Bitcoin Forum
December 10, 2016, 04:45:11 PM *
News: To be able to use the next phase of the beta forum software, please ensure that your email address is correct/functional.
 
   Home   Help Search Donate Login Register  
Pages: « 1 ... 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 51 52 53 54 55 56 57 58 59 60 61 62 63 64 65 66 67 [68] 69 70 71 72 73 74 75 76 77 78 79 80 81 »
  Print  
Author Topic: 1GH/s, 20w, $700 (was $500) — Butterflylabs, is it for real? (Part 2)  (Read 138928 times)
simonk83
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 896


View Profile
February 14, 2012, 10:59:58 PM
 #1341

Uh-huh.


Aaaaaanyway, looking forward to seeing the power draw figures whenever Inaba gets a chance.
1481388311
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1481388311

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1481388311
Reply with quote  #2

1481388311
Report to moderator
1481388311
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1481388311

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1481388311
Reply with quote  #2

1481388311
Report to moderator
1481388311
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1481388311

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1481388311
Reply with quote  #2

1481388311
Report to moderator
Advertised sites are not endorsed by the Bitcoin Forum. They may be unsafe, untrustworthy, or illegal in your jurisdiction. Advertise here.
Inspector 2211
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 383



View Profile
February 14, 2012, 11:05:48 PM
 #1342

Why only Inaba gets a device ? Is he VIP ? Part of the "gang". Who knows but I am not buying their BS ...

Quote
7) The first buyers are indirectly a part of the scam. They are honest people who are going to say to others :"Hey, this thing WORKS! It's awesome, blablabla". The feedback is almost garanteed to be positive.

I've re-read myself, and maybe I wasn't clear enough. I don't accuse Inaba into that scam. I really believe he received his box and that his feedback is genuine. It's only that the first buyers, getting their awesome product, will certainly leave good feedback. If I bought that product, and received those specs at that price, I would certainly act that way too.

And that's the point, for the scam to work, it needs to be "approved" first by people with a good reputation. But those first buyers aren't doing this to scam, they are only honest with their impressions and, sadly, it serves the purpose of the scam.

Quote
What you are describing is known as a 'long con', the idea of which been brought up here before.

Yeah, but it's the first time I'm reading this topic and it's 72 pages long  Grin

Anyway, that was my last intervention on that topic. I just wanted to write my theory because, if I was a con man and in the shoes of the Butterflylabs CEO, that's exactly what I would do. The potential revenue for this scam is huge, and my greed could use a part of it.

Why actually develop a working product (you agree that it's a working product, right?) and ship a few and then run and be pursued by the FBI (it would be mail fraud etc.), when you just can ship more and more products, derive a modest profit from them and smile all the way to the bank?

No, I really don't think they have the intent to defraud.

However, that said, lots of things can happen, for instance, they place a big order in China, to catch up with the order backlog and in anticipation of future orders (now that the favorable reviews are in), pay for them with retail customers' funds, in the meantime the BTC exchange rate crashes and/or MtGox suddenly ceases operation just like TradeHill, whereupon a vast majority of customers cancel their orders and demand a refund, which they are now unable to provide because the money has been wired to China...

One of the top 10 reasons why small businesses fail is actually a scenario where the small business gets overwhelmed with demand, fails to manage cash flow and production schedules diligently, and then gets buried once lots of customers demand their money back.

I'm not saying that it WILL happen that way. I'm just saying it MIGHT happen that way.
andrehorta
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1120

Compre e venda bitcoins: www.bitcointoyou.com


View Profile WWW
February 15, 2012, 12:00:22 AM
 #1343

Does butterfly is ready for use? How can i configurate it´s? Can you send to Brazil?

Compre e venda bitcoin com segurança de uma empresa séria: https://www.bitcointoyou.com
Transações e confirmações rápidas!
antirack
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 491


Immersionist


View Profile
February 15, 2012, 12:03:47 AM
 #1344

Lets say you paid BFL via PayPal, wouldn't you be able to get your money back from them because of the PayPal buyer protection in case BFL never ships?

I only know it from the other end, the company I worked for constantly had to supply tracking numbers when people opened PayPal disputes. Even when it was shipped via registered airmail it wasn't enough, PayPal needed online tracking or it would result into a chargeback (and hence the customer getting back his money) down the road...

imsaguy
General failure and former
VIP
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 574

Don't send me a pm unless you gpg encrypt it.


