Buying property with crypto

[countryfree]

And how do people in France solve problems if they cannot confirm the legality of buying cryptocurrency?
I heard that in countries like France, Germany there are very strict taxation and control over real estate purchases.
I think that there is less and less time left for the cryptocurrency to remain out of control.

That's the question: if the user has had btc for a long time and even earned them years ago by playing on sites that have disappeared or mined btc, if he bought them and no longer has the bank statements (perhaps he's even changed bank since then and there are no archives), it's not going to be easy, if only to declare the capital gains to the tax authorities. In any case, he'll only be able to recover modest sums in PtoP, otherwise the bank's red lights will be going off all over the place.

It will not be easy anyway.

It's totally impossible to buy any property with BTC in France. Proof of funds is not an issue, you wouldn't find a notary to make the sale.
Was there last month, I'm thinking about buying a barn in Normandy, but I didn't even ask about BTC, it would have been a waste of time.

It's complicated, but not impossible. As I explained earlier, you can use the "dation in payment". In addition, a real estate series on Netflix shows an investor who absolutely wants to pay in BTC; in the docu they don't explain anything, but we can say that as long as the State receives its share (in fiats), then it's possible. After that, it's silly: it's better to resell your btc, pay your flat tax and simplify everything for the notary.

Dation en paiement: this is a method of settling a debt in which the debtor, with the creditor's agreement, hands over to the creditor something other than that initially stipulated in the contract.

Everything you need to know about dation in payment : https://www.village-justice.com/articles/dation-paiement-comme-modalite-reglement-une-dette,38798.html


And if your notary doesn't know about bitcoin, he does know about dation in payment. All that remains is to set the price of the property, and if the seller agrees to a fixed amount of btc at the time of the promise to purchase (even if it means having to put up with market fluctuations).

I guess you don't have much experience buying or selling real estate, but I do.
Grab your phone. Call a few French notaries, and ask them if it's possible to buy a property with BTC. You will not find a single one...

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[Becassine]

I guess you don't have much experience buying or selling real estate, but I do.
Grab your phone. Call a few French notaries, and ask them if it's possible to buy a property with BTC. You will not find a single one...

The French can be so arrogant. I suppose you're a man, aren't you?
Just because notaires don't want to change their habits, just like accountants, doesn't mean it's impossible to buy a property with bitcoins. It's legal and possible, even if, as I've already explained, it's complicated.

Difficult, but not impossible. And legal.

[zasad@]

One Frenchman has already bought a car with bitcoins:
https://news.bitcoin.com/report-french-crypto-trader-jailed-for-18-months-for-buying-a-ferrari-with-bitcoin/
"Report: French Crypto Trader Jailed for 18 Months for Buying a Ferrari With Bitcoin
A French crypto trader, Thomas Clausi.."

In Russia, smart people always try not to be the first in such situations, but learn from the mistakes of others. You need to wait at least 3-5 years until experience in such transactions is formed.

[Becassine]

One Frenchman has already bought a car with bitcoins:
https://news.bitcoin.com/report-french-crypto-trader-jailed-for-18-months-for-buying-a-ferrari-with-bitcoin/
"Report: French Crypto Trader Jailed for 18 Months for Buying a Ferrari With Bitcoin
A French crypto trader, Thomas Clausi.."

In Russia, smart people always try not to be the first in such situations, but learn from the mistakes of others. You need to wait at least 3-5 years until experience in such transactions is formed.

The story happened in Morocco. The buyer probably took advantage of the fact that the young french seller was unaware of the regulations to file a complaint after the btc dropped.
Although at first she obviously accepted.

Virtual currency transactions are strictly forbidden in Morocco, and officially constitute a breach of the country's foreign exchange regulations. Morocco's foreign exchange regulations clearly stipulate that resident Moroccans may only have foreign accounts under certain conditions (i.e., being an exporter of goods or services). Any breach of these rules is punishable by 5 years' imprisonment and a fine of between 500 and 20,000 dirhams.

[countryfree]

My experiences with French notaries is that they don't give you any choice. The buyer must pay the notary fully or they don't do anything. After the sale, the notary pay the seller. If someone knows another way, please give the name of the notary who allows it.

