ESports betting -CS:GO, DOTA 2, LOL, Valorant - discussion thread

[passwordnow]

I think that Tundra isn't motivated by the fact that 33 said something about how low the prize pool for the EWC. Although this isn't EWC but you can see from those words if they're motivated or not. Parivision is consistent and that's what I like with them, no matter what the tournament is, they always play good.

Motivation is not, and should not be an issue here. Tundra is simply out of shape. And the most logical explanation to me is, they took a break from practice, and maybe even pubs, and are now using DreamLeague as a glorified bootcamp. Remember they also bombed out from that 1win tier 2 tournament, losing to tier 2 teams. Since they have been already qualified for EWC for the last almost 4 months, they could afford to take a break, to get to most important stage of the season fresh. If EWC prizepool is a motivational issue, then might as well just retire. It's not going to get better.

Also, the prizepool for EWC has been known for a while now.

I think one factor when they have took a break was when pure can't play and due to visa issue. But they're now back and decided not to play if they are not complete and that's a good standing together as a team. And even 33 said those words, it can't change the fact that this is a big tournament that's coming.

I agree, it's still a huge prize money to be honest. But it seems that 33 just found it not that much this time when it's par with the other majors. He's used to how huge it was before.

Wdym by before? If by before you mean DPC days, remember 33 was only relevant during the second to last DPC season when he won his first TI, where the prizepool was already heavily declining. Also, the prizepools for the DPC majors were 500k, and were only 3 per year. Right now there are 11 tournaments with 1M prizepool per year, excluding TI and EWC. If by before you mean before even DPC or his TI winning Tundra team, remember he was failing to qualify to majors and often collecting last places when qualifying.

None of those, what I'm telling was about the EWC 2025 where the prize pool was $3M and the champ will get $1M. But you're right that most of the tournaments that he's won with the team were like those prizes.

Panto joined MOUZ.

A lot of bad impression I've read about panto through his co-pro players. They're not satisfied with him but mouz getting him is a loan from Spirit.

[T1HGO]

I think that Tundra isn't motivated by the fact that 33 said something about how low the prize pool for the EWC. Although this isn't EWC but you can see from those words if they're motivated or not. Parivision is consistent and that's what I like with them, no matter what the tournament is, they always play good.

Motivation is not, and should not be an issue here. Tundra is simply out of shape. And the most logical explanation to me is, they took a break from practice, and maybe even pubs, and are now using DreamLeague as a glorified bootcamp. Remember they also bombed out from that 1win tier 2 tournament, losing to tier 2 teams. Since they have been already qualified for EWC for the last almost 4 months, they could afford to take a break, to get to most important stage of the season fresh. If EWC prizepool is a motivational issue, then might as well just retire. It's not going to get better.

Also, the prizepool for EWC has been known for a while now.

I think one factor when they have took a break was when pure can't play and due to visa issue. But they're now back and decided not to play if they are not complete and that's a good standing together as a team. And even 33 said those words, it can't change the fact that this is a big tournament that's coming.

I agree, it's still a huge prize money to be honest. But it seems that 33 just found it not that much this time when it's par with the other majors. He's used to how huge it was before.

Wdym by before? If by before you mean DPC days, remember 33 was only relevant during the second to last DPC season when he won his first TI, where the prizepool was already heavily declining. Also, the prizepools for the DPC majors were 500k, and were only 3 per year. Right now there are 11 tournaments with 1M prizepool per year, excluding TI and EWC. If by before you mean before even DPC or his TI winning Tundra team, remember he was failing to qualify to majors and often collecting last places when qualifying.

None of those, what I'm telling was about the EWC 2025 where the prize pool was $3M and the champ will get $1M. But you're right that most of the tournaments that he's won with the team were like those prizes.

Panto joined MOUZ.

A lot of bad impression I've read about panto through his co-pro players. They're not satisfied with him but mouz getting him is a loan from Spirit.

Well, since we've been discussing Tundra...

Leakers are saying Tundra will disband as an org. According to the leaks, current Tundra players will be joining 1win.

They just don't know when. If before TI or after.

[arallmuus]

Leakers are saying Tundra will disband as an org. According to the leaks, current Tundra players will be joining 1win.

