Germany Continues Shutting All Unlicensed Bitcoin ATMs

[shoreno]

Another wrong use of bitcoin adoption that can affect the whole bitcoin community.

This can worsen the bitcoin adoption and make it slower for us to achieve it. They have the opportunity to make more bitcoin ATMs and make it operate properly but the case is not like that. Germany just did their thing here, all of the crypto-related activities should be done legally so that there will be no problem with us using bitcoin.

The owner should comply with the papers, verify it and make it into a licensed bitcoin ATM so that they can have more customers.

Guidelines, rules, and regulations must be observed first and not all countries are given an opportunity to build a Bitcoin ATM, so as much as possible they should follow the laws to avoid struggles like this.

no they are only offenders and they dont care bout the adoption because if they want they will not rush things .

 they will first make sure that everything is legal before the operation of btc atm's   .  its easy to create an atm like that because crypto isnt also complicated  but its hard for it to be approved and not all people have the ability to have it , thats why there are people that installs the atm illegally or on places that are hidden  .

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[bonjouros]

I cannot blame if Germany is shutting all the unlincensed bitcoin ATMs because I know that they have a good reasons behind it. And for the bitcoin ATM owners, it will be good also
if they will make their ATMs legal by filing a license to it so the users will not worry in using their ATMs.

What I see from their actions is that Germany will likely to chase those tax evaders especially if they know that those illegal ATMs are earning a huge amount of profit and for them also
to fight those illegal operators to continue their doings.

[Shasha80]

Shutting all unlicensed Bitcoin ATMs needs to be done because it violates applicable regulations and is also risky for customers who use it.
I support the German government to take this action, if the German government does not act decisively it could harm customers. Even though
the German government is one of those who accept the presence of Bitcoin, so Bitcoin ATM owners should follow the applicable regulations.
If there are many violations, i'm afraid that the German government is will banning Bitcoin.

[Distinctin]

Not really surprising as it was the right decision that the authorities must have to do and besides, they just follow what is the rules. This is already happening in other countries, the authorities are now in focus to regulate this thing as they find out that there is a huge growth of crypto machines that have been in question cause of illegalities involve. I supported this one in order to avoid doubts from the community and eliminate those negative reviews toward Bitcoin as a scam.

[stompix]

Another wrong use of bitcoin adoption that can affect the whole bitcoin community.
This can worsen the bitcoin adoption and make it slower for us to achieve it.

Common, this ain't 2012 anymore, a couple of illegal ATMs being confiscated in a country won't change a thing, if we exclude the dedicated crypto press I bet you that even 1 in a thousand people outside Germany hasn't heard about this.

Do you think that any currency is hit by such "bad" news? Or if we talk gold, for example, have news about slavery in gold mines and abuse and environmental disaster stopped the need and the usage of it? Or that it makes people care?
Nope, adoption won't be slowed by such a trivial thing nowadays, there are tens of cases with illegal ATMs being shut down, here is Spain,  USA,
did it change your perception? If no why would it change it for other people?

On the second of May 2020, the number was 68 (https://web.archive.org/web/20200502151657/https://coinatmradar.com/country/80/bitcoin-atm-germany/). Quite a drop, and a small number in either case.
@Lucius reported 50 yesterday on his post on this same thread, so I wonder if they’ve cleansed the list over the past 24 hours (unless it was a typo 15->50).

Indeed they were 50 less than a week ago, there is an archived page of the 12th, but not on the country itself but on the list of countries
https://web.archive.org/web/20200812064310/https://coinatmradar.com/countries/
Unfortunately no archived page of the city by city to see which one has been taken out.

[Findingnemo]

Without having proper permission fro the government it is not possible to operate ATMs because it is related to banking so if they want to make profits in this way then better to go with all the improvements. ANd the service provider should oppose only if the ATMs which are regulated are getting closed.

[malevolent]

If we know that cryptocurrencies in Germany are very well regulated, and that the laws are very favorable for those who buy and sell them, then the data which shows only 50 crypto ATMs that currently exist in the country is a bit unusual. Which would then mean that there really is a very large number of those illegal ATMs that operate outside the law - which again surprises me that it can happen in a country that has (or should at least have) very good measures to prevent such abuses.

It is not at all clear to me that someone can set up an ATM in a mall or at a train station without obtaining all the necessary permits. It is obvious that there are some loopholes in the law that individuals take advantage of, and given the high fees that crypto ATM devices have (5-10 +%), it is not difficult to imagine how much profit there is.

