Who are the 1% of traders who earn with trading?

[as.exchange]

The only way to kbow you make a reasonable patient is when you wait till the market bullish is back and you are not selling at lost price but selling off quick to invest elsewhere is a habit of impatient and the 90% of traders with no sufficient portfolio management knowledge that make such decision are among the traders that later quit.
Meanwhile, it better to invest elsewhere using a new capital while you keep previous invest till it green again.

That's not the best decision either I think. It's like you invested @ $100, then it turns to $90, you want to keep waiting, then it turns to $80 - you wait, $70, $60, ... and @ $50 (for example) your position gets liquidated for instance. But you could sell @ $90 and keep the cash or invest elsewhere. Plus, there's time value of money here too.

As I mentioned somewhere here earlier a joke that "every bad trade ends up being a long-term investment".

[Ucy]

The only way to kbow you make a reasonable patient is when you wait till the market bullish is back and you are not selling at lost price but selling off quick to invest elsewhere is a habit of impatient and the 90% of traders with no sufficient portfolio management knowledge that make such decision are among the traders that later quit.
Meanwhile, it better to invest elsewhere using a new capital while you keep previous invest till it green again.

That's not the best decision either I think. It's like you invested @ $100, then it turns to $90, you want to keep waiting, then it turns to $80 - you wait, $70, $60, ... and @ $50 (for example) your position gets liquidated for instance. But you could sell @ $90 and keep the cash or invest elsewhere. Plus, there's time value of money here too.

As I mentioned somewhere here earlier a joke that "every bad trade ends up being a long-term investment".

I would simply invest the $100 long-term and forget about it... then use additional fund held in stablecoin for gradually buying dips/lows, and probably selling high. This method usually turns out profitable especially on established crypto like Bitcoin... And it's not that difficult to learn.

[stomachgrowls]

The only way to kbow you make a reasonable patient is when you wait till the market bullish is back and you are not selling at lost price but selling off quick to invest elsewhere is a habit of impatient and the 90% of traders with no sufficient portfolio management knowledge that make such decision are among the traders that later quit.
Meanwhile, it better to invest elsewhere using a new capital while you keep previous invest till it green again.

That's not the best decision either I think. It's like you invested @ $100, then it turns to $90, you want to keep waiting, then it turns to $80 - you wait, $70, $60, ... and @ $50 (for example) your position gets liquidated for instance. But you could sell @ $90 and keep the cash or invest elsewhere. Plus, there's time value of money here too.

As I mentioned somewhere here earlier a joke that "every bad trade ends up being a long-term investment".

I would simply invest the $100 long-term and forget about it... then use additional fund held in stablecoin for gradually buying dips/lows, and probably selling high. This method usually turns out profitable especially on established crypto like Bitcoin... And it's not that difficult to learn.

Its not that difficult to learn but it would really require some time for you to take grasp even on the most basic or simplest idea of it.You wont really be able to do this stuff if you dont have the slightest idea
on how its done.

I dont believe on that 1% traders are successful because we wont be seeing soo much liquidity into this market on daily basis if there are lots who do losses up in the market.

This might be only applicable on other markets when it comes to chances but not into this market.There are lots who do make money and of course loses are much more in quantity than to those
who do end up on making profits.

Important thing is that you do sustain yourself into this market in utilizing price movement for your profit making opportunity.

[posi]

The only way to kbow you make a reasonable patient is when you wait till the market bullish is back and you are not selling at lost price but selling off quick to invest elsewhere is a habit of impatient and the 90% of traders with no sufficient portfolio management knowledge that make such decision are among the traders that later quit.
Meanwhile, it better to invest elsewhere using a new capital while you keep previous invest till it green again.

That's not the best decision either I think. It's like you invested @ $100, then it turns to $90, you want to keep waiting, then it turns to $80 - you wait, $70, $60, ... and @ $50 (for example) your position gets liquidated for instance. But you could sell @ $90 and keep the cash or invest elsewhere. Plus, there's time value of money here too.

As I mentioned somewhere here earlier a joke that "every bad trade ends up being a long-term investment".

There is time value of money but if the coin is a well supported coin with good concept and utility there is no need to sell @$90 or $50. The best thing to do in this knd of the situation is to leave the investment and start a new one at the $50 price if have enough capital but if capital is an issue is better to sell @$90.

[molsewid]

I think these 1% of the trader are those who have a proper financial management, who knows the difference between their assets and liabilities, who can segregate savings from investment and those who do not afraid to take risk and willing to get rekt but they will move forward and will continue to learn even they failed sometimes, I admit there were times that I don't want to trade anymore I just want to continue working and save it not to invest anymore or trade anymore but then this is just a part of the process that I need to survive.

