Riots after Death of Man in Minneapolis Police Custody

[PopoJeff]

Nooooooooo.......... I haven't implied anything so don't be misrepresenting what I have said.I have stated facts that are true and correct and not selective factes or half truths to collaborate with ANY narrative.I am neither Left or Right.I am in favour of reason and rational thought only and for someone to implicate presented facts as a white supremacist form of argument indicates a bias or wilful ingnorance or worse still blatant left wing extremist form of response. I am provoking rational thought which any sane person would be able to interpret as a logical argument.

Ok, be explicit then.  Do you think white people are superior to black people when it comes to being a productive member of society?

If not, then what is your explanation for the facts. (white vs black crime, income, education, health, etc)

Ah stop being so ridiculous.Nobody is generalizing any race or claiming superiority.Your retorts are like that of any other Left Wing Extremist who slanders anyone who has a differing opinion to this media frenzy,as a white supremacist.You obviously have a personal bias towards the "movement" whereas I don't......
Be gone with your fucking nonsense :-)

Twitch has received his new talking points, and he gonna talk them.

Actually using brain cells is NOT part of the requirement for Internet Democratic Operatives, and in fact is a negative.

seems like fine question by twitch.  i dont get all the personal attacks on him hes being reasonable and just sharing his thoughts and asking about yours isnt that why we come to a forum like this?

I agree with pretty much everyone who's attacked me that we have to look at the facts.  And I'm not questioning the facts they've presented.

An American Black person is more likely to commit a crime, live in poverty, be less healthy and less educated than an American White person.

The question I'm asking is why?

I've shared my opinion already, but I'm open minded and able to have my mind changed....what do you guys think?

The WHY behind the matter can never be pinned down exactly. We'd love to find the one explanation and blame it on that, but there is no ONE explanation.

We'd love to say 'systemic racism' or 'institutional racism' in the US.... but those are made up theories that are easily disproven when you look outside the US to find very similar racial disparities in other countries and continents.

We'd love to say 'redlining' practices of some cities kept the blacks in poverty areas, but you'll find research that shows there were more white people in those areas.

The so called 'experts' in race shaming whites for the plight of the blacks are actually the biggest racists of them all, including the Democratic Party. Just think how racist it is to think so poorly of black people that you feel the need to speak for their kind and explain why they can't get ahead without your help.


I cant say I have the one answer to your question, and I doubt there is one answer.  There are so many exceptions to the rule, that it's really not a rule anymore.
   There are successful people of EVERY race and gender in every level of the economy and government. We're Sooooooo racist in the US that we had a black President. And we see failures from every race too.

I've seen scientific studies indicating darker pigmented mammals have higher levels of testosterone. Higher levels of testosterone decrease intelligence and increase propensity for violence. I've seen studies of increased breakdown of the family structure being a clue. Absentee fathers. Etc...

There are so any generalizations with shaky evidence, that I doubt most of the theories.

In my opinion, there's no ONE answer, but I put a lot of weight on individual responsibility and the lack of it in the poorer black neighborhoods. When the elitist liberals, entire Democratic Party, and the left-owned media tell you day after day that your life is someone else's fault, the government will pay/feed/save you, you are owed something for doing nothing, and white people hate you......  why the heck should you think any differently and take responsibility for your own life?  

And to keep 'on topic' to avoid biased moderation.... Riots are counterproductive, only reinforcing stereotypes.


But if you think it's all about race, and has nothing to do with one political party manipulating as much as they can to keep themselves in power, you'd be a fool.

A Democratic President's words... not mine.

https://www.goodreads.com/author/quotes/15769.Lyndon_B_Johnson

“I'll have them niggers voting Democratic for the next two hundred years. [Said to two governors regarding the Civil Rights Act of 1964, according to then-Air Force One steward Robert MacMillan]”
― Lyndon B. Johnson
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“This is the next and the more profound stage of the battle for civil rights. We seek not just freedom but opportunity. We seek not just legal equity but human ability, not just equality as a right and a theory but equality as a fact and equality as a result.”
― Lyndon B. Johnson
tags: civil-rights, equality, gender, race 1 likes
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“Better to have your enemies inside the tent pissing out, than outside the tent pissing in.”
― Lyndon B. Johnson
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“As long as you are black, and you’re gonna be black till the day you die, no one’s gonna call you by your goddamn name. So no matter what you are called, nigger, you just let it roll off your back like water, and you’ll make it. Just pretend you’re a goddamn piece of furniture.[To hi chauffer Robert Parker, when Parker said he’d prefer to be referred to by his name rather than "boy," "nigger" or "chief."]”
― Lyndon B. Johnson
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“I'm going to have to bring up the nigger bill again. [Said to a southern U.S. Senator upon the occasion of the Republicans re-introducing the Civil Right Act of 1957, according to LBJ's Special Counsel Harry McPherson.]”
― Lyndon B. Johnson

