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Author Topic: Open Transactions Server: Asset/Bond/Commodity/Cryptocoin/Deed/Share/Stock Exch.  (Read 18850 times)
becoin
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January 26, 2012, 04:54:27 PM
 #61

But what is actually blinded?
This is not clear to me. In the original Chaum's paper the analogy to voting through carbon paper envelops is counter intuitive. What if the trustee is signing on empty envelop? Nick Szabo compares blind signature with signing blank checks but this is even worse for it leads to even greater confusion...

I guess the closest real life comparison can be made with travelers checks. You have the issuer, serial number, face value and the signature of the bearer but you can't know how many hands the check changed since the time it was issued.

There remains the question with AML regulations. Nothing prevents financial authorities in the respective country to ask you change the OT server code so that all transaction, say above $500 be declined if done through server 'cash mode'?!

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January 26, 2012, 06:13:13 PM
 #62

But what is actually blinded?
This is not clear to me. In the original Chaum's paper the analogy to voting through carbon paper envelops is counter intuitive. What if the trustee is signing on empty envelop? Nick Szabo compares blind signature with signing blank checks but this is even worse for it leads to even greater confusion...

Actually I think it is a good analogy. My question is more about which fields of the transaction are hidden inside the envelop and which are visible.

There remains the question with AML regulations. Nothing prevents financial authorities in the respective country to ask you change the OT server code so that all transaction, say above $500 be declined if done through server 'cash mode'?!

Being the communication outside of the protocol, the server can just use, for example, Tor and dodge all regulations. Not so great for the users who want to be able to sue the minter (provided he's certificated somehow), but useful for other users.
Potential regulations can always hurt, but that's not a reason for not developing or using a technology that's not regulated yet.

2 different forms of free-money: Freicoin (free of basic interest because it's perishable), Mutual credit (no interest because it's abundant)
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January 26, 2012, 09:41:08 PM
 #63

Quote
There remains the question with AML regulations. Nothing prevents financial authorities in the respective country to ask you change the OT server code so that all transaction, say above $500 be declined if done through server 'cash mode'?!

Huh? Doesn't work like that. Begin reading here ... https://github.com/FellowTraveler/Open-Transactions/wiki

Look at the pictures here

http://billstclair.com/ot/ot-diagram.jpg

and here

http://billstclair.com/ot/OT-Anon-CashOnly.jpg

It is specifically designed to work around overzealous financial regulations of repressive regimes that are currently strangling the global economy ...  or maybe stick to the facebook credits koolaid if that is all a little too edgy for you?

AML/KYC 'laws' are a grasping, rear-guard action from a failed, dying economic model, centralised digital money system and the corrupted political system built upon it.

Monetary Freedom - a basic human right
"Disarming money as a tool for tyranny."
"Disintermediating the State."
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January 27, 2012, 12:07:50 AM
 #64

Our currencies are working nicely now, so I am starting to work on companies.

There are a couple of technical details I need to check, but here is the sample stock/share contract I have so far:

Code:
<?xml version="1.0"?>
<digitalAssetContract version="1.0">

<entity shortname="GFCstock"
longname="General Financial Corp stock"
email="markmetson@sourceforge.net"/>

<issue company="General Financial Corp"
email="GFCstock@MI5ius.M5"
contractUrl="http://contracts.MI5ius.M5/GFCstock.contract"
type="share"/>

<currency name="GFCstock" tla="sGFC" symbol="sGFC"
type="decimal" factor="1" decimal_power="0" fraction=""/>

<!-- CONDITIONS -->

<condition name="backing">
  General Financial Corp stock is backed by the assets,
  activities, bylaws, goodwill etcetera of the actual
  Corp, which is registered as a limited liability
  company by the administration of and under the laws
  of the Martians of the planet known as M5. Its offices
  on that planet are located in the city known as MI5ius.
  The company also operates under the name Galactic
  Financial Corp.
</condition>

<condition name="audit">
  General Financial Corp stock is primarily secured by
  the assets of the Corp and, where the Corp operates
  legally under local laws of various civilisations,
  of course by such provisions as local civilisations
  might have regarding ownership of property, defense
  of property and so on. Where what passes for or
  pretends to be local civilisation fails to provide
  such protections, General Financial Corp takes such
  measures itself as it deems prudent under the
  prevailing conditions and circumstances.
</condition>

<condition name="purchase">
  In order to obtain General Financial Corp stock you
  must utilise an Open Transactions server supporting
  the use of said asset.
</condition>

<condition name="redemption">
  Redemption implies failure of the Corp, inasmuch as
  stock is not normally considered a redeemable asset
  but, rather, a tradeable asset. Redemption in the
  event of the failure of the Corp would presumably be
  administrated by the bankruptcy departments of the
  regions in which the company still has any assets
  at the time of the failure / bankruptcy.
</condition>

