My Dream Bitcointalk Forum

[KingsDen]

Introduction:
Forums are great places to teach, learn and interact. I have been in some other forums, but this is the best and the most vast I have seen. I have not been here for long and as such I cannot actually tell how the forum was before now; if there are notable changes(which I believe)from status quo. On this note, I beg to be forgiven if I misrepresent the past. As suggested by the subject, I am interested in the future.

Article Tools:
1. Other forum experiences
2. My brief knowledge of the forum.
3. My natural desire for improvement.

Article Motivators:
1. Is Bitcointalk.org losing user base?
2. What will be your reason to leave bitcointalk?
3. My natural desire for improvement and/or greatness.

Below are the features of the Bitcointalk of my dream;

1. Scam Moderation:
Bitcoin had been grossly accused of being a scam currency and this accusation has sinked in the minds of many. Let us assume a scenario where a newbie who already had conceived that bitcoin is all about scam, having being convinced and persuaded to join a forum created by Satoshi himself. Believing that here is the source and true definition of bitcoin, but on arrival, in less than a week he/she is scammed. What an irony and/or coincidence?
Even if the forum insists that she cannot moderate scam due to its complexity of detecting a real scammer, but there are some obvious scams. I understand that the forum has a trust system to check scam. But the day I toured the trust system, I discovered that almost everyone here who I assumed is reputable in the forum, including Theymos himself has some negative feedbacks. No matter from whom, it is actually passing a message. I was forced to ponder if the trust system is - A scam buster being busted by the busted? Or a scammer being trusted to bust other scammers?
I am strongly dreaming a bitcointalk forum where scam is moderated, atleast to an extent.

2. Forum Publicity:
Most of the times I have blamed myself for not discovering this forum since 2010 I joined Facebook. But I have stopped blaming myself, I now blame the forum for making me not to know her even when I made efforts to. I remember making a google search in 2016 with these key words "What is bitcoin all about?" I read the search results but nothing led me here. When you visit B/H board, there are questions such as the above and they have all been answered here. In my dream I saw bitcointalk optimized B/H, Bitcoin Discussion, Technical Board some other boards in search engines. Such that newbies random questions will lead to this forum.

3. Thread/Topic summerizer:
I dreamt of a bitcointalk forum, where there is a thread summerizer, be it the topic creator or whoever that would be appointed for the purpose. I held this dream within me, not until I saw @fillippone do it in his thread
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5349708.msg57517379#msg57517379
When you visit some threads, you will discover they are in 20+ pages. This can be serious discussion or debate threads. Will a user(who didn't follow the conversation from the beginning) have to read from pages 1 to 20+ to get everyone's opinions? Or will he need to check the usernames to determine whose comment to read or skip?
I dream of a bitcointalk forum which summerizes thread at every 5th page, such that if I meet a 27pages discussion, I would have to visit pages 5, 10, 15, 20 and 25 to gather the needed information in the form of summary.

4. Newbie Safe Haven:
No one births a child and start teaching the baby how not to steal, even when the baby has not yet known what stealing is.
Relating this to this forum, I knew some common crimes in bitcointalk within my few days of being here.
How did I know, because of the statements as this; "KingsDen is an alt", "maybe he wants to join bounty with this account ", "he is evading ban" perhaps want to cheat signature campaigns. Etc.
I dream of a bitcointalk forum where newbies will not be exposed to some ill information about the forum till they get to a certain ranks(maybe Jr member) This will sustain the sanity of the forum, to especially the real newbies.

5. Mobile Version or App:
I can stay few months without seeing my PC, but I hardly stay 30mins without seeing my mobile phone. It is not an addiction, it is a necessity. I dream of a bitcointalk I can navigate even when driving. Even if a new forum software is not going to be released, I dreamt of a mobile friendly bitcointalk with an enhanced notification features and also information sorting, not only according to date and time, but according to the importance of the topic(this feature will filter shit posts from quality posts). The criterion to determine sorting by information could be number of merits earned by such a post.

6. Enhanced Visual:
I understood that bitcointalk is a privacy oriented forum. Could it be the reason most of its members are hiding behind the curtain? The creator of this forum is the Father of it, also bitcoin is widely known for its anonymity. Are we all to maintain the legacy?
However, I have a dream where bitcointalk forum breaknews, display market prices, hosts interviews from members and project developers etc. This will resurface salient and latent  information in the forum and make them fit for reference purposes. I am happy this dream is about coming through as I read this thread Bitcointalk youtube channel - What would you want to see?

7. Evil Fee Modification:
I cannot imagine a newbie with zero crypto knowledge, who has not created a wallet before, being asked to atone for an evil he/she didn't commit. Who will guide the newbie? He/she might be scammed in the process of making the payment or pay higher fees.
Though many users have complained about the evil fee, if it cannot be eliminated entirely because of its ability to wage war against spamming, account farming, ban evation etc.
Can the evil fee come later? When the user must have signed in, start learning and building the account, maybe before the user joins a signature campaign, bounty campaign or do business, he would have to pay the evil fee.
By this time, he will be knowledgeable on how to make the payments, even if he applies for whitelisting, his purpose in the system must have been seen to an extent. Then the work of the whitelisters will be eased.

