Riots after Death of Man in Minneapolis Police Custody

[Gyfts]

No, I would not agree with that. The police chief should know more about policy (an administrative duty) than the trainers themselves. Police chief saying Chauvin was not trained to do what he did is pretty damning to people not already biased a million ways from Sunday.

I disagree with this. The police chief is just a figure head, he isn't in the academy training anyone. It's like talking to a restaurant owner and asking him how to cook a steak. You'd ask the chef, not the owner. And let's not forget he was appointed by Jacob Frey 3 years ago and would probably be canned immediately if he served any use to the defense, but that's just speculation which I openly will admit.

It seems like the defense was more intent on arguing Chauvin was trained to do what he did, which is implicit acknowledgement that his actions caused Floyd's death in the first place. To lose that angle in front of the jurors and then move on to the drugs thing seems disingenuous, but when has that mattered.

It's because he was trained to do this, to some extent. The 3 minutes when Floyd went unresponsive is questionable. And I saw the Lt. testify today which you quoted above. Did you see the cross examination? It was damning.

Here's the transcript - https://www.rev.com/transcript-editor/shared/OPG07O1TTJMVnDDr2nrBbga9WYtk87t-Rw11NfbIYNGFZVbn_hrAUh3ZKGULZAjdalEIYZSGZ6Uvqop1DUVEBacYeXk?

@5:17, the Lt. openly admits the knee is not on the back of the neck, but rather the shoulder blade. And that is completely allowed by MPD policy according to the Lt. to gain control.

And @7:38, the knee is still on the shoulder blades in another photo that was time stamped a couple minutes after the first picture. And yesterday, there was a side by side bystander video/BWC exhibit shown which showed that the bystander video angle looked as if the knee was on the back of the neck. The BWC was played simultaneously which showed his knee on the shoulder blade.

Also confirmed @9:47.

Lt. also confirms that you can use bodyweight to hold someone down until EMS arrive @13:56.

Further down Eric Nelson talks about considering the totality of the circumstances and their decision to hold someone down. So to render Floyd aid, Chauvin was thinking about the crowd, was thinking about how much Floyd fought with police prior (which is something that they're trained on), was thinking he was on drugs and could regain consciousness and begin fighting again, was thinking that he had to remove the cuffs as well. Remember from the body cam video -- Chauvin had told one of the officers to hop in the EMS car and strap Floyd in.

But set that aside. Looking at the knee. There are two questions. Where was it placed, and what was the pressure that Chuavin used. We know the knee was on Floyd's neck or at the very least, was not on Floyd's neck for a 2-3 minutes confirmed by the still photos, and we don't have evidence that the neck was being drilled down by Chauvin and all of his 140 pounds onto 230 lbs, 6'3 George Floyd.

This Lt., in contrast with all the other witnesses, had to concede that the neck restraint used was justified and permitted, but the disagreement is about *how long* the knee was used. And if we're considering the totality of the circumstances and *not* using 20/20 hindsight bias, was it reasonable for Chauvin to believe that shoulder restraint was needed given that the crowd was hostile, the cuffs would need to be removed in order to do CPR, Floyd regained consciousness and could begin fighting again, Floyd was extremely agitated, kicking his legs, just prior to being restrained...I'm inclined to believe "probably". I wasn't in their shoes so it's hard to know for sure. I get the luxury of using hindsight bias, they don't have that luxury. And Nelson makes this exact point too.

And just a quick point on the homicide aspect of this. Homicide is not murder. If Floyd died because of the stress of the situation on his heart, something that would not normally kill but for drugs in his system, that isn't the officer's fault. Homicide here means but for the actions of the officers, Floyd would be alive. Meaning had not police been called to the scene, Floyd's heart rate would not have skyrocketed, therefore he would not have died. That's all homicide means. That doesn't mean drugs were not the main contributing factor of death, or the deciding factor of death.

