Riots after Death of Man in Minneapolis Police Custody

[TwitchySeal]

Of all the defenses I've heard for Chauvin, I think these two are among the most insincere:

If Floyd was saying he couldn't breathe prior to being put on the ground, a reasonable person might not give similar statements much weight when he is put on the ground

We all know that "I can't breath" is what someone says when they're having trouble breathing or short of breath.  Trying to discredit the victim as a liar because he said he couldn't breath but didn't turn blue and pass out and somehow justifying sitting on top of him while he's screaming it and until he's dead is just dumb.

You are misrepresenting my argument. I am saying that Floyd was saying he couldn't breathe before Chauvin was doing anything that would possibly interfere with Floyd's breathing. This means one of two things, 1) some factor other than Chauvin was causing Floyd to be unable to breathe, or 2) Chauvin had a reasonable reason to believe Floyd was not actually unable to breathe when making these cries.

Yeah, he was having a panic attack.  This doesn't make it ok to stay on top of him for 9 minutes while he dies. In fact, it's a reason not to stay on top of him for 9 minutes.

Floyd having 3x the lethal amount of drugs in his system is relevant....how would one expect someone to survive after having that level of fentanyl in his system?

And we all know that the '3x the lethal amount' line does not take into account Flloyds size or tolerance and meanwhile you have multiple experts testifying that he did not die from an overdose.

The medical examiner said that if it had not been for the video, he would have believed Floyd died from an overdose. I am not even sure why medical examiners are looking at anything other than the body when making these kinds of determinations.

The medical examiner said "George Floyd did not die from drug overdose".

I believe the comment you're referring to was the hypothetical "If we found Flloyds body at home, alone and in the same state, it would be ruled an overdose."

But what happened was a cop sat on top of him for 10 minutes until he was dead and it was all caught on video from many angles.

[PrimeNumber7]

Floyd having 3x the lethal amount of drugs in his system is relevant....how would one expect someone to survive after having that level of fentanyl in his system?

And we all know that the '3x the lethal amount' line does not take into account Flloyds size or tolerance and meanwhile you have multiple experts testifying that he did not die from an overdose.

The medical examiner said that if it had not been for the video, he would have believed Floyd died from an overdose. I am not even sure why medical examiners are looking at anything other than the body when making these kinds of determinations.

The medical examiner said "George Floyd did not die from drug overdose".

I believe the comment you're referring to was the hypothetical "If we found Flloyds body at home, alone and in the same state, it would be ruled an overdose."

But what happened was a cop sat on top of him for 10 minutes until he was dead and it was all caught on video from many angles.

The physical evidence available to the medical examiner suggests that Floyd died from an overdose. The conclusion that Floyd died from having a knee on the back of his neck did not involve any information gained from examining Floyd's body -- it was entirely based on the video evidence. This is a concern because, well it is the medical examiner's job to examine the body.

The question is not solely was Chauvin justified in putting his knee on Floyd's neck or shoulder for 9 minutes? The question is, did Chauvin putting his knee on Floyd's neck cause Floyd to die, or significantly contribute to Floyd's death? I think Chauvin was probably not justified in restraining Floyd to the extent that he was restrained for the amount of time he was restrained. However, I do believe that based on the toxicity report, and the fact that Floyd was having difficulty breathing prior to being put on the ground, Floyd likely died from something related to having excessive amounts of fentanyl in his system.

I think the argument for a manslaughter charge might be more reasonable, but I don't think it is clear-cut that Chauvin is guilty of manslaughter. There is an argument that Chauvin should have administered aid to Floyd, and said argument would again be reasonable.

[Gyfts]

...

Did you see the testimony from Shwanda Hill, the passenger in Floyd's car? She said Floyd was nodding off in the car and that she couldn't wake him up. Certainly sounds like what fentanyl would do. And keep in mind, methamphetamine is also a stimulant, and he was on both. So if he was in the car passing out, does it not sound like the fentanyl had some effect?