[as.exchange]

I would simply invest the $100 long-term and forget about it... then use additional fund held in stablecoin for gradually buying dips/lows, and probably selling high. This method usually turns out profitable especially on established crypto like Bitcoin... And it's not that difficult to learn.

Not difficult to learn, but hard to implement in reality. Typical example would be (I don't mean you, but the average trader) - you keep $100 for long-term, and have $100 for active trading ("gradually buying dips/lows, and probably selling high"). Then you put the second $100 into something, and price moves not how you expected. You sell (if smart, others will continue to keep - increasing the loss). Then you decide that it's time to re-enter and you are confident about that, so you take $20 from "long-term" because expect to earn $40 - enough to recover "long-term" fund + make money on active investment. Then you lose that also. Then with a strong desire to recover the "long-term" fund, you will take more risky and less reasonable bets thus magnifying your losses and faster depleting the overall fund.

Its not that difficult to learn but it would really require some time for you to take grasp even on the most basic or simplest idea of it.You wont really be able to do this stuff if you dont have the slightest idea
on how its done.

I dont believe on that 1% traders are successful because we wont be seeing soo much liquidity into this market on daily basis if there are lots who do losses up in the market.

This might be only applicable on other markets when it comes to chances but not into this market.There are lots who do make money and of course loses are much more in quantity than to those
who do end up on making profits.

Important thing is that you do sustain yourself into this market in utilizing price movement for your profit making opportunity.

True - not difficult to learn, but requires intelligence to implement correctly.

As for liquidity in the market - it's simply provided by market makers, and exchanges themselves on the coins they want to, that's why in most of the coins there's only minor liquidity. And you are correct - that research wasn't about crypto-trading, as the history of that is too short for now. But it was about all other markets. But I believe as the current crypto-traders are ex-FOREX, ex-stocks, etc. traders numbers won't be too different.

There is time value of money but if the coin is a well supported coin with good concept and utility there is no need to sell @$90 or $50. The best thing to do in this knd of the situation is to leave the investment and start a new one at the $50 price if have enough capital but if capital is an issue is better to sell @$90.

True - if you add time value of money, return will be way worse. However, most of the coins are without any utility or use - simply created for scamming people or for attracting traders. That's why it's gonna be hard to watch how the balance declines when the asset decline from $90 to $50, and you can't even sell that.

I think these 1% of the trader are those who have a proper financial management, who knows the difference between their assets and liabilities, who can segregate savings from investment and those who do not afraid to take risk and willing to get rekt but they will move forward and will continue to learn even they failed sometimes, I admit there were times that I don't want to trade anymore I just want to continue working and save it not to invest anymore or trade anymore but then this is just a part of the process that I need to survive.

Great point! Yes, financial management, risk management are some parts which most of the people forget about and think that simply learning chart patterns will make them rich And the motivation is of course a great part - losses are unavoidable in the market, but being able to keep going despite of that is a valuable personal character.

[Ucy]

[
I would simply invest the $100 long-term and forget about it... then use additional fund held in stablecoin for gradually buying dips/lows, and probably selling high. This method usually turns out profitable especially on established crypto like Bitcoin... And it's not that difficult to learn.

Its not that difficult to learn but it would really require some time for you to take grasp even on the most basic or simplest idea of it.You wont really be able to do this stuff if you dont have the slightest idea
on how its done.

I dont believe on that 1% traders are successful because we wont be seeing soo much liquidity into this market on daily basis if there are lots who do losses up in the market.

This might be only applicable on other markets when it comes to chances but not into this market.There are lots who do make money and of course loses are much more in quantity than to those
who do end up on making profits.

Important thing is that you do sustain yourself into this market in utilizing price movement for your profit making opportunity.

I think the 1%(or whatever percentage) should applied to traders who make consistent profits betting on the price of crypto... Or people with strategies that can be overall profitable when repeated multiple times.

[lixer]

There are some people who have been trading for decades, and there are some people who literally do this as a business outside of crypto as well as doing it in crypto. I have a friend who is in finance world, he was in finance world before he met crypto as well and he was earning a decent amount of money, it wasn't insanely high, but it was a pretty decent and a good income, more than double what I am earning right now.

Three years ago he got involved, got a bit of help from me even though not much, and after that he got into crypto and technical analysis and things like that. He got into crypto at around 10k back in the day and had 7 bitcoins, now bitcoin is over 20k and he has over 50 bitcoins. Dude was just good, he didn't became like this by studying after he met with crypto, he was already like this for 2 decades and just used that info on crypto.

[mersal]

There has been many research papers, and the statistics are mostly pretty sad:
•   100% of people start trading with the hope of getting rich
•   80% of all traders quit within the first two years
•   Among all traders, nearly 40% trade for only 1 month
•   Within 3 years, only 13% continue to trade
•   After 5 years, only 7% remain trading
•   The average individual investor underperforms a market index by 1.5% per year
•   Active traders underperform market by 6.5% annually
•   Only 1.6% of traders remain profitable net of fees in the long-run

Who are in your opinion these ∼1% of traders? Why they are able to remain profitable? Are you sure you are one of them, if you include taxes, fees, etc.?