Don't remember about Germany specifically, but in other countries shitcoins.club generally has lower fees (even negative fees in some rare instances). I have a hard time imagining them not paying the appropriate taxes, too.

And two weeks after your post Germany only has 15 Bitcoin ATMs left (they used to have more of them earlier this year e.g.) If a country of 83 million has less than a quarter the number of BTC ATMs that can be found in the nearby Czech Republic (population of less than 11 million), then that's generally a strong suggestion that the laws that are in place in Germany are disproportionately oppressive.

On the contrary, it makes bitcoin really favourable for average joe if government like Germany are going to regulated it. And I don't think this is enough to say that it attracts negative public perception.

Average Joe (or Joseph) now has only 15 ATMs to choose from, in Berlin for example, there are only two left and they charge 10-15% to buy BTC.

It's business, any country will shut down anything that is deem illegal, and bitcoin ATM's are no exceptions. The thing is how it is easy to setup a bitcoin ATM, I think ATM manufacture should have a duty to at least check those people who are going to acquire their hardware, check the locations and if they comply to the regulatory body before issues the hardware itself.

It wasn't illegal until Germany adopted new regulations at the beginning of the year which proved overly restrictive for most operators. BTW, dogmatic servility of the kind you're proposing has never done anyone any good.

why can't they get a license first so they can operate without having problems with the authorities.

If the requirements to obtain the license are so stringent that the number of ATMs dips from 69 to 15 in a matter of months, and the ones that are left have very high fees, then the problem clearly lies in the regulations being overly burdensome.

This is good as it will protect the consumers from shady ATMs.

Most (if not all) ATMs that were seized weren't 'shady' at all. Now the consumer has significantly less options, and the few that remain are more expensive to transact with and come with more restrictions.

[milani]

The Federal Financial Regulation Authority (FFSA) or BaFin, the body responsible for overseeing cryptocurrency service providers, was in the midst of cracking down on both illegal and unregulated Bitcoin ATMs.

According to a Bitcoinnews.com article, the closure accompanies a regulation that took effect last January ordering crypto-service operators to receive BaFin authorization.

German BaFin regulators have found a range of illegal Bitcoin ATMs running in Germany, and at least one firm, the Estonia-licensed Virtual Planet OÜ operated by the Shitcoin Club, has issued an order to halt the activity of Bitcoin ATMs in the region, according to the article.

Another central Bitcoin ATM provider, Coin Fellows, was told to stop all activities in Germany by the end of July.

Bitcoin traders in Germany opposed the closure, arguing that the BaFin criteria are too stringent for small enterprises and are best appropriate to banks and major financial entities.

The U.S. Department of Justice has already started cracking down on illegal bitcoin ATMs and recently confiscated 17 computers in California, according to the article.

Of course it's may be a real true story) and of course in case there was violations in the registration and installation of this ATM equipment, of course this activity should be stopped according to the jurisdiction of country. But I think that there is something more hidden behind this criminal story. It looks a bit strange that so many ATMs were opened and has not been the point of concern to the government and governmental institutions earlier, while it was the process of installing of this equipment. Because it is not just a box, that you can just put somewhere in the supermarket or on the street. More over in Germany or in California.

[Lorence.xD]

Without having proper permission fro the government it is not possible to operate ATMs because it is related to banking so if they want to make profits in this way then better to go with all the improvements. ANd the service provider should oppose only if the ATMs which are regulated are getting closed.

The crackdown on illegal and unregulated bitcoin ATM is understandable because as a government, you do not want your taxes/lifeline of your country getting cut short. In my opinion, the crackdown was not necessary, maybe make amends and make this illegal and unregulated ATMs into legal and regulated one. I do not know about the whole story but I think they are targeting small time businesses which is pretty scummy in my vocabulary, compromise could have make things better but my opinion is not worth a salt for their government plans.

[GeorgeJohn]

If they have find out any bitcoin manipulating machines that will cause harm to people they should banned it immediately without waiting for proper investigation, and besides all these cryptoccurrency machines have to have a central code that will indicate if the machines is coat and produce from the right source,because looking at all these bitcoin machines it might diverts bitcoin transaction to another direction.
I will like let all bitcoin machines irrespective the country situated to have operating license and authentication code for verification.