Wait what this is so sudden. We had Heroic that disbanded few weeks ago and now Tundra. Heroic is kinda acceptable since they havent been doing that good in dota2 scene but Tundra on the other hand has been doing pretty decent actually. Its so weird that they are disbanding soon

They just don't know when. If before TI or after.

TI is like 3 months or even less and before TI there is EWC as well. I mean if they want to disband then it should be done before all those major events but on the other hand, they could just stick for the next 3 months until everything is over. They perhaps might win some major tournament along the way

[passwordnow]

Well, since we've been discussing Tundra...

Leakers are saying Tundra will disband as an org. According to the leaks, current Tundra players will be joining 1win.

They just don't know when. If before TI or after.

Yeah, I've also read about that but let's wait for the final and official announcement of Tundra. It's sad to see that there are more teams leaving the dota 2 pro scene than the ones who are coming. While it's nice to have these orgs who are willing to adopt their roster like 1win. The cost of maintaining a team is so expensive these days and that's why we see them leave. Looks like the next generation of organizations are going to be the casinos and that's fine, maybe stake will also have its team as well soon or not since they're already popular.

[arallmuus]

The cost of maintaining a team is so expensive these days and that's why we see them leave.

Yeah but at the same time they should be generating decent revenue as well. Probably not that much or breakeven atleast but this season we had alot of tournaments with decent prizepool so team like Tundra that generally finish on average top 5 would probably got decent amount from the prizepool

Looks like the next generation of organizations are going to be the casinos and that's fine, maybe stake will also have its team as well soon or not since they're already popular.

Well I kinda doubt it. Most casino would only sponsor cs2 because crowd are much higher compared to dota2 and aside from that it seems cs2 is alot more welcome when it comes to betting unlike dota2 that limits gambling sponsorship on top tier events like The International

[passwordnow]

The cost of maintaining a team is so expensive these days and that's why we see them leave.

Yeah but at the same time they should be generating decent revenue as well. Probably not that much or breakeven atleast but this season we had alot of tournaments with decent prizepool so team like Tundra that generally finish on average top 5 would probably got decent amount from the prizepool

I guess most likely breakeven or loss is what's happening to most of them. We see big organizations left due to financial constraints and it's mentioned in the latest for Heroic. So even with decent prize pools for the recent tournaments and some allocation of the prize pool is specific to the organization, that's still not enough for them I think and so the rumor might be true of them leaving the scene.

Looks like the next generation of organizations are going to be the casinos and that's fine, maybe stake will also have its team as well soon or not since they're already popular.

Well I kinda doubt it. Most casino would only sponsor cs2 because crowd are much higher compared to dota2 and aside from that it seems cs2 is alot more welcome when it comes to betting unlike dota2 that limits gambling sponsorship on top tier events like The International

There's playtime, 1win and we see the tags on the team names of the players, betboom, parivision, etc. I think you're right, I remember that when there's this time that Valve have to ban those ads with casinos on names of the player. But I think that they won't tackle that anymore as it's welcoming more teams and fans to catch up with that to support the organizations unless Valve does a thing to centralized the salaries of players and commissions share to the orgs.

[T1HGO]

While it is true that CS2 right now, and for the past 3 years, let's be honest, is much more popular than Dota. However, Dota definitely still has the potential to reach CS2's level or higher. Let's not forget how massive Dota was before covid, from TI3-TI9. Something changed after that and for the worse, especially since the end of DPC.

But if Valve doesn't want to support Dota financially anymore, by organazing things like DPC or Majors or even TI, they need to let at least Dota to be self-sustainable.

Back in the day, like 2014-2016, Dota had a very sustainable circuit in place. The tournaments were crowd-funded, with compendiums and exclusive skins, for example Evil Geniuses couriers, SingSing's Mirana skin, Stickers, player cards and things of that nature. And that shit sells. Alot. Look up DAC 2015. It had 3M prizepool. It was crowdfunded. And alot more tournaments were like that. Like beyond the summit tournaments, Epicenters etc.

Not to mention that items in Dota, were sellable, and tradeable. Much like CS2 nowadays, where gun skins are sellable, and there's stickers that alone are enough to pay org expenses. Dota once had that system too. But for some reason, Valve had other plans for Dota. It's true that Valve put alot of money into Dota. 3 3M dollar majors per year, TI's with 40M dollar prizepools. Sure. But now that Valve turned off the faucet, they need to let the game self-sustain again.