As long as my dream is trying to become, I was obliged to wake and share my dream.
Long live bitcointalk users.
I crave for a forum I will look back at in 5yrs time and see positive differences.
Thank you all!

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[Charles-Tim]

Not that you are totally right, the merit for just the long write-up, but not perfect at all if I will have to tell you the truth.

1. Scam Moderation:

Some people will be so slack to the extent they will still be scammed, it is better the way it is. Did you actually know that obvious scam posts of users that want to scam are usually deleted if known to be a scam attempt, although they are not banned until they go against the rules of the forum. But moderators can not know everyone that want to definitely scam, but any post of such are frequently reported and deleted.

4. Newbie Safe Haven:

You have not seen how newbies opening new accounts, evading ban and more that will annoy you to the extent moderators will ban the IP address or VPN address such people are using. See where your quality work got you to, it is because you make your account worthy. Spammers and bounty cheaters are more, the reason this will not be considered as they are the ones that are opening new accounts which will later be of low quality.

7. Evil Fee Modification:

I think you should read the quote below. More veteran members can request from theymos, account whitelisting ability, this is solved already.

If a newbie (newbie) having this problem, they will never know such a service is existed in the forum

Theymos added a link to this thread to the message shown to users who registered from an evil IP. All they have to do is read it.

So far, I've whitelisted 14 users, and rejected many more. A few users sent an email to everyone.
I'm curious how many requests Upgrade00 rejected.

Can the evil fee come later?

Evil fee can not be later, this defeat the purpose of the evil fee, which is spamming, newly registered users can request for whitelisting by emailing the users that have the ability to whitelisting newbie accounts, this will not encourage spamming, and evil fee will not be paid.

[The Sceptical Chymist]

OP, I know you stated what your motivations for making this thread are, but the whole thing just comes off as an attempt to earn merits.  Maybe I'm getting even more jaded about these kinds of threads (including the self-congratulatory ones when members rank up), but I'm starting to become a lot more careful about newer members and what their real motivations likely are--especially after threads like this one.

No doubt you put in a lot of effort here, but most of this stuff has been discussed in the past....so what is this, a thread to discuss everything from the evil fee to having a mobile-friendly version of the forum?  Or is it just a thread in which you voice your thoughts on the forum?  If it's the latter, why bother?  If it's the former, well, good luck with it but it's not necessary.

Hate to be negative, but I'm getting a strange vibe lately from threads like this.

[KingsDen]

@Charles-Tim, I would have reacted in a particular area of your comment, but @The Pharmacist shared link has got me dumbfounded.

No doubt you put in a lot of effort here, but most of this stuff has been discussed in the past....so what is this, a thread to discuss everything from the evil fee to having a mobile-friendly version of the forum?  Or is it just a thread in which you voice your thoughts on the forum?  If it's the latter, why bother?  If it's the former, well, good luck with it but it's not necessary.

Hate to be negative, but I'm getting a strange vibe lately from threads like this.

I know and I maintain it that Hero members and Legendary members have witnessed different generations of newbies. So, it will always not be difficult to classify newbies (whether accurate or not). I am so much convinced you stormed this post with another vibe from elsewhere. Even now, I am reluctant of emphasising on the OP. No one goes to the link you shared and come out with a positive vibe. However, I only tried to air my opinions, though some are already discussed and some has not been discussed atol. But in all I approached them in my own unique dimensions and as I perceived them.
Peace!

[HaleyOccam]

OP, I know you stated what your motivations for making this thread are, but the whole thing just comes off as an attempt to earn merits.  Maybe I'm getting even more jaded about these kinds of threads (including the self-congratulatory ones when members rank up), but I'm starting to become a lot more careful about newer members and what their real motivations likely are--especially after threads like this one.

@Kingsden, if your content does not appear before the thread mentioned by the pharmacist, you will still receive everyone’s support and merits, but I am also in a state of confusion. I show good to others (giving merits). I Has been dragged into a swamp, the harder you work, the more you sink.

The forum has been developing for 12 years. The early members of the forum are tired of the "naive" argument of newcomers, or we are not people of the same era, for our personality , They don’t understand or don’t like it directly. We are good at expressing, we highlight individuality, we respect the "old man", the forum you dream of is not what they want, our opinion equals our qualifications.

I'm not targeting someone, and I'm not showing someone a favor. Freedom is relative, and there is no absolute existence. As long as there is human nature, there will be no objective expressions. It is the subjective expression of everyone. From another perspective, I also understand the occurrence of such things.

I am an ordinary person, and my purpose is very simple, to grow fast, earn money to support my family, and grow up with my children. Because I don’t believe that the people here are noble and elegant. Ratimov used to be full of swear words and full of anger, but I admit his talent. All I can do is I don’t agree with what he said about me.

Sometimes, we are not gold, and there is no way to make everyone like it, and I am not a flatterer, always saying that others like to listen. I have been in the forum for a while, and I gradually adapt to the forum. I will not ask others to adapt to me.

