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Author Topic: My Dream Bitcointalk Forum  (Read 685 times)
Pmalek
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August 30, 2021, 02:10:24 PM
 #21

If the member never does any of the above, that means the member ought not to pay for any evil. Because it can be said, the member is not gaining anything from the forum save knowledge.
He is not gaining anything in a monetary sense, but he still gets a lot. Like you said, he gains knowledge. Users also get help and advice if they ask for it. They can take part in discussions, get merits and merit others. Getting rid of the evil fee would be the best thing to do. Instead, scammers and scamming should be strictly forbidden. Scammers should be banned to make the marketplace and overall forum experience better for everyone.   

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KingsDen (OP)
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August 30, 2021, 08:41:42 PM
 #22

Instead, scammers and scamming should be strictly forbidden. Scammers should be banned to make the marketplace and overall forum experience better for everyone.   
Well said sir.
I believe it is achievable, though it will be a had job for the moderators, but with the synergy of reputable members, it can be done.

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August 31, 2021, 07:52:32 AM
 #23

Scammers should be banned to make the marketplace and overall forum experience better for everyone.   

Do you agree that this is a utopia? In the real world, has anyone succeeded? And this is the Internet. Here there are more scammers than ordinary honest people who sincerely believe in love on the Internet, in investments, in winnings offered by casinos, etc.
Good and evil always go side by side. But we must be able to go with whom, and who to believe. Here, people are divided into smart and stupid, and forums. Even where there is a strict screening of users, a paid entrance, with a fairly serious fee, there is deception. And by the way, there is more of it, because if the forum is closed and paid, they teach not entirely correct things.
This forum is open to everyone. But he still assumes an adult audience that can read the rules, think, analyze. Or, in the end, learn from the mistakes of others.

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Pmalek
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August 31, 2021, 10:12:30 AM
 #24

Do you agree that this is a utopia? In the real world, has anyone succeeded?
Succeeded in banning and making scammers unwelcome on internet forums? Yeah that's achievable.

A long time ago before torrents were as popular as they are today and people downloaded from sites like Rapidshares and Megaupload, I remember coming across a warez forum that gave away free premium accounts to some hosting sites. No idea how they got them, but I doubt they used legal methods. Looking back at it now, they were probably obtained by phishing or maybe carding. That forum had a marketplace where you could buy all kinds of stuff. Scamming and scammers were not allowed. The point is, a forum that supports pirated software, games, and movies had no tolerance for scammers. Why would Bitcointalk have?     

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Daniel91
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August 31, 2021, 11:48:12 AM
 #25

If the member never does any of the above, that means the member ought not to pay for any evil. Because it can be said, the member is not gaining anything from the forum save knowledge.
He is not gaining anything in a monetary sense, but he still gets a lot. Like you said, he gains knowledge. Users also get help and advice if they ask for it. They can take part in discussions, get merits and merit others. Getting rid of the evil fee would be the best thing to do. Instead, scammers and scamming should be strictly forbidden. Scammers should be banned to make the marketplace and overall forum experience better for everyone.   

I totally agree.
From personal experience I know very well that 2 of my friends gave up registering and participating in this forum due to evil fee.
They certainly weren’t scammers and never even in their lives had an open bitcoin wallet or did anything else in crypto.
Unfortunately, they have fallen victim to others who have abused this forum because they accidentally used the same IP.
After this experience they completely gave up crypto and for that I'm very sorry.
I think that another way should be found to prevent the registration of possible scammers on this forum.
This forum is all that Pmalek mentioned but even more than that, a place where people meet and become lifelong friends.
This forum is a community of people who have the same or similar values, ideals and thoughts and should be open to everyone.

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August 31, 2021, 09:03:25 PM
 #26

Very well in agreement with this. Anyone hunger of crypto knowledge can conveniently pay the fees and more. I thought the evil fee was not introduced because of knowledge gaining, else it would have been called a registration fee and made compulsory. I am also thinking that if it is because of knowledge gaining, no ip will be eviled. The vast majority of the people that committed the evil did so because of the aforementioned by me.

Well I wasn't saying the evil fee was introduced for educational purposes like registration fee or all that but I'm just giving you a sense of how things can be reasoned. If you know the value of what you're getting by been a part;f the forum then you won't mind paying a few bucks for that or will you prefer losing thousands out there through avoided scams that you can easily identify by been in the forum?.