Just put the current monetization system in CS2 into Dota, and Dota will be fine.

[boltz]

Rumors are that Team Tundra will disband after this DreamLeague and they will rebrand themselves under the 1win banner so this means 33 and his squad will be under a different team name on both EWC and TI.

Also , since xiao8 left Tundra after being accused so many times of doing 322 and rigged games just to find out from a reddit post that Ame is being investigated in Russia for doing 322 games ...and these two news together are enough for me to stay away for life from China region and all their gaming teams. I simply had enough to watch XG doing suspect games and always being accused of 322 games from different persons or ex pro players...

[T1HGO]

Also , since xiao8 left Tundra after being accused so many times of doing 322 and rigged games just to find out from a reddit post that Ame is being investigated in Russia for doing 322 games ...and these two news together are enough for me to stay away for life from China region and all their gaming teams. I simply had enough to watch XG doing suspect games and always being accused of 322 games from different persons or ex pro players...

Pardon my french but, what a whole lot of nothing you just typed.

Let's get things straight. The whole xiao8 story was created by angry chinese fans for the loss of PSG.LGD against Team Spirit in TI10 grand finals. Back then, they chinese community targeted xiao8 for the loss, because xiao8 didn't ban Collapse's Magnus. That's it. It has 0 substance. I won't go much indepth about drafts, but just to say, PSG.LGD beat Collapse's Magnus in Game 4 of that grand final.

About Ame being investigated in russia for 322... lol dude. Source? Or are you telling me you drew that conclusion because Illidan said Ame is matchfixing because he rage GG'd early against Nigma Galaxy?
https://hawk.live/posts/illidan-hints-322-ame

[ralle14]

Rumors are that Team Tundra will disband after this DreamLeague and they will rebrand themselves under the 1win banner so this means 33 and his squad will be under a different team name on both EWC and TI.

Also , since xiao8 left Tundra after being accused so many times of doing 322 and rigged games just to find out from a reddit post that Ame is being investigated in Russia for doing 322 games ...and these two news together are enough for me to stay away for life from China region and all their gaming teams. I simply had enough to watch XG doing suspect games and always being accused of 322 games from different persons or ex pro players...

I also saw that rumor spreading the other day and I can't believe another big team is potentially stepping down, but it makes sense if the prize pool of the bigger tournament keeps getting reduced every year. I guess the rumor about Blast taking a step back might also come true, and I can't blame them for leaving since the Dota scene has been like a sinking ship after Valve left it in the hands of third party organizers.
 
As for the throwing accusation, it's hard to tell when he's one of the players who would still keep competing without getting paid and at this point, there's too much for them to lose now that they've qualified for EWC.

[rdbase]

While it is true that CS2 right now, and for the past 3 years, let's be honest, is much more popular than Dota. However, Dota definitely still has the potential to reach CS2's level or higher. Let's not forget how massive Dota was before covid, from TI3-TI9. Something changed after that and for the worse, especially since the end of DPC.

But if Valve doesn't want to support Dota financially anymore, by organazing things like DPC or Majors or even TI, they need to let at least Dota to be self-sustainable.

Back in the day, like 2014-2016, Dota had a very sustainable circuit in place. The tournaments were crowd-funded, with compendiums and exclusive skins, for example Evil Geniuses couriers, SingSing's Mirana skin, Stickers, player cards and things of that nature. And that shit sells. Alot. Look up DAC 2015. It had 3M prizepool. It was crowdfunded. And alot more tournaments were like that. Like beyond the summit tournaments, Epicenters etc.

Not to mention that items in Dota, were sellable, and tradeable. Much like CS2 nowadays, where gun skins are sellable, and there's stickers that alone are enough to pay org expenses. Dota once had that system too. But for some reason, Valve had other plans for Dota. It's true that Valve put alot of money into Dota. 3 3M dollar majors per year, TI's with 40M dollar prizepools. Sure. But now that Valve turned off the faucet, they need to let the game self-sustain again.

Just put the current monetization system in CS2 into Dota, and Dota will be fine.

