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Author Topic: 1GH/s, 20w, $700 (was $500) — Butterflylabs, is it for real? (Part 2)  (Read 138725 times)
bulanula
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January 18, 2012, 08:50:37 PM
 #781


Everyone who mines has a vested interest in a game-changing device such as BFL is claiming to release...

I wouldn't use so dramatic a term for it but, for some people, yes. The BFL product is most advantageous for those with high electricity costs and/or logistical issues with GPU mining side-effects. After all, any efficient GPU has 2x the hashrate/$ ratio as the BFL (5970: $300@800Mhash. BFL: $600@800Mhash. Replace '5970' with 5870, or 5850 or 5830, and the same ratio applies).

You can find used/refurb 5830's for $75 now and they will get ~275Mhash; that's almost a 3x better Mhash/$ ratio than BFL. Yes, I realize that over the longer term (the exact length of that term will be different for everyone) the lower electricity costs of the FPGA will overtake the initial cost savings of the GPU ... but I'm putting that aside for now.

In my case my GPUs run in my home; I've reached the point where I cannot add any more mining capacity without compromising comfort (heat, noise). These BFL boxes will (a) let me add a bit more capacity; and/or (b) replace some GPU capacity with FPGA.

If I had the option of running my GPU rigs outside my living spaces, I'd pick up more cheap GPUs, not BFL Singles, simply because of (a) the lower up-front capital outlay for GPUs; (b) the expected higher resale value of GPUs; (c) the better warranty of GPUs; and (d) my low electrical rate.

Everyone should run their own 'cost/benefit' analysis before deciding what is best for them. I'm sure the BFL boxes will be popular with many people, but they won't be for everyone. Once I see they are shipping and have read some positive reviews, I will buy up one or two myself just to see how well they would work for me.

YMMV.

Thank you for this Epoch. I have now realized that BFL is not an option for people like me with tons of electricity and space !
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RandyFolds
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January 18, 2012, 09:00:55 PM
 #782

While I have him on ignore, I can still unfortunately see his crap in everyone's quotes.   Please just stop responding to him and I'm sure he'll slink off to annoy something else when he stops getting attention.

You can't control it, you just read what's in front of you whether you want to or not? Go fuck yourself Simon.

If you want to go back 120 pages or so, I was on there saying I would give the benefit of the doubt to BFL. That was before a four month delay and a series of lies and deceptions.

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RaggedMonk
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January 18, 2012, 09:29:29 PM
 #783

Weren't the singles supposed to ship by Jan 1?  It is supposed to be another 4-6 weeks?
plastic.elastic
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January 18, 2012, 09:35:01 PM
 #784

Quote
Yes. I think it is unreasonable. It is the way they got into this predicament where they cannot deliver on-spec or on-time.

They took people's money -based upon lies- as capital to build a product (that doesn't exist as of yet) and even with their irresponsible preorders, couldn't finance their endeavor? They are still accepting pre-orders, now for a $25k vapor-box as well. You're telling me they can't find a venture capitalist to kick them a few hundred grand to deliver their products on time? They don't have enough collateral to secure a bank loan?

How can the lead time be the same for a completely undesigned and untested device be the same as one that is already on the production line and due to hit the shelves in a week?

Thanks for answering.  So, in a nutshell, your chain of logic is completely non-existent and meanders all over the place, breaking down like a Ford fresh off the showroom floor.  That's kind of what I thought, but I had hoped that maybe you had some sort of logical consistence to your constant haranguing, but my hopes have been dashed, sadly.


Sorry if your opinion isnt fact. Just because you think its not logical , doesnt make it so. Who gives a shiet what you "hoped". Do you care if i "hoped" you're retard?

I troll this thread because of pos like you who thinks their opinion is end of all. I dont support such business tactics of BFL's. You can go fuck yourself.

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simonk83
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January 18, 2012, 09:47:26 PM
 #785

Weren't the singles supposed to ship by Jan 1?  It is supposed to be another 4-6 weeks?

No, the pre-orders are shipping this month.
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January 18, 2012, 10:12:08 PM
 #786

Weren't the singles supposed to ship by Jan 1?  It is supposed to be another 4-6 weeks?
they're using valve time.