[Jazmin Leslie]

OP, I know you stated what your motivations for making this thread are, but the whole thing just comes off as an attempt to earn merits.  Maybe I'm getting even more jaded about these kinds of threads (including the self-congratulatory ones when members rank up), but I'm starting to become a lot more careful about newer members and what their real motivations likely are--especially after threads like this one.

What's wrong with wanting to get Merit? You used to be a novice, don't you have the same experience?
The direct manifestation of “affirmation” in this place is the number behind each person Merit,I didn’t think there was hierarchical discrimination here, but now I am a little skeptical. So to improve the merits should be a positive idea.

There have been some repetitive content in his articles, but they are not completely valueless. Can you guarantee that every sentence you have said and every post you publish will have value for others?

In addition, many newbies just came here because they were sunny and kind. For me, Merit’s only role is to be recognized for the hard work I put in,Just as a philosopher said:

It is impossible for people to leave society and exist independently.

This is the spiritual need of human beings,I think you also have this need, I can feel it from your generosity.

[KingsDen]

The forum has been developing for 12 years. The early members of the forum are tired of the "naive" argument of newcomers, or we are not people of the same era, for our personality , They don’t understand or don’t like it directly. We are good at expressing, we highlight individuality, we respect the "old man", the forum you dream of is not what they want, our opinion equals our qualifications.

You got it here. "We are not people of same era". Also "The early members of the forum are tired of the naive argument or suggestions of the newcomers"

I have just tried to analyse it this way;
1. The early members are willing to help newer members grow, and it seems such gestures had been betrayed by many newcomers before. Now they are skeptical and wouldn't want to repeat such mistakes. It's a kind of transfer of aggressions playing out.
2. The system does not have a reliable means to trust It's users. It is happens like this; Theymos trusted some early comers and the early comers inturn trusted other members which gave rise to DT1 and DT2(Which I don't know what DT stands for). Assuming the forum something like KYC, the issue of trust and trust abuse would have been curtailed. So, the only means to trust is to subject one to series of accusations, some substantial and others not.
However, newcomers need to spend much time here, before they could be trusted. It does not hurt if you are not trusted, but it hurts if the few that tends to trust you begin to distrust you.

I has been dragged into a swamp, the harder you work, the more you sink

I think the best practice should be to remain calm in the swamp, a saviour might come to rescue you, however if no one comes, there would be a summer and the swamp will dry. But it will take time. Thanks!

[Pokapoka124]

Assuming the forum something like KYC, the issue of trust and trust abuse would have been curtailed. So, the only means to trust is to subject one to series of accusations, some substantial and others not.
However, newcomers need to spend much time here, before they could be trusted. It does not hurt if you are not trusted, but it hurts if the few that tends to trust you begin to distrust you.

There will be no kyc in the forum. Bitcointalk is a decentralized forum. I can't believe you'd suggest a thing like that. Where's the sense in that? A mandatory kyc would expose the identities of people with x wallet addresses  

I think the best practice should be to remain calm in the swamp, a saviour might come to rescue you, however if no one comes, there would be a summer and the swamp will dry. But it will take time. Thanks!

What are you thanking him for? Remaining silent when accused may be seen as admission of the crime. I suggest you defend yourself when accused you have nothing to fear.  Btw you are not being calm you created this thread hours after Ratimov's thread . I agree with some of the accounts accused are alts. One I quickly spotted was PastorNick who created a https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?table in his second post after joining the forum two days before. When asked about it, he denied being an alt but here we are.

[KingsDen]

Btw you are not being calm you created this thread hours after Ratimov's thread .

THIS THREAD HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH RATIMOV THREAD. I was not even aware of Ratimov thread until @The Pharmacist drew my attention to it through his comment above. Anything that doesn't appear in B/H, Bitcoin Discussion and Meta is always difficult for me to see because I rarely visit other boards for now.

[Pokapoka124]

Btw you are not being calm you created this thread hours after Ratimov's thread .

THIS THREAD HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH RATIMOV THREAD. I was not even aware of Ratimov thread until @The Pharmacist drew my attention to it through his comment above. Anything that doesn't appear in B/H, Bitcoin Discussion and Meta is always difficult for me to see because I rarely visit other boards for now.

Okay OP, I'm not accusing you of anything. Your point no.4 just seems like you're making a statement concerning the issues raised on that thread.

[KingsDen]

Btw you are not being calm you created this thread hours after Ratimov's thread .

THIS THREAD HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH RATIMOV THREAD. I was not even aware of Ratimov thread until @The Pharmacist drew my attention to it through his comment above. Anything that doesn't appear in B/H, Bitcoin Discussion and Meta is always difficult for me to see because I rarely visit other boards for now.

Okay OP, I'm not accusing you of anything. Your point no.4 just seems like you're making a statement concerning the issues raised on that thread.

I understand you sir!
It's an unfortunate coincidence, but the truth about it is so clear. It is an honest suggestion from me to better the sanity of the forum.
I wish I read Ratimov post in reputation, I wouldn't have dropped this post, not even now maybe it would have come later. However, the information is out already, I wish some, if not all my dreams come true.