View Profile WWW
February 15, 2012, 12:04:31 AM
 #1345

Lets say you paid BFL via PayPal, wouldn't you be able to get your money back from them because of the PayPal buyer protection?

I only know it from the other end, the company I worked for constantly had to supply tracking numbers when people opened PayPal disputes. Even when it was shipped via registered airmail it wasn't enough, PayPal needed online tracking or it would result into a chargeback (and hence the customer getting back his money) down the road...



Buyer protection has time limits.  That's part of the reason for dragging out delivery.

Coming Soon!™ © imsaguy 2011-2013, All rights reserved.

EIEIO:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=60117.0

Shades Minoco Collection Thread: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=65989
Payment Address: http://btc.to/5r6
antirack
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 491


Immersionist


View Profile
February 15, 2012, 12:08:58 AM
 #1346

Hmm. If you pay via PayPal using your Credit Card, I guess you could still do a chargeback by just going to your bank. The issuing bank normally asks the merchant (PayPal in this case, which will open a dispute and forward the request to BFL) to provide proof of delivery (yes, delivery, not shipping!) and since BFL/PayPal would not be able to come up with that, you'd get your money back. It might take a while, but who cares as long as you get your money back.

Also, BFL has a verified PayPal account and they have a working bank account. Unless they planned to run to Nigeria with all their money I don't see how they could get away with this easily...

My take, it's not a scam and they at least have a plan to deliver. Only time will tell if they actually can.
imsaguy
General failure and former
VIP
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 574

Don't send me a pm unless you gpg encrypt it.


View Profile WWW
February 15, 2012, 12:15:26 AM
 #1347

Hmm. If you pay via PayPal using your Credit Card, I guess you could still do a chargeback by just going to your bank. The issuing bank normally asks the merchant (PayPal in this case, which will open a dispute and forward the request to BFL) to provide proof of delivery (yes, delivery, not shipping!) and since BFL/PayPal would not be able to come up with that, you'd get your money back. It might take a while, but who cares as long as you get your money back.

Also, BFL has a verified PayPal account and they have a working bank account. Unless they planned to run to Nigeria with all their money I don't see how they could get away with this easily...

My take, it's not a scam and they at least have a plan to deliver. Only time will tell if they actually can.


If you read your credit card agreements, they will typically say you have 1-2 billing cycles (30-60 days) after you get your first bill showing the charge.  Essentially, anything over 90 days is pushing it if you want to try and dispute charges. I'm not saying it can't be done, but I am saying it becomes much more difficult.

Coming Soon!™ © imsaguy 2011-2013, All rights reserved.

EIEIO:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=60117.0

Shades Minoco Collection Thread: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=65989
Payment Address: http://btc.to/5r6
antirack
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 491


Immersionist


View Profile
February 15, 2012, 12:58:23 AM
 #1348

That might be a small problem then. But if BFL keeps telling you that they will ship in 4-6 weeks, you should theoretically be be covered "indefinitely". Found this: Visa, for example, sets a 120 day time limit which starts from the day you are aware of a problem.

So it's not from the day of the transaction, but from when you became aware of the problem. Minimum therefore 120 days + 4-6 weeks.

Inaba
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1260



View Profile WWW
February 15, 2012, 04:24:36 AM
 #1349

Numbers up front:

832 MH/s - I suspect that will increase with a new firmware load in the future.  See below as to production schedules.
Consumes between 85 and 90w at full load.
Draws .77A
Exhaust temperature was between 93 - 100 degreees F at the hottest point.  Pointing my laser thermometer at various components inside the unit, I saw a maximum temp of about 110F, but it was kind of hard to hold it on some of the smaller components and snap a pic, so there's no pic of the 110F reading. Ambient temp was about 80F.

The case was cool to the touch after 24H mining.  Exhaust temp never wavered during my spot checks.

Sound was minimal and my PSU, which is fairly quiet, was louder.  I don't have a decible meter, but I would estimate 26 db or so with both fans at full, maybe as high as 30, but I don't think so.  In either case, it's a bit less noisy than an Acellero Extreme HSF, that is to say, it's not the least bit offensive to the ears; you could sleep with one of these in your room.

