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Author Topic: [ANN][CHA] Chancecoin, SuperNET core coin for betting in a decentralized casino  (Read 145447 times)
magician
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March 23, 2014, 09:12:53 PM
 #1

Description

Chancecoin (CHA) is a protocol, coin, and client used to bet on dice rolls and other games in a decentralized casino. Owners of the coin may gamble, with randomness provided by published NY Lottery Quick Draw numbers. Owners of the coin are automatically invested in the house bankroll. The protocol is built on top of the Bitcoin blockchain. Coins were created by burning Bitcoins during a proof of burn period.


Burn information

Maximum coins burned: 1,000,000
Burn period: Bitcoin blocks 291860 to 298340
Coins burned in first block: 1,500 CHA per 1 BTC
Coins burned in last block: 1,000 CHA per 1 BTC (coins per block scaled linearly in between these blocks)
BTC burn address: THE BURN PERIOD IS OVER
Maximum coins burned per address: unlimited

Casino information

House edge: 1.0%
Maximum win: 1.0% of bankroll

Software

There are two ways to use Chancecoin
  • Chancecoin desktop software includes decentralized casino, decentralized exchange, and wallet (available for OS X, Windows, Linux).
  • The Web casino is a single HTML file that you can download to your desktop or run from GitHub.

How do I buy CHA?

Download the Chancecoin software and place an order using the decentralized exchange. Or buy CHA on the official centralized exchange, Poloniex.

How do I bankroll the house?

By owning CHA, you are automatically bankrolling the house. On average, you can expect to earn the house edge of 1.0% per bet.

Donations

Donations to 1CHANCeWHSRAfvfi4rwo8v6NEY64RfZYqB are welcome.

Developers

Magician and Venetian

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Kyune
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March 23, 2014, 09:26:26 PM
 #2


How do I buy CHA?

During the burn period, all you need to do is send BTC to 1ChancecoinXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXZELUFD. You can do this using Bitcoin wallet software, or using the standard Chancecoin wallet or command line interface.


(my emphasis added above)

For the moment, let's set aside any question of whether this is a gimmick or a scam.  You seem to be modeling your proof-of-burn after Counterparty.  However, if I recall correctly, Counterparty had some very specific formatting requirements for their burns to be successfully picked up and recognized by the Counterparty reference client and "converted" to XCP.  You couldn't just send bitcoins to the burn address from any client -- initially you needed to do it using the Counterparty software, and then later some very specific (but tricky) methods were also rolled out, such as a blockchain.info method.

So...at a technical level, how exactly will someone be able to obtain CHA by simply sending BTC to your burn address by simply "using Bitcoin wallet software"?  Is that really all that is required?  Or is the protocol actually more rigid (as it was with Counterparty), and do individuals casually sending BTC to your burn address risk losing their hard-earned BTC if they fail to meet that protocol's format requirements?  


BTC:  1K4VpdQXQhgmTmq68rbWhybvoRcyNHKyVP
magician
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March 23, 2014, 09:39:21 PM
 #3


How do I buy CHA?

During the burn period, all you need to do is send BTC to 1ChancecoinXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXZELUFD. You can do this using Bitcoin wallet software, or using the standard Chancecoin wallet or command line interface.


(my emphasis added above)

For the moment, let's set aside any question of whether this is a gimmick or a scam.  You seem to be modeling your proof-of-burn after Counterparty.  However, if I recall correctly, Counterparty had some very specific formatting requirements for their burns to be successfully picked up and recognized by the Counterparty reference client and "converted" to XCP.  You couldn't just send bitcoins to the burn address from any client -- initially you needed to do it using the Counterparty software, and then later some very specific (but tricky) methods were also rolled out, such as a blockchain.info method.

So...at a technical level, how exactly will someone be able to obtain CHA by simply sending BTC to your burn address by simply "using Bitcoin wallet software"?  Is that really all that is required?  Or is the protocol actually more rigid (as it was with Counterparty), and do individuals casually sending BTC to your burn address risk losing their hard-earned BTC if they fail to meet that protocol's format requirements?  



Updated:

As of now, you can burn BTC into CHA using any Bitcoin wallet software by sending BTC to the burn address. The input must come from a single Bitcoin address. There can be multiple output addresses in any order, as long as one of them is the burn address (1ChancecoinXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXZELUFD).

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PhantomPhreak
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March 23, 2014, 10:19:47 PM
 #4

Interesting project.

Can't the hash of a block  be chosen by the miner that builds it, at least enough to determine the winner of any given bet?
l4p7
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March 23, 2014, 10:34:19 PM
 #5

How do you handle the Op_Return (non) issue?
I calculated the burn period to be roughly 45 days? That correct?
TheMightyX
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March 23, 2014, 11:09:23 PM
 #6


How do I buy CHA?

During the burn period, all you need to do is send BTC to 1ChancecoinXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXZELUFD. You can do this using Bitcoin wallet software, or using the standard Chancecoin wallet or command line interface.