[tranthidung]

Can the evil fee come later? When the user must have signed in, start learning and building the account, maybe before the user joins a signature campaign, bounty campaign or do business, he would have to pay the evil fee.

Evil fee of an IP address already is calculated by the forum before you make your account. Your latest registration attempt only can make the evil score worse a little bit.

I don't understand your implication (the italicized part), what does it mean? Evil fee, if required, would be required instantly after you register your account and log in. It does not relate to your account use cases. Signature campaign, bounty, scam, spam, etc., all of such don't trigger evil fee on your account. Such activities only trigger your account ban (temporary or permanent) or negative trust, feedback, active flag on your account.

By this time, he will be knowledgeable on how to make the payments

It's your assumption only. People can know how to do Bitcoin or crypto transactions before they join the forum.

[caryoscar]

Btw you are not being calm you created this thread hours after Ratimov's thread .

THIS THREAD HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH RATIMOV THREAD. I was not even aware of Ratimov thread until @The Pharmacist drew my attention to it through his comment above. Anything that doesn't appear in B/H, Bitcoin Discussion and Meta is always difficult for me to see because I rarely visit other boards for now.

Okay OP, I'm not accusing you of anything. Your point no.4 just seems like you're making a statement concerning the issues raised on that thread.

I checked your replies and merit records. The pharmacist’s point of view is also reasonable. I deeply agree with Pokapoka’s point of view. Keeping silent is equivalent to admitting a crime. It means that you feel guilty for the crime. I think you should state the facts. . Just like me, I have made mistakes (not familiar with the forum rules, but I took the initiative to admit and explain). The point I disagree with is that no matter who wants to be recognized (desire for merit), this is normal, and you may be too obvious. What the forum will look like in the future, I have no right to say. I read the RATIMOV thread mentioned by the pharmacist, and I also explained it, because we are all on his list. This needs to be explained. This is not a quarrel. It is understandable for novices to be censored. The forum respects the facts, just as black can never become white.

[Trojane]

OP, I know you stated what your motivations for making this thread are, but the whole thing just comes off as an attempt to earn merits.  Maybe I'm getting even more jaded about these kinds of threads (including the self-congratulatory ones when members rank up), but I'm starting to become a lot more careful about newer members and what their real motivations likely are--especially after threads like this one.

No doubt you put in a lot of effort here, but most of this stuff has been discussed in the past....so what is this, a thread to discuss everything from the evil fee to having a mobile-friendly version of the forum?  Or is it just a thread in which you voice your thoughts on the forum?  If it's the latter, why bother?  If it's the former, well, good luck with it but it's not necessary.

Hate to be negative, but I'm getting a strange vibe lately from threads like this.

You feel it isn't necessary even for newbies like me?
People are registering into the site everyday.,it is imperative that they know about these things
Well,all the same ,nice idea
And what's this strange vibe that you feel?
Trojans💎

[Pmalek]

I don't understand your implication (the italicized part), what does it mean?

He is probably suggesting that if someone is required to pay an evil fee, he/she shouldn't have to do it immediately after the registration. Instead, the payment should be delayed to a later date. But that would then mean that the admins would have to keep tags on who does what, and if they notice that a member who needs to pay the fee is trying to join a bounty/signature campaign or wants to sell something, he first has to pay the fee. What if that member never does any of that? He could then use the forum without having paid any fee. That system wouldn't work.

[LFC_Bitcoin]

People are always looking for change. Nothing is ever totally perfect. We're lucky to have found bitcointalk.org & be active here, this forum is one of the very best sources of info regarding bitcoin. I mean even to just share a space that the great satoshi was present is an honour.

Like I said nothing is perfect so maybe it’s just a good idea to be happy with what we have here. Without this forum I wouldn’t have created the wealth that I have, that’s for sure. You can learn so much here from OG’s who are willing to share their knowledge & experience.

Personally I couldn’t care less about the forum looking old school & having no app or specialised mobile version. I use my mobile quite often to post here.

[GeorgeJohn]

Btw you are not being calm you created this thread hours after Ratimov's thread .

THIS THREAD HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH RATIMOV THREAD. I was not even aware of Ratimov thread until @The Pharmacist drew my attention to it through his comment above. Anything that doesn't appear in B/H, Bitcoin Discussion and Meta is always difficult for me to see because I rarely visit other boards for now.

Okay OP, I'm not accusing you of anything. Your point no.4 just seems like you're making a statement concerning the issues raised on that thread.

The reaction of KingsDen is absolutely right, because two or more bitcointalk users mentioned his name, so he has to portray his point of view in order to defend himself, so whenever someone alleged accusations on, you have the momentum or the right to prove whoever who alleged accusation to you wrong in a diluted manner without causing a nuisance.

[KingsDen]

I don't understand your implication (the italicized part), what does it mean?

He is probably suggesting that if someone is required to pay an evil fee, he/she shouldn't have to do it immediately after the registration. Instead, the payment should be delayed to a later date. But that would then mean that the admins would have to keep tags on who does what, and if they notice that a member who needs to pay the fee is trying to join a bounty/signature campaign or wants to sell something, he first has to pay the fee. What if that member never does any of that? He could then use the forum without having paid any fee. That system wouldn't work.

