins).

I gotcha now.  Didn't realize the fee varies based on BTC volume. 

The bitcoin withdrawal limit has nothing to do with bitcoin network fees.

It's clearly a counter measure to avoid what happened in June.
P4man
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November 18, 2011, 09:06:33 PM
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One  reason I could think off, is that withdraws in US$ would be traceable, or even reversible in the case of fraud, but in BTCs thats respectively very difficult and impossible.

AngelusWebDesign
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November 18, 2011, 09:56:27 PM
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One  reason I could think off, is that withdraws in US$ would be traceable, or even reversible in the case of fraud, but in BTCs thats respectively very difficult and impossible.

More difficult and impossible than when 100 BTC was worth $1000? Mt. Gox didn't seem to hold that position back when BTC were $10 each, and the withdrawal limits were at parity (1 to 1).

You act as if they always considered BTC withdrawals more risky than USD withdrawals. If that were so, they wouldn't have EVER set a similar withdrawal limit for BTC & USD. But they did.

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November 18, 2011, 10:06:02 PM
 #15

Have you contacted them and asked to increase your limit? For most people these limits would be plenty and provide some security. I got a daily cash limit on my bankcard thats not much higher on regular ATMs, if I want more I just have to make a call or go to my banks selfbank ATM.
But for a business, Im sure they will increase those limits on demand.

DeathAndTaxes
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November 18, 2011, 10:13:20 PM
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Have you contacted them and asked to increase your limit? For most people these limits would be plenty and provide some security. I got a daily cash limit on my bankcard thats not much higher on regular ATMs, if I want more I just have to make a call or go to my banks selfbank ATM.
But for a business, Im sure they will increase those limits on demand.

You can raise the cash limit but not BTC limit (or at least you couldn't 3 months ago).
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November 18, 2011, 10:28:34 PM
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just ran up against this 100 Btc limit today when I wished to do an arbitrage sell on another exchange & hence lost the opportunity, have now uploaded pics of ID & utility bill today for verified much larger withdrawals - will post how long this takes & any hiccups, also really what's the point for Mt.Gox as when withdrawing in Btc any random uploaded stuff would do & probably for $ etc too - it's not like they can confirm any photo of an ID or address is actually tied to any specific account holder unless they're the CIA or something, so it's just an inconvenience & breach of privacy for normal users & np to spoof for bad guys just like 99% of these restrictions that companies cook up in the name of security unless I've missed something here, real security would be offering to let you permanently set an irrevocable dedicated Bitcoin address that you can only W/D to for high amounts & the same for $ etc W/Ds, my favourite is bullionvault.com where funds can only be W/D to the exact same unique bank account that they were originally funded from

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November 19, 2011, 12:53:29 AM
 #18

just ran up against this 100 Btc limit today when I wished to do an arbitrage sell on another exchange & hence lost the opportunity, have now uploaded pics of ID & utility bill today for verified much larger withdrawals - will post how long this takes & any hiccups, also really what's the point for Mt.Gox as when withdrawing in Btc any random uploaded stuff would do & probably for $ etc too - it's not like they can confirm any photo of an ID or address is actually tied to any specific account holder unless they're the CIA or something, so it's just an inconvenience & breach of privacy for normal users & np to spoof for bad guys just like 99% of these restrictions that companies cook up in the name of security unless I've missed something here, real security would be offering to let you permanently set an irrevocable dedicated Bitcoin address that you can only W/D to for high amounts & the same for $ etc W/Ds, my favourite is bullionvault.com where funds can only be W/D to the exact same unique bank account that they were originally funded from

It took them about 4 weeks to tell me a phone bill wasn't good enough (with my id) as proof when I requested a limit increase.  I sent them my ID again with utility bill about 4 weeks ago and haven't heard anything back yet.  Their response times are pretty poor.

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November 19, 2011, 01:58:36 AM
 #19

SO WHY CAN THEY WITHDRAW ONLY $250 worth of BTC every day?  

There is a very simple answer to that.
MtGox is building a fractional reserve, trying to make more money on the money they already have.
They are very probably investing money of their users using external entities. It's a no-brainer.


I don't think I'm nitpicking here. $250 is not enough to buy much in BTC. Who wants to spend 3 days withdrawing BTC so they can buy something with it? Is Mt. Gox TRYING to kill Bitcoin?

No, they are slowly killing themselves.
It's good for bitcoin, we need more serious exchanges and less crappy exchanges.

It is possible to actually create a totally hardened, hack-free exchange without crazy withdrawal limits, but not everybody is competent enough for the job.

MtGox will be replaced by better exchanges - sooner or later. It's called free farket.


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November 19, 2011, 04:07:06 AM
 #20

I think people using an MtGox yubikey, should be allowed to withdraw more.

100btc cap is indeed ridiculously low.

We need better exchange replace MtGox as THE exchange.
If I was trading I'd give cryptoxchange a try, really nice UI / features.
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