If you ask why then the answer is profits made by a trader comes from the loss of another trader so if someone is in profitable for ling run means many traders helped him to make money with their losses so the one remain long while all other left in the meanwhile condition.

[Ucy]

I would simply invest the $100 long-term and forget about it... then use additional fund held in stablecoin for gradually buying dips/lows, and probably selling high. This method usually turns out profitable especially on established crypto like Bitcoin... And it's not that difficult to learn.

Not difficult to learn, but hard to implement in reality. Typical example would be (I don't mean you, but the average trader) - you keep $100 for long-term, and have $100 for active trading ("gradually buying dips/lows, and probably selling high"). Then you put the second $100 into something, and price moves not how you expected. You sell (if smart, others will continue to keep - increasing the loss). Then you decide that it's time to re-enter and you are confident about that, so you take $20 from "long-term" because expect to earn $40 - enough to recover "long-term" fund + make money on active investment. Then you lose that also. Then with a strong desire to recover the "long-term" fund, you will take more risky and less reasonable bets thus magnifying your losses and faster depleting the overall fund.

I prefer not to spend all the $100 for active trading at once. Will simply keep it ($100) in a stablecoin and probably use a small part of it (maybe $10-$50) on daily/weekly basis for buying significant dips. If price continues to dip significantly, I would continue buying. When it start moving up again, I will probably start selling some gradually. This (buying significant dips & selling significant highs) repeated many times can easily earn you significant profit every month.

[bearexin]

It’s not like everyone is steady cashing out from the market. Sometimes you’re among the 1% of those that are cashing out and sometimes you are not, it’s just knowledge and luck a lot of times.

But there are people who are making more profit , like 80% or so of the times they trade they are usually successful and these are people who have serious knowledge in trading. And as for the whales I think majority will be too busy to sit down and be trading, they are very busy businessmen, and what they do is to hire very smart people who have got the brains to do the work and at the end of the day they get their reports.

[as.exchange]

I think the 1%(or whatever percentage) should applied to traders who make consistent profits betting on the price of crypto... Or people with strategies that can be overall profitable when repeated multiple times.

Yes, me, and other members discussed that few times above also.

There are some people who have been trading for decades, and there are some people who literally do this as a business outside of crypto as well as doing it in crypto. I have a friend who is in finance world, he was in finance world before he met crypto as well and he was earning a decent amount of money, it wasn't insanely high, but it was a pretty decent and a good income, more than double what I am earning right now.

Three years ago he got involved, got a bit of help from me even though not much, and after that he got into crypto and technical analysis and things like that. He got into crypto at around 10k back in the day and had 7 bitcoins, now bitcoin is over 20k and he has over 50 bitcoins. Dude was just good, he didn't became like this by studying after he met with crypto, he was already like this for 2 decades and just used that info on crypto.

Wow, that is impressive! You can definitely get his insights on what he, from his opinion does different from other people who trade. There are people who also trade for 10+ years across different markets, but persistently make losses, but your friend appears to be among those top 1%.

If you ask why then the answer is profits made by a trader comes from the loss of another trader so if someone is in profitable for ling run means many traders helped him to make money with their losses so the one remain long while all other left in the meanwhile condition.

Yes, that's the reality. But why exactly that guy or girl would be benefiting on the expense of others for a long time, instead of another person?

I prefer not to spend all the $100 for active trading at once. Will simply keep it ($100) in a stablecoin and probably use a small part of it (maybe $10-$50) on daily/weekly basis for buying significant dips. If price continues to dip significantly, I would continue buying. When it start moving up again, I will probably start selling some gradually. This (buying significant dips & selling significant highs) repeated many times can easily earn you significant profit every month.

That's in theory, but in practice things work out differently as opposed to our expectations unfortunately. While being humans, we are mostly irrational, therefore, no matter of how long you trade - emotions always can take over your logical thinking (for example you traded for 30+ years and everything was good, then your pet died, you found out your wife was cheating with brother, some relative got lethal disease, bad weather, etc. and all in one day. The next trading day for sure is not gonna be same with the one before that. Furthermore, if that strategy would really yield significant returns, it would be discovered by many people by now and they all would become Warren Buffets probably.

It’s not like everyone is steady cashing out from the market. Sometimes you’re among the 1% of those that are cashing out and sometimes you are not, it’s just knowledge and luck a lot of times.

But there are people who are making more profit , like 80% or so of the times they trade they are usually successful and these are people who have serious knowledge in trading. And as for the whales I think majority will be too busy to sit down and be trading, they are very busy businessmen, and what they do is to hire very smart people who have got the brains to do the work and at the end of the day they get their reports.

