Clarification of a rule, Can we get a managers board

[yahoo62278]

I have been here awhile and believe I have a pretty good understanding of the rules of the forum, but I want to get clarification of a specific rule before I call out particular people.

29. Sending unsolicited PMs, including but not limited to advertising and flood, is not allowed. This is rule #29 found UNOFFICIAL RULES, Wouldn't mind hearing what others interpret this rule to mean.

My understanding is, you are not to be pmming companies offering your managing services. You are not to be pedaling your digital or physical good via pm. You are not to solicit anyone period unless they specifically ask for offers in a thread or via pm from you. Is my interpretation correct?

Some users have made some great comments and I think maybe it's time to clean up the services board a little and give managers their own child board. This would give companies and easier way to find managers as well as give managers a place to post their services without cluttering up the services section.


https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5231849.0

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5225469.0

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5251125.0

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5244401.0

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5264528.0

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5241800.0

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5262684.0

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5201844.0

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5257375.0

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5124215.0

These are just from the 1st 2 pages of the services section. Doesn't inclue myself, Hhampuz, mprep, and others so far.

[1715026790]

1715026790

[DarkStar_]

I have been here awhile and believe I have a pretty good understanding of the rules of the forum, but I want to get clarification of a specific rule before I call out particular people.

29. Sending unsolicited PMs, including but not limited to advertising and flood, is not allowed. This is rule #29 found UNOFFICIAL RULES, Wouldn't mind hearing what others interpret this rule to mean.

My understanding is, you are not to be pmming companies offering your managing services. You are not to be pedaling your digital or physical good via pm. You are not to solicit anyone period unless they specifically ask for offers in a thread or via pm from you. Is my interpretation correct?

Sounds correct to me. Some managers have gotten banned in the past for sending unsolicited PMs advertising their management services.

[The Sceptical Chymist]

Just my opinion, but I think that rule is written very poorly and IMO probably needs to be revised.  I think the spirit behind it was to prevent spammy-type PMs, but come on--how many PMs do you receive that you actually asked for? 

I get appeals to remove feedback, requests for my opinion, and all sorts of other stuff in my PM box that I didn't specifically ask for, but I wouldn't report any of that stuff to the moderators.  The only PMs I do report are the spam offers to take part in projects and those kinds of things, and there's a world of difference between those and the other ones I mentioned above.

My understanding is, you are not to be pmming companies offering your managing services. You are not to be pedaling your digital or physical good via pm. You are not to solicit anyone period unless they specifically ask for offers in a thread or via pm from you. Is my interpretation correct?

I think your interpretation of those specific types of PMs is correct, although I'm not sure if I'd find an offer from a campaign manager to someone who might be looking for that service to be spam--though it's still against the rules as they're written.

[yahoo62278]

I think your interpretation of those specific types of PMs is correct, although I'm not sure if I'd find an offer from a campaign manager to someone who might be looking for that service to be spam--though it's still against the rules as they're written.

If a company posts they are looking for a manager, then I would say it is 100% acceptable to send offers. I'm looking at the gambling boards and wondering how many of these new companies that pop up are getting pms from managers? I know for a fact a few managers are breaking this rule.

In my early days, I have probably been guilty of breaking this rule myself. I was pretty green at 1 point.

[btcltcdigger]

Just my opinion, but I think that rule is written very poorly and IMO probably needs to be revised.  I think the spirit behind it was to prevent spammy-type PMs, but come on--how many PMs do you receive that you actually asked for?  

I would agree with this.
Personally, when I would received dozens of offers for bumping services, or any shady services from newbie accounts with 1 activity, i would consider that spammy and breaking this rule.
However, if i was to receive a well written, and well organized offer for lets say signature design, or bounty service, i wouldn't consider it an offense.

But then again, if you receive 20 of these "good" offers in 1 day, maybe you'd be annoyed and report it anyway. It's very subjective IMHO

In my early days, I have probably been guilty of breaking this rule myself. I was pretty green at 1 point.

I think we all have...

[yahoo62278]

Just my opinion, but I think that rule is written very poorly and IMO probably needs to be revised.  I think the spirit behind it was to prevent spammy-type PMs, but come on--how many PMs do you receive that you actually asked for?  

I would agree with this.
Personally, when I would received dozens of offers for bumping services, or any shady services from newbie accounts with 1 activity, i would consider that spammy and breaking this rule.
However, if i was to receive a well written, and well organized offer for lets say signature design, or bounty service, i wouldn't consider it an offense.