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[PrimeNumber7]

@5:17, the Lt. openly admits the knee is not on the back of the neck, but rather the shoulder blade. And that is completely allowed by MPD policy according to the Lt. to gain control.

This is a very major point. The video that went viral last summer appeared to show Chauvin's knee on Floyd's neck the entire time. I think it is a scandal that photos of Chauvin's knee on Floyd's shoulder and/or back are just coming out now. The defense should make a point to determine just how long Chauvin's knee was on Floyd's neck.

And just a quick point on the homicide aspect of this. Homicide is not murder. If Floyd died because of the stress of the situation on his heart, something that would not normally kill but for drugs in his system, that isn't the officer's fault. Homicide here means but for the actions of the officers, Floyd would be alive. Meaning had not police been called to the scene, Floyd's heart rate would not have skyrocketed, therefore he would not have died. That's all homicide means. That doesn't mean drugs were not the main contributing factor of death, or the deciding factor of death.

Chauvin is charged with three crimes, 2nd-degree unintentional murder, 3rd-degree murder, and 2nd-degree manslaughter.

The 2nd-degree murder statute says in essence that Chauvin was committing a felony, did something that killed Floyd involving force or violence, and did not intend to kill Floyd. IMO, this is a stretch, even in the most favorable light for the prosecution and the prosecution will have to prove both that Chauvin's actions caused Floyd's death, and that Chauvin committed a second felony while doing so.

The 3rd-degree murder statute says that Chauvin did something dangerous without considering Floyd's life that killed Floyd. I would say there might be probable cause for this charge. The knee on Floyd's neck is reasonably dangerous, but the legality of this would be a point of contention. Also, if Chauvin's actions actually killed Floyd is another point of contention.

The 2nd-degree manslaughter statute says that Chauvin was neglect in creating an unreasonable risk to Floyd's life and took the chance of causing Floyd's death and that Chauvin caused Floyd's death. This is a very similar standard to the 3rd-degree murder charge, and the Jury will likely return the same verdict on both counts.

[Tzupy]

Chauvin Trial Day 8 Wrap-Up: “I Ate Too Many Drugs” Video May Be Game-Changer
https://legalinsurrection.com/2021/04/chauvin-trial-day-8-wrap-up-i-ate-too-many-drugs-video-may-be-game-changer/

[Gyfts]

Chauvin Trial Day 8 Wrap-Up: “I Ate Too Many Drugs” Video May Be Game-Changer
https://legalinsurrection.com/2021/04/chauvin-trial-day-8-wrap-up-i-ate-too-many-drugs-video-may-be-game-changer/

I'm listening to Dr. Tobin's testimony and he describes positional asphyxia.

My follow up questions.

Did fentanyl and methamphetamine along with underlying conditions play any role in Floyd's death? Tobin seemed to suggest no (might've outright said no, can't remember).

Does fentanyl result in less respiration/breaths per minute? If so, would that mean Floyd should've had a higher respiration rate than 17-22 breathes per minute *given* that Floyd had a high heart rate, was fighting with police, and presumably would need more air than a resting individual.

His testimony is very very convincing, but there are a couple issues I have with it. It seems to minimize underlying conditions/drugs which contradicts the autopsy report, and it also speculates that Chauvin used 90 pounds and exerted it onto Floyd's neck. Dr. Tobin openly admits he used a still picture to arrive at this figure. Obviously I don't need to explain why this has all sorts of issues.

But all in all, great day for prosecution.

[PrimeNumber7]

His testimony <> speculates that Chauvin used 90 pounds and exerted it onto Floyd's neck. Dr. Tobin openly admits he used a still picture to arrive at this figure. Obviously I don't need to explain why this has all sorts of issues.

The defense should have objected to this answer. The same is true for any conclusions Dr. Tobin made. I expect Chauvin to mount a defense that includes their own expert witnesses.

[Gyfts]

His testimony <> speculates that Chauvin used 90 pounds and exerted it onto Floyd's neck. Dr. Tobin openly admits he used a still picture to arrive at this figure. Obviously I don't need to explain why this has all sorts of issues.