[1714773098]

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[Spendulus]

....
I agree with pretty much everyone who's attacked me that we have to look at the facts.  And I'm not questioning the facts they've presented.

An American Black person is more likely to commit a crime, live in poverty, be less healthy and less educated than an American White person.

The question I'm asking is why?

Your use of statistics is incorrect.

Suppose you and I line up with several other people who happen to be black. Of any number of strong statistical factors, making us similar and different, race is a WEAK FACTOR.
I suspect it's a very, very weak factor. Those of us in inter racial marriages and families really laugh at this kind of analysis. But your political environment wants to focus on that as the MOST IMPORTANT FACTOR.

Thus I have to agree with others that the premises on which your questions are based are flawed, but that's only due to your work as a Democratic Operative. I understand, you're not in control of what they tell you to parrot, the talking points for this week.

[TwitchySeal]

Nooooooooo.......... I haven't implied anything so don't be misrepresenting what I have said.I have stated facts that are true and correct and not selective factes or half truths to collaborate with ANY narrative.I am neither Left or Right.I am in favour of reason and rational thought only and for someone to implicate presented facts as a white supremacist form of argument indicates a bias or wilful ingnorance or worse still blatant left wing extremist form of response. I am provoking rational thought which any sane person would be able to interpret as a logical argument.

Ok, be explicit then.  Do you think white people are superior to black people when it comes to being a productive member of society?

If not, then what is your explanation for the facts. (white vs black crime, income, education, health, etc)

Ah stop being so ridiculous.Nobody is generalizing any race or claiming superiority.Your retorts are like that of any other Left Wing Extremist who slanders anyone who has a differing opinion to this media frenzy,as a white supremacist.You obviously have a personal bias towards the "movement" whereas I don't......
Be gone with your fucking nonsense :-)

Twitch has received his new talking points, and he gonna talk them.

Actually using brain cells is NOT part of the requirement for Internet Democratic Operatives, and in fact is a negative.

seems like fine question by twitch.  i dont get all the personal attacks on him hes being reasonable and just sharing his thoughts and asking about yours isnt that why we come to a forum like this?

I agree with pretty much everyone who's attacked me that we have to look at the facts.  And I'm not questioning the facts they've presented.

An American Black person is more likely to commit a crime, live in poverty, be less healthy and less educated than an American White person.

The question I'm asking is why?

I've shared my opinion already, but I'm open minded and able to have my mind changed....what do you guys think?

The WHY behind the matter can never be pinned down exactly. We'd love to find the one explanation and blame it on that, but there is no ONE explanation.

We'd love to say 'systemic racism' or 'institutional racism' in the US.... but those are made up theories that are easily disproven when you look outside the US to find very similar racial disparities in other countries and continents.

I understand you don't believe systemic racism exists.  I disagree.  But for arguments sake lets say I agree with you and systemic racism is no longer a possible cause.  What are some possible causes?  One logical explanation would be that White people are just better suited in some biological way to lead a successful life and contribute to society.  I honestly can't think of any others.  Can you?

[TECSHARE]

"Black Lives Matter Co-Founder Says ‘Our Goal Is to Get Trump Out’"

https://www.theepochtimes.com/black-lives-matter-co-founder-says-our-goal-is-to-get-trump-out_3395820.html

[coins4commies]

We were assuming his opinions were based on racist, white supremacist ideas but that post is full of evidence that makes it much more than an assumption now.  Be wary of anyone whose posts use individual examples to dispel systemic racism.   Systemic racism never implied that every single black person's success was prevented.  