[lepbagong]

Without having proper permission fro the government it is not possible to operate ATMs because it is related to banking so if they want to make profits in this way then better to go with all the improvements. ANd the service provider should oppose only if the ATMs which are regulated are getting closed.

The crackdown on illegal and unregulated bitcoin ATM is understandable because as a government, you do not want your taxes/lifeline of your country getting cut short. In my opinion, the crackdown was not necessary, maybe make amends and make this illegal and unregulated ATMs into legal and regulated one. I do not know about the whole story but I think they are targeting small time businesses which is pretty scummy in my vocabulary, compromise could have make things better but my opinion is not worth a salt for their government plans.

After all, the government is very interested in all regulations atm bitcoin that can be regulated in such a way because the prospect exists, of course, they know that not a little circulation occurs and if the government can take taxes from each transaction it is an advantage in itself. I do not fully follow what caused all this to happen only the government can provide an answer.

[aioc]

It's good for the legal owners of ATM that the authorities are doing this, in fact this is protecting their business because if there are no illegal ATM in the country, People will use the legal ones and legit owners and the government are the one who will benefit for this actions, other countries should follow the lead of Germany in dismantling illegal Crypto ATM.

[carlisle1]

The Federal Financial Regulation Authority (FFSA) or BaFin, the body responsible for overseeing cryptocurrency service providers, was in the midst of cracking down on both illegal and unregulated Bitcoin ATMs.

According to a Bitcoinnews.com article, the closure accompanies a regulation that took effect last January ordering crypto-service operators to receive BaFin authorization.

German BaFin regulators have found a range of illegal Bitcoin ATMs running in Germany, and at least one firm, the Estonia-licensed Virtual Planet OÜ operated by the Shitcoin Club, has issued an order to halt the activity of Bitcoin ATMs in the region, according to the article.

Another central Bitcoin ATM provider, Coin Fellows, was told to stop all activities in Germany by the end of July.

Bitcoin traders in Germany opposed the closure, arguing that the BaFin criteria are too stringent for small enterprises and are best appropriate to banks and major financial entities.

The U.S. Department of Justice has already started cracking down on illegal bitcoin ATMs and recently confiscated 17 computers in California, according to the article.

everything that Illegal must be cracked down and that is the Universal law,Because even if this helps Crypto people still they are not paying what requires by the law.
And they are the only one who benefits from this
(the ATM owners) which is unfair for every businesses that has been asked to Pay taxes while this operator is seemingly taking advantage of the situation
and these Bitcoiner are supporting the illegal use of ATM?

It's good for the legal owners of ATM that the authorities are doing this,

That is exactly my Point mate,How about the legal operator whos paying right taxes while there are these illegal one who's just taking profit out of their business
without spending evena penny.

[Sebas.tian]

Probably these ATM machines are owned by a rich daddy in the government somewhere around the country . This can only be a business from the rich just to boycott the tax process in the country, also, not to make known his or her identity. The government should by matter of urgency shutdown the entire illegal ATM machines around the country and confiscate them.

[AniviaBtc]

This is a key to prevent having a bad reputation towards bitcoin.

These unlicensed bitcoin ATMs can be the source of bad information towards the public and it will probably have a huge impact in the economy. German government should be proud of how their authorities act towards this kind of issue regarding cryptocurrency. I just don't understand why people are settling with this kind of illegal investments where they will have nothing but losses in the end.

[audaciousbeing]

It's important that everyone should lend voice to this. When you want to do or engage in a business, do it within the purview of the law so you don't run into problems. The government is not saying you shouldn't but ensure you register while you may not agree as to the reasons but for your own benefit and that would he patronising your business, it's important to do as failure to do that could put you, your client, your community or even the country in a risk should you manage to transact with enemies of the state who cared less about collateral damages.

[panganib999]

The country and the government of Germany is just doing the right thing that must be done on tracking down and shutting down those illegal and unregulated Bitcoin ATMs for this is done for the sake and welfare of its people not to get victimized by scam because certain regulations are being implemented in the country to keep a safe track of those licensed to operate Bitcoin ATM because if you are really sincere on providing services why would you not get your Bitcoin ATM be registered for legalization so that the government will know the authenticity of your operation.

This must be known by the operators that even out of Bitcoin premises, any businesses and operations that are intended to serve people must be legalized to prove its regularity based on the standardized protocols that is on the law basically to protect the welfare of the people. Shutting down those illegal Bitcoin ATMs and doing operation against the regulation is just right to be closed until they come up providing needed legalization to resume their service operations.