But then again, if you receive 20 of these "good" offers in 1 day, maybe you'd be annoyed and report it anyway. It's very subjective IMHO

In my early days, I have probably been guilty of breaking this rule myself. I was pretty green at 1 point.

I think we all have...

I 100% agree with the bolded part, which is why I haven't named names. I personally think when you make a thread with your services, it gets lost in the board. Along with there being 500000000000000000000 people wanting to manage these days, it's a tough market. Look at the services section these days, I see a minimum of 10 users offering services. When 1 bumps, the rest do so as well and before you know it, you're on page 2 or 3 in a couple hours.

I'd like to see a section specifically for managers. 1 to make it easier for managers to be seen, and 2 for it to be easier for companies to find us.

There are a couple threads in service discussion and other places pointing out some managers, but not all are listed and the info is subject to the OPs opinion.

Users should do their best to follow the forums rules(even the subjective ones), having a managers board would help push these people to make their own thread for advertising(even though some of these breaking the rule have 1).

[PrimeNumber7]

No, we should not give campaign managers a place to receive prominent advertising space via the creation of a child board just for signature campaign managers. 

The campaign management business is reliant on reputation, and if you maintain a strong reputation, you will naturally receive clients. If you have less than pristine ethics, such as a willingness to advertise for companies you know to be scammy, you will receive few if any clients. In any case, you are free to advertise your services via paid signatures, forum banner ads, or otherwise.

A general rule is that there should be multiple pages worth of threads last posted in a single day for there to be a need for a separate board, and campaign management threads are nowhere close to this threshold.

 

[yahoo62278]

No, we should not give campaign managers a place to receive prominent advertising space via the creation of a child board just for signature campaign managers. 

The campaign management business is reliant on reputation, and if you maintain a strong reputation, you will naturally receive clients. If you have less than pristine ethics, such as a willingness to advertise for companies you know to be scammy, you will receive few if any clients. In any case, you are free to advertise your services via paid signatures, forum banner ads, or otherwise.

A general rule is that there should be multiple pages worth of threads last posted in a single day for there to be a need for a separate board, and campaign management threads are nowhere close to this threshold.

 

Nothing wrong with having an opinion against it, and a pretty good argument against it as well. Appreciate your input on the subject.

[The Cryptovator]

No, we should not give campaign managers a place to receive prominent advertising space via the creation of a child board just for signature campaign managers. 

Aren't managers advertising their service on the Service section? So I don't think it will be problems if create a child board where only posting 'campaign management service thread' will be allowed. And sticky thread will be appropriate there regarding rules especially those are related to the campaign.

I am not a good manager but I believe what is ongoing lately by spamming or sending unsolicited PM's would effect on campaign field. For example competition about reducing participants rewards and so on.

[hilariousandco]

If we're not going to have a sub for Sig Campaigns I don't think we need one for Managers. Everyone would likely ask for one then. Escrows and such. I think the lists people have compiled about the various managers and escrows are fine enough. 

My understanding is, you are not to be pmming companies offering your managing services. You are not to be pedaling your digital or physical good via pm. You are not to solicit anyone period unless they specifically ask for offers in a thread or via pm from you. Is my interpretation correct?

You're free to do it, but if that person reports it then that's where you might get into trouble. Some users have PMd me in the past about threads or services or giveaways I might be interested in and I don't see anything there's wrong with that half of the time and I wouldn't report them for that, but of course I don't want to be PMd about any old crap. It's the same for most people probably. They might be interested in your service but if they're not and they report you you might end up with a ban so I'd take that into consideration.

I think your interpretation of those specific types of PMs is correct, although I'm not sure if I'd find an offer from a campaign manager to someone who might be looking for that service to be spam--though it's still against the rules as they're written.

If a company posts they are looking for a manager, then I would say it is 100% acceptable to send offers.

You very likely wouldn't be banned for that or if you was you'd have a case for it to be overturned. When PMing people like that though quote the thread where they said they were looking for managers to them. If I saw that I certainly wouldn't issue a ban if they reported it.

[Lafu]

My understanding is, you are not to be pmming companies offering your managing services.

I realy dont see that as an rule breaking if you pm somebody once and asking friendly for it .

Then it would be also a rule breaking when i or somebody send me a pm and ask if he can translate a Thread !
For sure in the most times there are no money or something involved when they doing that.

A one time friendly asking is in my opinion not a unsolicited PM.

But if it would be making the things easier for the Managers and others they should get this Board in my opinion.