Take leaded water as one piece of the racist pie.  You can have lead leech into a population's water supply and there is a well known mechanism for how this impairs cognitive development and impulse control and then have a generation of children who grow up with higher rates of criminality.  Thats not saying every single child who drinks the water will become a criminal but its an increased likelihood.  Some individuals are so exceptional that they can overcome and many are unaffected.  

So why don't they just move where the water is clean?

This attitude intentionally ignores the history of segregation in the US.  Most black people have parents or grandparents who were forced to live in certain areas; often the most polluted areas of the city, breathe dirty air, drink dirty water, and go to shitty schools.  You can't just "take responsibility" for something that is enforced throughout society.

Then theres non-violent crimes.  You may say "well then don't commit crimte" but  white kids smoke pot (at a higher rate) or commit petty crimes and its just "mischief" they get off for and go on to lead normal lives.  Poor black kids smoke pot (at a lower rate) and police are sent in to catch them (at a much higher rate) and get them involved in the system.  We have a justice system and prison system that is intentionally retributive and makes very little attempt to rehabilitate.  In fact, blacks consistently get harsher penalties for the same exact crimes.    Our prisons take in people who used drugs, turns them into criminals, then puts them back on the street with even LESS opportunities.  

Also, if you're going to use Obama as an example, you might want to look into his family history and upbringing because theres a certain detail that specifically  allowed his family more opportunity which directly affected him.

I've seen scientific studies indicating darker pigmented mammals have higher levels of testosterone. Higher levels of testosterone decrease intelligence and increase propensity for violence.

Yep.  There it is.  Popojeff is a white supremacist.  He had to preface it with about 3 paragraphs of fluff before backing into it, but it came right out.  Of course, he wrote the post in a way where he can back out of it, because he's a closet white supremacist.  

[PopoJeff]

We were assuming his opinions were based on racist, white supremacist ideas but that post is full of evidence that makes it much more than an assumption now.  Be wary of anyone whose posts use individual examples to dispel systemic racism.   Systemic racism never implied that every single black person's success was prevented.  

Take leaded water as one piece of the racist pie.  You can have lead leech into a population's water supply and there is a well known mechanism for how this impairs cognitive development and impulse control and then have a generation of children who grow up with higher rates of criminality.  Thats not saying every single child who drinks the water will become a criminal but its an increased likelihood.  Some individuals are so exceptional that they can overcome and many are unaffected.  

So why don't they just move where the water is clean?

This attitude intentionally ignores the history of segregation in the US.  Most black people have parents or grandparents who were forced to live in certain areas; often the most polluted areas of the city, breathe dirty air, drink dirty water, and go to shitty schools.  You can't just "take responsibility" for something that is enforced throughout society.

Then theres non-violent crimes.  You may say "well then don't commit crimte" but  white kids smoke pot (at a higher rate) or commit petty crimes and its just "mischief" they get off for and go on to lead normal lives.  Poor black kids smoke pot (at a lower rate) and police are sent in to catch them (at a much higher rate) and get them involved in the system.  We have a justice system and prison system that is intentionally retributive and makes very little attempt to rehabilitate.  In fact, blacks consistently get harsher penalties for the same exact crimes.    Our prisons take in people who used drugs, turns them into criminals, then puts them back on the street with even LESS opportunities.  

Also, if you're going to use Obama as an example, you might want to look into his family history and upbringing because theres a certain detail that specifically  allowed his family more opportunity which directly affected him.

I've seen scientific studies indicating darker pigmented mammals have higher levels of testosterone. Higher levels of testosterone decrease intelligence and increase propensity for violence.

Yep.  There it is.  Popojeff is a white supremacist.  He had to preface it with about 3 paragraphs of fluff before backing into it, but it came right out.  Of course, he wrote the post in a way where he can back out of it, because he's a closet white supremacist.  

And look at you, following page 2 of the Democrat playbook..... call them racist if you don't know how to discuss facts.

You've proven you refuse to look at facts, or consider anything other than the lies that are pushed down your throat. JUST CALL THEM RACIST IF YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT TO DO !

Are you saying Obama wasn't black, or wasn't successful ?

Tell me what's more racist:
 1. Reading written words on an Internet forum a discussing the facts behind them.
2. Assuming ones skin color and white supremacy by the words they wrote?

You've never seen me, have no idea what my skin color is, and your racist mind assumes I'm white.