So, the BFL single I got my grubby mitts on is a loaner.  I wanted to clear that up righ away.  It is not "my" unit, as I don't have a unit.  To address some of the tinfoil hats, I offered to pay BFL, in cash, for a number of units and they declined, due to lack of units.  If they were running a scam, I suspect they'd have jumped at the chance to take my cash.

Anyway, on to the unit itself.  It's larger than the pre-production unit I had access to before.  In the pictures, you'll find listed below, I used an 80mm fan as a reference item, along with a US $100 bill.  The unit is 4.25" square, and 2.5" tall, not including the tacked on bottom fan. 

Let me talk about that bottom fan for a minute. I'm going to say right up front it's not pretty, and the cut out bottom part to of the housing to acommodate both the fan and extra heat sinks are a little ghetto and I suspect some of you aren't going to be pleased.  That said, here's what I think. As I've stated before, I think BFL was unprepared for a number of things, first and foremost the rabid nature of online communities like Bitcointalk.  They were also unprepared for something like bitcoin mining that does not follow the same power and usage curves found in pretty much all other FPGA applications of this type.  They made estimations and promises based on base experience that would be accurate under just about any other circumstance.  Does this relieve them of responsibility?  No, but it does explain much of the process that has happened up until now and should be somewhat forgivable for basically pioneers in the field - since you can't really argue against the fact they have the fastest, nicest looking unit money can buy currently.  Far outpacing any other FPGA offering.

Ok, so that brings us back to the case.  They have pushed the deadline repeatedly and many of you have given them heaps of shit for it, perhaps some of it is justified, but I think much of it not.  Regardless, I think what we see here in this first batch is them delivering the performance (revised) promised in a timely fashion.  They could have pushed the date back again and retooled the board, case, etc... to be cleaner and you guys would have given them even more shit.  Again, rightly or wrongly.  In either case, for me personally, I would rather have an ugly box right now that is hashing than a pretty box 4 - 6 weeks from now; I can always order another prettty box then.  So what you have here is a box and board that is rigged to provide the performance in stable configuration; it's not as pretty as it could be, but it works as advertised.  I am satisfied with that.

That said, once we get past the tacked on HSF on the bottom, you could conceivably still stack these, I'm not so sure it would be a huge issue - the primary exhaust seems to be out the sides of the unit, thus stacking these is still going to draw the "cooler" air in from the top and bottom.  Given the temps I saw, I don't think it would be an issue unless you're in a severely enclosed/hot environment.  You could even increase the standoffs on the bottom fan by another inch and get that much more airflow.

The revision of the board sees quite a few changes to the power subsystems, which are positive.  I don't have an ocsillicope here, so I can't measure the power, but I would imagine it's a lot cleaner, looking at the design.  The power brick is also beefed up quite a bit, but it did get a bit warmer than I'd like to see, peaking out around 126F.  An end user could probably supply a different power brick if it becomes an issue.  The power connector is a standard barrel typ connector (3.5mm maybe?  I didn't measure) - not sure if it's center positive or negative.  I would also like to see a multi-unit power brick as an option. I can't imagine wanting to have 20 of these bricks sitting around at 125F each, but it's a small price to pay for replacing noisy GPUs.

There is basically one light on the unit to tell you it's on and one light inside to tell you it's hashing (actually two, one for each FPGA I think, but they both come on at the same time).  Hahsrate is dead on target, using cgminer v2.2.3  I ran these tests in Windows, since it was the most convenient box for taking pictures and measuring power.  It worked first time, with no drivers to install or anything. It was actually kind of amazing... absolutely zero headaches getting it going.  It's only a couple steps away from a completely plug and play mining solution.  One thing I did see, which I am a little confused about, but I have no addressed this with BFL as of yet - my observed effeciency was around 500%, sometimes much higher, but rarely much lower.  So my ultimate question is, why is this unit so much more efficient at finding candidate nonces than a GPU?  The shares are not being rejected by the server and appear to be valid, so they are legitimate - so I'm not sure what is going on there.  So literally, this thing seems to find, on average, 5 valid nonces per getwork.  One theory is it's using rollntime and because it's so fast in a single thread, it can actually get through several iterations before the time is out.  Just a half baked theory and I have not had a chance to either investigate or enquire.