The defense should have objected to this answer. The same is true for any conclusions Dr. Tobin made. I expect Chauvin to mount a defense that includes their own expert witnesses.

I don't think it's a valid objection though. He created a diagram and it's just his opinion, so he's open to speculate on how much weight Chauvin had on his neck. And by Dr. Tobin's account, he's taking a scientific, mathematical, and methodical approach. So there's nothing to object, he's speaking within his expertise.

But clearly, Eric Nelson pointed out that there was some levels of assumption in Dr. Tobin's analysis in assuming the weights of Chauvin and his gear. I'm surprised Nelson didn't point out his calculation was speculating where Chauvin's center of gravity was and that the center of gravity was maintained for 6 minutes+ killing Floyd, but it's not like Dr. Tobin wouldn't be reluctant to say "Yes, I used shoddy bystander footage to determine Chauvin's center of gravity in order to conclude 90 pounds of pressure".

Of course Chauvin will produce his own laundry list of experts that will contradict what Dr. Tobin says, because there are two sides to every story, but I think Dr. Tobin makes extremely compelling arguments and I feel inclined to take his word for what he says. Do I have "reasonable doubt" as to whether Chauvin asphyxiated Floyd, yes. If the autopsy report conducted by Dr. Baker found evidence of an obstructed airway and evidence of asphyxia, then I would undoubtedly take Dr. Tobin's word as undisputed. But, there is some conflicting evidence.

And did anyone catch the part where Eric Nelson mentioned that the high effect, or the maximum effect (forgot what Nelson called it) of fentanyl is about 5 minutes after consumption? Dr. Tobin agreed with this. We know Floyd ingested fentanyl/meth pills when police approached him in the car...the timing seems to match almost perfectly where Floyd begins to freak out with respect to when he took the fentanyl pills. It's about 5 minutes later.

[Gyfts]

His testimony <> speculates that Chauvin used 90 pounds and exerted it onto Floyd's neck. Dr. Tobin openly admits he used a still picture to arrive at this figure. Obviously I don't need to explain why this has all sorts of issues.

The defense should have objected to this answer. The same is true for any conclusions Dr. Tobin made. I expect Chauvin to mount a defense that includes their own expert witnesses.

What I don't understand is how either of you can believe you actually possess more knowledge about this issue than the experts and attorneys in the courtroom. The normalization of the questioning of experts when people don't like what they have to say will be one of Trump's longest lasting legacies.

Which issue? The objection to relevance or the 90 pounds of pressure?

[Gyfts]

What I don't understand is how either of you can believe you actually possess more knowledge about this issue than the experts and attorneys in the courtroom. The normalization of the questioning of experts when people don't like what they have to say will be one of Trump's longest lasting legacies.

Which issue? The objection to relevance or the 90 pounds of pressure?

This part:

His testimony <> speculates that Chauvin used 90 pounds and exerted it onto Floyd's neck. Dr. Tobin openly admits he used a still picture to arrive at this figure. Obviously I don't need to explain why this has all sorts of issues.

Explain what the issue is. Explain why you have a better guess as to what the pressure exerted was than a licensed intensive care physician who is providing testimony under oath in the most highly publicized trial of the year.

I am using his own words where he says he made certain assumptions about how much Chauvin weighed, how much the gear he had on weighed, and his acknowledgement that the weight of Chauvin shifted constantly. And I already explained what the issue was. He calculated 90 pounds of pressure using a still picture from bystander video. Dr. Tobin didn't go into detail how he was able to precisely calculate 90 pounds because neither the prosecution nor the defense asked about it. And we know from earlier this week, there are portions of the BWC that *clearly* show Chauvin's knee on Floyd's upper back while the bystander video *clearly* shows the knee/shin area on the neck. So the angle is already a bit off when using the BWC.

I never said I had a better guess. Doesn't mean I can't ask questions.