If the member never does any of the above, that means the member ought not to pay for any evil. Because it can be said, the member is not gaining anything from the forum save knowledge.

Like I said nothing is perfect so maybe it’s just a good idea to be happy with what we have here. Without this forum I wouldn’t have created the wealth that I have, that’s for sure. You can learn so much here from OG’s who are willing to share their knowledge & experience.

I attest to this always. I am everly grateful I found this forum. The worse we can classify this forum is 'second to the best', I would not give it the best because I have not seen all the forums in the world.
Without being biased, you can attest that the forum you see today was not the one you met as a newbie. There is obviously a change(s) be it -ve or +ve. If not the forum itself, how about the behaviours of the forum users? That is the reason people hunger for change. Because in a dynamic world, when you refuse to change things to your own direction or desire, they will tend to change themselves in the other direction.
However, I am grateful I have found this forum. I have never made a dime from here, but I believe when the time is ripped, I'll not be an exception.

[CryptopreneurBrainboss]

I crave for a forum I will look back at in 5yrs time and see positive differences.

If some of what you wrote is truly the dream you have for the forum then it means you still have alot to learn from you stay on the forum. So you want the forum to host AMA and give this worthless projects the spots light to scam gullible speculators. Do you know how many people will blinding just go invest in such project just because bitcointallk is giving them a platform (like endorsing them) as that's what must noobs will think.

This is a Forum for education, for the fact a board for projects to announce themselves is already available, that's enough. We don't need the forum turning into some business center for hyping project that were just created for the purpose of stealing your Bitcoin meanwhile the forum was created for hangout purpose and discussing issues surrounding Bitcoin which should involves it's safe keep.

Speaking on evil fee, so basically what you're seeing the forum as is a place to join campaign, Bounty or start a business? I'm basing my judgement on your statement;

maybe before the user joins a signature campaign, bounty campaign or do business, he would have to pay the evil fee.

that's a wrong misconception of what the forum is. Education is been paid for so if your purpose of joining the forum is to learn, some little fees for that is no biggie.

[KingsDen]

...that's a wrong misconception of what the forum is. Education is been paid for so if your purpose of joining the forum is to learn, some little fees for that is no biggie.

Very well in agreement with this. Anyone hunger of crypto knowledge can conveniently pay the fees and more. I thought the evil fee was not introduced because of knowledge gaining, else it would have been called a registration fee and made compulsory. I am also thinking that if it is because of knowledge gaining, no ip will be eviled. The vast majority of the people that committed the evil did so because of the aforementioned by me.

[Pmalek]

If the member never does any of the above, that means the member ought not to pay for any evil. Because it can be said, the member is not gaining anything from the forum save knowledge.

He is not gaining anything in a monetary sense, but he still gets a lot. Like you said, he gains knowledge. Users also get help and advice if they ask for it. They can take part in discussions, get merits and merit others. Getting rid of the evil fee would be the best thing to do. Instead, scammers and scamming should be strictly forbidden. Scammers should be banned to make the marketplace and overall forum experience better for everyone.   

[KingsDen]

Instead, scammers and scamming should be strictly forbidden. Scammers should be banned to make the marketplace and overall forum experience better for everyone.   

Well said sir.
I believe it is achievable, though it will be a had job for the moderators, but with the synergy of reputable members, it can be done.

[lovesmayfamilis]

Scammers should be banned to make the marketplace and overall forum experience better for everyone.   

Do you agree that this is a utopia? In the real world, has anyone succeeded? And this is the Internet. Here there are more scammers than ordinary honest people who sincerely believe in love on the Internet, in investments, in winnings offered by casinos, etc.
Good and evil always go side by side. But we must be able to go with whom, and who to believe. Here, people are divided into smart and stupid, and forums. Even where there is a strict screening of users, a paid entrance, with a fairly serious fee, there is deception. And by the way, there is more of it, because if the forum is closed and paid, they teach not entirely correct things.
This forum is open to everyone. But he still assumes an adult audience that can read the rules, think, analyze. Or, in the end, learn from the mistakes of others.

[Pmalek]

Do you agree that this is a utopia? In the real world, has anyone succeeded?

Succeeded in banning and making scammers unwelcome on internet forums? Yeah that's achievable.

A long time ago before torrents were as popular as they are today and people downloaded from sites like Rapidshares and Megaupload, I remember coming across a warez forum that gave away free premium accounts to some hosting sites. No idea how they got them, but I doubt they used legal methods. Looking back at it now, they were probably obtained by phishing or maybe carding. That forum had a marketplace where you could buy all kinds of stuff. Scamming and scammers were not allowed. The point is, a forum that supports pirated software, games, and movies had no tolerance for scammers. Why would Bitcointalk have?     

[Daniel91]

If the member never does any of the above, that means the member ought not to pay for any evil. Because it can be said, the member is not gaining anything from the forum save knowledge.

He is not gaining anything in a monetary sense, but he still gets a lot. Like you said, he gains knowledge. Users also get help and advice if they ask for it. They can take part in discussions, get merits and merit others. Getting rid of the evil fee would be the best thing to do. Instead, scammers and scamming should be strictly forbidden. Scammers should be banned to make the marketplace and overall forum experience better for everyone.   