[nullius]

BTW, dogmatic servility of the kind you're proposing has never done anyone any good.

It’s depressing that the overwhelming majority of posts in this thread are praising the crackdown in lockstep.  Worse is the chorus of virtue-signalling about the bogey of people so evil that (gasp!) they potentially may not pay taxes, if they don’t have a nicely licenced “KYC/AML” financial mass-surveillance régime watching them at all times.  What unspeakable sin!

PSA:  You need the permission and supervision of your masters to use “your” money—OR ELSE!

Like Carlton says, it isn't exactly fresh news. AMLD5 had always been looming and I said in some other thread they had been doing the same in Netherlands. Should have been earlier if not for Covid, which gave them an unexpected grace period.

It could be a slight miswording too, not a ban, but a hold on the machines till they implement kyc/aml procedures. That's how it is in NL.

Keywords rendered in bold.

Il est bien malaisé (puisqu’il faut enfin m’expliquer) d’ôter à des insensés des chaînes qu’ils révèrent.  tell sheep to be “free”, LOL

I give up.  If people on the Bitcoin Forum, of all places, demand that governments close those awful loopholes which may let people use their own money without permission, there is not much hope.

that mush be rich person by now unregulated things mean no taxes right

some of them, fortunately just a  minority,are installing those just as money laundering scheme [...]

The same companies that scream about laws and regulations to boost their business are the same that are trying to ditch them to avoid paying taxes.

And this is going to be a huge problem. People will then be using those ATMs to launder money and evade taxes. [...] Death and taxes, both are inevitable.

[N.b. the absurd brainwashing cliché.]

I mean if they aren't licensed, they don't have documents or permit to operate such thing, why would the authorities let them run and evade taxes?

chase those tax evaders

The crackdown on illegal and unregulated bitcoin ATM is understandable because as a government, you do not want your taxes/lifeline of your country getting cut short.

[!!!]

After all, the government is very interested in all regulations atm bitcoin that can be regulated in such a way because the prospect exists, of course, they know that not a little circulation occurs and if the government can take taxes from each transaction it is an advantage in itself.

That is exactly my Point mate,How about the legal operator whos paying right taxes while there are these illegal one who's just taking profit out of their business
without spending evena penny.

Probably these ATM machines are owned by a rich daddy in the government somewhere around the country . This can only be a business from the rich just to boycott the tax process in the country, also, not to make known his or her identity. The government should by matter of urgency shutdown the entire illegal ATM machines around the country and confiscate them.

* nullius checks the address... yes, this is bitcointalk.org.

May I most modestly propose the following additional talking points for the majority of tax-paying animals in this thread:

• We need a licencing requirement for all cash transactions of any kind, with “KYC/AML” rules that require all participants in a cash transaction to report the transaction and the identities of their counterparties.  This will help to protect consumers from shady cash deals.  After all, who uses cash but criminals?
• Governments must seize of all real, tangible money with intrinsic value.  Of course, all goodthinkful citizens must not want evil tax evaders and other sundry Horsemen to hide their money in unlicenced, unregulated, untraceable gold coins.
• Bitcoin needs taint tracing and coin blacklisting, as first persuasively advocated by the visionary Mike Hearn.  And we must ban the Lightning Network, which, as “Dr.” Craig Faketoshi Blight so helpfully pointed out, removes from the blockchain the information that governments need to trace financial transactions.
• Bitcoin ATMs must require a scan of an ID card, a fingerprint, and a DNA sample.  This must be enforced by the enforcement of ATM licencing.  All objections will be stopped by screaming the magic words, “tax evasion” and “money laundering”.  What, do you want for tax-evading money launderers and other Official Bogeymen to be able to swap between BTC and local fiat anonymously!?
• Utopia:  The cashless society!  With all financial transactions of any kind under proper supervision, wicked wights will find it impossible to commit tax evasion and other unapproved uses of money.  Anybody who dislikes this can feel free to starve, for want of any unsupervised, unregulated, unlicenced means to buy food.  What, do you want for tax-evading terrorist financiers, child dealers, and drug pornographers to be able to buy food anonymously!?  Indeed, what kind of political dissident ungoodthinkful unperson would even want to buy food without showing ID plus proper documentation of source of funds and payment of taxes?

Here’s to a future of financial surveillance so total and inescapable that nobody will even dare to think about unapproved use of money!