[Gyfts]

Maybe they didn't ask about it because they agreed with his assessment, or else felt it wasn't worth disagreeing with? The defense did bring up the fact that the calculation was theoretical. But they didn't disagree with it like you are.

Eric Nelson didn't bring it up directly. He tried to cast doubt by getting Dr. Tobin to admit that there were some assumptions made about his calculations. Nelson was pretty unprepared today, he admitted that he got all of this information last night.

Did you miss the part when the doctor said anybody would have died had they been subjected to what Chauvin did to Floyd?

If Dr. Tobin believes that 90 pounds of pressure was applied to the neck of George Floyd for 9 minutes straight, then yeah, I'm sure it would kill someone in any ordinary circumstance. I'm not disputing this. I'm disputing the figure 90 pounds because it made certain assumptions that I don't think you can make with complete certainty, and Dr. Tobin has said as much.

[Mr.right85]

Its funny how people forget you once your dead, as its been said, what is dead stays dead and to some persons your existence too but not to every one. I almost forgot about this case that brought up the black lifes matters. It was a very agonising one and I suddenly started being all emotional about it once again of what pain the victim must have felt being held in that disturbing position. Where every effort to break free and catch your breath was seen as an act of insubordination!

Of course, there is always going to be some assumptions to some calculations. It can't be very precise, a little molecule, pound or what ever unit of measurement and conditions is all it takes to make a variation.
Anyway, I pray thee that this case should be considered carefully and let justice be done. BLM!

[Gyfts]

Day 10 - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CgrnUf_XgF0

Dr. Baker testified today, he said what we knew from the autopsy report -

Floyd died from fighting with police, subdual, and neck compression with contributing factors of drug use and underlying heart conditions.

And this is in direct contradiction with Dr. Tobin's testimony who suggested the fentanyl/methamphetamine and underlying conditions did not effect Floyd and his cause of death. Hmmm....

Also worth nothing, the prosecution brought up this research paper that I linked many months ago in the thread here - https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3088378/

[PrimeNumber7]

His testimony <> speculates that Chauvin used 90 pounds and exerted it onto Floyd's neck. Dr. Tobin openly admits he used a still picture to arrive at this figure. Obviously I don't need to explain why this has all sorts of issues.

The defense should have objected to this answer. The same is true for any conclusions Dr. Tobin made. I expect Chauvin to mount a defense that includes their own expert witnesses.

What I don't understand is how either of you can believe you actually possess more knowledge about this issue than the experts and attorneys in the courtroom. The normalization of the questioning of experts when people don't like what they have to say will be one of Trump's longest lasting legacies.

There is no way Dr. Tobin would be able to know how much weight Chauvin put on Floyd's neck with his knee. The figure he gave was a guess.

If one of your feet (or knee) were hurt, you would probably lean on your other foot while standing, so that the hurt foot has very little pressure and the "good" foot has most of your body weight on it. The same principle applies to how much pressure Chauvin was putting on Floyd's body with his knee.

Dr. Baker testified today, he said what we knew from the autopsy report -

Floyd died from fighting with police, subdual, and neck compression with contributing factors of drug use and underlying heart conditions.

I think this is what is going to cause the reasonable doubt:
“Absent suspicious circumstances, if Floyd had been found dead in his bed with the level of fentanyl in his blood that was present for this autopsy, it may be classified a fentanyl fatality,”

Dr Baker's testimony is basically that Floyd died from the actions of another person solely because of what he saw on the video, despite evidence to the contrary.

[Gyfts]

There is no way Dr. Tobin would be able to know how much weight Chauvin put on Floyd's neck with his knee. The figure he gave was a guess.

And your point is what exactly? Why are you attempting to undermine the claims of a medical expert?

