25th Word in Nano Ledger S

[Pmalek]

Is there actually any requirement to add accounts to Ledger Live? Can you not just use it to verify your device, update the firmware, and add and remove apps, without ever adding accounts or syncing your balances?

In theory, it should be possible. Installing/uninstalling apps and adding/deleting accounts in Ledger live are completely independent processes. After you install an app, the LL software doesn't force you to add any accounts. The software will sync with the blockchain and look for existing accounts with balances only during the process of adding accounts. After a Ledger-native app is installed, Ledger Live will not display any accounts unless you initiate that process manually.   

[jerry0]

So how does one use ledger live this way then without giving up information? 



Imagine you were told to turn on your laptop and then log into ledger live.  Sure your seed might have say 0.5 btc where that is the balance.. but your hidden balance could be 5 btc... and both of those accounts would be showing on ledger live.  Then aren't you screwed because okay they know you have a hidden wallet?  Thus that person would go... okay you actually have 5 whole btc and not 0.5 btc.



Could you have the 5 btc hidden account not shown on ledger live?  But obviously you want it shown there when you check on it normally etc.

[o_e_l_e_o]

So how does one use ledger live this way then without giving up information?

With difficulty.

Could you have the 5 btc hidden account not shown on ledger live?  But obviously you want it shown there when you check on it normally etc.

You would have to delete and re-add the account every time you wanted to access it. There is no need to "check on it". If it has been created properly then it is safe and there is no need to "check on it", and if you have messed up and it isn't safe, then "checking on it" achieves literally nothing since once your coins are stolen there is nothing you can do about it anyway.

Options include deleting and re-adding the account each time as I've said, using a different piece of wallet software to access your hidden wallets (but again, making sure you do not leave any traces of these hidden wallets such as an Electrum wallet file), or using a different install of Ledger Live to access your hidden wallets (perhaps on a different computer or hidden in an encrypted file).

[jerry0]

Okay im back in the US for now but for a short time.



I still don't want to do this on my same device for some reason.  For some reason still feel like i should get a second device to do this.  But to make sure everything is good... i should first enter my ledger seed on the ledger itself to confirm it is correct with my device before i proceed with this right?  I will have to get my seed first before i do this but once i get the seed and enter it on ledger to confirm... then i can proceed without concern right?



Now... I got to assume you guys who first do this when you already have coins in your nano ledger s... test sending a tiny amount first right when doing it?  Then again, its pretty expensive to send any btc now right?  Back then it was cents and a dollar or around there so no big difference.  But one probably should send like 0.00l btc first to make sure it works?  Then once new address receives it... should you do a reset of your device?  Or not necessary?  Also there is no need for a new seed that you need to write down right?



So after you reset it or confirm the tiny amount of btc is sent to the new address... then you send the rest at once?  Or some might might just send a smaller piece and another smaller piece and then a big piece of it?  I know it has to do with outputs so its possible sending one whole time for whole amount of btc might not even save you much compared to sending btc few times to the new address?



I ask this because imagine someone has a lot of btc ... like 5 btc or l0 btc.  I mean... you send a small amount of 0.00l btc to the new address that is connected with the passphrase and second pin right?  But once it goes through... you going to send like the remaining almost 5 btc or l0 btc at once?  Im using that as an example since im curious but people with huge amounts of btc does here when wanting to do that passphrase.



I mean... even for l btc... wouldnt you all feel nervous after sending 0.00l btc to the new hidden address account... then having to send the rest of it in the second transfer at once?  I can imagine anyone having l btc or more doing this taking extreme caution right?  Like imagine someone with 5 btc sending it to the hidden address account... and having to wait a long time for it to transfer in the blockchain... would seem like lot of anxiety right now... do most people agree?

[HCP]

Install the "Recovery Check" app on your Nano S: https://support.ledger.com/hc/en-us/articles/360007223753-Recovery-Check

Use it to confirm that the seed you have written down/stored offline is indeed the seed currently in use by your device. If that checks out feel free to do whatever you like in terms of sending coins to your device.

Some people will send a small amount to test before loading the bulk of their coins. Others will just send away. Some people will send with low fees regardless of network conditions as they don't want to spend money on fees... others want quick confirmation times and will send with high fees to get the coins their quickly.