Actually, I like to do things this way. It's very secure for both buyer and seller. Proof of payment is kept by the notary. Elsewhere, the buyer pays the seller directly with the notary keeping all details of the bank transfer, but the French way is more secure, and more and more countries are adopting it. And that rules out any payment in cryptos.

[Becassine]

My experiences with French notaries is that they don't give you any choice. The buyer must pay the notary fully or they don't do anything. After the sale, the notary pay the seller. If someone knows another way, please give the name of the notary who allows it.

Actually, I like to do things this way. It's very secure for both buyer and seller. Proof of payment is kept by the notary. Elsewhere, the buyer pays the seller directly with the notary keeping all details of the bank transfer, but the French way is more secure, and more and more countries are adopting it. And that rules out any payment in cryptos.

If retailers in France don't accept bitcoin, it's because accountants aren't trained and don't want to get involved. If notaries don't want to transact in bitcoins, it's for the same reasons. But as long as you pay your taxes and the notary in fiat, you can buy your property with whatever you want, as long as the seller agrees. However, the property must be at the "right price", otherwise there's a risk of a tax reassessment.

Here the notary says that if you pay in bitcoins, you avoid the Flat Tax, but I think he's wrong: when you buy a property in bitcoins, you normally have to pay capital gains tax.

https://www.bfmtv.com/immobilier/est-il-possible-d-acheter-son-bien-immobilier-en-bitcoins_AN-202105190634.html

[zasad@]

One Frenchman has already bought a car with bitcoins:
https://news.bitcoin.com/report-french-crypto-trader-jailed-for-18-months-for-buying-a-ferrari-with-bitcoin/
"Report: French Crypto Trader Jailed for 18 Months for Buying a Ferrari With Bitcoin
A French crypto trader, Thomas Clausi.."

In Russia, smart people always try not to be the first in such situations, but learn from the mistakes of others. You need to wait at least 3-5 years until experience in such transactions is formed.

The story happened in Morocco. The buyer probably took advantage of the fact that the young french seller was unaware of the regulations to file a complaint after the btc dropped.
Although at first she obviously accepted.

Virtual currency transactions are strictly forbidden in Morocco, and officially constitute a breach of the country's foreign exchange regulations. Morocco's foreign exchange regulations clearly stipulate that resident Moroccans may only have foreign accounts under certain conditions (i.e., being an exporter of goods or services). Any breach of these rules is punishable by 5 years' imprisonment and a fine of between 500 and 20,000 dirhams.

The key here is knowing the laws and understanding the risks. And what are the risks when buying real estate for bitcoins in France? Will you be sued if the price of bitcoin falls? The price of bitcoin can fall by 10 percent or more per day and can rise.
But won't you have to go to court after that and prove that your transaction was legal?

[Becassine]

One Frenchman has already bought a car with bitcoins:
https://news.bitcoin.com/report-french-crypto-trader-jailed-for-18-months-for-buying-a-ferrari-with-bitcoin/
"Report: French Crypto Trader Jailed for 18 Months for Buying a Ferrari With Bitcoin
A French crypto trader, Thomas Clausi.."

In Russia, smart people always try not to be the first in such situations, but learn from the mistakes of others. You need to wait at least 3-5 years until experience in such transactions is formed.

The story happened in Morocco. The buyer probably took advantage of the fact that the young french seller was unaware of the regulations to file a complaint after the btc dropped.
Although at first she obviously accepted.

Virtual currency transactions are strictly forbidden in Morocco, and officially constitute a breach of the country's foreign exchange regulations. Morocco's foreign exchange regulations clearly stipulate that resident Moroccans may only have foreign accounts under certain conditions (i.e., being an exporter of goods or services). Any breach of these rules is punishable by 5 years' imprisonment and a fine of between 500 and 20,000 dirhams.

The key here is knowing the laws and understanding the risks. And what are the risks when buying real estate for bitcoins in France? Will you be sued if the price of bitcoin falls? The price of bitcoin can fall by 10 percent or more per day and can rise.
But won't you have to go to court after that and prove that your transaction was legal?