^^^^^^^^^^^
There it is internet, the most racist thing you'll ever see. From the ones who scream racism at everything they don't like.

My black brethren thank you for speaking up for us, apparently we are too stupid to do it ourselves.
There it is internet,

[coins4commies]

I've agreed with all of the facts you posted and have known about them for a long time.  We only differ on why we think those stats are the way they are.  I attribute the current state of things to history.  

Where did I assume your skin color?  Everyone over a certain age in most of this country was indoctrinated into a white supremacist world view from a young age.  Candace Owens is a notable black white supremacist.  The thing about ignorance is that it doesn't need to make sense.

Having a white supremacist world view doesn't mean that your intentions are bad, it just means that you honestly believe the disparities in the statistics exist because people with a darker skin tones have, as a whole, made choices that are inferior to the choices made by people with white skin.  

The alternative to the white supremacist world view is to acknowledge the disparities exist due to the historical fact that black people have been systematically oppressed by the legal, financial, health, housing, labor, education, and criminal justice systems throughout the course of this nation's history and that the residual effects of that historical oppression still linger, and are still being furthered today.  

Overcoming systemic oppression is not about being "stupid" or "smart" because even if we were living in a capitalist system completely absent of racism, family wealth would be the number one factor that determines your future and the racial wealth gap is ever increasing.

And yes, I do believe children are "too stupid" to overcome the effects of generational poverty and give themselves a level playing field in the first 10 years which are the most important developmental years.  

Obama is black and successful but he wasn't the best example because he had the advantage of being raised by people with white privilege.  With that said, there are definitely extremely gifted individuals who came out of nothing with much less than Obama and I want to reiterate the point that outliers do not dispel trends.   If a failure is an outlier, it is an individual problem but if failure is a statistical trend, it is a societal problem.

[PopoJeff]

I've agreed with all of the facts you posted and have known about them for a long time.  We only differ on why we think those stats are the way they are.  I attribute the current state of things to history.  

Where did I assume your skin color?  Everyone over a certain age in most of this country was indoctrinated into a white supremacist world view from a young age.  Candace Owens is a notable black white supremacist.  The thing about ignorance is that it doesn't need to make sense.

Having a white supremacist world view doesn't mean that your intentions are bad, it just means that you honestly believe the disparities in the statistics exist because people with a darker skin tones have, as a whole, made choices that are inferior to the choices made by people with white skin.  

The alternative to the white supremacist world view is to acknowledge the disparities exist due to the historical fact that black people have been systematically oppressed by the legal, financial, health, housing, labor, education, and criminal justice systems throughout the course of this nation's history and that the residual effects of that historical oppression still linger, and are still being furthered today.  

Overcoming systemic oppression is not about being "stupid" or "smart" because even if we were living in a capitalist system completely absent of racism, family wealth would be the number one factor that determines your future and the racial wealth gap is ever increasing.

And yes, I do believe children are "too stupid" to overcome the effects of generational poverty and give themselves a level playing field in the first 10 years which are the most important developmental years.  

Obama is black and successful but he wasn't the best example because he had the advantage of being raised by people with white privilege.  With that said, there are definitely extremely gifted individuals who came out of nothing with much less than Obama and I want to reiterate the point that outliers do not dispel trends.   If a failure is an outlier, it is an individual problem but if failure is a statistical trend, it is a societal problem.

Absolutely ludicrous to call a black person with a conservative ideology a "white supremacict."

Absolutely irresponsible.

This is where liberals have convinced you to associate conservative/liberal with white/black.
This is where they have failed you.
And you still cant see the hypocrisy

[TECSHARE]

[Racial disparities are a social construct and if you disagree with me you are literally Hitler.]

Which is more racist? Addressing the real causes of these issues so they can be addressed, or obfuscating these truths in order to use minority groups as pets, human shields, and puppets for your cancerous Postmodernist Marxist ideological goals?

[TwitchySeal]

[Racial disparities are a social construct and if you disagree with me you are literally Hitler.]

Which is more racist? Addressing the real causes of these issues so they can be addressed, or obfuscating these truths in order to use minority groups as pets, human shields, and puppets for your cancerous Postmodernist Marxist ideological goals?

