A Single User With Multiple Accounts: Are There Reasons For Them Being Accepted?

[suchmoon]

I would say it wouldn’t be unreasonable if someone who has a sales thread uses their alt account to ask a frequently asked question so long as the question is answered quickly so not to result in two bumps that seriously affect where the thread is located.

Sockpuppeting as an excuse for shady shit makes zero sense outside of the account farming universe. If it breaks the rules (or is untrustworthy, etc) when done with one account, it still breaks the rules (or is untrustworthy, etc) when done with multiple accounts.

[LoyceV]

I would say it wouldn’t be unreasonable if someone who has a sales thread uses their alt account to ask a frequently asked question so long as the question is answered quickly so not to result in two bumps that seriously affect where the thread is located.

So:
LoyceMobile: Hey LoyceV, how much Forkcoin dust do I need to split my coins?
LoyceV: Thank you for your interest LoyceMobile, you only need to buy a very small amount.

That would violate this rule:

32. Posting multiple posts in a row (excluding bumps and reserved posts by the thread starter) is not allowed.

And it's just dumb If it's a FAQ, the answer could just be added to the OP.

That being said, I do sometimes post from my Mobile to notify my main account to check things.

[JollyGood]

IMO the best policy is to make everything transparent, and to make sure everyone involved is fully aware of the circumstances.

Then why are you still claiming you didn't lose the election?   If that's your true opinion, you are a hypocrite.

I just noticed you changed his user name in the reply you quoted from Quickseller to PrimeNumber7  

If the user isn't milking the forum for money the damage he cause is kind of acceptable.

However using multiple accounts without informing the public causes some other type of damage and it is not spamming.

Spam is the least of our problems here.

It is sockpuppeting.

If you have enough sockpuppets under your control, it is like having a media of your own. Like having an army of fake individuals. This is as dangerous as robbing the sig camps.

But if a person is determined enough, he/she can fool everyone else so it is pointless to try to fight this unless he/she makes huge mistakes and give signs. They sometimes do.

tldr; it is better to have one account per person but if they decide not to, you cannot do jackshit to counter it.

According to your post if the user is not milking the forum for money then the damage is kind of acceptable but where do signature campaigns fit in to this? Nobody can milk the forum (website) directly but they can milk the signature campaigns or farm accounts to show false escrow transactions and then try to run off with stolen funds.

What you said about having enough sock-puppets under your control is like having a media of your own - I agree with this and it is another down side of having multiple accounts because you can try to push forward your own agenda and where the negatives outweigh the positives.

we're going towards communism

Yup basically..


No alts in a sig camp accepted anonymously is a stupid rule because it’s unenforceable..
Breaching contracts is bad, but their gonna do it, and you’ll be chasing them forever..

Get rid of the rule.. It’s more fair anyway, if he can get 5 accounts in and you can’t even get one, he wins.. Completely fair..

Breaching contract though is untrustworthy..
You guys ever see the bait bike pranks on YouTube? Lol

Signature campaigns all have their own rules, those signing up cannot dictate to the campaign managers what the rules should be. They sign up on the basis they agree to the rules therefore saying a cheat who enrolls 5 user accounts to a signature campaign is completely fair is anything but fair, it is exactly the opposite. If the campaign manager says they welcome sock-puppets and alt-accounts then there is no problem whatsoever but breaching rules is not acceptable.

What alt accounts should not do is make posts in the same thread, giving the impression that there's a genuine conversation happening--that borders on spam, if you ask me, and I've caught people doing that in the past.  And frankly, as long as the person with multiple accounts is making reasonably good posts across the board, who cares?

Given that the forum treats alternate accounts as the same cryptographic identity and that the forum rules are applied to mentioned identities (e.g. bans, consecutive posts), I see no reason why talking to yourself (between two accounts) would not constitute as spam. Rather than write a single post that is edited with the content or rather than replying to other users, the individual is effectively inflating their posts and creating meaningless replies.

Of course, once you start getting into multi-user discussions, it's a more complicated issue: do we have 51% discussion attacks where the alts control the conversation, yet are not considered spammers or rule-breakers because there is enough of an external flow of replies? What's the threshold here?

A "51% discussion in threads" analogy is a perfect one to use under the circumstances. For duplicitous account operators who want to push out their agenda yet have no intention of entering signature campaigns, since the threshold can never be determined as it is down to individual opinion they too are rightly looked at with contempt.

[mindrust]

If the user isn't milking the forum for money the damage he cause is kind of acceptable.

However using multiple accounts without informing the public causes some other type of damage and it is not spamming.

Spam is the least of our problems here.

It is sockpuppeting.

If you have enough sockpuppets under your control, it is like having a media of your own. Like having an army of fake individuals. This is as dangerous as robbing the sig camps.

But if a person is determined enough, he/she can fool everyone else so it is pointless to try to fight this unless he/she makes huge mistakes and give signs. They sometimes do.

tldr; it is better to have one account per person but if they decide not to, you cannot do jackshit to counter it.