[TwitchySeal]

The physical evidence available to the medical examiner suggests that Floyd died from an overdose.

Flloyd died "from police force, not drugs or underlying health conditions"
"George Floyd did not die from drug overdose"
-The Medical Examiner


"George Floyd Did Not Die from Drug Overdose"
-Cardiologist (Expert Witness)

[Gyfts]

Flloyd died "from police force, not drugs or underlying health conditions"
-The Medical Examiner

This is wrong. He said Floyd died after his "heart gave out* following subdual by law enforcement with contributing factors of heart conditions, fentanyl intoxication, and recent methamphetamine use. It's just not true to say he just died from police force and not drugs.

I still don't understand this. We're all suppose to listen to the experts on the cause of death, they each contradict one another.

Dr. Baker (forensic pathologist) - Floyd's heart gave out following law enforcement subdual with contributing factors of heart conditions/drug use. Openly stated no anatomical evidence to support a conclusion of positional asphyxia.

Dr. Thomas (forensic pathologist) - Floyd died of positional asphyxia with contributing factors of heart conditions/drug use.

Dr. Tobin (pulmonologist)  - Floyd *did not die* of underlying factors. They did not play a role in his death. Floyd died of positional asphyxia.

Dr. Rich (cardiologist) - George Floyd had a strong healthy heart and his heart condition did not play a role in his death.


I watched each one of these doctor's testimony and did so closely. They all were contradicting each other. So which expert do I listen to? I pick one?

Manslaughter was the only charge here worth debating. Murder 2 and Murder 3 are so unbelievably wild I don't understand what trial this jury was watching.

[Cnut237]

The question is how did he die, and what exact role Chauvin had in Floyd's death.

Knee on the neck for 9 minutes might have had something to do with it. The exact role Chauvin had is the role of murderer. Hope that clears up any confusion. There's also a video.

[franky1]

the verdict has been passed. he is guilty...
debate over.

stop defending a cop that used excessive force.
the verdict has passed..

[Gyfts]

The question is how did he die, and what exact role Chauvin had in Floyd's death.

Knee on the neck for 9 minutes might have had something to do with it. The exact role Chauvin had is the role of murderer. Hope that clears up any confusion. There's also a video.

Dr. Baker also testified that it appeared to him the knee was on the upper back area between the shoulder blades for most of the time. So which is it? Was it on the neck, or was it on the back?

Secondly, you're telling me Floyd died because of the knee to the back of the neck and that fentanyl, a respiration rate depressant, methamphetamine a vasoconstrictor, coronary artery blockage of 75% and 90%, an enlarged heart, and the fact that chewed up fentanyl/methamphetamine pills were found in the back of the squad car Floyd was placed in had no effect?

[suchmoon]

Secondly, you're telling me Floyd died because of the knee to the back of the neck and that fentanyl, a respiration rate depressant, methamphetamine a vasoconstrictor, coronary artery blockage of 75% and 90%, an enlarged heart, and the fact that chewed up fentanyl/methamphetamine pills were found in the back of the squad car Floyd was placed in had no effect?

Would we be having the same argument if Chauvin was kneeling on a 90-year old grandma? Look, she had 20 pre-existing conditions and would have died anyway within the next 5 minutes or 5 years.

I think it's disingenuous to try to have it both ways, i.e. that the person had severe or even fatal health issues, and that it was ok for the officer to do what he did. If Floyd's condition was so dire they should have taken him to a hospital immediately instead of trying to arrest him for using a fake $20.

[Cnut237]

you're telling me Floyd died because of

No, the verdict is telling you that.

I'm not an expert. It seems to me as an observer that the cause of death is obvious. And the outcome of the trial gives the same result as my uninformed opinion.

[Gyfts]

you're telling me Floyd died because of

No, the verdict is telling you that.

I'm not an expert. It seems to me as an observer that the cause of death is obvious. And the outcome of the trial gives the same result as my uninformed opinion.