As for sending amounts... it depends how you envision spending coins in the future... by sending say all your 5 BTC at once, you end up with 1 UTXO... however, when you go to spend in the future, the entire world will be able to see that the address had 5 BTC on it, which means the owner had at least 5 BTC... regardless of how much you actually try to send.

So, some folks like to keep a "range" of UTXOs on different addresses... say, 10, 1, 0.1, 0.01 etc... That way they can use "coin control" to spend an appropriately sized UTXO for what they're trying to send to "obscure" their total holdings... ie. if they only want to send 0.1, they can use just the 0.1 and 0.01 UTXOs (got to cover that fee! ) and then anyone who sees the transaction will only be able to tell that the owner had at least 0.11 BTC... but they won't see the other 11+ BTC on different addresses

However, if you anticipate that you may need to shift the vast majority of your holdings somewhere, (ie. sending all to exchange to cash out)... then having a lot of smaller UTXO's will end up costing you more in transaction fees.

There is no "one size fits all" solution to this... So you're just going to have to sit down and think what your most likely scenarios are... and then create a system that works for that.

[jerry0]

Okay will install recovery check.



How long ago did ledger had this recovery check app?  I recall when i first got the ledger few years ago, im not sure they had that option yet... if it did... it might been pretty new?  I got it three years ago or so more or less.



Well right now... how much does it cost to send btc from nano ledger s address to a new address?  I know you can configure fees but the lowest fee is like how much now?



Well if a person has 5 btc, how would they even send it to the hidden address?  That is a ton of btc nowadays.  Would that person send tiny amount like 0.00l btc to make sure the new address receives it.  Then send the entire bulk of the rest in the second transaction?  I dont know how some ppl could even feel comfortable sending say 0.5 btc now in just one transaction without anxiety etc.



But if you are trying to send all the btc in your main wallet to a hidden wallet... isn't it true that won't work because someone could see that a person moved that much btc to another address so its obvious they still own that btc?



I recall someone said... imagine someone who had like 5 btc in their nano ledger s.  But now they want the passphrase and the extra word.  So that way, the btc they have when they enter the pin on their nano ledger would only show their main btc wallet which would have btc but not the bulk of it.  Like imagine someone thinks this person only has say 0.05 btc only.  But if they were to check and see this person sent like l btc or say 5 btc to another address... isn't it obvious that person also owns that btc as well and its in their hidden wallet?  Of course if that other person knows your 0.05 btc wallet cannot be all you have... then obviously they would know of hidden wallet right?  But again, this would need someone to be very knowledgeable about the other person? 



But even so, how does one even move their btc without drawing attention then?  I mean if someone has say 5 btc... they going to do the extra word and passphrase and then send btc to like l0 different btc addresses then so they going to have like l0 hidden addresses?  But someone said well if the other person sees those btc never moved.... then isn't it obvious the owner still has it?  You say keep a range of utxos... but now you going to pay like twenty bucks each time to send to different address?  So if someone has like l0 btc or something ridiculous like that... they going to need to slowly move the btc to different addresses to not draw attention?  Again the big issue seem to be... well what if they see your accounts on ledger live... that seem to be a big issue here isn't it?  Unless you could delete all your accounts and restore them each time pretty easily?

[Rath_]

How long ago did ledger had this recovery check app?  I recall when i first got the ledger few years ago, im not sure they had that option yet... if it did... it might been pretty new?  I got it three years ago or so more or less.

It's been available for about 3 years.

Well right now... how much does it cost to send btc from nano ledger s address to a new address?  I know you can configure fees but the lowest fee is like how much now?

The lowest possible fee is 1 sat/vbyte (most nodes reject values lower than that). As for right now, you need to pay about 12 sat/vbyte to get your transaction confirmed in the next block. By the time you decide to send your coins, this value will have changed. The total fee depends on the size of the transaction. The more inputs and outputs you have, the more you are going to pay.

A transaction with 1 native SegWit input and 2 native SegWit outputs weights 141 vbytes. So, if you selected 12 sat/vbyte, you would pay a 0.00001692 BTC fee.

But if you are trying to send all the btc in your main wallet to a hidden wallet... isn't it true that won't work because someone could see that a person moved that much btc to another address so its obvious they still own that btc?

No one can be completely certain if you are sending all those coins to yourself. You can always use a mixing service if you are concerned about your privacy. For example, if you use ChipMixer, you will get a private key to an address with coins which were deposited sometime in the past. However, with your reasoning, it doesn't make sense much sense anyway.