This is a solid hashing unit, it never hiccuped, got hot, fluctuated power or did anything bad, other than sit on my desk and spit out 830 MH/s for almost 36 hours.  Here are some pictures of the unit in operation as well as a naked unit:

https://eclipsemc.com/bfl/flyingpigs/

If you're searching these lines for a point, you've probably missed it.  There was never anything there in the first place.
Inspector 2211
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 383



View Profile
February 15, 2012, 04:41:50 AM
 #1350

Excellent report, Inaba!

May I ask what the output voltage of the power brick is?
If it's 12 V, I have several 90% efficient 600W and 300W power supplies lying around, which I could put to good use with these babies.
I have 8 on order right now...
Inaba
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1260



View Profile WWW
February 15, 2012, 04:42:42 AM
 #1351

Output voltage is 12V

If you're searching these lines for a point, you've probably missed it.  There was never anything there in the first place.
bombo999
Member
**
Offline Offline

Activity: 107


View Profile
February 15, 2012, 04:48:45 AM
 #1352

thanks inaba ... nice report and photos
simonk83
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 896


View Profile
February 15, 2012, 04:51:47 AM
 #1353

Stuff

Brilliant Inaba, just brilliant.   Thanks so much for taking the time to do all that.   Very excited for these to turn up now.   As for the "ugly" box, right now I have my (huge) PC case open, lying on it's side, with 2 GPU's balanced on the top, and a giant fan pointed at everything (its Summer here).  Compared to that horrible mess, these things are an Adonis Smiley

Bring it on bitches.
punningclan
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 284


Making a better tomorrow, tomorrow.


View Profile
February 15, 2012, 04:55:32 AM
 #1354

Ugh, hacky heatsinks!. Nm, needs must. Any idea when I can buy one now that the market is tanking again?

It was a cunning plan to have the funny man be the money fan of the punning clan.
1J13NBTKiV8xrAo2dwaD4LhWs3zPobhh5S
punningclan
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 284


Making a better tomorrow, tomorrow.


View Profile
February 15, 2012, 04:56:59 AM
 #1355

Thanks for the report btw!  Cheesy

It was a cunning plan to have the funny man be the money fan of the punning clan.
1J13NBTKiV8xrAo2dwaD4LhWs3zPobhh5S
punningclan
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 284


Making a better tomorrow, tomorrow.


View Profile
February 15, 2012, 05:01:10 AM
 #1356

I'm not a troll here but the flying pigs motif is somewhat worrying. Undecided

It was a cunning plan to have the funny man be the money fan of the punning clan.
1J13NBTKiV8xrAo2dwaD4LhWs3zPobhh5S
simonk83
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 896


View Profile
February 15, 2012, 05:02:19 AM
 #1357

I'm not a troll here but the flying pigs motif is somewhat worrying. Undecided

I believe that's just Inaba being funny Smiley
kano
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1932


Linux since 1997 RedHat 4


View Profile
February 15, 2012, 05:14:19 AM
 #1358

Hell that post must have taken you a while Smiley
Excellent.

Firstly the obvious:
 Yes it's rollntime. No magic there.

Question: ambient temperature?

Edit: LOL missed that at the top 80F Tongue

Edit2: OK so 26C not hot but not cold - hmm hopefully being in a hotter climate isn't an issue.
But at least it does have temperature measurement available.
2.2.3 gives temps for bitforce so I guess people will find out quick once they actually ship ...

Pool: https://kano.is BTC: 1KanoiBupPiZfkwqB7rfLXAzPnoTshAVmb
CKPool and CGMiner developer, IRC FreeNode #ckpool and #cgminer kanoi
Help keep Bitcoin secure by mining on pools with Stratum, the best protocol to mine Bitcoins with ASIC hardware
allten
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 447



View Profile
February 15, 2012, 06:43:02 AM
 #1359

Thanks Inaba for the report!

I'll take a ghetto miner today over a pretty box tomorrow any day!
If it hashes and power is somewhat on target, there will be no complaining here.
abeaulieu
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 295



View Profile
February 15, 2012, 02:18:52 PM
 #1360

Thanks Inaba, great report.

I wish BFL would come back onto the forums and give some "official" updates as to the progress beyond this loaner unit.
Pages: « 1 ... 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 51 52 53 54 55 56 57 58 59 60 61 62 63 64 65 66 67 [68] 69 70 71 72 73 74 75 76 77 78 79 80 81 »
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Sponsored by , a Bitcoin-accepting VPN.
Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.19 | SMF © 2006-2009, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!