[PrimeNumber7]

No, we should not give campaign managers a place to receive prominent advertising space via the creation of a child board just for signature campaign managers. 

Aren't managers advertising their service on the Service section? <>

Yes, they are advertising their service in the Services section. There is only a handful of campaign mangers, and not enough to warrant their own section, as I discussed above.

I am not a good manager but I believe what is ongoing lately by spamming or sending unsolicited PM's would effect on campaign field. For example competition about reducing participants rewards and so on.

Campaign mangers have been sending unsolicated PM's to potential clients for years, and have been receiving temp bans when this is reported for years. If you want your services advertised more widely, you should purchase some form of advertising.

[philipma1957]

My understanding is, you are not to be pmming companies offering your managing services.

I realy dont see that as an rule breaking if you pm somebody once and asking friendly for it .

Then it would be also a rule breaking when i or somebody send me a pm and ask if he can translate a Thread !
For sure in the most times there are no money or something involved when they doing that.

A one time friendly asking is in my opinion not a unsolicited PM.

But if it would be making the things easier for the Managers and others they should get this Board in my opinion.

I have received over Just over 14,000 pms since July of 2012

I would say 3,000 should not have been sent.

[tranthidung]

Just my opinion, but I think that rule is written very poorly and IMO probably needs to be revised.  I think the spirit behind it was to prevent spammy-type PMs, but come on--how many PMs do you receive that you actually asked for?  

There are two factors for admins or moderators to consider whether one user (managers as well as non-manager users) breaks that rule:

• How many solicited PMs were sent out?
• The severity level of solicited PMs practice. It means how long does it last?

Clarifications:

• The more PMs were sent out, the higher probability to get temp-ban.
• The second factor is important as well. If 2 managers send out 10 solicited PMs but during different period: manager A finished their works in 1 month, manager B finished their works in 1 day. I think the first one (A) is fine but the second one (B) will get a trouble with temp-ban. I don't say what manager A does is a good practice to promote his management service but the severity of solicited PMs makes sense.

Final restriction will be applied after admins/ global moderators consider both factors and the period of temp-ban will be different from case to case.

There is a case with bad severity factor that caused him a 30-days temp-ban (BitcoinFX)

You sent over 100 PMs with the same format: clear unsolicited bulk PMs. 4 people reported it, making it unwanted & unsolicited bulk PMs = spam. Most others would've been banned much longer.

No, we should not give campaign managers a place to receive prominent advertising space via the creation of a child board just for signature campaign managers.  

No. I disagree with it.

The forum is not built for signatures as well as signature industry (campaigns, managements, etc.). Wearing a signature on the forum is a privilege, not a right for anyone of us. The same goes for signature / bounty campaign managements. Signature and the whole related industry can be disabled in a blink of eyes if theymos seriously takes action.

[LTU_btc]

First, of all, I agree that rule about unsolicited PM's makes things complicated and I think that some changes there should be made. I think most of us, not just managers had broke this rule
But I don't think that separate board for managers is needed. Campaign management is just one kind of services offered here. Then maybe separate boards for others services would be needed. Because there is many escrow providers, translators, designers too. I'd rather keep everything in single board without dividing it into small sub-boards.

[btcltcdigger]

Two things about this request:

1) Would it include only BTC campaigns or also altcoins?

2) Who would get the right to open topics there? Everyone?

[pugman]

No, we should not give campaign managers a place to receive prominent advertising space via the creation of a child board just for signature campaign managers. 

The campaign management business is reliant on reputation, and if you maintain a strong reputation, you will naturally receive clients. If you have less than pristine ethics, such as a willingness to advertise for companies you know to be scammy, you will receive few if any clients. In any case, you are free to advertise your services via paid signatures, forum banner ads, or otherwise.

A general rule is that there should be multiple pages worth of threads last posted in a single day for there to be a need for a separate board, and campaign management threads are nowhere close to this threshold.

In an ideal world what youd saying would work, but there are people who'd hoe themselves and get any project on board, and manage a campaign for it. Basic human stuff, yada yada yada.

I don't think managers should be banned for sending a PM for prospective business opportunities(referring to Hhampuz's ban), and I agree with The Pharmacist that the rules should be revised. And besides, the rules aren't rock solid here, and its literally unofficial so, changes can be good.

Also, as for the board, I don't mind it, gives a better outlook on managers, especially considering campaigns on this forums are very rare as compared to before, ergo, a lot of good discussion has also gone down because of it(not all, but some). There are quite a few users who only interact when they get paid and if not they dont bother. And that's the tea ☕.