I think this is what is going to cause the reasonable doubt:
“Absent suspicious circumstances, if Floyd had been found dead in his bed with the level of fentanyl in his blood that was present for this autopsy, it may be classified a fentanyl fatality,”

It would cause reasonable doubt with you because you're highly biased in favor of the defendant, which is why you're not part of the jury. Nobody in their right mind is going to believe that a drug overdose just happened to coincide with a police officer putting a knee on somebody's neck for 8 minutes. Overdose has been ruled out a million ways from Sunday by people whose opinions actually matter.

You both also missed this tidbit from forensic pathologist Dr. Lindsey Thomas... it's almost like you don't even register the testimony that goes against your pre-conceived notions of what happened:

There's no evidence to suggest he would have died that night, except for the interactions with law enforcement.

Dr. Baker just testified that fentanyl and heart disease were contributing factors in his death. And he also said the knee to the back of the neck did NOT cut off airflow. He said no tissue damage on the exterior of the skin nor interior of the skin.

When someone says drug OD in this case, they aren't saying that he nodded off. They're saying the fatal level of fentanyl contributed to his death, and likely had it not been for his heart condition and fentanyl/methamphetamine concentration, he would have lived. But main point -- zero evidence of asphyxia, choking, and strangulation by Chauvin's knee cutting off air flow. And Dr. Baker himself said the knee was on Floyd's lower neck, shoulder blade area and upper back most of the time.

Dr. Baker said George Floyd's heart couldn't handle the restraint -- https://www.wsj.com/articles/prosecution-in-derek-chauvin-trial-set-to-call-key-witness-11617975531.

This is completely different from being asphyxiated by Chauvin's knee because it doesn't matter what your heart condition is. If your airflow is cut off, you die regardless of your underlying conditions.

[Gyfts]

Horrible day for the defense. Their use of force expert got absolutely pummeled today because the prosecution knows they can use emotions and hindsight to convince jurors that Chauvin "should've" known. Never mind numerous state witnesses openly admitting that restraint until EMS can be held, that restraint can be held on drug users because they can regain consciousness and become more violent.

Self defense lawyer Andrew Branca says it best in his blog post - https://legalinsurrection.com/2021/04/chauvin-trial-day-12-wrap-up-defense-use-of-force-expert-witness-falls-short/

Basically, the direct was extremely weak, and the cross examination was extremely rough. But, if we are taking what Mr. Brodd has to say, someone that has been in FBI tactics training, certified by the FBI, testified in 10 previous court cases, defensive training instructor, and a police officer with a total of **30 years experience**, he says the force was justified.

Also worth nothing, the prosecution's medical experts have all contradicted each other.

Dr. Thomas - Contradicts Dr. Baker, claims positional asphyxia was the cause of death combined with contributing factors of fentanyl use/heart disease.

Dr. Tobin - Underlying factors have nothing to do with Floyd's death, not fentanyl, not meth, not heart conditions, he was suffocated due to the knee on the back of the neck. Tobin claims Floyd died on scene. Contradicts Dr. Baker because he testified Floyd died later. Also contradicts him and Dr. Thomas because underlying factors did play a role, according to them.

ER doc (forgot his name) - Claims Floyd's heart conditions did not play a role in his death. Contradicts both Dr. Thomas and Dr. Baker.


But for some reason, we all need to ignore this. And yes, I think the jury might as well be incompetent. Courtroom reporters are saying that some of the jurors are falling asleep during the trial. You are a moron and you are incompetent to fall asleep during the biggest trial in decades.

[suchmoon]

But for some reason, we all need to ignore this. And yes, I think the jury might as well be incompetent. Courtroom reporters are saying that some of the jurors are falling asleep during the trial. You are a moron and you are incompetent to fall asleep during the biggest trial in decades.

Oh come on now. I enjoy reading your recaps even if I disagree with some on your opinions therein, but do you really to start blaming the jurors in advance just in case they end up rendering a verdict that you may not like. They've been vetted by defense and prosecution, and they can be replaced if the judge deems necessary. Until and unless that happens they're competent.