As I explained above, buying in btc in France is legal (you need to prove the origin of the funds and pay the flat tax). You can buy a property in apples or anything else as long as taxes and notary fees are paid in fiats and the seller agrees.

As far as market fluctuations are concerned, buyer and seller must agree on the price to be paid in btc, regardless of the exchange rate.

If there's a notarized deed of sale and everything is square, then there's no problem. At least to date.

[zasad@]

One Frenchman has already bought a car with bitcoins:
https://news.bitcoin.com/report-french-crypto-trader-jailed-for-18-months-for-buying-a-ferrari-with-bitcoin/
"Report: French Crypto Trader Jailed for 18 Months for Buying a Ferrari With Bitcoin
A French crypto trader, Thomas Clausi.."

In Russia, smart people always try not to be the first in such situations, but learn from the mistakes of others. You need to wait at least 3-5 years until experience in such transactions is formed.

The story happened in Morocco. The buyer probably took advantage of the fact that the young french seller was unaware of the regulations to file a complaint after the btc dropped.
Although at first she obviously accepted.

Virtual currency transactions are strictly forbidden in Morocco, and officially constitute a breach of the country's foreign exchange regulations. Morocco's foreign exchange regulations clearly stipulate that resident Moroccans may only have foreign accounts under certain conditions (i.e., being an exporter of goods or services). Any breach of these rules is punishable by 5 years' imprisonment and a fine of between 500 and 20,000 dirhams.

The key here is knowing the laws and understanding the risks. And what are the risks when buying real estate for bitcoins in France? Will you be sued if the price of bitcoin falls? The price of bitcoin can fall by 10 percent or more per day and can rise.
But won't you have to go to court after that and prove that your transaction was legal?

As I explained above, buying in btc in France is legal (you need to prove the origin of the funds and pay the flat tax). You can buy a property in apples or anything else as long as taxes and notary fees are paid in fiats and the seller agrees.

As far as market fluctuations are concerned, buyer and seller must agree on the price to be paid in btc, regardless of the exchange rate.

If there's a notarized deed of sale and everything is square, then there's no problem. At least to date.

What is Bitcoin in France? Bitcoin is money, is it a commodity or property?
If an apartment is bought for apples, then this is not a purchase of an apartment, but an exchange agreement

I understand that it is possible to agree on the amount of bitcoins, but I do not understand what additional documents need to be signed so that the parties cannot make claims to each other after the transaction if the price of bitcoin changes.

[Becassine]

What is Bitcoin in France? Bitcoin is money, is it a commodity or property?
If an apartment is bought for apples, then this is not a purchase of an apartment, but an exchange agreement

I understand that it is possible to agree on the amount of bitcoins, but I do not understand what additional documents need to be signed so that the parties cannot make claims to each other after the transaction if the price of bitcoin changes.

In any case, it's not a currency in France (https://www.economie.gouv.fr/particuliers/cryptomonnaies-cryptoactifs). The notary will take care of the sales contract. Just like an employment contract, a marriage contract or any other contract.

[countryfree]

What is Bitcoin in France? Bitcoin is money, is it a commodity or property?
If an apartment is bought for apples, then this is not a purchase of an apartment, but an exchange agreement

I understand that it is possible to agree on the amount of bitcoins, but I do not understand what additional documents need to be signed so that the parties cannot make claims to each other after the transaction if the price of bitcoin changes.

In any case, it's not a currency in France (https://www.economie.gouv.fr/particuliers/cryptomonnaies-cryptoactifs). The notary will take care of the sales contract. Just like an employment contract, a marriage contract or any other contract.

OK, so that could be legal, but if you want to be useful, give us the name of a notary who would accept to do it.

[Becassine]

OK, so that could be legal, but if you want to be useful, give us the name of a notary who would accept to do it.

What fees do you suggest for finding a notary? I'm no longer useful for free in my old age  

But you're used to real estate transactions, so explain what you want to your notaire and he won't really have any reason to refuse.