[dkbit98]

However, with your reasoning, it doesn't make sense much sense anyway.

Does any of his rumbling posts ever made any real sense?
Not for me and maybe I need a translator for his 1001 questions, but I am glad to see he is Back in America and keeping his account active
I am really lost are we still talking about about 25th word in this topic or about anxiety and feeling nervous when sending bitcoins...


 

[Pmalek]

How long ago did ledger had this recovery check app?

It doesn't really matter. If you trust Ledger with your coins and you use their native apps you can trust them in regards to the Recovery App as well.  

Well right now... how much does it cost to send btc from nano ledger s address to a new address?  I know you can configure fees but the lowest fee is like how much now?

That changes all the time and with each newly mined block. Just use https://mempool.space/ before you want to send any bitcoins. Use the high priority recommendation if you are in a hurry, or the medium/low priority if you can wait a few hours or days. Please don't ask how much you will have to wait, that also depends on the state of the mempool.

Right now, at 12:29 CET, you can get a next block confirmation for 14 sats/vByte. At the time this post is finished and posted, those conditions can change.
Aaand we just found a new block, so you can get your transaction into the next one for just 11 sats. That's why it doesn't make sense asking what the current fee rate is and reading about it 2 days later when things can change within a few minutes. 

[o_e_l_e_o]

Like imagine someone thinks this person only has say 0.05 btc only.  But if they were to check and see this person sent like l btc or say 5 btc to another address... isn't it obvious that person also owns that btc as well and its in their hidden wallet?

Yes, if you move 5 BTC from your main wallet to another address and it never moves from there, then it is pretty obviously you have simply moved it to another wallet for safe keeping.

So instead, create a brand new seed on your Ledger device. Send your 5 BTC from your old wallet to ChipMixer, and then send 0.1 BTC from ChipMixer to your new seed phrase, and send 4.9 BTC from ChipMixer to a wallet using your new seed phrase and a passphrase. If someone coerces you in to unlocking your Ledger device or revealing your seed phrase, they can steal the 0.1 BTC from your base wallet. Even looking at the transaction history on the blockchain, there will be no link between that 0.1 BTC which has been stolen and the 4.9 BTC which remains hidden and secure behind your additional passphrase.

But someone said well if the other person sees those btc never moved.... then isn't it obvious the owner still has it?

Not if you've mixed it. They will see your coins disappear in to a mixer and will have no idea which long term static bitcoin belong to you.

You say keep a range of utxos... but now you going to pay like twenty bucks each time to send to different address?

So split your 5 BTC in to 10x 0.5 BTC. If you want to send all 10 outputs to an exchange to sell, then does spending $20 for a 10 input transaction if fees happen to be especially high really matter when you are about to cash out $300,000?

Again the big issue seem to be... well what if they see your accounts on ledger live... that seem to be a big issue here isn't it?

So don't use Ledger Live.

[jerry0]

Okay if thats the case, then how do people do this without making it obvious then?  You have to use a mixer no matter what?


Okay so create a new seed... then do it.  That makes sense.  But how are you suppose to do this if you only have one ledger nano s?  I mean you aren't resetting it or putting wrong pin three times right?  Im confused how you do this here. 


But im curious is that what majority of people are doing? I know you are using 5 btc as an example which is already a lot.  But if you have less, it would still be worth it to do that right?


I don't know how its possible to not use ledger live.  So what does one do to check their balance and send/receive coins then?  Back then it was ledger manager.


I could imagine this process much easier if you had a second nano ledger s.  With just one nano ledger s... isn't a mistake pretty possible this way?

[HCP]

Why is a mistake possible with only one device?

Reset device, create new seed (backup new seed!)... get master public key, create watching only wallet in something like Electrum... reset device, enter old seed... send ALL coins to mixer... get addresses from "new seed" wallet using watching only wallet... send coins from mixer to new seed addresses.

Reset device, enter new seed... live happily ever after.



Having 2 devices would definitely make it easier, but there is no reason you can't do it with only 1 device... it's just a bit more tedious.

[o_e_l_e_o]

Okay if thats the case, then how do people do this without making it obvious then?  You have to use a mixer no matter what?

If you want to break the link between your old wallet and your new one, then you need to actually do something to break the link. The easiest way to do that, in my opinion, is to use ChipMixer. The other option I would consider would be using CoinJoin.

But how are you suppose to do this if you only have one ledger nano s?  I mean you aren't resetting it or putting wrong pin three times right?  Im confused how you do this here.