<condition name="rate">
  It is not yet contemplated that this will be
  dividend-paying stock, thus no rate of payment,
  calculation or release of dividends applies.
</condition>

<condition name="buyback">
  The Issuer reserves the right to buy back all
  outstanding stock, thereby terminating the use of
  this instrument.
</condition>

<condition name="liability">
  The Corp is not liable for any damages use of
  this contract with your software or on your
  computing equiment might cause, nor for any
  loss or inconvenience you might experience due
  to the performance of stock markets, trading
  platforms, brokers, or acts of man woman child
  god or natural force(s) or events. In any event
  liability is limited to the terms and conditions
  specified in this contract.
</condition>

<condition name="mint">
  Float - the total quantity of General Financial
  Corp stock outstanding - is created by a Mint
  account, specially set by the Operator.

  Disbursements from the Mint account are to be made
  on receipt of duly signed and public authorization
  from MI5ius.  All disbursements from the Mint
  account are to be made to the single Currency
  Comptroller account identified by the authorization.

  From time to time, the Currency Comptroller may
  direct the Currency Manager to return General
  Financial Corp stock to the Mint for the express
  purpose of reducing the float. Such directions
  should be ignored; stock, once issued, remains
  in existence until and unless the entire issue
  is disolved, which itself is also not contemplated.

  This issue of stock consists of 100,000 (One
  Hundred Thousand) individual integer units of
  stock, no more and no less. Any not in the
  possession of an entity other than the Corp
  are implicitly and explicitly in the possession
  of the Corp.
</condition>

<condition name="privacy">
  The purchase and trading of General Financial Corp
  stock normally are done on the basis of strong
  privacy. By purchasing or trading this stock you
  agree that your purchase, trading, use, ownership,
  possession and material interest in this stock are
  governed by the laws and customs of the city of
  MI5ius on the planet known as M5 and that such laws
  and customs overrule any local laws or customs any
  civilisation, purported civilisation, government,
  barbarian horde, gang of thieves, outlaws, bandits,
  lawyers, politicians, pirates, thugs, muggers,
  cutthroats, militia, military, police, babysitter,
  parent, nanny or other entity might pretend,
  claim, or promulgate.
</condition>

<!-- KEYS -->

<key name="contract">
- -----BEGIN CERTIFICATE-----
***CERTIFICATE OF ISSUING NYM WILL GO HERE***
- -----END CERTIFICATE-----
</key>

</digitalAssetContract>

By the way, does anyone here have i2p running? I do, so it would be nice to find someone who can test the theory that the server can be connected to via i2p. TO do that you would use your hosts file to make your machine think ot.knotwork.com is localhost, and put a tunnel at the server port number that tunnels over i2p to my server's i2p key/hash/address. (Which I can provide in Private Message if someone actually has i2p and wants to try this.)

-MarkM-

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January 27, 2012, 08:53:37 AM
 #65

Huh? Doesn't work like that.
It doesn't matter how OT server is designed to work. All that matters is how it will have to work in the real world as a financial services provider.

AML/KYC 'laws' are a grasping, rear-guard action from a failed, dying economic model, centralised digital money system and the corrupted political system built upon it.
As user you can run and hide but as an issuer/custodian/legal guardian of the backing/physical asset you can not for you're "anchored" to the world you've just described. You have to obey the laws whatever they are in the country your company is residing and there is no much room for discussion here.

My point is not to discourage you, on the contrary. I'm actively working to setup a service based on OT. Simply can't afford to bury my head in the sand...

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January 27, 2012, 09:57:17 AM
 #66

I hope you warn children in your area to avoid playing Monopoly, and in particular if they cannot avoid playing it to at least not get stuck with the position of banker. How long would they get in juvie for doing something like that in your jurisdiction?

Seriously its hard to plan a good game these days, ouch I found a magic sword, someone sold one like that on e-bay, how much tax am I liable for just for having had this one fall into my possession?

Okay maybe I need some "market makers" who will take people's monopoly, totopoly, mine-a-million or any other kind of money in return for my server's tokens, and of "redeeming" my tokens with whatever kind of monopoly totopoly, mine-a-million or any other kind of money when people want to take their remaining not-lost-to-other-players virtual collectable trading cards / tokens and go home.

Isn't the whole point of those collectable trading cards people use to play magic gatherings and pokemon and so on that they are someday valuables like some other generation's baseball cards but meanwhile used in games in which winners keep the cards of losers? How do such games get around all this crap? Or does the small print actually prohibit trading such trading cards?

Maybe I need smallprint saying "do not engage in trading any of our tokens that represent collectable blockchain transactions that happen to be legally classified as 'real money' in your jurisdiction"?