[countryfree]

OK, so that could be legal, but if you want to be useful, give us the name of a notary who would accept to do it.

What fees do you suggest for finding a notary? I'm no longer useful for free in my old age  

But you're used to real estate transactions, so explain what you want to your notaire and he won't really have any reason to refuse.

It's not for me. It's about being useful to the community here.
I would never buy a property with BTC. That's an incredibly stupid idea. People who promote it have no business experience, or are crooks. Never use BTC to buy real estate. That's my advice.

[Becassine]

OK, so that could be legal, but if you want to be useful, give us the name of a notary who would accept to do it.

What fees do you suggest for finding a notary? I'm no longer useful for free in my old age  

But you're used to real estate transactions, so explain what you want to your notaire and he won't really have any reason to refuse.

It's not for me. It's about being useful to the community here.
I would never buy a property with BTC. That's an incredibly stupid idea. People who promote it have no business experience, or are crooks. Never use BTC to buy real estate. That's my advice.

Being useful to the bitcoin community in that case ? Taking the directory to potentially find a notary in France who can arrange a sale for you in bitcoins, I do not see how it is useful to the community, especially since notaries also inform and form themselves. In addition we are not even on the local board (french). And if a foreigner wants to buy in France with btc, he surely also has his own notary who will get in touch with a French notary.

The list of notaries who could accept bitcoins may therefore vary each day, depends of their curiosity/information. In addition you say yourselves that buying in bitcoins is stupid and that you have not even raised the issue with your notary. It would therefore be a waste of time to look for a notary today without any intention of buying a property with bitcoins. But out of curiosity, you can still ask your notary.

I gave a lot of info on real estate and bitcoin in France, which may be useful, but to serve as a volunteer secretary for a stranger who in the end finds it stupid, no really it's not useful

[Zoomic]

Unfortunately, it's illegal to buy property in the EU with BTC. To those who are not familiar with this business, it's also illegal to pay in a foreign currency like the US dollar, or to pay cash save in one country.  Even if the buyer accepts BTC, the transaction must be in the currency which is legal tender in the country, and the price shall be written in the contract. Sorry, but there's no choice.

Good to know how it's done in EU. But this cannot be taken as standards for othe countries. In my country bitcoin is not a legal tender but people still trade it. But I also thin there might be problems in reconciling the price to fiat for documentation. This is actually a problem easy to solve, just convert your btc to fiat and buy your property.

[zasad@]

What is Bitcoin in France? Bitcoin is money, is it a commodity or property?
If an apartment is bought for apples, then this is not a purchase of an apartment, but an exchange agreement

I understand that it is possible to agree on the amount of bitcoins, but I do not understand what additional documents need to be signed so that the parties cannot make claims to each other after the transaction if the price of bitcoin changes.

In any case, it's not a currency in France (https://www.economie.gouv.fr/particuliers/cryptomonnaies-cryptoactifs). The notary will take care of the sales contract. Just like an employment contract, a marriage contract or any other contract.

In my country, you cannot buy an apartment with bitcoins, but if it is allowed, then I will not be the first to do it. The statute of limitations is long, legal practice takes 2-5 years to form, and why risk a large amount of money if buying an apartment for fiat is easier and cheaper?

[Bushdark]

Unfortunately, it's illegal to buy property in the EU with BTC. To those who are not familiar with this business, it's also illegal to pay in a foreign currency like the US dollar, or to pay cash save in one country.  Even if the buyer accepts BTC, the transaction must be in the currency which is legal tender in the country, and the price shall be written in the contract. Sorry, but there's no choice.

Good to know how it's done in EU. But this cannot be taken as standards for othe countries. In my country bitcoin is not a legal tender but people still trade it. But I also thin there might be problems in reconciling the price to fiat for documentation. This is actually a problem easy to solve, just convert your btc to fiat and buy your property.

Bitcoin is not generally acceptable that is why every countries have there own law that is backing them up. If Bitcoin is acceptable in your country for trades then that is fine but that are some places that the use of crypto is purely ban while we areas, they are strictly regulated because the government is keeping an eye on how frequent and what sort people are using crypto for. Maybe in years coming if there is a need for Bitcoin to become a general currency then the aim of Satoshi Nakamoto will be accomplished but there is still fear that Bitcoin might become regulated.