You have spent some time on the forum, examine yourself are you better now then you were before you joined the forum, have you gained more that what you would have paid for 'the evil fee' assuming you got sanctioned and needed to make the payment before been part of the forum. You're not in a campaign yet so currently you haven't gained any monetary value but lets look at the knowledge aspect as you'll be the best judge in this aspect.

Do you know the hundreds of scams that have been exposed on the forum even before the rest of the industry realized they were scams, it was on the forum most of the well know crypto scams like bitconnect was strongly advice against patronizing even do the rest of the industry were welcoming it just as most other hyped trends are been advised against joining today as they're mostly a waste do time.

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August 31, 2021, 10:42:00 PM
 #27

Very well in agreement with this. Anyone hunger of crypto knowledge can conveniently pay the fees and more. I thought the evil fee was not introduced because of knowledge gaining, else it would have been called a registration fee and made compulsory. I am also thinking that if it is because of knowledge gaining, no ip will be eviled. The vast majority of the people that committed the evil did so because of the aforementioned by me.

You have spent some time on the forum, examine yourself are you better now then you were before you joined the forum, have you gained more that what you would have paid for 'the evil fee' assuming you got sanctioned and needed to make the payment before been part of the forum. You're not in a campaign yet so currently you haven't gained any monetary value but lets look at the knowledge aspect as you'll be the best judge in this aspect.

Obviously I'll be the best judge here. Within the few months I have been in the forum, I have improved crypto knowledge wise. I did not know how it happened but I believe it happened gradually and rapidly. I discovered this when I involved in cryptocurrencies talk with my friends. I began to oppose what I supported before, I became the enlightened speak among them. I was so happy at myself, the credit goes to this forum and her users.

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Do you know the hundreds of scams that have been exposed on the forum even before the rest of the industry realized they were scams, it was on the forum most of the well know crypto scams like bitconnect was strongly advice against patronizing even do the rest of the industry were welcoming it just as most other hyped trends are been advised against joining today as they're mostly a waste do time.
I do not know about bitconnect or any other scam prior my registration on this forum. So, I have no option than to agree with this.

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September 01, 2021, 07:32:37 AM
 #28


I think that another way should be found to prevent the registration of possible scammers on this forum.
This forum is all that Pmalek mentioned but even more than that, a place where people meet and become lifelong friends.
This forum is a community of people who have the same or similar values, ideals and thoughts and should be open to everyone.


In addition to limiting by IP address, it is quite possible to calculate the number of your users through browser fingerprints. Probably everyone knows that browsers leave thousands of fingerprints in our systems, which remain in memory for a long time. And if some prints, especially smart users, can fake and change, that is, those that are almost impossible to change.
Using this system, you can easily ban fraudulent accounts on the forum, given that not everyone is ready to change their hardware for the sake of registering on the forum.

https://pixelprivacy.com/resources/browser-fingerprinting/

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Pmalek
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September 01, 2021, 11:26:31 AM
Merited by tranthidung (1)
 #29

<Snip>
There are two things about your reply that I don't agree with:

1. You are saying that the knowledge and information available here should be worth the evil fee that some users have to pay. It is if you have spent a lot of time here and know what you are getting in return. A new user who just got here can't and shouldn't be asked to value that. And besides, the information is either free or it isn't. Even if you don't register, you can still read everything that is being written. You just can't participate in the discussions. So, you aren't really paying for the information. You are paying for the right to post.

2. Forcing some users to pay while others don't have to isn't exactly the best thing to do. Imagine if a whole range of Nigerian IPs were banned and subjected to evil fees. I assume you and your countrymen would complain about it and say that it doesn't make sense and that it isn't fair. And it wouldn't be.   

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September 01, 2021, 11:41:36 AM
 #30

I thought the evil fee was not introduced because of knowledge gaining, else it would have been called a registration fee and made compulsory.
Most real users don't have a problem with evil fees. I can just create a new account from my own IP address without problems, but if I use Tor, I have to pay the maximum.

Quote from: theymos
You may get the impression from complaints on the forum that everyone hits the fee and it's never warranted, but this is selection bias: the fee is more rare, and the vast majority of accounts that hit it should not be whitelisted.

From personal experience I know very well that 2 of my friends gave up registering and participating in this forum due to evil fee.
I'll try again: ask them to join again Smiley Tell them not to take it personally, and I'll happily whitelist them.

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because they accidentally used the same IP
It's not only the exact IP, also the ones "around it" that get collect units of evil.

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I think that another way should be found to prevent the registration of possible scammers on this forum.
That's not even the goal, scamming is allowed. It's spammers that get banned and cause evil on IPs.