Heck what about marbles? Like collectable trading cards they too are designed to be won from other players and yet someday maybe not even by later generations be regarded as valuables? Is playing marbles also not allowed?

Is World of Warcraft a financial service? Dungeons and Dragons Online? Second Life? EVE online? Etc?

Are the big game companies now ganging up like the banks to try to create a monopoly on their lucrative business model by having it regulated?

This is really pathetic, maybe kids should be warned that games are serious business, not for minors to contemplate participating in, too dangerous to get involved in, they should just say no to playtime...

-MarkM-

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January 27, 2012, 10:08:21 AM
 #67

This is really pathetic, maybe kids should be warned that games are serious business
Mark, you have to obey the laws and financial regulations or you have to be ready to prove in the court of law that what you're offering is not a financial service. It is simple as that.

I'm ready to discuss how to change OT so that it does not resemble financial service but a game.

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January 27, 2012, 10:15:51 AM
 #68

This is really pathetic, maybe kids should be warned that games are serious business
Mark, you have to obey the laws and financial regulations or you have to be ready to prove in the court of law that what you're offering is not a financial service. It is simple as that.

I'm ready to discuss how to change OT so that it does not resemble financial service but a game.

Yes, please.

Mark Twain's generation had marbles, some other generation had baseball cards, another had pokemon and "Magic, the Gathering" cards, now we have blockchains. Seems pretty simple, every generation has its plaything that later might become a valuable antique or collectable... Its actually pretty much a tradition, a part of {|western} culture...

-MarkM-

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January 27, 2012, 10:36:38 AM
 #69

Yes, please.
Okay, please give me a day or two to write down some text. I shall PM fellowtraveler my suggestion and if he decides we can publish it. Yes, I have been considering the "marble" option for quite some time and it'll be something along those lines.  Smiley

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January 27, 2012, 01:09:58 PM
 #70

Yes, please.
Okay, please give me a day or two to write down some text. I shall PM fellowtraveler my suggestion and if he decides we can publish it. Yes, I have been considering the "marble" option for quite some time and it'll be something along those lines.  Smiley

I don't see the point of this. If you want to be able to sue the minter, yes it has to be in a country where this is legal.
If it's not legal, you don't have to camouflage it under games: just keep the minter anonymous (pseudonymous) and rely on reputation.

2 different forms of free-money: Freicoin (free of basic interest because it's perishable), Mutual credit (no interest because it's abundant)
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January 27, 2012, 01:18:39 PM
 #71

It might not only be about the minter.

Some jurisdictions might hold the server / server-operator responsible even if all they do is provide accounting of balances for abstract tokens they have no knowledge of the value or lack of value of in whatever markets people might seek value in such tokens at.

You can go on to suggest the server also be cloaked behind some "anonymity network" but in all seriousness I am not very confident that "MI-5/MI-6" and/or FBI/CIA could not track down such a server if they actually were given a mandate/order to do so.

(This is actually part of why the Martians are implicated; the take-away concept of that is that this is a military intelligence matter not some stupid civil law crap. Martian as in Martial. MI5ius as in MI-5.)

-MarkM- (A Brit, residing in Canada.)

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January 27, 2012, 04:08:33 PM
 #72

I don't see the point of this. If you want to be able to sue the minter, yes it has to be in a country where this is legal.
There is no country where there is no limits imposed on payments in cash!

If it's not legal, you don't have to camouflage it under games: just keep the minter anonymous (pseudonymous) and rely on reputation.
There is no way to keep minters anonymous. Minters have to issue digital assets and sign contracts where those digital assets are backed by physical assets. Reputation and anonymity are two words that don't go well together. Nobody will trust anonymous minter.

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January 27, 2012, 04:49:33 PM
 #73

Watching.

BTC: 1CDCLDBHbAzHyYUkk1wYHPYmrtDZNhk8zf
LTC: LMS7SqZJnqzxo76iDSEua33WCyYZdjaQoE
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January 27, 2012, 05:42:07 PM
 #74

There is no way to keep minters anonymous. Minters have to issue digital assets and sign contracts where those digital assets are backed by physical assets. Reputation and anonymity are two words that don't go well together. Nobody will trust anonymous minter.

I am not currently inclined to allow others to mint (to issue tokens) on my server, as my reputation would be besmirched should some minter turn out to be a scammer or somesuch. The server allows that feature to be disabled for all "nyms" other than a special over-ride nym (basically the "server-owner nym") to whom none of the configurable restrictions apply. Thus I keep issuing turned off until I need to create an issuer account then plug in for a moment the nym that is to do the issuing, create the issue account, then put back the server-owner nym. This leaves no window during which arbitrary nyms could create an issuing account.

I figure it would make more sense to use "market makers" that to allow others to be "issuers". For example if you wanted me to run a digital gold token for you, I would want you to deposit with me the gold to back them with then go about your business of selling, buying and trading the tokens, hopefully seldom or never to need the actual gold to get bailed back out of whatever vault service I end up storing it in.