According to your post if the user is not milking the forum for money then the damage is kind of acceptable but where do signature campaigns fit in to this? Nobody can milk the forum (website) directly but they can milk the signature campaigns or farm accounts to show false escrow transactions and then try to run off with stolen funds.

What you said about having enough sock-puppets under your control is like having a media of your own - I agree with this and it is another down side of having multiple accounts because you can try to push forward your own agenda and where the negatives outweigh the positives.

"By milking the forum for money" I mean cheating the signature camps with multiple accounts.  That's the main damage they do because that is straight up stealing from the others.

If people fill the campaign spots with their alts, legit users that have only 1 account won't get accepted.

That's not a good thing no matter how you look. It is a direct financial damage.

The other one, "controlling the narrative" could cause indirect financial damages.

[actmyname]

"By milking the forum for money" I mean cheating the signature camps with multiple accounts.  That's the main damage they do because that is straight up stealing from the others.

If people fill the campaign spots with their alts, legit users that have only 1 account won't get accepted.

That's not a good thing no matter how you look. It is a direct financial damage.

We're going to punish people for prospective damage? What about people who have public alts instead of secret alts? Is it now suddenly not direct financial damage in your example of opportunity cost?

[JollyGood]

I do wonder what would happen to the forum with regards to the number of daily/weekly/monthly posts if the promoting, managing and participating in signature campaigns were banned. What other motives remain for users to have multiple accounts apart from trolling and chatting to their alts? Signature campaigns are a big draw here.

[Quickseller]

I would say it wouldn’t be unreasonable if someone who has a sales thread uses their alt account to ask a frequently asked question so long as the question is answered quickly so not to result in two bumps that seriously affect where the thread is located.

So:
LoyceMobile: Hey LoyceV, how much Forkcoin dust do I need to split my coins?
LoyceV: Thank you for your interest LoyceMobile, you only need to buy a very small amount.

That would violate this rule:

32. Posting multiple posts in a row (excluding bumps and reserved posts by the thread starter) is not allowed.

And it's just dumb If it's a FAQ, the answer could just be added to the OP.

That being said, I do sometimes post from my Mobile to notify my main account to check things.

You are correct, that is against the rules, but theymos does not enforce the rules that strictly. In your example, if the two posts were made 25 minutes apart, chances are the thread is not very far down on the 1st page, so it would not really be an extra 'bump'.

I am talking about a very small number of posts, not an ongoing conversation. Maybe 3 posts out of a thousand that someone makes. Is this something that is hurting anyone, or causing any real problems? The answer to this question is no. It might be a little tacky, but no one is getting hurt because of this.

[Kittygalore]

Even hilariousandco/etc joined 2 different signature campaigns. I don't see a problem with that, as long as it's not done in secret. And that secret part is the key: if you know what you're doing wouldn't be accepted if it came out, you shouldn't be doing it.

Isn't that unfair to the busted signature campaign farmers? Because they technically have the similarities with the users mentioned above. Most users in this forum frowns on the idea of multiple accounts which makes this farmers be ashamed of what they are doing but there are some users that are tolerated. So what @LoyceV is saying is that it is alright to have multiple accounts doing signature campaigns as long as the forum knows about it? I know that it sounds like I am fighting @LoyceV but I am just asking question because what I believed to be wrong is right for a select few.

[mindrust]

"By milking the forum for money" I mean cheating the signature camps with multiple accounts.  That's the main damage they do because that is straight up stealing from the others.

If people fill the campaign spots with their alts, legit users that have only 1 account won't get accepted.

That's not a good thing no matter how you look. It is a direct financial damage.

We're going to punish people for prospective damage? What about people who have public alts instead of secret alts? Is it now suddenly not direct financial damage in your example of opportunity cost?

I see no problem with public alts as long as they don't join multiple campaigns.

Secret alts can join multiple camps and pretend like they are different people as well.

Nobody is asking you to punish alt accounts btw. I think thats a job for the admins/mods. (if they are interested) Leaving a note on those accounts would be cool though.

[LoyceV]

So what @LoyceV is saying is that it is alright to have multiple accounts doing signature campaigns as long as the forum knows about it?

Isn't that obvious? If you take my car without my consent it's stealing, but if I tell you you can take it it's okay.
As long as a campaign manager knows about it, they can take an informed decision whether or not to accept your alt account.

[JollyGood]

I see no problem with public alts as long as they don't join multiple campaigns.

Secret alts can join multiple camps and pretend like they are different people as well.

Nobody is asking you to punish alt accounts btw. I think thats a job for the admins/mods. (if they are interested) Leaving a note on those accounts would be cool though.

This is a very liberal view and one I broadly agree with but when you say you have no problem with public alts as long as they do not join multiple campaigns - do you mean:

- using more than one account participating in the same signature campaign

or

- only one of their accounts should participate in a signature campaign and all their alts should have no signatures

[mindrust]

- only one of their accounts should participate in a signature campaign and all their alts should have no signatures

I mean this one.