I've whitelisted 26 users in 6 weeks. Two of them have earned a lot of Merit already, none of them have been banned yet. I can't possibly know if they're ban evaders, but I've rejected many times more requests than I've accepted.

In addition to limiting by IP address, it is quite possible to calculate the number of your users through browser fingerprints.
See:
A year or two ago I was researching fingerprinting techniques that'd work against pretty much anyone with JavaScript enabled, and I found several promising leads on that front. But then it occurred to me that I don't really want bitcointalk.org to be known as the #1 forum on the leading edge of de-anonymization technology, so I stopped pursuing it seriously...

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September 01, 2021, 01:14:16 PM
Merited by Pmalek (1)
 #31

I've whitelisted 26 users in 6 weeks. Two of them have earned a lot of Merit already, none of them have been banned yet. I can't possibly know if they're ban evaders, but I've rejected many times more requests than I've accepted.
In comparison, I haven't had as many requests due to the nature of the thread that you made, but I've whitelisted 0 currently. Although, I haven't been actively reviewing it every day as I decided it would probably be better to add a gap to see how serious the user is, I did catch up with a few requests, and most never got back to me at all. Probably looking for a quick solution. Unfortunately, my methods probably are a little too robust, but as theymos says most users that hit the fee are for valid reasons,  and in my mind its up to them to convince me.

In addition to limiting by IP address, it is quite possible to calculate the number of your users through browser fingerprints. Probably everyone knows that browsers leave thousands of fingerprints in our systems, which remain in memory for a long time. And if some prints, especially smart users, can fake and change, that is, those that are almost impossible to change.
Using this system, you can easily ban fraudulent accounts on the forum, given that not everyone is ready to change their hardware for the sake of registering on the forum.
I would suspect that the majority of users here are browsing with Javascript turned off. I was prior to finding out it was cumbersome with moderation, and caused issues. However, because a lot of users use Tor here, NoScript is bundled in with the software, so there's an increased likelihood that they'll be blocking scripts.
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September 01, 2021, 01:25:21 PM
 #32

1. You are saying that the knowledge and information available here should be worth the evil fee that some users have to pay. It is if you have spent a lot of time here and know what you are getting in return. A new user who just got here can't and shouldn't be asked to value that.
When I was in low rank, I had naive thoughts like projects that have their Announcement topics on the forum, and publish those topics from Copper Membership accounts are more trusted.

I felt like they afford to pay fee for Copper Membership so they are more serious with their projects here. I know they can buy accounts and run their scam projects a few months (I saw many scam projects participated in the forum like that). ANN threads were published by Hero or Senior members but they are bought accounts.

Later, I realized my thought is wrong.

I used to believe that Gincoin is a legit project and was curious why they did not buy a Copper membership. Months after the bear market, the project was abandoned.

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And besides, the information is either free or it isn't. Even if you don't register, you can still read everything that is being written. You just can't participate in the discussions. So, you aren't really paying for the information. You are paying for the right to post.
You're partially right. Because to get information better, members should have be able to discuss. Like Question - Answer discussion that is more effective when you can ask more if you need.

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September 01, 2021, 01:37:19 PM
 #33

When I was in low rank, I had naive thoughts like projects that have their Announcement topics on the forum, and publish those topics from Copper Membership accounts are more trusted.

I felt like they afford to pay fee for Copper Membership so they are more serious with their projects here. I know they can buy accounts and run their scam projects a few months (I saw many scam projects participated in the forum like that). ANN threads were published by Hero or Senior members but they are bought accounts.

Later, I realized my thought is wrong.
Unfortunately, this is one of the problems whenever you introduce ranks/titles along with a purchase. For example, most users here would probably be more inclined to trust donators, although its been proven that they aren't always trustworthy.

I think it would of been better to introduce a payment to lessen restrictions just like Copper Member, but not have the title "Copper Member" associated with it. The only way users would be able to identify those that paid is because they'll be able to post images. I think that was probably a better way about it in hindsight, because despite how much campaigning there is to not trust users of particularly ranks automatically, newbies will anyway.
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September 01, 2021, 03:28:58 PM
 #34

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And besides, the information is either free or it isn't. Even if you don't register, you can still read everything that is being written. You just can't participate in the discussions. So, you aren't really paying for the information. You are paying for the right to post.
You're partially right. Because to get information better, members should have be able to discuss. Like Question - Answer discussion that is more effective when you can ask more if you need.