I totally agree.
From personal experience I know very well that 2 of my friends gave up registering and participating in this forum due to evil fee.
They certainly weren’t scammers and never even in their lives had an open bitcoin wallet or did anything else in crypto.
Unfortunately, they have fallen victim to others who have abused this forum because they accidentally used the same IP.
After this experience they completely gave up crypto and for that I'm very sorry.
I think that another way should be found to prevent the registration of possible scammers on this forum.
This forum is all that Pmalek mentioned but even more than that, a place where people meet and become lifelong friends.
This forum is a community of people who have the same or similar values, ideals and thoughts and should be open to everyone.

[CryptopreneurBrainboss]

Very well in agreement with this. Anyone hunger of crypto knowledge can conveniently pay the fees and more. I thought the evil fee was not introduced because of knowledge gaining, else it would have been called a registration fee and made compulsory. I am also thinking that if it is because of knowledge gaining, no ip will be eviled. The vast majority of the people that committed the evil did so because of the aforementioned by me.

Well I wasn't saying the evil fee was introduced for educational purposes like registration fee or all that but I'm just giving you a sense of how things can be reasoned. If you know the value of what you're getting by been a part;f the forum then you won't mind paying a few bucks for that or will you prefer losing thousands out there through avoided scams that you can easily identify by been in the forum?.

You have spent some time on the forum, examine yourself are you better now then you were before you joined the forum, have you gained more that what you would have paid for 'the evil fee' assuming you got sanctioned and needed to make the payment before been part of the forum. You're not in a campaign yet so currently you haven't gained any monetary value but lets look at the knowledge aspect as you'll be the best judge in this aspect.

Do you know the hundreds of scams that have been exposed on the forum even before the rest of the industry realized they were scams, it was on the forum most of the well know crypto scams like bitconnect was strongly advice against patronizing even do the rest of the industry were welcoming it just as most other hyped trends are been advised against joining today as they're mostly a waste do time.

[KingsDen]

Very well in agreement with this. Anyone hunger of crypto knowledge can conveniently pay the fees and more. I thought the evil fee was not introduced because of knowledge gaining, else it would have been called a registration fee and made compulsory. I am also thinking that if it is because of knowledge gaining, no ip will be eviled. The vast majority of the people that committed the evil did so because of the aforementioned by me.

You have spent some time on the forum, examine yourself are you better now then you were before you joined the forum, have you gained more that what you would have paid for 'the evil fee' assuming you got sanctioned and needed to make the payment before been part of the forum. You're not in a campaign yet so currently you haven't gained any monetary value but lets look at the knowledge aspect as you'll be the best judge in this aspect.

Obviously I'll be the best judge here. Within the few months I have been in the forum, I have improved crypto knowledge wise. I did not know how it happened but I believe it happened gradually and rapidly. I discovered this when I involved in cryptocurrencies talk with my friends. I began to oppose what I supported before, I became the enlightened speak among them. I was so happy at myself, the credit goes to this forum and her users.

Do you know the hundreds of scams that have been exposed on the forum even before the rest of the industry realized they were scams, it was on the forum most of the well know crypto scams like bitconnect was strongly advice against patronizing even do the rest of the industry were welcoming it just as most other hyped trends are been advised against joining today as they're mostly a waste do time.

I do not know about bitconnect or any other scam prior my registration on this forum. So, I have no option than to agree with this.

[lovesmayfamilis]

I think that another way should be found to prevent the registration of possible scammers on this forum.
This forum is all that Pmalek mentioned but even more than that, a place where people meet and become lifelong friends.
This forum is a community of people who have the same or similar values, ideals and thoughts and should be open to everyone.

In addition to limiting by IP address, it is quite possible to calculate the number of your users through browser fingerprints. Probably everyone knows that browsers leave thousands of fingerprints in our systems, which remain in memory for a long time. And if some prints, especially smart users, can fake and change, that is, those that are almost impossible to change.
Using this system, you can easily ban fraudulent accounts on the forum, given that not everyone is ready to change their hardware for the sake of registering on the forum.

https://pixelprivacy.com/resources/browser-fingerprinting/

[Pmalek]

<Snip>

There are two things about your reply that I don't agree with:

1. You are saying that the knowledge and information available here should be worth the evil fee that some users have to pay. It is if you have spent a lot of time here and know what you are getting in return. A new user who just got here can't and shouldn't be asked to value that. And besides, the information is either free or it isn't. Even if you don't register, you can still read everything that is being written. You just can't participate in the discussions. So, you aren't really paying for the information. You are paying for the right to post.

2. Forcing some users to pay while others don't have to isn't exactly the best thing to do. Imagine if a whole range of Nigerian IPs were banned and subjected to evil fees. I assume you and your countrymen would complain about it and say that it doesn't make sense and that it isn't fair. And it wouldn't be.   

[LoyceV]

I thought the evil fee was not introduced because of knowledge gaining, else it would have been called a registration fee and made compulsory.