Why would you join multiple campaigns and occupy someone else's spot? You already have your own spot. Doesn't sound right to me even if the campaign manager allows it, it is not right.

*I think that way because I believe sig camps are not jobs. It has nothing to do with communism or socialism. If sig camping was a job, then it would make sense to join as many camps as you can and post as many posts as you can, but it is not a job.

**Let everything aside it is impossible to produce all quality posts when you join multiple campaigns. Nobody can make me believe otherwise.

[JollyGood]

Thank you for explaining. There is a strong case for what you say and there is another case for those choosing/having multiple accounts not using the same campaign manager twice regardless of the number of accounts a user has. Another case being made is definitely not participating in the same campaign using multiple accounts.

There are 20 votes in the poll so far and every option has been voted for at least once. So much for consensus  

- only one of their accounts should participate in a signature campaign and all their alts should have no signatures

I mean this one.

Why would you join multiple campaigns and occupy someone else's spot? You already have your own spot. Doesn't sound right to me even if the campaign manager allows it, it is not right.

*I think that way because I believe sig camps are not jobs. It has nothing to do with communism or socialism. If sig camping was a job, then it would make sense to join as many camps as you can and post as many posts as you can, but it is not a job.

**Let everything aside it is impossible to produce all quality posts when you join multiple campaigns. Nobody can make me believe otherwise.

[Kittygalore]

~

Isn't that obvious? If you take my car without my consent it's stealing, but if I tell you you can take it it's okay.
As long as a campaign manager knows about it, they can take an informed decision whether or not to accept your alt account.

I don't think that it will be the case, if the manager knows that you are an alt account, there is a 100% chance that you are not going to be accepted in that campaign. Your analogy is good but we all know that in this forum, if you have a proven alt account then you are shunned for it. Exceptions include if you are in the club and you know the right users.

[LoyceV]

I don't think that it will be the case, if the manager knows that you are an alt account, there is a 100% chance that you are not going to be accepted in that campaign.

Why would it be a problem if the campaign manager doesn't allow you to join with more than one account? That doesn't justify cheating.

Your analogy is good but we all know that in this forum, if you have a proven alt account then you are shunned for it.

That's not true. Anyone can make an alt account, and nobody will hold that against you unless you do shady things.

Exceptions include if you are in the club and you know the right users.

Please name some examples of alt abusers who get away with it.

[Kittygalore]

~

Why would that be a problem?

Rules of some campaigns include that having an alt is unacceptable.

~

That's not true. Anyone can make an alt account, and nobody will hold that against you unless you do shady things.

Well, I don't see any threads that encourage and if someone is suspected, everyone goes in a witch hunt.

~

Please name some examples of alt abusers who get away with it.

@hilariousandco has an alt that is enrolled in a signature campaign as you have said in your previous reply that sparked this argument with me. I hope that you wouldn't mind that I am arguing with you. I wouldn't say that @hilariousandco is an abuser.

Even hilariousandco/etc joined 2 different signature campaigns. I don't see a problem with that, as long as it's not done in secret. And that secret part is the key: if you know what you're doing wouldn't be accepted if it came out, you shouldn't be doing it.

[JollyGood]

Sorry even though the post from LoyceV already mentioned it, I feel I should make a similar comment too. If the campaign manager knows the person signing up is an alt and then decided to not accept them, that is the choice of the campaign manager and no amount of lying and cheating can justify enrolling multiple accounts for the sake of cheating.

Can you elaborate on which club you are referring to and who those right users are?

Isn't that obvious? If you take my car without my consent it's stealing, but if I tell you you can take it it's okay.
As long as a campaign manager knows about it, they can take an informed decision whether or not to accept your alt account.

I don't think that it will be the case, if the manager knows that you are an alt account, there is a 100% chance that you are not going to be accepted in that campaign. Your analogy is good but we all know that in this forum, if you have a proven alt account then you are shunned for it. Exceptions include if you are in the club and you know the right users.

[zanezane]

Nothing wrong with it as long as you don't enroll them on a signature with the intent to abuse the campaign and farm. I would say that having an multiple account is only acceptable at the range of two account per person, anything beyond that is unacceptable. Two accounts because you can use the other as a throwaway account for your radical and often flag worthy comments so you don't have a problem with your main account being persecuted.

[LoyceV]

I would say that having an multiple account is only acceptable at the range of two account per person

Let's see: LoyceV, LoyceBot, LoyceMobile, LoyceBot2, nukebot and of course there can be other reasons to create an account.

Two accounts because you can use the other as a throwaway account for your radical and often flag worthy comments so you don't have a problem with your main account being persecuted.

If your alt account deserves a Flag, your main account deserves it too. But "radical" comments are not Flag worthy:

The system is for handling trade risk, not for flagging people for good/bad posts/personalities/ideas

[TeslaMotors]

I think that the higher the rank and the longer the seniority, the higher the chance that someone has more than one account. But why should it be bad ? This is not a public directory