It is pitch black. You are likely to be eaten by a grue.

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January 18, 2012, 10:19:04 PM
 #787

Weren't the singles supposed to ship by Jan 1?  It is supposed to be another 4-6 weeks?

Well originally they were going to ship Nov. 1 but who's counting.  

Maybe BFL is approaching an event horizon and we are witnessing a time dialation effect.  Relative to the BFL single being crushed by a singularity they are still on track but to us outsides it takes an exponentially increasing amount of time.
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January 18, 2012, 10:24:10 PM
 #788

Weren't the singles supposed to ship by Jan 1?  It is supposed to be another 4-6 weeks?

Well originally they were going to ship Nov. 1 but who's counting.  

Maybe BFL is approaching an event horizon and we are witnessing a time dialation effect.  Relative to the BFL single being crushed by a singularity they are still on track but to us outsides it takes an exponentially increasing amount of time.

LOL. Love those black holes!

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MelMan2002
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January 18, 2012, 10:47:46 PM
 #789

How can the lead time be the same for a completely undesigned and untested device be the same as one that is already on the production line and due to hit the shelves in a week?
Heh, I'll bet that if anyone actually purchased the Rig Box, they would drop EVERYTHING, including the singles, to do whatever they were/are planning to do with it. (Make something, abscond, buy a car, etc)

The rig box does not have an ETA. The Singles are 4-6 weeks from time of order; the rig box has no such wording on their order page.

I emailed them on Dec 16th about the rig box and got these replies same day:

Quote
Hi Mel.  I just got done speaking with someone else who asked the very same question.  Rig Box orders placed today have an expected delivery of 8 weeks.

Kind regards,
Sonny K
BF Labs Inc.

Quote
The pre-order period will end on public demonstration of the production Rig Box units.  The price will go up at that point by a margin not yet determined.

Regards,
Sonny K
BF Labs Inc.

Quote
I think you wanted to know *when* that will be.  Early February.

Kind regards,
Sonny K
BF Labs Inc.
bulanula
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January 18, 2012, 10:53:46 PM
 #790

How can the lead time be the same for a completely undesigned and untested device be the same as one that is already on the production line and due to hit the shelves in a week?
Heh, I'll bet that if anyone actually purchased the Rig Box, they would drop EVERYTHING, including the singles, to do whatever they were/are planning to do with it. (Make something, abscond, buy a car, etc)

The rig box does not have an ETA. The Singles are 4-6 weeks from time of order; the rig box has no such wording on their order page.

I emailed them on Dec 16th about the rig box and got these replies same day:

Quote
Hi Mel.  I just got done speaking with someone else who asked the very same question.  Rig Box orders placed today have an expected delivery of 8 weeks.

Kind regards,
Sonny K
BF Labs Inc.

Quote
The pre-order period will end on public demonstration of the production Rig Box units. Sounds a bit dodgy to me !? First get the fools to pay up for a special price then demo the unit publicly ( which may never happen as they have ran off with 25k easily ) Shocked  The price will go up at that point by a margin not yet determined.

Regards,
Sonny K
BF Labs Inc.

Quote
I think you wanted to know *when* that will be.  Early February. Thought this was before the end of January !?!? Angry

Kind regards,
Sonny K
BF Labs Inc.

Quite revealing ! Thank you very much !
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January 18, 2012, 11:29:59 PM
 #791

Quote
Yes. I think it is unreasonable. It is the way they got into this predicament where they cannot deliver on-spec or on-time.

They took people's money -based upon lies- as capital to build a product (that doesn't exist as of yet) and even with their irresponsible preorders, couldn't finance their endeavor? They are still accepting pre-orders, now for a $25k vapor-box as well. You're telling me they can't find a venture capitalist to kick them a few hundred grand to deliver their products on time? They don't have enough collateral to secure a bank loan?

How can the lead time be the same for a completely undesigned and untested device be the same as one that is already on the production line and due to hit the shelves in a week?

Thanks for answering.  So, in a nutshell, your chain of logic is completely non-existent and meanders all over the place, breaking down like a Ford fresh off the showroom floor.  That's kind of what I thought, but I had hoped that maybe you had some sort of logical consistence to your constant haranguing, but my hopes have been dashed, sadly.