Most real users don't have a problem with evil fees. I can just create a new account from my own IP address without problems, but if I use Tor, I have to pay the maximum.

You may get the impression from complaints on the forum that everyone hits the fee and it's never warranted, but this is selection bias: the fee is more rare, and the vast majority of accounts that hit it should not be whitelisted.

From personal experience I know very well that 2 of my friends gave up registering and participating in this forum due to evil fee.

I'll try again: ask them to join again Tell them not to take it personally, and I'll happily whitelist them.

because they accidentally used the same IP

It's not only the exact IP, also the ones "around it" that get collect units of evil.

I think that another way should be found to prevent the registration of possible scammers on this forum.

That's not even the goal, scamming is allowed. It's spammers that get banned and cause evil on IPs.

I've whitelisted 26 users in 6 weeks. Two of them have earned a lot of Merit already, none of them have been banned yet. I can't possibly know if they're ban evaders, but I've rejected many times more requests than I've accepted.

In addition to limiting by IP address, it is quite possible to calculate the number of your users through browser fingerprints.

See:

A year or two ago I was researching fingerprinting techniques that'd work against pretty much anyone with JavaScript enabled, and I found several promising leads on that front. But then it occurred to me that I don't really want bitcointalk.org to be known as the #1 forum on the leading edge of de-anonymization technology, so I stopped pursuing it seriously...

[Welsh]

I've whitelisted 26 users in 6 weeks. Two of them have earned a lot of Merit already, none of them have been banned yet. I can't possibly know if they're ban evaders, but I've rejected many times more requests than I've accepted.

In comparison, I haven't had as many requests due to the nature of the thread that you made, but I've whitelisted 0 currently. Although, I haven't been actively reviewing it every day as I decided it would probably be better to add a gap to see how serious the user is, I did catch up with a few requests, and most never got back to me at all. Probably looking for a quick solution. Unfortunately, my methods probably are a little too robust, but as theymos says most users that hit the fee are for valid reasons,  and in my mind its up to them to convince me.

In addition to limiting by IP address, it is quite possible to calculate the number of your users through browser fingerprints. Probably everyone knows that browsers leave thousands of fingerprints in our systems, which remain in memory for a long time. And if some prints, especially smart users, can fake and change, that is, those that are almost impossible to change.
Using this system, you can easily ban fraudulent accounts on the forum, given that not everyone is ready to change their hardware for the sake of registering on the forum.

I would suspect that the majority of users here are browsing with Javascript turned off. I was prior to finding out it was cumbersome with moderation, and caused issues. However, because a lot of users use Tor here, NoScript is bundled in with the software, so there's an increased likelihood that they'll be blocking scripts.

[tranthidung]

1. You are saying that the knowledge and information available here should be worth the evil fee that some users have to pay. It is if you have spent a lot of time here and know what you are getting in return. A new user who just got here can't and shouldn't be asked to value that.

When I was in low rank, I had naive thoughts like projects that have their Announcement topics on the forum, and publish those topics from Copper Membership accounts are more trusted.

I felt like they afford to pay fee for Copper Membership so they are more serious with their projects here. I know they can buy accounts and run their scam projects a few months (I saw many scam projects participated in the forum like that). ANN threads were published by Hero or Senior members but they are bought accounts.

Later, I realized my thought is wrong.

I used to believe that Gincoin is a legit project and was curious why they did not buy a Copper membership. Months after the bear market, the project was abandoned.

And besides, the information is either free or it isn't. Even if you don't register, you can still read everything that is being written. You just can't participate in the discussions. So, you aren't really paying for the information. You are paying for the right to post.

You're partially right. Because to get information better, members should have be able to discuss. Like Question - Answer discussion that is more effective when you can ask more if you need.

[Welsh]

When I was in low rank, I had naive thoughts like projects that have their Announcement topics on the forum, and publish those topics from Copper Membership accounts are more trusted.

I felt like they afford to pay fee for Copper Membership so they are more serious with their projects here. I know they can buy accounts and run their scam projects a few months (I saw many scam projects participated in the forum like that). ANN threads were published by Hero or Senior members but they are bought accounts.

Later, I realized my thought is wrong.

Unfortunately, this is one of the problems whenever you introduce ranks/titles along with a purchase. For example, most users here would probably be more inclined to trust donators, although its been proven that they aren't always trustworthy.

I think it would of been better to introduce a payment to lessen restrictions just like Copper Member, but not have the title "Copper Member" associated with it. The only way users would be able to identify those that paid is because they'll be able to post images. I think that was probably a better way about it in hindsight, because despite how much campaigning there is to not trust users of particularly ranks automatically, newbies will anyway.

[KingsDen]

And besides, the information is either free or it isn't. Even if you don't register, you can still read everything that is being written. You just can't participate in the discussions. So, you aren't really paying for the information. You are paying for the right to post.

You're partially right. Because to get information better, members should have be able to discuss. Like Question - Answer discussion that is more effective when you can ask more if you need.