Yes, but we are talking about the ones who persistently make profits in the market, not occasionally. But for the second part of your comment, you are absolutely right.

[palle11]

It’s not like everyone is steady cashing out from the market. Sometimes you’re among the 1% of those that are cashing out and sometimes you are not, it’s just knowledge and luck a lot of times.

This is the trade talk that newbies need to know that trade is not all 100% win. You win and you lose. You enter part of the 1% and improve more but maybe at time go down, either because lack of focus. A trader need a good management to always be in profit averagely than you are losing.

[mersal]

Snip~~

Yes, that's the reality. But why exactly that guy or girl would be benefiting on the expense of others for a long time, instead of another person?

Because they have more patience, right decisions whike trading, controlling their emotions better than others simply they are trading better than what most people performing so they are making more out of their efforts than others.

[iamsheikhadil]

It's very hard to say why and how they do it because if we knew, we would already have been one of them and wouldn't want to spill the secret but yeah, trading requires a LOT of patience along with good market, political, economical, geographical knowledge as well as psychology of consumers and government department incharges to be taken into account to make a very good prediction of any company before investing in them and make good profits. I guess that's why the number of successful traders are so low!

[as.exchange]

This is the trade talk that newbies need to know that trade is not all 100% win. You win and you lose. You enter part of the 1% and improve more but maybe at time go down, either because lack of focus. A trader need a good management to always be in profit averagely than you are losing.

True, you always will lose and win, but the 1% - the top ones are able to do win persistently. Not meaning they don't lose, but on average, with consideration of all expenses and fees, and loses, they remain profitable. While others might be thinking they are profitable, but if account for fees - they will see a different story.

Because they have more patience, right decisions whike trading, controlling their emotions better than others simply they are trading better than what most people performing so they are making more out of their efforts than others.

We are back to the point we all discussed like 2 pages ago in the tread If emotions are the issue - then isn't it better just to automate trading?

It's very hard to say why and how they do it because if we knew, we would already have been one of them and wouldn't want to spill the secret but yeah, trading requires a LOT of patience along with good market, political, economical, geographical knowledge as well as psychology of consumers and government department incharges to be taken into account to make a very good prediction of any company before investing in them and make good profits. I guess that's why the number of successful traders are so low!

Well yes, you are very correct. Once someone shares the real secret of success - everyone uses it and nobody earns anything from that onwards

[as.exchange]

Based on the discussion above I wonder how do you think guys:

1) Aren't there any of those 1.6% of top traders here on BitcoinTalk? Since I assumed they also would be replying and sharing their thoughts, but for now as we all see it's mostly assumptions of the rest - 98.4% of traders

2) How do you think, could that success be partially explained by the use of those traders of derivatives? Since it's known that derivatives do create significant returns at less risk, but the problem is that the majority of people even don't understand those derivatives, structured products, etc., so among the ones who do understand, a small group can benefit from that. Do you think this could be a reason?

[ultrloa]

It's very hard to say why and how they do it because if we knew, we would already have been one of them and wouldn't want to spill the secret but yeah, trading requires a LOT of patience along with good market, political, economical, geographical knowledge as well as psychology of consumers and government department incharges to be taken into account to make a very good prediction of any company before investing in them and make good profits. I guess that's why the number of successful traders are so low!

There's no secret with it since they do a lot of efforts and have a good dedication to learn with it for more many years that's why by now they can manage to take the risk and earn with it with proper discipline, there's a lot of video spill over the internet to learn from and we will not ask them for any secrete if we will just learn it for ourselves.

[konflikkastil]

When I went through your points, you have done a good research and I must comend you on that. When I started trading few years back. I was so enthusiast that I'm going to make really big. I have little or no experience all I had was an unending desire to start making it big time trading. That was my only mistake that you can't excel in what you don't know anything about. I made lot of mistakes in the first few months, the lost was much. I almost quit and I remember why I started in the first place. I had to go back to learn how to trade. After learning few things, even till now I'm still learning. And it has improved my trading skills

[boyptc]

Based on the discussion above I wonder how do you think guys:

1) Aren't there any of those 1.6% of top traders here on BitcoinTalk? Since I assumed they also would be replying and sharing their thoughts, but for now as we all see it's mostly assumptions of the rest - 98.4% of traders

For sure they are here, they could be at any rank of account but if they choose not to join the discussion. They want to remain silent and lowkey.

2) How do you think, could that success be partially explained by the use of those traders of derivatives? Since it's known that derivatives do create significant returns at less risk, but the problem is that the majority of people even don't understand those derivatives, structured products, etc., so among the ones who do understand, a small group can benefit from that. Do you think this could be a reason?

Probably it's because many are still not aware and lack knowledge about derivatives. And if there's someone who knows it, he won't share it unless someone asks for it.