Look TECSHARE, racial disparities:

Lets look at some facts:

Blacks or African Americans account for 12.6% of the US population.

https://archive.vn/20200213004951/https://factfinder.census.gov/bkmk/table/1.0/en/ACS/15_5YR/DP05/0100000US


"According to the US Department of Justice, African Americans accounted for 52.5% of all homicide offenders from 1980 to 2008..."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_and_crime_in_the_United_States#Homicide

https://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/htus8008.pdf



93% of African American murder victims are killed by other African Americans.

https://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/htus8008.pdf


"While young black males have accounted for about 1% of the population from 1980 to 2008, they have made up an increasing proportion of homicide victims, going from 9% of all homicide victims in 1980 to 18% in 1994...
By 2008, young black males made up about a quarter of all homicide offenders (27%)"

https://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/htus8008.pdf



"...errors in police deadly force decision making (cases in which police shoot unarmed, non-attacking citizens) occur at a rate of about one in a million."

https://www.forcescience.org/2019/08/researchers-find-no-racial-disparity-in-police-deadly-forceand-thats-just-the-beginning/



"...between 90 and 95 percent of civilians shot were attacking police or others. "

https://www.forcescience.org/2019/08/researchers-find-no-racial-disparity-in-police-deadly-forceand-thats-just-the-beginning/



"Researchers also found that 90 percent of civilians shot by the police in 2015 were “armed.”  Notably, the definition of “armed” did not include civilians attempting to take an officer’s gun."

https://www.forcescience.org/2019/08/researchers-find-no-racial-disparity-in-police-deadly-forceand-thats-just-the-beginning/



"The factor that correlated most strongly to the race of the person fatally shot was the violent crime rate of their racial group."

https://www.forcescience.org/2019/08/researchers-find-no-racial-disparity-in-police-deadly-forceand-thats-just-the-beginning/

What do you think the cause is of these racial disparities?  Everyone claiming systemic racism doesn't exist so far has been unable to provide any sort of opinion on this, other than what's not causing it.

[coins4commies]

[Racial disparities are a social construct and if you disagree with me you are literally Hitler.]

Which is more racist? Addressing the real causes of these issues so they can be addressed, or obfuscating these truths in order to use minority groups as pets, human shields, and puppets for your cancerous Postmodernist Marxist ideological goals?

But here are the goals of BLM from their website which also overlap with many of the causes of the disparities and just so happen to align with my goals.  Are you saying that the issues on this list do not address the causes of the statistical disparities?

Racial Injustice
Police Brutality
Criminal Justice Reform
Black Immigration
Economic Injustice
LGBTQIA+ and Human Rights
Environmental Conditions
Voting Rights & Suppression
Healthcare
Government Corruption
Education
Commonsense Gun Laws

You have to admit getting the bold items done is at least start, right?

[TECSHARE]

[Racial disparities are a social construct and if you disagree with me you are literally Hitler.]

Which is more racist? Addressing the real causes of these issues so they can be addressed, or obfuscating these truths in order to use minority groups as pets, human shields, and puppets for your cancerous Postmodernist Marxist ideological goals?

But here are the goals of BLM from their website which also overlap with many of the causes of the disparities and just so happen to align with my goals.  Are you saying that the issues on this list do not address the causes of the statistical disparities?

Racial Injustice
Police Brutality
Criminal Justice Reform
Black Immigration
Economic Injustice
LGBTQIA+ and Human Rights
Environmental Conditions
Voting Rights & Suppression
Healthcare
Government Corruption
Education
Commonsense Gun Laws

You have to admit getting the bold items done is at least start, right?

I am saying you and everyone like you are mentally ill and completely full of shit. I don't care what you tell me your goals are, I see the results of your actions and they acheive the exact opposite.

[PopoJeff]

[Racial disparities are a social construct and if you disagree with me you are literally Hitler.]

Which is more racist? Addressing the real causes of these issues so they can be addressed, or obfuscating these truths in order to use minority groups as pets, human shields, and puppets for your cancerous Postmodernist Marxist ideological goals?

But here are the goals of BLM from their website which also overlap with many of the causes of the disparities and just so happen to align with my goals.  Are you saying that the issues on this list do not address the causes of the statistical disparities?

Racial Injustice
Police Brutality
Criminal Justice Reform
Black Immigration
Economic Injustice
LGBTQIA+ and Human Rights
Environmental Conditions
Voting Rights & Suppression
Healthcare
Government Corruption
Education
Commonsense Gun Laws

You have to admit getting the bold items done is at least start, right?