We are all qualified to be on that jury. This was a jury of ordinary people. Sure, we're not Chauvin's peers, sure we are not experts in positional asphyxia or toxicology experts, but that doesn't matter, neither was the jury. This was televised so everyone had the opportunity to make their own judgement about the cause of death and the use of force. So based on what I saw, I disagree with the verdict.

[franky1]

Dr. Baker also testified that it appeared to him the knee was on the upper back area between the shoulder blades for most of the time. So which is it? Was it on the neck, or was it on the back?

maybe if you as a sofa jurer watched the video you could see for yourself. thats why not only the 'expert' words but the video itself are used

also he was handcuffed. so if you want to suggest he reached in his pocket upwrapped some packaging and put a pill in his mouth.. seems you dont understand handcuff logic much
also in full view of several police officers.. seems you dont understand visual logic

so.. lets see if you can watch the video. and actually see the events. and not make up 'maybe' stories
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NjKjaCvXdf4

as you can see in the first 5 minutes he was conscious. talking. and alert enough to even spell his name and give his date of birth.
yes he seemed upset that he was being arrested for what he deemed as a victimless crime. but then who would be happy.
none of this displays any sign of someone that has overdosed.

also to your suggestion that he took something out and left it in the back of the police car.. well the cops frisked him and emptied his pockets before he got into the car

so. lets get things straight. look at the video linked above and actually tell me the specific times where your assertions occured

oh and one more thing. starting at 11:30. you can see chauvins LEFT knee hard on his neck. and right knee hanging in the air in his back area
i know you only want to talk about the right knee but be aware of the left knee

[Gyfts]

Dr. Baker also testified that it appeared to him the knee was on the upper back area between the shoulder blades for most of the time. So which is it? Was it on the neck, or was it on the back?

maybe if you as a sofa jurer watched the video you could see for yourself. thats why not only the 'expert' words but the video itself are used

also he was handcuffed. so if you want to suggest he reached in his pocket upwrapped some packaging and put a pill in his mouth.. seems you dont understand handcuff logic much
also in full view of several police officers.. seems you dont understand visual logic

so.. lets see if you can watch the video. and actually see the events. and not make up 'maybe' stories
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NjKjaCvXdf4

as you can see in the first 5 minutes he was conscious. talking. and alert enough to even spell his name and give his date of birth.
yes he seemed upset that he was being arrested for what he deemed as a victimless crime. but then who would be happy.
none of this displays any sign of someone that has overdosed.

also to your suggestion that he took something out and left it in the back of the police car.. well the cops frisked him and emptied his pockets before he got into the car

so. lets get things straight. look at the video linked above and actually tell me the specific times where your assertions occured

oh and one more thing. starting at 11:30. you can see chauvins LEFT knee hard on his neck. and right knee hanging in the air in his back area
i know you only want to talk about the right knee but be aware of the left knee

No, I am suggesting that Floyd took pills and swallowed them to hide them once the police approached his car.

How else can you possibly explain partially chewed up pills being found in the police car where Floyd struggled with police WITH Floyd's DNA on them? He did the same exact thing during his 2019 arrest which was shown in court, not the full bodycam video but partially. Police yelled at Floyd saying "spit it out". He has a history of doing this.

Am I to believe that had nothing to do with his death?

[TwitchySeal]

Flloyd died "from police force, not drugs or underlying health conditions"
-The Medical Examiner

This is wrong. He said Floyd died after his "heart gave out* following subdual by law enforcement with contributing factors of heart conditions, fentanyl intoxication, and recent methamphetamine use. It's just not true to say he just died from police force and not drugs.

I still don't understand this. We're all suppose to listen to the experts on the cause of death, they each contradict one another.

Dr. Baker (forensic pathologist) - Floyd's heart gave out following law enforcement subdual with contributing factors of heart conditions/drug use. Openly stated no anatomical evidence to support a conclusion of positional asphyxia.

