Cleobet: Another betb2b (1xbet/1xbit) clone - Flag to be supported

[efialtis]

That shady 1xbet/1xbit group is launching new clones as if it was nothing.

Just a few days ago, another crypto bookmaker named Cleobet popped up and launched a signature campaign here on bitcointalk. Visiting their website, one would immediately notice that their website is looking almost exactly the same as 1xbet and several other clones that this group is running. Just for the record even though I may be repeating myself: That group has been scamming lots of players for a long time.


Please support the flag here: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=trust;flag=1519


Just a few minutes ago, they finally posted their ANN thread and I took the chance to ask them about their relation with betb2b. Have a look at their response and my reaction:

Hello,

Thank you for the messages.
We have no association in any way with 1xbit / 1xbet / betb2b. We have developed our own platform and have our own license. We understand your questions / comments, but we are a completely different company.

That´s actually impossible, sorry - I may believe you are operating "independently" - stating you have developed your own platform, well, thats simply not true... I really hate to do/say this but with your first response - which came quickly, thanks for that - you have already disqualified yourselves. No association in any way cant be true based on the fact that your platform is exactly the same that is being used by 1xbet/1xbit and the hundreds of clones all over the net.

Then they asked me why I think its impossible that their platform is built from scratch by them... They really did as if we were fools... Have a look:

That´s actually impossible, sorry - I may believe you are operating "independently" - stating you have developed your own platform, well, thats simply not true...

May I ask you why this is impossible, according to your vision?

Are you really asking this?

Okay, here we go: Not only does your website/platform look exactly the same as 1xbet and several other betb2b clones - I am not just talking about design aspects where you could argue you were "inspired" - the whole structure is the same, even the registration procedure as well as the wording. This is not a uniquely built platform - we are no fools.

So, long story short, please read this to see why I am saying what I am saying: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5230966.msg54145586#msg54145586

Their next statement being that they have a different sports betting selection:

You are talking about the whole structure:
Perhaps it helps if you compare the offer of our sport events (sports / odds) with that of 1xbit / 1xbet.

Those differ completely from eachother.

You arent helping yourselves with your replies so far - even though I appreciate that you do answer!

The sports betting selection being different? First of all, its actually not completely different when comparing it with all those sites. And then, it doesnt need to be identical to prove me right - that betb2b platform (of course) allows you to choose.

By the way: Here in your ANN you are saying there is a 1 BTC welcome deposit bonus - on your website/platform, that you have build from scratch and completely on your own, you are saying 5 BTC... So whats it gonna be?

They definitely made their homework - when googling, you cant find any connection, new license etc. Using the very same platform though and then stating you have build it from scratch... well, I think I dont need to comment on this - its a pure joke, just visit the sites and you will see.

There is only one scenario that could have helped cleobet - if they claimed that they rent the platform while running their shop completely independently. I highly doubt that this is even possible with betb2b but... we could speak about some benefit of the doubt, maybe they didnt know how shady that group is, whatever. Well, unfortunately for them and fortunately for us, they disqualified themselves and we can warn people before its too late.

See screenshots of cleobet & 1xbet/1xbit below - registration process is almost identical... this is not just "inspiration", it´s the same platform. Same UI etc. Even their Terms and Conditions are identical (wording, structure) etc.

cleobet.io

1xbet

1xbit

[Timelord2067]

I tried unsuccessfully overnight to join their new Signature Campaign.

What struck me was those chosen typically had just five or six merits and their post numbers where barely into the thousands.  My own merit count in the last 120 days stands at 79 and my post count is close to 5,400.  It's not sour grapes - the Campaign Manager can choose as he pleases, but I'm wondering if there's a connection between the CM and the previous games? 

OP: You've been monitoring these shill game sites, - have they used the same CM?  Are the participants of the SigCamp's the same users (ie shill accounts)??

[logfiles]

Quite sad how this brand-new gambling platforms are popping out of no where and the first dumping place for their signature campaigns is bitcointalk. I mean am not against brandnew projects promoting themselves here but this trend is quite getting more and more familiar as time goes by. It's like someone knows that their previous service got busted here and as soon as they launch a new service with a few new modifications, they rush to bitcointalk to launch a signature campaign thinking people won't notice anything off

[Cleobet]

These accusations are completely ridiculous.
We have already indicated that we do not have a business relationship with 1xbit / 1xbet or a related construction.
We have rebuilt the betb2b platform with fewer functionalities (no casino and a smaller sports offer).