I am saying you and everyone like you are mentally ill and completely full of shit. I don't care what you tell me your goals are, I see the results of your actions and they acheive the exact opposite.

AGREE WITH US OR ELSE !!!.    We'll burn down your cities, assault your cops, and tear down your statues unless you agree with us.

The most violent people aren't the blacks... they're the liberals of all colors

[coins4commies]

The statues are coming down regardless of how many people agree with us 

[TECSHARE]

The statues are coming down regardless of how many people agree with us  

Yes, destroying art, erasing history, preventing people from speaking, keeping books from being published, rioting, looting, mob violence, where have we seen all of this before? One day you little kids LAARPING game is going to turn very real, and all you will be doing is crying for your mommy and wishing you could take it all back, but it will be too late for you.

Peaceful men are peaceful until you push them too far, then God help you because the torment that will be unleashed upon you will make you WISH you were dead. Remember me when this comes to pass Comtard. Remember how the person you considered to be a rival was actually the one trying to warn you about your own destruction.

[TwitchySeal]

Here's a painting of Patriots tearing down a statue of King George in 1776.




Tearing down monuments is a part of history.

[Spendulus]

....
Yep.  There it is.  Popojeff is a white supremacist.  He had to preface it with about 3 paragraphs of fluff before backing into it, but it came right out.  Of course, he wrote the post in a way where he can back out of it, because he's a closet white supremacist.  

And BINGO, there it is. First the logical fallacy of the loaded questions - both you and Twitch, and now your attempt to entrap people that responded to your shit.

[TwitchySeal]

....
Yep.  There it is.  Popojeff is a white supremacist.  He had to preface it with about 3 paragraphs of fluff before backing into it, but it came right out.  Of course, he wrote the post in a way where he can back out of it, because he's a closet white supremacist.  

And BINGO, there it is. First the logical fallacy of the loaded questions - both you and Twitch, and now your attempt to entrap people that responded to your shit.

It does seem like popojeff thinks the reason for all the racial disparities is simply because black people are just naturally inferior compared to White people.  I've asked directly several times now: if the reason isn't systemic racism, than what is it?  Nobody seems to be able to come up with a rational explanation and instead resort to personal attacks and trolling.

[TECSHARE]

Here's a painting of Patriots tearing down a statue of King George in 1776.


[img ]https://i.gyazo.com/70de29950b81495535e1b0a4aeb8d30c.png[/img]

Tearing down monuments is a part of history.

Yeah after a war of independence. That wasn't history for them, that was their modern day. War for independence from him, mentally ill unwashed comtards pushing Marxism, same thing right?

It does seem like popojeff thinks the reason for all the racial disparities is simply because black people are just naturally inferior compared to White people.  I've asked directly several times now: if the reason isn't systemic racism, than what is it?  Nobody seems to be able to come up with a rational explanation and instead resort to personal attacks and trolling.

It does seem like you, having been completely unable to present any kind of logical argument to counter facts, are again forced to resort to accusing anyone who denies your social justice religious cult of racism and white supremacy. You are mentally ill, full of shit, or both.

[Spendulus]

....
Yep.  There it is.  Popojeff is a white supremacist.  He had to preface it with about 3 paragraphs of fluff before backing into it, but it came right out.  Of course, he wrote the post in a way where he can back out of it, because he's a closet white supremacist.  

And BINGO, there it is. First the logical fallacy of the loaded questions - both you and Twitch, and now your attempt to entrap people that responded to your shit.

It does seem like popojeff thinks the reason for all the racial disparities is simply because black people are just naturally inferior compared to White people.  I've asked directly several times now: if the reason isn't systemic racism, than what is it?  Nobody seems to be able to come up with a rational explanation and instead resort to personal attacks and trolling.

Let's be honest here. You've crafted loaded questions before, ones that lead answers in directions that you sought. I've pointed this out. This is a real insult to those of us out here who work and live in multi cultural situations, and who are in inter racial marriages. You've politicized issues, and it's all quite obvious. What Popojeff did wrong was taking you seriously. The bigoted, racist, prejudiced person that I'm seeing here is you, but that's a separate issue. Coinsforcommies is just a liar pushing dialectic, but I think you could do better.