This is a valid point, Valve is concentrated with creating more attention to CounterStrike than Dota.
And they see it can gain more revenue from those things you mentioned with stickers and even the teams get some of it  as this latest article describes:
https://www.hltv.org/news/44683/valve-release-iem-cologne-major-stickers-tc

For the latest matches being played it is in the CS Asia Championship at the moment:
Falcons vs MOUZ
MiBR vs Legacy

[passwordnow]

Rumors are that Team Tundra will disband after this DreamLeague and they will rebrand themselves under the 1win banner so this means 33 and his squad will be under a different team name on both EWC and TI.

That's not rebranding but Tundra will disband due to leaving the dota 2 scene and they'll pass the roster to 1win and that means if 1win has a current roster, they'll have to dispose their current.

Also , since xiao8 left Tundra after being accused so many times of doing 322 and rigged games just to find out from a reddit post that Ame is being investigated in Russia for doing 322 games ...and these two news together are enough for me to stay away for life from China region and all their gaming teams. I simply had enough to watch XG doing suspect games and always being accused of 322 games from different persons or ex pro players...

That's not Tundra for xiao8 but Xtreme Gaming. I have no doubts how good the teams are in China but it's also being attached to 322 games that's hard to predict. There have been TI champs who have been caught there if you guys remember the Newbee roster, they were not scared in doing 322 in official games. It's all about the money and no longer the reputation but as for ame, I don't know if he's willing to stake his reputation for that.

[T1HGO]

That's not Tundra for xiao8 but Xtreme Gaming. I have no doubts how good the teams are in China but it's also being attached to 322 games that's hard to predict. There have been TI champs who have been caught there if you guys remember the Newbee roster, they were not scared in doing 322 in official games. It's all about the money and no longer the reputation but as for ame, I don't know if he's willing to stake his reputation for that.

There is no doubt chinese scene is infested with matchfixing, but that is only true for teams/players outside the top4 in China. It's also true that the whole tier 2 chinese scene was obliterated with Valve bans due to matchfixing. And i still remember that Knights and EHOME were caught matchfixing at Lima major 2023. It's undeniable Chinese scene is plagued with matchfix, i would argue SEA scene is almost as bad. These tier 3 tournaments like "lunar horse" or "moon studio" are insanely corrupted. But including xiao8 and Ame in that list is just lunacy to be honest. Outside the top4 in china, every team is shady.

Just a small correction, the only TI champ banned for matchfixing was Faith. TI2 champion with Invictus Gaming. And yes he was playing for Newbee when caught.

[passwordnow]

That's not Tundra for xiao8 but Xtreme Gaming. I have no doubts how good the teams are in China but it's also being attached to 322 games that's hard to predict. There have been TI champs who have been caught there if you guys remember the Newbee roster, they were not scared in doing 322 in official games. It's all about the money and no longer the reputation but as for ame, I don't know if he's willing to stake his reputation for that.

There is no doubt chinese scene is infested with matchfixing, but that is only true for teams/players outside the top4 in China. It's also true that the whole tier 2 chinese scene was obliterated with Valve bans due to matchfixing. And i still remember that Knights and EHOME were caught matchfixing at Lima major 2023. It's undeniable Chinese scene is plagued with matchfix, i would argue SEA scene is almost as bad. These tier 3 tournaments like "lunar horse" or "moon studio" are insanely corrupted. But including xiao8 and Ame in that list is just lunacy to be honest. Outside the top4 in china, every team is shady.

Most of those teams who are not tier 1 are likely engaged with 322. You're right that there have been SEA teams as well, and that's why the reputation for China and Sea are like that. We rarely see this anymore in the EEU because of how competitive the teams are there.

Just a small correction, the only TI champ banned for matchfixing was Faith. TI2 champion with Invictus Gaming. And yes he was playing for Newbee when caught.

Thanks for that, that whole roster of Newbee was also a tier 1 team who's managed to qualify in higher places in the past TIs.

[T1HGO]

Hey guys, i would like to know which players for you, were the strongest players at their peak, during their era. Players that had the most impact. I will rank mine. TI winners only.