Regarding troll efialtis:
User efialtis only has 1 goal, and that is to take down Cleobet.io
He aefialtis is paid by a competitor in the gambling sector to shake up the image of sportsbooks, this is against the rules of the forum. Moderators: Please keep an eye on efialtis
He is getting paid by a bookmaker, trying to take down competitiors with false accusations. THis is against the forum rules.
He has already done this several times with various sports books and remains busy, evidence is abundantly clear.

If customers of our side have issues or negative experience, they are welcome to post it here.
But do not talk nothing only with intention to slander like efialtis.

[joeperry]

-snip-

Good day Timelord2067

If you're going to take a look the way I accepted the participants I based it on first come, first serve basis it is listed on the spreadsheet the way I accepted them. (Started from first 7 Senior member+2 Legendary that wants to be included as Senior member, first 7 Hero Members and first 8 Legendary Members that is fit in the requirements)

I accepted the users since they fit to our requirements, the campaign did not indicate that the higher the merit the higher the chances they would be accepted although it would be logical that they are more constructive than others.

And I can definitely assure that I don't have any relation to any of the participants and with the "previous games" you're saying, below are the list of all the campaign I Managed and handle:

inSure Signature Campaign (Active)
inSure Bounty Campaign (Active)
Ispolink Signature Campaing (Active - Design and created by me but posted using the owner's account and not mine)
Ispolink Bounty Campaign (Active - Design and created by me but posted using the owner's account and not mine)

but feel free to investigate my relationship to the users that I accepted. Here's my stake address (The only address I'm using): Stake Address

Sincerely,
Joe

[Avirunes]

[....]

I don't think so. There are many things that your site-cleobet and 1xbet/1xbit have in common starting from the terms and conditions. One of you has copied each other's TOC but since you are a new sportsbook, I would guess it as you.

So let me give you an overview: either you have plagiarized their TOC (red flag) or you both are same which explains the copied content but makes you related to 1xbet/1xbit. Whichever way you go there is a flag for sure.


Regarding efialtis attacking, there are lot of sportsbook and he doesn't seems like he is attacking any other sportsbook out there. He seems to be pretty focused with 1xbit/1xbet circle of scam sportsbook and he is doing so to protect people out here.

[SyGambler]

These accusations are completely ridiculous.
We have already indicated that we do not have a business relationship with 1xbit / 1xbet or a related construction.
We have rebuilt the betb2b platform with fewer functionalities (no casino and a smaller sports offer).

just curious when a site offers betb2b services who is in charge of payments ? last accusation about kawbet it was clear that they use the same payment system that 1xbet/bit use so is that the case here as well ?
why would you use betb2b in first place while there are other service providers ?

[Lauda]

efialtis alleges: Due largely to the factors mentioned in this topic, I believe that anyone dealing with Cleobet is at a high risk of losing money, and guests would be well-advised to avoid doing so. This determination is based on concrete red flags which any knowledgeable & reasonable forum user should agree with, and it is not based on the user's opinions.
Support: Lauda, Avirunes, tyKiwanuka, efialtis
Opposition: DarkStar_

DarkStar?

[DarkStar_]

I opposed the flag for now. It's not entirely clear that they are utilizing 1xBet/betb2b services, and I think it's much more likely that this is an in house solution very very heavily inspired by 1xbet's GUI or some copied interface code.

As far as I'm aware, betb2b offers one in-house probabilities feed (and maybe one 'averaged' odds feed that aggregates odds from other books). The first thing I looked at was Cleobet's implied probabilities, and it doesn't match 1xbet's implied probabilities, a reasonable aggregate line or any other obvious provider (sportsradar). Upon further investigation, they're utilizing a snapshot of bet365 odds at a certain time period, without active movement. There's zero reason to run this way besides lacking a proper odds feed and just scraping odds from a known provider. BitGame.online (shady for different reasons) ran similarly with copying Unibet lines. Other betb2b books such as Melbet might have different odds, but implied probabilities are the same (different vig).