(my emphasis added above)

For the moment, let's set aside any question of whether this is a gimmick or a scam.  You seem to be modeling your proof-of-burn after Counterparty.  However, if I recall correctly, Counterparty had some very specific formatting requirements for their burns to be successfully picked up and recognized by the Counterparty reference client and "converted" to XCP.  You couldn't just send bitcoins to the burn address from any client -- initially you needed to do it using the Counterparty software, and then later some very specific (but tricky) methods were also rolled out, such as a blockchain.info method.

So...at a technical level, how exactly will someone be able to obtain CHA by simply sending BTC to your burn address by simply "using Bitcoin wallet software"?  Is that really all that is required?  Or is the protocol actually more rigid (as it was with Counterparty), and do individuals casually sending BTC to your burn address risk losing their hard-earned BTC if they fail to meet that protocol's format requirements?  



This is a fair question. To avoid confusion, please use the provided software to burn BTC into CHA. The document has been updated.

You can send btc from any address to which you control the private keys because the XCP or in this case CHA is credited to that address (your CHA address is the same as your BTC address).
This includes blockchain.info as you can export the keys.

I don't agree with this project though...
Matt Y
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March 23, 2014, 11:16:44 PM
 #7

I'm fairly non technical and have a basic question. Will you please explain the advantage of this approach vs creating an asset within Counterparty, or why this could not be done within Counterparty?

Thanks.

PhantomPhreak
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March 23, 2014, 11:25:01 PM
 #8

I'm fairly non technical and have a basic question. Will you please explain the advantage of this approach vs creating an asset within Counterparty, or why this could not be done within Counterparty?

Thanks.

If I understand it correctly, Chancecoin is like Counterparty, but built around one new feature, feedless, trustless betting, using block hashes as a source of randomness. However (see my question above), I don't think that this will work, because miners could game the system. If I'm wrong, then I don't see the need for another coin---we could add the feature to Counterparty directly.
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March 23, 2014, 11:36:08 PM
 #9

Burn BTC to play dice Tongue
magician
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March 24, 2014, 02:44:51 AM
 #10

How do you handle the Op_Return (non) issue?
I calculated the burn period to be roughly 45 days? That correct?

For the op_return issue, we're in the same position as Counterparty. The burn period is in fact roughly 45 days.

Quote
I'm fairly non technical and have a basic question. Will you please explain the advantage of this approach vs creating an asset within Counterparty, or why this could not be done within Counterparty?

I can't think of a clean way to implement Chancecoin using Counterparty assets, but I'm open to ideas. Counterparty does have a betting feature, but a key issue with using it to create something like Chancecoin is that Counterparty requires all bets to settle based on a broadcast feed that is generated by a central party who is a user of Counterparty. In addition, with Counterparty, bets must settle between exactly two parties. So someone could potentially set up a casino via Counterparty, and take bets from any number of gamblers, but there is no easy way for a group of people to act as the casino's bankroll collectively and without having to trust each other.

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March 24, 2014, 03:59:40 AM
 #11

I'm fairly non technical and have a basic question. Will you please explain the advantage of this approach vs creating an asset within Counterparty, or why this could not be done within Counterparty?

Thanks.

If I understand it correctly, Chancecoin is like Counterparty, but built around one new feature, feedless, trustless betting, using block hashes as a source of randomness. However (see my question above), I don't think that this will work, because miners could game the system. If I'm wrong, then I don't see the need for another coin---we could add the feature to Counterparty directly.

Thanks for the input. We will address the issue of the miner of a certain block potentially being able to predict the result and have an update by tomorrow at the latest.

Regarding the comment on whether decentralized dice betting can be implemented as a feature in Counterparty, we believe that implementing this functionality in a separate coin is a cleaner approach. We see Counterparty coin and protocol as a father to coins like Chancecoin similar to the way Bitcoin is the father to the universe of alt-coins. We believe there are many other coins and applications that can be built on top of the Counterparty protocol to address specific needs. In this case we want to solve a very specific problem of decentralized dice betting by creating Chancecoin. As investors of Counterparty and developers of Chancecoin, we believe that if Chancecoin were to succeed, this could further demonstrate the power of the Counterparty protocol. The approach of adding features to Counterparty to address such a specific problem of dice betting and investing in the bank roll would detract from the main set of capabilities that Counterparty is known for.
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March 24, 2014, 01:16:27 PM
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 Tongue
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March 25, 2014, 01:53:35 AM
 #13

Is this thing legit?

magician
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March 25, 2014, 03:16:39 AM
 #14


How do I buy CHA?

During the burn period, all you need to do is send BTC to 1ChancecoinXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXZELUFD. You can do this using Bitcoin wallet software, or using the standard Chancecoin wallet or command line interface.


(my emphasis added above)

For the moment, let's set aside any question of whether this is a gimmick or a scam.  You seem to be modeling your proof-of-burn after Counterparty.  However, if I recall correctly, Counterparty had some very specific formatting requirements for their burns to be successfully picked up and recognized by the Counterparty reference client and "converted" to XCP.  You couldn't just send bitcoins to the burn address from any client -- initially you needed to do it using the Counterparty software, and then later some very specific (but tricky) methods were also rolled out, such as a blockchain.info method.