Better information could also be gotten without questioning and discussions. It all depends on individual differences. In my high school days, I had a genius friend who never questioned the teacher nor discuss with his mates but was very outstanding. Also, If you go to bookshop and buys a hardcopy book, I am sure you will have no one to question nor discuss with.
Some information are self explanatory, and even your intending questions might coincidentally be asked and answered by others. So, without posting one can actually gather enough information. Actually, the payers are paying for the right to post.

[LoyceV]

In comparison, I haven't had as many requests due to the nature of the thread that you made, but I've whitelisted 0 currently. Although, I haven't been actively reviewing it every day as I decided it would probably be better to add a gap to see how serious the user is, I did catch up with a few requests, and most never got back to me at all.

When I ask a follow-up question, I usually hear nothing anymore. I'm still trying to figure out what works best.

as theymos says most users that hit the fee are for valid reasons,  and in my mind its up to them to convince me.

They often ask me what to do to convince me. If I answer that, it would be far too easy.

[Welsh]

When I ask a follow-up question, I usually hear nothing anymore. I'm still trying to figure out what works best.

as theymos says most users that hit the fee are for valid reasons,  and in my mind its up to them to convince me.

They often ask me what to do to convince me. If I answer that, it would be far too easy.

Yeah, that's exactly what my experience has been. I'm not inclined to whitelist anyone unless they absolutely convince me they wouldn't be detrimental to the forum. Obviously, this is likely a little too strict, but at the end of the day they've already hit one of the barriers to registering, and giving the benefit of the doubt (as there is obvious legitimate reasons why they might hit it) would probably do more harm than good in the majority of the cases. My criteria isn't something that is rigid at the moment, its more if the user can convince me or not.

[Pmalek]

When I ask a follow-up question, I usually hear nothing anymore. I'm still trying to figure out what works best.

I wouldn't change that if I were you. The reason why they don't reply back is because they are probably thinking screw this guy, there are other people who can whitelist me. I'll just try to trick one of them. If the user is legit, they shouldn't have a problem answering a few questions and removing any doubts that are maybe there. 

[KingsDen]

When I ask a follow-up question, I usually hear nothing anymore. I'm still trying to figure out what works best.

This can be caused by the following;
1. The timeliness of reply or response between both ends: How prompt is the communication between the applicants and the whitelister. If a massage takes 3 to 5days before reply, it might lead to lost of interest by the applicants.
2. How difficult or flexible are the questions: In some social media groups (Facebook especially) the questions are always simple and automated. Once you provide the right answers you are automatically in the group. Questions like; "Are you are buyer or a seller", "Will you abide by the rules of the group". If some applicants who are friendly with these questions meet another format of questioning, it might be difficult for them to respond.

...My criteria isn't something that is rigid at the moment, its more if the user can convince me or not.

I think it would be better and easier to handle if there are no individual criteria. The people that can whitelist can develop some common and standard questions. Such that if an applicant decides to involve more than one whitelister, he/she will equally meets same questions.
Then there should be a common group by all the whitelisters were a general judgment can be passed on an applicant rather than discretionary judgment. Thank you!

[LoyceV]

1. The timeliness of reply or response between both ends: How prompt is the communication between the applicants and the whitelister. If a massage takes 3 to 5days before reply, it might lead to lost of interest by the applicants.

It varies from less than an hour up to a day.

2. How difficult or flexible are the questions: In some social media groups (Facebook especially) the questions are always simple and automated. Once you provide the right answers you are automatically in the group. Questions like; "Are you are buyer or a seller", "Will you abide by the rules of the group".

I don't ask questions, that would be too easy to give the answer I want to hear.

The people that can whitelist can develop some common and standard questions. Such that if an applicant decides to involve more than one whitelister, he/she will equally meets same questions.

Question: what happens when an account farmer answers all questions correct, four times per day?

Then there should be a common group by all the whitelisters were a general judgment can be passed on an applicant rather than discretionary judgment.

If you can come up with a better system, I'd love to hear it. But keep in mind the possibility of abuse.

[KingsDen]

Question: what happens when an account farmer answers all questions correct, four times per day?

That is a limitation.

Then there should be a common group by all the whitelisters were a general judgment can be passed on an applicant rather than discretionary judgment.

If you can come up with a better system, I'd love to hear it. But keep in mind the possibility of abuse.

I don't think I have a better system than opening a self moderated thread, where all the whitelisters will assemble all the users whitelisted, then general community eyes will be on them. Even if they maneuvered to get whitrlisted, they can easily be noticed and  kicked out since all eyes are on them. Just another post whitelisting process.
As for abusing the process; I think you have a better way to handle it sir!

[Welsh]

I think it would be better and easier to handle if there are no individual criteria. The people that can whitelist can develop some common and standard questions. Such that if an applicant decides to involve more than one whitelister, he/she will equally meets same questions.
Then there should be a common group by all the whitelisters were a general judgment can be passed on an applicant rather than discretionary judgment. Thank you!

Yeah, that's exactly the point I was getting across. No doubt, certain users that are whitelisting will be easier to convince, but I'm not a fan of bringing in a standardized approach, because this could quickly become abused. In my eyes, they have to convince me in whatever way they can. Honestly, at this point it seems like the majority of the users I would whitelist would be those recommended by already established users here, as there hasn't been a lot of success with the current conversations.