I'm inclined to believe that they are telling the truth about "rebuilding" (copying) the interface of 1xbet. I completely understand efialtis's concerns though; it's the reasonable assumption after seeing new 1xbet clones pop up recently.

[Lauda]

I'm inclined to believe that they are telling the truth about "rebuilding" (copying) the interface of 1xbet. I completely understand efialtis's concerns though; it's the reasonable assumption after seeing new 1xbet clones pop up recently.

Understandable, but this does not make it that much better (rebuilding somebody else's interface). Right?

[DarkStar_]

I'm inclined to believe that they are telling the truth about "rebuilding" (copying) the interface of 1xbet. I completely understand efialtis's concerns though; it's the reasonable assumption after seeing new 1xbet clones pop up recently.

Understandable, but this does not make it that much better (rebuilding somebody else's interface). Right?

What this means for me is that they aren't a proven scam (1xbet has 100% confirmed scammed lots of players - Cleobet has not) and while copying interfaces/code might be less ethical, I haven't seen any flags opened for those cases in the past. For example, no one has flagged the various mixers that copied text from other mixers using that as the reason. I can't support this claim in good faith with the evidence in the thread:

I believe that anyone dealing with Cleobet is at a high risk of losing money

[Lauda]

I'm inclined to believe that they are telling the truth about "rebuilding" (copying) the interface of 1xbet. I completely understand efialtis's concerns though; it's the reasonable assumption after seeing new 1xbet clones pop up recently.

Understandable, but this does not make it that much better (rebuilding somebody else's interface). Right?

What this means for me is that they aren't a proven scam (1xbet has 100% confirmed scammed lots of players - Cleobet has not) and while copying interfaces/code might be less ethical, I haven't seen any flags opened for those cases in the past. For example, no one has flagged the various mixers that copied text from other mixers using that as the reason. I can't support this claim in good faith with the evidence in the thread:

I believe that anyone dealing with Cleobet is at a high risk of losing money

Fair. I have given them a negative rating therefore while this plays out.

[DarkStar_]

To explain what I'm talking about a bit more:
Belarus Premier League match between Shakhtyor Soligorsk and Neman:
Cleobet offers 1.4/4/7.5, which was the bet365 opening line. Bet365 did not have line movement until April 3rd, and they took their snapshot sometime late April 2nd (MST). These are the odds offered by Cleobet, 1xbet and an estimated aggregate line (I have no idea if b2bet actually offers an aggregate and the books they would use if they did) on this match, as of posting. Implied probabilities in brackets.

Book	1	X	2
Cleobet	1.4 (65.08%)	4 (22.78%)	7.5 (12.15%)
1xbet	1.384 (70.45%)	4.94 (19.70%)	9.9 (9.85%)
Estimated Aggregate	1.38 (68.19%)	4.5 (20.91%)	8.64 (10.89%)

The probabilities and odds differ enough to say that Cleobet is not using a b2bet odds feed. A sportsbook using such a feed but with higher margin would still have the same general implied probability (with some rounding errors potentially). You can check all of their other lines and you'll find they all match up to the bet365 line at one point.


I think that Cleobet will end up as a scam, or at the very least, there's going to be lots of complaints against them. bet365 is a very soft book by itself; throw in stale lines, cryptocurrency, a deposit bonus and you've got an arbitrage player or value bettor's new favourite book. Unless Cleobet is really on top of rapidly limiting sharp players, which I think is highly unlikely as I doubt they know what they're doing, they're going to get quite a few players draining them and winning long term. They're definitely going to get into voided bet territory, blocking accounts who 'break' their TOS, cancelled bonuses/withdraws and forced KYC. I have nothing to prove this though, so I'm opposing the flag for now.

You might argue that this reasoning in itself is enough to warrant supporting the flag, but I thought similarly of BitGame.online's sportsbook with soft Unibet lines and odds boosts, and their sportsbook never scammed anyone AFAIK. Maybe I'll be wrong and they'll end up rapidly limiting long term profitable players, while making lots of profit off of recreational players who don't care at all.

[efialtis]

Even if it was true - Cleobet not being connected with that group in any way - Still can´t believe it, sorry but fine, let´s assume they arent...