So...at a technical level, how exactly will someone be able to obtain CHA by simply sending BTC to your burn address by simply "using Bitcoin wallet software"?  Is that really all that is required?  Or is the protocol actually more rigid (as it was with Counterparty), and do individuals casually sending BTC to your burn address risk losing their hard-earned BTC if they fail to meet that protocol's format requirements?  



This is a fair question. To avoid confusion, please use the provided software to burn BTC into CHA. The document has been updated.

As of now, you can burn BTC into CHA using any Bitcoin wallet software by sending BTC to the burn address. The input must come from a single Bitcoin address. There can be multiple output addresses in any order, as long as one of them is the burn address (1ChancecoinXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXZELUFD).

We have a solution in mind for the concern about miners gaming the system. Stay tuned.

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PhantomPhreak
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March 25, 2014, 05:16:07 PM
 #15

As of now, you can burn BTC into CHA using any Bitcoin wallet software by sending BTC to the burn address. The input must come from a single Bitcoin address. There can be multiple output addresses in any order, as long as one of them is the burn address (1ChancecoinXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXZELUFD).

Be careful. It's very hard to get most wallets to send from a single input, even if you totally expect them to.
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March 28, 2014, 02:51:07 AM
 #16

Having heard the community's concerns about block hashes being prone to manipulation, we have decided not to use block hashes to resolve bets. Rather, we will be using New York Lottery Quick Draw numbers to resolve bets.

New York Lottery Quick Draw

Quick Draw numbers are drawn every four minutes, every day of the week. The numbers are published online shortly after they are drawn. The drawing selects 20 numbers randomly from a pool of numbers 1 through 80, without replacement. In the newest version of the Chancecoin protocol, a bet seen in the blockchain will be resolved with the next available set of Quick Draw numbers. We use combinadics to convert these numbers to a random uniform variable, and use it to resolve the bet.

We have more updates coming this weekend.

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March 28, 2014, 06:09:05 AM
 #17

Is the burn address (1ChancecoinXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXZELUFD) still available ?

Do we still need to burn to invest as house ?

What about the house edge if we change to use the new york lottery ?
magician
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March 28, 2014, 10:44:55 PM
 #18

The burn address is still the same, and you still need to burn to invest in the house. The house edge is still 2%. We will give a detailed explanation this weekend about how betting is settled for those who are interested in the technical details.

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March 28, 2014, 11:57:42 PM
 #19

Having heard the community's concerns about block hashes being prone to manipulation, we have decided not to use block hashes to resolve bets. Rather, we will be using New York Lottery Quick Draw numbers to resolve bets.

New York Lottery Quick Draw

Quick Draw numbers are drawn every four minutes, every day of the week. The numbers are published online shortly after they are drawn. The drawing selects 20 numbers randomly from a pool of numbers 1 through 80, without replacement. In the newest version of the Chancecoin protocol, a bet seen in the blockchain will be resolved with the next available set of Quick Draw numbers. We use combinadics to convert these numbers to a random uniform variable, and use it to resolve the bet.

We have more updates coming this weekend.
I think that with this solution miners will still be able to manipulate the results with the following algorithm:

1. make a bet
2. mine a block
3. if current set of Quick Draw numbers makes me a winner then publish block
4. wait for the next set of Quick Draw numbers
5. goto 2

Of course someone else may mine the block in the meantime, but a large pool with 30-40% hashrate of the network will make the results considerably unfair. Pool with 90% hashrate will be able to win almost every time. How will you prevent that?

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March 29, 2014, 01:11:48 AM
 #20

Having heard the community's concerns about block hashes being prone to manipulation, we have decided not to use block hashes to resolve bets. Rather, we will be using New York Lottery Quick Draw numbers to resolve bets.

New York Lottery Quick Draw

Quick Draw numbers are drawn every four minutes, every day of the week. The numbers are published online shortly after they are drawn. The drawing selects 20 numbers randomly from a pool of numbers 1 through 80, without replacement. In the newest version of the Chancecoin protocol, a bet seen in the blockchain will be resolved with the next available set of Quick Draw numbers. We use combinadics to convert these numbers to a random uniform variable, and use it to resolve the bet.

We have more updates coming this weekend.

If you can find a solution, it's much more elegant to use only the blockchain without external source.

If you use multiple blocks to generate a random number, it will already be more difficult to cheat.

For example :
- Use a block B1 to generate a number N1 between 1 and 100
- Use the block (B1-N1) to generate a number N2 between 1 and 100
- Use the block (B1-N1-N2) to generate a number N3 between 1 and 100
- ... repeat ...
- Use N100 as pseudo-random number.

This is just an example that requires more thought, but I think it is possible to make cheating difficult enough, for it is not profitable.

I like the idea of ​​having a random number generator in Counterparty. Potentially, this allows to play Poker, Blackjack, etc... And it would be a natural evolution of bets that already exist in Counterparty.
IMHO it is less cleaner to implement a new coin just for this functionality. The same question arises for the hundreds of LTC clones. Intuitively I think it is not good for LTC. But I think no one ever will know the real answer..


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