If I only had one Ledger Nano, then the easiest way would be to send all the funds to ChipMixer (making sure you have saved your session code, of course), reset the Ledger, set up a new seed phrase, withdraw one or more small value chips from ChipMixer and send to this wallet, then set up a passphrase and withdraw the majority of your chips to this wallet. If you aren't comfortable sending the entire amount to ChipMixer in one go, then do as HCP has said to create a new wallet on your Ledger, set up a watch only wallet for this new wallet, restore your old wallet on your Ledger, and send and withdraw the coins in batches.

But im curious is that what majority of people are doing? I know you are using 5 btc as an example which is already a lot.  But if you have less, it would still be worth it to do that right?

The majority of people pay no attention to their privacy. Whether this is worth doing or not for you depends entirely on your risk model and how much you value your privacy.

I don't know how its possible to not use ledger live.  So what does one do to check their balance and send/receive coins then?  Back then it was ledger manager.

Electrum.

I could imagine this process much easier if you had a second nano ledger s.  With just one nano ledger s... isn't a mistake pretty possible this way?

As long as you have your seed phrase backed up on paper, then the only realistic mistakes would be user error. Take your time and double check every transaction. I've been using ChipMixer for years and have never once made a mistake when depositing coins, withdrawing chips, or saving or restoring sessions or vouchers.

[jerry0]

Okay but do you think most people are even trying to break the link between old wallet and new one?  Would you say not necessary and just do the passphrase and hidden wallet and that should be good enough?


I guess only if that person knows you have a lot of btc and that amount you have in your main wallet is so little so they know its hidden wallet?


Again but the main issue is if you were told to reveal your pin... well wouldnt you have to ot it to a laptop then which would reveal your other wallet assuming you have ledger live on your laptop like most people?  I mean someone having your hardware wallet is useless without pin... but also if you tell them your pin, they still need to confirm its correct.  So with nano ledger s, that still require connecting to a laptop right?  Thus if its your laptop, then its screwed since it will show alll your wallets?  Thus your main one and hidden one? 


Now if you have ledger x, that would be difference since they could literally connect it to any device like a phone and then it show the wallet and coins?  But this way its better in that well they cant see the hidden wallet?  Or incorrect since well you still using ledger live?


So most ppl thus for security purposes, use electrum with nano ledger s and do not bother with ledger live then for situations like this?  But is the hidden wallet still shown on electrum though when you open the program each time?  That seem to be confusing thing here.


But is there a way for you to delete your hidden wallet from ledger live so each time you log into ledger live, it only has your main wallet?  Then you add your hidden wallet into ledger live each time to check it?  But when you close the program, you delete the hidden wallet account each time?  Thus if you were told to open your laptop as well to connect to ledger live, well you have you main wallet which is small amount of btc and ledger live.. only showing that main wallet?

[o_e_l_e_o]

Would you say not necessary and just do the passphrase and hidden wallet and that should be good enough?

Again, no one can answer that question for you. It depends entirely on what you consider an acceptable risk. If you think you are at significant risk of someone forcing you to reveal your PIN to your Ledger wallet or your seed phrase, then no, it is not good enough. A transaction leaving that wallet containing ~90% of your funds going to another address and never moving from that address is a dead giveaway that you have moved it to a different wallet still under your control.

well wouldnt you have to ot it to a laptop then which would reveal your other wallet assuming you have ledger live on your laptop like most people?  I mean someone having your hardware wallet is useless without pin... but also if you tell them your pin, they still need to confirm its correct.  So with nano ledger s, that still require connecting to a laptop right?  Thus if its your laptop, then its screwed since it will show alll your wallets?  Thus your main one and hidden one? 

Correct. Part of the reason I don't use Ledger Live, although I assume you can simply delete your hidden wallet from Ledger Live and then re-add it next time you want to use it. I have no idea if such activity would be recorded in some logs somewhere, there.

So most ppl thus for security purposes, use electrum with nano ledger s and do not bother with ledger live then for situations like this?  But is the hidden wallet still shown on electrum though when you open the program each time?  That seem to be confusing thing here.

If you keep the wallet file saved on your computer, then yes, the attacker will see another wallet file. They won't know what is inside the wallet file or if it is linked to the same hardware wallet though. You can also, very simply, delete the wallet file when not using it.