That would mean: They have blatantly copied another bookmaker´s website in a way you havent seen before. They have copied design, UI, hell, even T&Cs. Worse, they copied the shadiest one there is out there...

Where I live... that´s illegal, criminal - one could have them shut down for that. Yeah, good for them its still wild wild west...

As a conclusion: That alone forces me to flag them and continue asking for flag support - Based on what I am seeing, I just cant advise anyone taking a risk by depositing money on that site.

Additional note: I do understand Darkstar´s position and I personally also hate to do this, especially with new crypto businesses - I just think there is a risk in this case and people shouldnt take it.

[DarkStar_]

Even if it was true - Cleobet not being connected with that group in any way - Still can´t believe it, sorry but fine, let´s assume they arent...

It would be absolutely idiotic to have access to much better and much more profitable odds data and decide to use stale bet365 lines instead. I'm confident that they are not affiliated with them.

Other points are fair - I've decided that I can't actively oppose the flag but I won't support it (yet) due to the reasons mentioned.

[SyGambler]

actually DarkStar_ is right , I took a deeper look across the site and now comparing the odds for available sports
odds are much different between cleo and 1xbet , there is no way that they actually belong to 1xbet ( actually there are possible arbitrage bets between these two sites or bets that have really small -EV )

[Lauda]

odds are much different between cleo and 1xbet , there is no way that they actually belong to 1xbet ( actually there are possible arbitrage bets between these two sites or bets that have really small -EV )

This is false. If I was behind 1xbet and my casino clones were getting caught quickly, this is precisely one of the things that I would do. Obfuscation it is called, look it up. The correct statement is: It is possible.

[tyKiwanuka]

The thing that baffles me: You don't just open a betting site, if you have previously been running a fruit shop. You are likely to have been in and around this realm for some time and know how this industry works, the problems, the risks, the black sheeps.

Now how in the world, do you put up a site that has so many similarities to one of the worst books in this space in terms of reputation ? This makes no sense to me, if you are trying to establish yourself as a legit and trustworthy company. You are just harming your business right from the get go, which could be avoided rather easily.

I am always willing to give new bookmakers the benefit of the doubt, but every one of them, that can be linked to "1xbet group" - even just by the look of it - should be taken with a grain of salt. And the more experienced users/betting people should at least raise their concerns to create awareness for newbies. What each and everyone does with this information is up to them then.

As a general advice, you can always take your chances with new bookmakers, but use small stakes/deposits to begin with. Make regular withdrawals and look for reviews and experiences from fellow punters. This is no holy grail to not get scammed, but a proper way to minimize the risk. And most of the time you will find the same bets/odds in other, maybe more established and trustworthy, bookmakers anyway.

[target]

They are persistent at what they are doing just as they repeatedly do the same website design over and over. Even their domain always have a word "bet" on it.  

Must be frustrating for them after several attempts. Right now, they might just be looking for new steps and design to make a success in promoting a scam casino. Be observant.

[Lauda]

The thing that baffles me: You don't just open a betting site, if you have previously been running a fruit shop. You are likely to have been in and around this realm for some time and know how this industry works, the problems, the risks, the black sheeps.

Now how in the world, do you put up a site that has so many similarities to one of the worst books in this space in terms of reputation ? This makes no sense to me, if you are trying to establish yourself as a legit and trustworthy company. You are just harming your business right from the get go, which could be avoided rather easily.

I am always willing to give new bookmakers the benefit of the doubt, but every one of them, that can be linked to "1xbet group" - even just by the look of it - should be taken with a grain of salt. And the more experienced users/betting people should at least raise their concerns to create awareness for newbies. What each and everyone does with this information is up to them then.

As a general advice, you can always take your chances with new bookmakers, but use small stakes/deposits to begin with. Make regular withdrawals and look for reviews and experiences from fellow punters. This is no holy grail to not get scammed, but a proper way to minimize the risk. And most of the time you will find the same bets/odds in other, maybe more established and trustworthy, bookmakers anyway.

Occam's razor says Cleobet = betb2b (1xbet/1xbit). Apparently many people are not familiar with this concept and prefer speculating in theories with dozens of assumptions rather than those with few.