Sorry if your opinion isnt fact. Just because you think its not logical , doesnt make it so. Who gives a shiet what you "hoped". Do you care if i "hoped" you're retard?

I troll this thread because of pos like you who thinks their opinion is end of all. I dont support such business tactics of BFL's. You can go fuck yourself.


What's the matter, stud?  Did I piss you off?  Did your little brain overload?  Glad you like my avatar, it looks good on you.  At least you know what it feels like to not look like a douche.  Enjoy it!  Sorry about letting your secrets out, but it happens and I am really sorry if I hurt your feelings, little man.  Your fragile ego is hard to dance around.



If you're searching these lines for a point, you've probably missed it.  There was never anything there in the first place.
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January 18, 2012, 11:35:52 PM
 #792

Why is the lead on devices ordered today the same as when they hadn't even been designed or built?

Because it takes time to get components sent from over seas and assembled.  Perhaps you're not familiar with the concept of NON mass produced items.  

Quote
Why isn't the money they have collected enough to put stock on their shelves, so to speak? Generally, profit taking doesn't begin in a business until the business becomes profitable. So why aren't their margins on the 'singles' already preordered put back into procuring more units, thus reducing lead time?

So why would you put stock on shelves if you don't know what actual demand is going to be?  That would be incredibly stupid from a business standpoint.  I would keep barely enough stock to ship a couple units and order the rest as required until I were comfortable with what demand is for the long term.  It would be ignorant in the extreme to order 1000 units and then have 700 of them sitting around gathering dust.

Quote
If the money isn't enough, why haven't they sought capital elsewhere? VC funds fly around all day, for far stupider plans than this. The fact that they still don't have machines leads me to believe they haven't successfully sought it out.

Why?  Why not?  Why be indebted to someone else?

Quote
Yes, the aforementioned questions that remain unanswered lead me to believe it is unreasonable to still have a 4-6 week (that could turn to 4 months without explanation, apparently) lead time. You are telling me that they are building these as orders come in? Not in batches? Seriously?

I don't know what they are doing... but from my considerable experience, I've already outlined what I would be doing were I in their shoes.

If you're searching these lines for a point, you've probably missed it.  There was never anything there in the first place.
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January 18, 2012, 11:53:30 PM
 #793


Quote
Yes, the aforementioned questions that remain unanswered lead me to believe it is unreasonable to still have a 4-6 week (that could turn to 4 months without explanation, apparently) lead time. You are telling me that they are building these as orders come in? Not in batches? Seriously?

I don't know what they are doing... but from my considerable experience, I've already outlines what I would be doing were I in their shoes.

Actually they haven't built anything that anyone even knows about yet except a failed prototype based on a simulation.
Hopefully that will change soon ... and it better be soon based on a LOT of what has been said here by many ...

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RandyFolds
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January 19, 2012, 12:09:32 AM
 #794

You guys remember like, three months ago when this was all going to be settled in a matter of days...

To take a page from Atlas' book: heh...

Why is the lead on devices ordered today the same as when they hadn't even been designed or built?

Because it takes time to get components sent from over seas and assembled.  Perhaps you're not familiar with the concept of NON mass produced items. 

I just had two completely custom pumps designed and fabricated (at a cost of roughly $2000 each) by Tunze and shipped to me from their factory in Germany, which incidentally takes a 31 day holiday over Christmas and New Years. These are the only two of these pumps in existence, and despite ordering them in November, I received them within a week of the factory reopening. While it isn't computer components, it should serve as a reminder that companies with good customer service and high ticket items hustle to deliver.

Quote
Quote
Why isn't the money they have collected enough to put stock on their shelves, so to speak? Generally, profit taking doesn't begin in a business until the business becomes profitable. So why aren't their margins on the 'singles' already preordered put back into procuring more units, thus reducing lead time?

So why would you put stock on shelves if you don't know what actual demand is going to be?  That would be incredibly stupid from a business standpoint.  I would keep barely enough stock to ship a couple units and order the rest as required until I were comfortable with what demand is for the long term.  It would be ignorant in the extreme to order 1000 units and then have 700 of them sitting around gathering dust.