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January 27, 2012, 06:09:55 PM
 #75

I don't see the point of this. If you want to be able to sue the minter, yes it has to be in a country where this is legal.
There is no country where there is no limits imposed on payments in cash!

These are cash-like IOUs, not cash. Try to pay your taxes or a fine with them.

If it's not legal, you don't have to camouflage it under games: just keep the minter anonymous (pseudonymous) and rely on reputation.
There is no way to keep minters anonymous. Minters have to issue digital assets and sign contracts where those digital assets are backed by physical assets. Reputation and anonymity are two words that don't go well together. Nobody will trust anonymous minter.

The contract could say "I owe you in bitcoins the same amount you have in OT tokens. Signed: anonymous guy". There's no technical impediment.

Who would accept such IOUs?
Once again, reputation. People are paying up front to merchants they don't know at silkroad. Can all the people who has deposits at mtgox effectively sue the company from their jurisdiction? What if contract is signed with the private key of a bitcoin address that satoshi can proof is his address?
Legal contracts make the need for trust lower, but just that. It doesn't matter that you have a contract with your bank, you still have to trust them. In the end it's all about trust. And anonymous entities can obtain trust through reputation.


2 different forms of free-money: Freicoin (free of basic interest because it's perishable), Mutual credit (no interest because it's abundant)
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January 27, 2012, 06:13:40 PM
 #76

I am not currently inclined to allow others to mint (to issue tokens) on my server, as my reputation would be besmirched should some minter turn out to be a scammer or somesuch.
OT servers do not need to have good reputation. They don't need to be trusted by the users and are disposable. But minters absolutely need to be reputable and transparent in how they handle the actual physical backing.

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January 27, 2012, 06:21:48 PM
 #77

These are cash-like IOUs, not cash. Try to pay your taxes or a fine with them.
I don't understand what are you trying to say if this is an argument. Argument to what? That you don't need to obey the law if you pay in cash above the limit that is allowed?

The contract could say "I owe you in bitcoins the same amount you have in OT tokens. Signed: anonymous guy". There's no technical impediment.
There is no technical impediment but there is a legal question - what can I do to defend my interest if the signed "anonymous guy" does not honor their contract? How do I sue them if they are anonymous?

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January 27, 2012, 06:37:55 PM
 #78

I am not an OT server, my OT server is a software application I run on a hardware platform.

I don't really care about its reputation so much as my own. I am not, however convinced that having it rip people off, especially if the proceeds of its doing so accrue to me, would be without effect upon my own reputation.

Whether my server is disposable or not, I am not inclined to regard myself nor my own reputation as disposable.

As to how you defend your interest if "anonymous guy, possibly Martian, who styles him her or its self as some kind of currency or corp" does not honour their contract, well, I put it to you that it might well be because of such concerns that the British and the Canadians chose to ally themselves with the Martians rather than, for example, declare war upon them.

You are free to go to war against the Martians and/or their allies (such as, but not limited to, the British, Canadians, and, if the Martian stories about where their blockchain technology really came from are true, even the Hackers), using the full resources of whatever nation or nations you control within the Galactic Milieu, or to petition those who do rule such nations as characters of yours within the milieu are citizens of to extend sanctions or go to war. It is in the nature of the game that escalation of hostility can and sometimes probably has led to war. Ce la jeux.

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January 27, 2012, 06:54:57 PM
 #79

I don't understand what are you trying to say if this is an argument. Argument to what? That you don't need to obey the law if you pay in cash above the limit that is allowed?

The tokens can represent carrots, gold, bitcoins, cash, hours or whatever it's more or less fungible.
You don't have to worry about laws about moving cash when you're not moving cash. And this is not cash.
These are cryptographically certified IOUs, but not legal tender. It's a debt from one party to another, even if the debtor (minter) doesn't know who the creditor (the owner of the untraceable "cash") is.

There is no technical impediment but there is a legal question - what can I do to defend my interest if the signed "anonymous guy" does not honor their contract?

Nothing. You're screwed like a "my bitcoin" customer.
But you accepted that risk in the first place.

How do I sue them if they are anonymous?

You can't. You only know the minter by its pseudonymous. That's not enough to take someone to the courts.

How can you do if you pay for 50 btc for a bag full of pills at silkroad and it doesn't arrive to your home?
Well, issue a negative vote. Just that.

2 different forms of free-money: Freicoin (free of basic interest because it's perishable), Mutual credit (no interest because it's abundant)
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January 27, 2012, 06:57:26 PM
 #80

I am not an OT server, my OT server is a software application I run on a hardware platform.
I think your OT server is just a Martian proxy.
Guys, what do you smoke today?

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