[Pmalek]

Correct. Part of the reason I don't use Ledger Live, although I assume you can simply delete your hidden wallet from Ledger Live and then re-add it next time you want to use it. I have no idea if such activity would be recorded in some logs somewhere, there.

You can delete any wallet, or more precisely, account, through your Ledger Live interface. But it's really easy to get those back. If someone forces you to reveal your PIN and have you log in to your Ledger Live, all they would have to do is is click on the add accounts button for bitcoin, for example, and have Ledger scan for all existing accounts. At that point, all the accounts you created would be revealed including those you removed manually.

You had to use Ledger Live to install your crypto apps and keep the firmware up to date. If the thief knows what he is doing, he will know this. 

[o_e_l_e_o]

If someone forces you to reveal your PIN and have you log in to your Ledger Live, all they would have to do is is click on the add accounts button for bitcoin, for example, and have Ledger scan for all existing accounts. At that point, all the accounts you created would be revealed including those you removed manually.

As I said, I don't use Ledger Live so I'm not overly familiar with this process, but provided the hardware wallet does as it says and doesn't store any temporary passphrase on the device, then there is no possible way that having Ledger Live scan for accounts would identify your passphrased wallets unless it brute force attempts every possible passphrase, which is of course impossible. If could only find other accounts at the standard derivation paths it scans for, and I would wager that even something as simple as using a non-standard derivation path would effectively hide your wallet from Ledger Live's automatic detection process.

You had to use Ledger Live to install your crypto apps and keep the firmware up to date. If the thief knows what he is doing, he will know this.

Sure, but at no point in updating the firmware or the apps did I need to actually add a bitcoin account (or any other coin, for that matter).

[jerry0]

This is a lot complicated than it looks then.  I mean i thought the passphrase would be protecting you with your hidden wallet but if you use ledger live which i assume majority of people do... then you can't do that. 


The fact that you say log into ledger live and click on add accounts and thats all it scan everything, how does even this passphrase even protect you much then? 


So you install ledger live and update everything first, then basically delete the PROGRAM itself each time then as in remove the program?  Or that doesn't work either since well if you download the ledger live program again on you laptop, you could still use your ledger live password or you need to create a new ledger live account?



Because how come I don't see anyone mention about mainly using electrum then if you are doing passphrase for hidden wallet?


I dont see any mention from ledger live about oh you want to do a hidden wallet... well you need to do passphrase and second pin for that access... but you also need to know you can't use ledger live etc...

[Pmalek]

About the passphrase and the passphrase-protected wallet. I think this is how it works.

Let's say you have two bitcoin wallets in Ledger Live. Wallet 1 is your standard wallet, Wallet 2 is your passphrase-protected wallet. After you set up your secondary PIN and the passphrase-protected wallet, both Wallet 1 and 2 will remain visible in Ledger Live. If you login using the PIN for your main wallet (wallet 1) you will still be able to see your passphrase-protected wallet in LL, but you wont be able to do anything with it. For example, you can't send a transaction from it.

If you don't want it to be visible, you should manually delete the passphrase-protected wallet from your portfolio in LL so that only your main wallet remains. That way when you log in, you only see your main balance and not the hidden wallet balance. The next time you want to use your passphrase-protected wallet, you have to log in with your secondary PIN or passphrase, and add the account again in LL.   

[o_e_l_e_o]

I mean i thought the passphrase would be protecting you with your hidden wallet but if you use ledger live which i assume majority of people do... then you can't do that.

The passphrase absolutely protects your hidden wallet. However, if you leave a piece of paper on your desk which says "Main wallet - 0.1 BTC, passphrased walled - 4.9 BTC", then obviously you have given away the existence your passphrased wallet. This is essentially what you are doing by adding all your accounts to Ledger Live. If you want your passphrased wallet to remain hidden, then you actually have to hide it, and not leave traces of its existence everywhere.

So you install ledger live and update everything first, then basically delete the PROGRAM itself each time then as in remove the program?  Or that doesn't work either since well if you download the ledger live program again on you laptop, you could still use your ledger live password or you need to create a new ledger live account?

You don't need to delete the program. Simply delete the accounts you want to hide. You can re-add them later when you want to use them.

Because how come I don't see anyone mention about mainly using electrum then if you are doing passphrase for hidden wallet?

Plenty of people use Electrum for both Ledger and Trezor hardware wallets, since it provides more functionality and more advanced options than either of their native clients.