Carry
1. Yatoro
2. ana
3. MATUMBAMAN
4. miCKe
5. skiter


Mid
1. Topson
2. Miracle
3. Sumail
4. s4
5. Nisha


Offlane
1. Collapse
2. Ceb
3. 33
4. AdmiralBulldog
5. ATF


Soft Support
1. JerAx
2. Mira
3. GH
4. Saksa
5. Boxi


Hard Support
1. Miposhka
2. n0tail
3. Sneyking
4. Akke
5. Puppey

[passwordnow]

Hey guys, i would like to know which players for you, were the strongest players at their peak, during their era. Players that had the most impact. I will rank mine. TI winners only.

Carry - I'm thinking of both yatoro and ana since both have got 2 TIs but if it's with mechanical, I think it's with ana.
Mid - I'm in between of topson and miracle. Both are good in situational but I'll give it props for topson.
Offlane - I'm a fan of collapse and 33 but I'll give it to ceb because it's not only about the skills in that lane but also the leadership he's shown.
Soft support - notable tiny airlines, Jerax.
Hard support - Puppey I think and I'll take that with their multiple majors although OG has also got theirs for n0tail but impactful hard one is Puppey for me during his peak.

[T1HGO]

Hey guys, i would like to know which players for you, were the strongest players at their peak, during their era. Players that had the most impact. I will rank mine. TI winners only.

Carry - I'm thinking of both yatoro and ana since both have got 2 TIs but if it's with mechanical, I think it's with ana.
Mid - I'm in between of topson and miracle. Both are good in situational but I'll give it props for topson.
Offlane - I'm a fan of collapse and 33 but I'll give it to ceb because it's not only about the skills in that lane but also the leadership he's shown.
Soft support - notable tiny airlines, Jerax.
Hard support - Puppey I think and I'll take that with their multiple majors although OG has also got theirs for n0tail but impactful hard one is Puppey for me during his peak.

Awesome! Thank you for sharing.
For me, Yatoro is the best player to ever play the game. His peak at TI10 and especially TI12 where it seemed like  he was smurfing, vulgarazing everyone. Fucking insane performance, never seen anything like it. ana was a mechanical prodigy.

Between Topson and Miracle, for me it comes down to that absolutely brutal performance at TI9 from Topson. Miracle had a longer peak, and he was a god, but he wasn't able to show that dominance at TI, not even at TI7 which he won. Peak Sumail also sits at the table with Miracle and Topson. Sumail was a god at the laning stage.

I completely agree with you on Ceb. I rank him above 33, but below Collapse. Collapse's peak is just unmatched. The most gifted offlane player to play the game.

Jerax GOD.

At pos5, Choosing Puppey as the goat is a legit opinion and i totally respect it. For me Puppey's absolute peak performance was at TI11, when they reached grand final to lose against Tundra. Puppey played out of his mind.
If we talk about peak Longevity, Puppey is number 1. But absolute peak performance, i rank him 5.

Probably a bit surprising that i chose 3 Alliance players on my list but that TI3 Alliance team was one of the most dominant teams to ever play the game. If i had to make anothe rank of the most dominant TI teams ever. It would probably be go like:
1. TI9 OG
2. TI12 Spirit
3. TI3 Alliance
4. TI6 Wings
5. TI11 Tundra

[passwordnow]

Hey guys, i would like to know which players for you, were the strongest players at their peak, during their era. Players that had the most impact. I will rank mine. TI winners only.

Carry - I'm thinking of both yatoro and ana since both have got 2 TIs but if it's with mechanical, I think it's with ana.
Mid - I'm in between of topson and miracle. Both are good in situational but I'll give it props for topson.
Offlane - I'm a fan of collapse and 33 but I'll give it to ceb because it's not only about the skills in that lane but also the leadership he's shown.
Soft support - notable tiny airlines, Jerax.
Hard support - Puppey I think and I'll take that with their multiple majors although OG has also got theirs for n0tail but impactful hard one is Puppey for me during his peak.

Awesome! Thank you for sharing.
For me, Yatoro is the best player to ever play the game. His peak at TI10 and especially TI12 where it seemed like  he was smurfing, vulgarazing everyone. Fucking insane performance, never seen anything like it. ana was a mechanical prodigy.

Between Topson and Miracle, for me it comes down to that absolutely brutal performance at TI9 from Topson. Miracle had a longer peak, and he was a god, but he wasn't able to show that dominance at TI, not even at TI7 which he won. Peak Sumail also sits at the table with Miracle and Topson. Sumail was a god at the laning stage.