Dr. Thomas (forensic pathologist) - Floyd died of positional asphyxia with contributing factors of heart conditions/drug use.

Dr. Tobin (pulmonologist)  - Floyd *did not die* of underlying factors. They did not play a role in his death. Floyd died of positional asphyxia.

Dr. Rich (cardiologist) - George Floyd had a strong healthy heart and his heart condition did not play a role in his death.


I watched each one of these doctor's testimony and did so closely. They all were contradicting each other. So which expert do I listen to? I pick one?

Manslaughter was the only charge here worth debating. Murder 2 and Murder 3 are so unbelievably wild I don't understand what trial this jury was watching.

I don't think it's that confusing at all.  He didn't overdose.  Chauvin killed him.

The whole "he did drugs" argument really is just grasping at straws.  It doesn't matter.

[franky1]

No, I am suggesting that Floyd took pills and swallowed them to hide them once the police approached his car.

How else can you possibly explain partially chewed up pills being found in the police car where Floyd struggled with police WITH Floyd's DNA on them? He did the same exact thing during his 2019 arrest which was shown in court, not the full bodycam video but partially. Police yelled at Floyd saying "spit it out". He has a history of doing this.

Am I to believe that had nothing to do with his death?

oh so its not longer a story:

and the fact that chewed up fentanyl/methamphetamine pills were found in the back of the squad car Floyd was placed in had no effect?

so no longer about pill packed in police car.. but now pills before the arrest...
..
hmm so how come he was still alert and able to talk and spell his name and give date of birth and answer questions..

do you still not know how overdoses work

its funny how the video has been public for months.. the jury has already passed its verdict.. but you as a sofa jurer have a different story to tell that does not follow ANY ACTUAL EVIDENCE

by the way the medication packaging found in floyds sisters car was not fentanyl. and the amount of that other medication in his blood was not overdose amount. it was not even therapeutic/recreational amount

so heres some actual facts.. not stories
fentanyl levels in floyd were similar to those found in DUI stats. but not enough as postmortem stats
0=clean    9-12=DUI(alive)         18+=overdose(dead)
                  ^ floyd had 11
also those that overdose and die. dont have norfentanyl in their system as they die before fentanyl has chance to break down
floyd had norfentanyl in his system meaning he took fentanyl along time before the police approach. and had enough time for the fentanyl to break down(recover from peak of high)
so again no overdose risk

[Gyfts]

hmm so how come he was still alert and able to talk and spell his name and give date of birth and answer questions..

do you still not know how overdoses work

its funny how the video has been public for months.. the jury has already passed its verdict.. but you as a sofa jurer have a different story to tell that does not follow ANY ACTUAL EVIDENCE

by the way the medication packaging found in floyds sisters car was not fentanyl. and the amount of that other medication in his blood was not overdose amount. it was not even therapeutic/recreational amount

This goes both ways. Floyd gave his name but it appeared he was a bit incoherent and erratic. But how come he was nodding off in the car? The passenger in the car testified this, that he kept falling asleep and he couldn't be woken up. How come he was alert while he was in the store, then suddenly just passes out and is unable to be awakened?

And in regards to the fentanyl levels, I'll believe Dr. Baker when he says 11 ng/mL of fentanyl is an unsafe level and put fentanyl intoxication as the contributing factor. He testified that he's certified fentanyl levels of 3 ng/mL as OD's, so not a harmless amount of fentanyl.

[TwitchySeal]

hmm so how come he was still alert and able to talk and spell his name and give date of birth and answer questions..

do you still not know how overdoses work

its funny how the video has been public for months.. the jury has already passed its verdict.. but you as a sofa jurer have a different story to tell that does not follow ANY ACTUAL EVIDENCE

by the way the medication packaging found in floyds sisters car was not fentanyl. and the amount of that other medication in his blood was not overdose amount. it was not even therapeutic/recreational amount

This goes both ways. Floyd gave his name but it appeared he was a bit incoherent and erratic. But how come he was nodding off in the car? The passenger in the car testified this, that he kept falling asleep and he couldn't be woken up. How come he was alert while he was in the store, then suddenly just passes out and is unable to be awakened?