P.S., at risk of in certainty of wasting even more of my life by arguing sound reason to such graceless witlings as quoted in the above litany, here is a protip:  In terms of taxes, both rich people and professional criminals will not be significantly affected by this.  Taxes are primarily paid by the poor, and most of all, by the upwardly mobile middle-class.  Rich people have lawyers and accountants to minimize and avoid taxes “legally”, while professional criminals have black-market infrastructure and underground connections to avoid taxes “illegally”.  It is only people with neither fancy lawyers nor black-market access who cannot escape being crushed by a system that promises everybody free ponies through the deadly cycle of creating inflationary debt-based money, then taxing the beasts of burden who are forced to use it.

Money printer go brrr.  Taxes are the “lifeline of your country” (quoted above).

Thus is real wealth drained from the overwhelming majority of people into the pockets of the richest 0.0001%, as stupid poor proles cheer the abject impoverishment of anybody who has anything more than basic animal subsistence.  This must be terribly amusing to the 0.0001%.  After all, Das Kapital is the Holy Writ of plutocrats.

Naturally, I expect that what I just said was a waste of words, and will have no impact whatsoever.

[nullius]

It seems to me that a new crypto era will soon come and all crypto activities will begin to be licensed.

The day before that happens is the time to dump all your “crypto”.

Fortunately, I doubt that such a tyranny will be so easy to impose.  There still exist smart people dedicated to permissionless (= unlicenced) innovation.


Seriously, WTF is with the attitude on this thread?  I had thought that all the people who wanted “permissioned” nonsense were in XRP, various ERC-20 shitcoins with permissioning in their contracts, etc.

For “permissioned” uses, the POW blockchain is the dumbest technology ever invented:  Slow, inefficient, not scalable.  A non-Byzantine distributed consensus based on some Paxos variant, or Raft, with hash-chained transaction records digitally signed by a central authority (or federation of trusted authorities) would be incontestably more efficient, and provide an unimpeachable audit log.  Or, just use an ACID database on a big bank’s mainframe.  Use Paypal.

Why are the people who want licencing and regulation even interested in Bitcoin?  SELL.  Go away.  Bitcoin has nothing to offer you (and you have nothing to offer Bitcoin).


Edit:

Utopia:  The cashless society!  With all financial transactions of any kind under proper supervision, wicked wights will find it impossible to commit tax evasion and other unapproved uses of money.  Anybody who dislikes this can feel free to starve, for want of any unsupervised, unregulated, unlicenced means to buy food.  What, do you want for tax-evading terrorist financiers, child dealers, and drug pornographers to be able to buy food anonymously!?  Indeed, what kind of political dissident ungoodthinkful unperson would even want to buy food without showing ID plus proper documentation of source of funds and payment of taxes?

Untraceable money is the status quo ante with respect to modern technology:  No government in all of history has ever before had the ability to track and trace all financial transactions!

Imagine if the Soviet Union had had that ability.  Now, imagine that being global.  Welcome to the future.

I am informed that in China nowadays, even street vendors selling snacks accept only electronic payments.  Of course, all of these systems are licenced and permissioned; and all parties to all transactions are clearly identified.  Know Your Customer.

Good luck thinking unapproved thoughts, when with the press of a button, the government can shut off your ability to buy a trifling snack—and instantly pinpoint your location if you try.

Aristotle was right when he observed that some people are natural born slaves, and can never be anything but.  Unfortunately, that seems to be most people; and those praising licenced-KYC-AML-everything on this thread are too stupid to realize that somehow, some way, for thousands of years after the invention of money, governments survived and societies functioned when exchanges of money were made via bearer instruments that were anonymous and untraceable by default.

The push to make all financial transactions transparent and traceable is based on the same false premise as used by e.g. American FBI whines about “going dark”.  Technology has given the State capabilities of mass-surveillance and total control that never before existed!  When other technologies restore some modicum of the individual privacy and freedom that existed in every kingdom in history, the agents of the State turn around and complain that they are losing their ability to suppress divers bogeys.  Their narrative is backwards and upside-down:  Privacy-enhancing technologies (including untraceable electronic money) bring us closer to what was always the status quo until just a few decades ago.

[taufik0911]

license is very important because the government needs an official profile of the company that issued the ATM to minimize fraud from irresponsible parties
in my country too, bitcoin ATMs are shut down for the same reason