Not to mention that it would favor the defense if they sleep through the emotional appeals that you mentioned so perhaps they should just all sleep to avoid any emotional influence... why put jurors in the courtroom at all - just have them read the transcripts and decide based on that.

[Gyfts]

But for some reason, we all need to ignore this. And yes, I think the jury might as well be incompetent. Courtroom reporters are saying that some of the jurors are falling asleep during the trial. You are a moron and you are incompetent to fall asleep during the biggest trial in decades.

Oh come on now. I enjoy reading your recaps even if I disagree with some on your opinions therein, but do you really to start blaming the jurors in advance just in case they end up rendering a verdict that you may not like. They've been vetted by defense and prosecution, and they can be replaced if the judge deems necessary. Until and unless that happens they're competent.

Not to mention that it would favor the defense if they sleep through the emotional appeals that you mentioned so perhaps they should just all sleep to avoid any emotional influence... why put jurors in the courtroom at all - just have them read the transcripts and decide based on that.

Derek Chauvin is entitled to a fair trial, it's not fair to have jurors be sleeping while testimony is being presented. As a juror, requesting that you stay away is the LEAST anyone could ask for. Even if the person sleeps during the prosecution's testimony, it's still not fair for the state side. I just don't understand how a juror wouldn't show the slightest amount of respect by remaining alert during this thing.

[TwitchySeal]

Gyfts, obviously I disagree with pretty much all of your takes, but the write ups are good.  Haven't been following too closely, I hope you keep posting them.

[Quickseller]

But for some reason, we all need to ignore this. And yes, I think the jury might as well be incompetent. Courtroom reporters are saying that some of the jurors are falling asleep during the trial. You are a moron and you are incompetent to fall asleep during the biggest trial in decades.

Oh come on now. I enjoy reading your recaps even if I disagree with some on your opinions therein, but do you really to start blaming the jurors in advance just in case they end up rendering a verdict that you may not like. They've been vetted by defense and prosecution, and they can be replaced if the judge deems necessary. Until and unless that happens they're competent.

Not to mention that it would favor the defense if they sleep through the emotional appeals that you mentioned so perhaps they should just all sleep to avoid any emotional influence... why put jurors in the courtroom at all - just have them read the transcripts and decide based on that.

Derek Chauvin is entitled to a fair trial, it's not fair to have jurors be sleeping while testimony is being presented. As a juror, requesting that you stay away is the LEAST anyone could ask for. Even if the person sleeps during the prosecution's testimony, it's still not fair for the state side. I just don't understand how a juror wouldn't show the slightest amount of respect by remaining alert during this thing.

If a juror is sleeping, the burden is on the defense to bring this up in court as soon as it is noticed. If the junior is sleeping while testimony favorable to the defense is being given, it may be grounds for a mistrial, but it is up to the defense to bring this up. If they were sleeping today, it may be beneficial for the defense as you described the day as bad for the defense.

Sleeping during trial by a juror is apparently fairly common and this may be an attempt to get off the jury/get out of jury duty. The juror may be having second thoughts about their ability to be impartial after hearing some of the testimony and realizing just how weak a case the prosecution has.

[Gyfts]

Don't worry so much: if the sleep-spiracy matters, I'm sure the defense attorneys will act on it.

You guys continue to crack me up.

Hypothetical, what if a sleeping jury member caused Chauvin to get acquitted or a mistrial? Would you not be upset that a killer just got loose because someone was passed out being lazy? This goes both ways. Even if it's common, with how much is on the line, it's disrespectful. And let's take it further than that, if someone fell asleep during the trial, does a reasonable person expect this person to have been paying attention to everything presented? This case is extremely complicated, it's not cut and dry.

[TwitchySeal]

Can't imagine that judge not noticing or not doing anything about a sleeping juror.

Im guessing someone closed their eyes for a minute, which is normal,  and a reporter decided to make a story out of it.

Also possible someone was sleeping and the judge yelled at the juror and/or lawyers brought it up during a side bar to be handled when the press wasn't there.