And in regards to the fentanyl levels, I'll believe Dr. Baker when he says 11 ng/mL of fentanyl is an unsafe level and put fentanyl intoxication as the contributing factor. He testified that he's certified fentanyl levels of 3 ng/mL as OD's, so not a harmless amount of fentanyl.

Why does it matter if he was high or overdosing when we have a video of the cop kneeling on his neck for 9 minutes until he was dead?

Being high or overdosing does not make someone unmurderable.

[Gyfts]

hmm so how come he was still alert and able to talk and spell his name and give date of birth and answer questions..

do you still not know how overdoses work

its funny how the video has been public for months.. the jury has already passed its verdict.. but you as a sofa jurer have a different story to tell that does not follow ANY ACTUAL EVIDENCE

by the way the medication packaging found in floyds sisters car was not fentanyl. and the amount of that other medication in his blood was not overdose amount. it was not even therapeutic/recreational amount

This goes both ways. Floyd gave his name but it appeared he was a bit incoherent and erratic. But how come he was nodding off in the car? The passenger in the car testified this, that he kept falling asleep and he couldn't be woken up. How come he was alert while he was in the store, then suddenly just passes out and is unable to be awakened?

And in regards to the fentanyl levels, I'll believe Dr. Baker when he says 11 ng/mL of fentanyl is an unsafe level and put fentanyl intoxication as the contributing factor. He testified that he's certified fentanyl levels of 3 ng/mL as OD's, so not a harmless amount of fentanyl.

Why does it matter if he was high or overdosing when we have a video of the cop kneeling on his neck for 9 minutes until he was dead?

Being high or overdosing does not make someone unmurderable.

Because, as I have been saying for months now, you cannot determine the pressure Chauvin was putting onto Floyd using a damn video. There is just no way to tell. There is research to suggest that 225 pounds of pressure is needed to effect respiration in the prone restraint position. There is research to suggest that the prone restraint position does not inhibit respiration function. There is research to suggest that in thousands of usages of the prone restraint technique in Canada and other cities and not a single death was ever recorded. Coincidentally, Canada does not have the drug dependency like Americans do.

Your argument would hold up IF Dr. Baker ruled positional asphyxia as the cause of death and he didn't. So that means that fentanyl and methamphetamine clearly did play a role in Floyd's death and the whole point of contention is whether Chauvin's knee had "substantial causal factor" (this is the phrase used in the jury instructions for 2nd degree manslaughter and I think the murder charges as well) in Floyd's death

I've asked about a dozen different ways, how can anyone be sure of the pressure Chauvin exerted onto Floyd throughout the entirety of the restraint when there wasn't any bruising, any skin damage, no contusions nothing. I am asking because maybe I'm just wrong and missing something here.

[Cnut237]

you cannot determine the pressure Chauvin was putting onto Floyd using a damn video. There is just no way to tell.

maybe I'm just wrong and missing something here.

Irrelevant. If you are kneeling on someone's neck, and they're telling you they can't breathe, then maybe you should just get off their neck? Rather than thinking "well, I'm only kneeling kind of lightly, it's probably not fatal pressure..."

[TwitchySeal]

Your argument would hold up IF Dr. Baker ruled positional asphyxia as the cause of death and he didn't. So that means that fentanyl and methamphetamine clearly did play a role in Floyd's death and the whole point of contention is whether Chauvin's knee had "substantial causal factor" (this is the phrase used in the jury instructions for 2nd degree manslaughter and I think the murder charges as well) in Floyd's death

I never said fentanyl or meth didn't play a roll in the death.

I'm saying it doesn't matter if they did.  It wouldn't make Chauvin any less guilty of staying on top of the guy for 9 minutes while he begged for his life and then died.