[zasad@]

Unfortunately, it's illegal to buy property in the EU with BTC. To those who are not familiar with this business, it's also illegal to pay in a foreign currency like the US dollar, or to pay cash save in one country.  Even if the buyer accepts BTC, the transaction must be in the currency which is legal tender in the country, and the price shall be written in the contract. Sorry, but there's no choice.

Good to know how it's done in EU. But this cannot be taken as standards for othe countries. In my country bitcoin is not a legal tender but people still trade it. But I also thin there might be problems in reconciling the price to fiat for documentation. This is actually a problem easy to solve, just convert your btc to fiat and buy your property.

Bitcoin is not generally acceptable that is why every countries have there own law that is backing them up. If Bitcoin is acceptable in your country for trades then that is fine but that are some places that the use of crypto is purely ban while we areas, they are strictly regulated because the government is keeping an eye on how frequent and what sort people are using crypto for. Maybe in years coming if there is a need for Bitcoin to become a general currency then the aim of Satoshi Nakamoto will be accomplished but there is still fear that Bitcoin might become regulated.

To buy real estate for cryptocurrency you need to solve two main problems:
Find a notary and a lawyer who will execute the contract and register this purchase.
You need to pay taxes on cryptocurrency, read the latest tax guides:
https://coinpanda.io/guides/crypto-taxes-france/
https://blockpit.io/en/tax-guides/tax-crypto-guide-france/
Pay your taxes, but don't feel like an idiot afterwards. Some tax rates are inadequate.

[virasog]

To buy real estate for cryptocurrency you need to solve two main problems:
Find a notary and a lawyer who will execute the contract and register this purchase.
You need to pay taxes on cryptocurrency, read the latest tax guides:
https://coinpanda.io/guides/crypto-taxes-france/
https://blockpit.io/en/tax-guides/tax-crypto-guide-france/
Pay your taxes, but don't feel like an idiot afterwards. Some tax rates are inadequate.

The problem to find a notary and a lawyer is not much of a hassle but the problem will be to find a customer who will be willing to accept crypto in order to sell the house. Usually, people will hesitate to receive payments in cryptocurrency as they believe that due to the highly volatile nature of crypto, the price may dump and causes an instant loss.

Secondly, these crypto transactions can only be executed publicly in a country where crypto is legal and the government has no objection to transacting publicly in cryptocurrencies.

As far as the tax is concerned, the parties will have to pay the taxes, either way, whether those choose fiat to execute this deal or use bitcoin/crypto.

[zasad@]

To buy real estate for cryptocurrency you need to solve two main problems:
Find a notary and a lawyer who will execute the contract and register this purchase.
You need to pay taxes on cryptocurrency, read the latest tax guides:
https://coinpanda.io/guides/crypto-taxes-france/
https://blockpit.io/en/tax-guides/tax-crypto-guide-france/
Pay your taxes, but don't feel like an idiot afterwards. Some tax rates are inadequate.

The problem to find a notary and a lawyer is not much of a hassle but the problem will be to find a customer who will be willing to accept crypto in order to sell the house. Usually, people will hesitate to receive payments in cryptocurrency as they believe that due to the highly volatile nature of crypto, the price may dump and causes an instant loss.

Secondly, these crypto transactions can only be executed publicly in a country where crypto is legal and the government has no objection to transacting publicly in cryptocurrencies.

As far as the tax is concerned, the parties will have to pay the taxes, either way, whether those choose fiat to execute this deal or use bitcoin/crypto.

Loss when the price of cryptocurrencies decreases is not the main reason. For example, I would sell real estate for cryptocurrency without any problems, because I don’t want to deal with banks, and a cash transaction is not safe.
But the seller of real estate has another problem in the form of a tax declaration of cryptocurrencies later. Money in a bank account from the sale of real estate should not be subject to additional taxes.
If anyone knows, tell me what is the tax deduction for the sale of real estate in France?