I completely agree with you on Ceb. I rank him above 33, but below Collapse. Collapse's peak is just unmatched. The most gifted offlane player to play the game.

Jerax GOD.

At pos5, Choosing Puppey as the goat is a legit opinion and i totally respect it. For me Puppey's absolute peak performance was at TI11, when they reached grand final to lose against Tundra. Puppey played out of his mind.
If we talk about peak Longevity, Puppey is number 1. But absolute peak performance, i rank him 5.

Those are good takes of yours and almost we agree to the most of them. I think if there's one absolute best TI for me, it was the unexpected one and the players of it were like completely in the shadows and unknown, and that's when the Wings became a champ. IMO, it's good to mention them and that's completely a new set of players there that no one was actually aware of them and became the dark horse and became champs of ti6.

[T1HGO]

Hey guys, i would like to know which players for you, were the strongest players at their peak, during their era. Players that had the most impact. I will rank mine. TI winners only.

Carry - I'm thinking of both yatoro and ana since both have got 2 TIs but if it's with mechanical, I think it's with ana.
Mid - I'm in between of topson and miracle. Both are good in situational but I'll give it props for topson.
Offlane - I'm a fan of collapse and 33 but I'll give it to ceb because it's not only about the skills in that lane but also the leadership he's shown.
Soft support - notable tiny airlines, Jerax.
Hard support - Puppey I think and I'll take that with their multiple majors although OG has also got theirs for n0tail but impactful hard one is Puppey for me during his peak.

Awesome! Thank you for sharing.
For me, Yatoro is the best player to ever play the game. His peak at TI10 and especially TI12 where it seemed like  he was smurfing, vulgarazing everyone. Fucking insane performance, never seen anything like it. ana was a mechanical prodigy.

Between Topson and Miracle, for me it comes down to that absolutely brutal performance at TI9 from Topson. Miracle had a longer peak, and he was a god, but he wasn't able to show that dominance at TI, not even at TI7 which he won. Peak Sumail also sits at the table with Miracle and Topson. Sumail was a god at the laning stage.

I completely agree with you on Ceb. I rank him above 33, but below Collapse. Collapse's peak is just unmatched. The most gifted offlane player to play the game.

Jerax GOD.

At pos5, Choosing Puppey as the goat is a legit opinion and i totally respect it. For me Puppey's absolute peak performance was at TI11, when they reached grand final to lose against Tundra. Puppey played out of his mind.
If we talk about peak Longevity, Puppey is number 1. But absolute peak performance, i rank him 5.

Those are good takes of yours and almost we agree to the most of them. I think if there's one absolute best TI for me, it was the unexpected one and the players of it were like completely in the shadows and unknown, and that's when the Wings became a champ. IMO, it's good to mention them and that's completely a new set of players there that no one was actually aware of them and became the dark horse and became champs of ti6.

Absolutely, i edited my previous comment, adding that. My list of most dominant teams ever. TI6 Wings ranks at number 4 for me. They didn't win because they broke the game. They won because they were just better than everyone else, and by alot. Just outplaying and outdrafing everyone. Unlike Tundra or Alliance, that completely broke the game, and force Valve to immediatly patch and nerf everything those teams were doing.

[arallmuus]

a reddit post that Ame is being investigated in Russia for doing 322 games

I would have known about this considering how bad he was recently. I thought he lost his touch but it seems more likely thats its 322

Hey guys, i would like to know which players for you, were the strongest players at their peak, during their era. Players that had the most impact. I will rank mine. TI winners only.

I'll do mine in a whole package

1. Yatoro
2. Miracle
3. Collapse
4. GH
5. Notail

Miracle fan boy here so I would include him and GH but kinda surprising that Kuroky is not on the list lol but I'd say he was decent back then so not really surprising

This is a valid point, Valve is concentrated with creating more attention to CounterStrike than Dota.
And they see it can gain more revenue from those things you mentioned with stickers and even the teams get some of it  as this latest article describes:

Aside from that it would be the fanbase. The number of people that follow dota2 should be decreasing compared to 5 years ago. Its probably something to do with age as well, I personally find it kinda hard to focus on dota2 that takes like average 35-40 minutes per game. Its easier to watch cs2 rather than dota2 for sure