Maybe not 1000, but how about fifty...or even one for that matter... You completely missed the point. Why aren't they reinvesting their profit in the business in order to deliver for their customers?

Quote
Quote
If the money isn't enough, why haven't they sought capital elsewhere? VC funds fly around all day, for far stupider plans than this. The fact that they still don't have machines leads me to believe they haven't successfully sought it out.

Why?  Why not?  Why be indebted to someone else?

Be indebted to one party versus being indebted to every single person who orders a unit? It's bad business; they are trying to milk an interest free loan that people apparently are foolish enough to provide for them.

Quote
Quote
Yes, the aforementioned questions that remain unanswered lead me to believe it is unreasonable to still have a 4-6 week (that could turn to 4 months without explanation, apparently) lead time. You are telling me that they are building these as orders come in? Not in batches? Seriously?

I don't know what they are doing... but from my considerable experience, I've already outlines what I would be doing were I in their shoes.

So they are ordering these from an assembly house one at a time, or they are grouping them into lots. If they are accumulating a number of orders to hit some sorts of price break, than their delivery dates are nothing more than wild speculation, since as you elaborated above, they have no real way to gauge interest and order rates.



Why do people want to believe so friggin' hard?

I assume, Inaba, that you are in some sort of tech field. Do you routinely deliver on your clientele's jobs almost half a year late? It is bad business, plain and simple, regardless of however you and their fan club choose to defend them.

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January 19, 2012, 12:27:07 AM
 #795

Maybe not 1000, but how about fifty...or even one for that matter... You completely missed the point. Why aren't they reinvesting their profit in the business in order to deliver for their customers?

I don't know what they are doing as far as that goes, but I do not see any evidence that is not happening. How fast, exactly, can you design an FPGA solution to the specific problem of Bitcoin and deliver it in a nice form factor, from scratch?

Quote
Be indebted to one party versus being indebted to every single person who orders a unit? It's bad business; they are trying to milk an interest free loan that people apparently are foolish enough to provide for them.

Yes, because one the R&D is done and you have a shipping product, you do not answer to a VC.  In fact, during the design phase, you do not answer to a VC.  You are going to say "Well, you answer to customers." Indeed, and you also refund customers and wash your hands of them if you desire, not so with a VC.

Quote
So they are ordering these from an assembly house one at a time, or they are grouping them into lots. If they are accumulating a number of orders to hit some sorts of price break, than their delivery dates are nothing more than wild speculation, since as you elaborated above, they have no real way to gauge interest and order rates.

I have no idea what they are doing as far as that goes.  My guess is they are ordering small lots.

Quote
I assume, Inaba, that you are in some sort of tech field. Do you routinely deliver on your clientele's jobs almost half a year late? It is bad business, plain and simple, regardless of however you and their fan club choose to defend them.

I don't disagree that delivering late product is bad. I also don't disagree that there haven't been mis-steps.  What I take umbrage to is the brush you and several others keep trying to paint them with, blowing things out of proportion and nitpicking issues to serve your purpose (trolling).  I have no vested interest as to whether they succeed or not, but I call bullshit out when I see it.

If you're searching these lines for a point, you've probably missed it.  There was never anything there in the first place.
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January 19, 2012, 12:32:52 AM
 #796

I also enjoy calling bullshit when I see it, hence my participation in these threads since day one...

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January 19, 2012, 01:42:21 AM
 #797

I also enjoy calling bullshit when I see it, hence my participation in these threads since day one...

I have to side with Randy in this one. Until I see people with these units in hand, working to what they have been guaranteed (the weaker 800mh/s @80 watts, to be nice) This is complete bs.

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dirtycat
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January 19, 2012, 01:48:03 AM
 #798

so does this mean im never gonna get my 50.4 gigahash rig box?

poop!
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January 19, 2012, 01:50:04 AM
 #799

so does this mean im never gonna get my 50.4 gigahash rig box?

Have faith.  You will get it in 4-6 weeks*.


*Note: "weeks" as used in this post doesn't refer to the standard time keeping measure consisting of 7 rotations of the planet Earth.  The exact specification of a BFL "week" is a industry trade secret and can't be revealed at this time because of competitors and stuff.
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January 19, 2012, 02:10:49 AM
 #800

 Roll Eyes
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