[RapTarX]

I guess it will too much to give a subboard for managers only provided that the number of managers are probably capped at 100 maximum. Along with other services, managers can run their service perfectly IMO.

1) Would it include only BTC campaigns or also altcoins?

2) Who would get the right to open topics there? Everyone?

1. For Campaign Managers.
2. Campaign Managers + People looking for managers I guess.

[Upgrade00]

A managers' board is very specific and could be mistaken by some as a recommendation from the forum, sort of like 'hey, here are the list of campaign managers we offer'.

Also, seeking out potential clients for your service isn't bad in it's own imo, if done professionally. Rather than sending the same text to multiple recipients repeatedly, a well constructed offer tailored to that user/business, without also spamming their inbox could pass.

[btcltcdigger]

Also, do you guys think that getting this board would stop people from posting as well in services?
I kinda think that most would do it, just to "increase the visibility"

[Little Mouse]

For example competition about reducing participants rewards and so on.

Does this work that way? I can not deny that I am one of the managers who contacted with couple of gambling projects if they were going to advertise in the forum. But always I tried to increase their budget as much as possible because without a good rate, you will not get good poster and without good poster, your campaign will never be a success.
If someone sent mass PM, that will be spam in my opinion. I used to send 1/2 PM every one month maximum back in the day but I do not PM anymore since they are never that good. However, I do not think it's rule breaking.

[amishmanish]

Are there even that many companies in the services board to whom a manager can send such a PM?? Most of the casinos already have a signature campaign or have had one in the past. Just about anybody should be able to send a simple message asking the potential client whether they are interested in some form of advertisement. In case they show interest by replying, the manager can then show them portfolio, results and such.

Campaign management space has become very competitive lately with a lot of new people offering such services. Ditto for people looking to stack sats in signature campaigns. There is less fish in the sea and more fishing boats with every passing day. If a separate board means a more professional approach and standardization of these services, then its a welcome move. But that would need a far more collaborative approach between all stakeholders (including forum admin, staff and companies that choose to advertise) than just a separate space for CMs.

No, we should not give campaign managers a place to receive prominent advertising space via the creation of a child board just for signature campaign managers. 

No. I disagree with it.

The forum is not built for signatures as well as signature industry (campaigns, managements, etc.). Wearing a signature on the forum is a privilege, not a right for anyone of us. The same goes for signature / bounty campaign managements. Signature and the whole related industry can be disabled in a blink of eyes if theymos seriously takes action.

Your disagreement to his disagreement results in agreement to the original suggestion. Your explanation says otherwise..Which one is it?

[TheUltraElite]

The gist of this thread can be linked to the question - Which one came first, the chick or the egg? 

Of course the forum came first. Then came the signature campaigns mainly Primedice at one time and then came the concept of signature campaign managers.

While I detest the fact that PMing the project owner to get the manager to start a campaign for them, I would also point out that majority of campaigns are no longer the 1-2+ year long age old apart from CM, the casino signatures. The point is that if the project owners feel the need for publicity they will approach a manager first and not the reverse way.

Secondly the manager approaching the owner also makes the owner to a different stance: The owner thinks, lets try this marketing and see if it goes well for a few weeks. But this does not have immediate effects. The fact that this forum has given generous amount of traffic to many casinos is because the signatures ran here for several months to years. Just a couple of weeks will have very little spurt of traffic giving a false impression to the owners.

Again the need is important too. If the owners need marketing they are likely to run the campaign for long too. The side who is approaching first becomes important here both for the owners and the managers.

My point is that PMing the owner and dont get me wrong, "pitching" yourself to the manager has a bad long term effect for the campaign because of what I stated above it would not last long.

However I can understand the point of view of the manager and their enthusiasm in this regard but we must all remind ourselves that the forum came first and not the campaigns. It is a privilege that the administration allows these projects and it is not a right.

[akhjob]

As others have mentioned that if a child board is created for Campaign Managers others services like designers, escrows, translators would also ask for their respective child boards. I am not going into the unofficial rule regarding unsolicited PMs. I think the main concern here is the lack of visibility of the service thread of reputed campaign managers which somehow forces them to PM potential customers.

We already have these in the service discussion Board.
List of Campaign Managers - https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5228596.0
List of Escrows - https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=276897.0
List of Translators - https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5214430.0
List of Designers - https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1610428.0

So, instead of creating a new child board which clearly is not needed, I would suggest that some reputed member to create a thread with all the four lists and then ask the mods to pin it on top of the Service Board. I think that would solve the problem.