Better information could also be gotten without questioning and discussions. It all depends on individual differences. In my high school days, I had a genius friend who never questioned the teacher nor discuss with his mates but was very outstanding. Also, If you go to bookshop and buys a hardcopy book, I am sure you will have no one to question nor discuss with.
Some information are self explanatory, and even your intending questions might coincidentally be asked and answered by others. So, without posting one can actually gather enough information. Actually, the payers are paying for the right to post.

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September 01, 2021, 04:15:13 PM
 #35

In comparison, I haven't had as many requests due to the nature of the thread that you made, but I've whitelisted 0 currently. Although, I haven't been actively reviewing it every day as I decided it would probably be better to add a gap to see how serious the user is, I did catch up with a few requests, and most never got back to me at all.
When I ask a follow-up question, I usually hear nothing anymore. I'm still trying to figure out what works best.

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as theymos says most users that hit the fee are for valid reasons,  and in my mind its up to them to convince me.
They often ask me what to do to convince me. If I answer that, it would be far too easy.

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September 01, 2021, 09:39:08 PM
 #36

When I ask a follow-up question, I usually hear nothing anymore. I'm still trying to figure out what works best.

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as theymos says most users that hit the fee are for valid reasons,  and in my mind its up to them to convince me.
They often ask me what to do to convince me. If I answer that, it would be far too easy.
Yeah, that's exactly what my experience has been. I'm not inclined to whitelist anyone unless they absolutely convince me they wouldn't be detrimental to the forum. Obviously, this is likely a little too strict, but at the end of the day they've already hit one of the barriers to registering, and giving the benefit of the doubt (as there is obvious legitimate reasons why they might hit it) would probably do more harm than good in the majority of the cases. My criteria isn't something that is rigid at the moment, its more if the user can convince me or not.
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September 02, 2021, 10:02:05 AM
 #37

When I ask a follow-up question, I usually hear nothing anymore. I'm still trying to figure out what works best.
I wouldn't change that if I were you. The reason why they don't reply back is because they are probably thinking screw this guy, there are other people who can whitelist me. I'll just try to trick one of them. If the user is legit, they shouldn't have a problem answering a few questions and removing any doubts that are maybe there. 

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KingsDen (OP)
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September 02, 2021, 02:50:07 PM
 #38

When I ask a follow-up question, I usually hear nothing anymore. I'm still trying to figure out what works best.
This can be caused by the following;
1. The timeliness of reply or response between both ends: How prompt is the communication between the applicants and the whitelister. If a massage takes 3 to 5days before reply, it might lead to lost of interest by the applicants.
2. How difficult or flexible are the questions: In some social media groups (Facebook especially) the questions are always simple and automated. Once you provide the right answers you are automatically in the group. Questions like; "Are you are buyer or a seller", "Will you abide by the rules of the group". If some applicants who are friendly with these questions meet another format of questioning, it might be difficult for them to respond.
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...My criteria isn't something that is rigid at the moment, its more if the user can convince me or not.

I think it would be better and easier to handle if there are no individual criteria. The people that can whitelist can develop some common and standard questions. Such that if an applicant decides to involve more than one whitelister, he/she will equally meets same questions.
Then there should be a common group by all the whitelisters were a general judgment can be passed on an applicant rather than discretionary judgment. Thank you!

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September 02, 2021, 04:53:31 PM
 #39

1. The timeliness of reply or response between both ends: How prompt is the communication between the applicants and the whitelister. If a massage takes 3 to 5days before reply, it might lead to lost of interest by the applicants.
It varies from less than an hour up to a day.

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2. How difficult or flexible are the questions: In some social media groups (Facebook especially) the questions are always simple and automated. Once you provide the right answers you are automatically in the group. Questions like; "Are you are buyer or a seller", "Will you abide by the rules of the group".
I don't ask questions, that would be too easy to give the answer I want to hear.

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The people that can whitelist can develop some common and standard questions. Such that if an applicant decides to involve more than one whitelister, he/she will equally meets same questions.
Question: what happens when an account farmer answers all questions correct, four times per day?

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Then there should be a common group by all the whitelisters were a general judgment can be passed on an applicant rather than discretionary judgment.
If you can come up with a better system, I'd love to hear it. But keep in mind the possibility of abuse.

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KingsDen (OP)
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September 02, 2021, 05:39:45 PM
 #40

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Question: what happens when an account farmer answers all questions correct, four times per day?

That is a limitation.

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Then there should be a common group by all the whitelisters were a general judgment can be passed on an applicant rather than discretionary judgment.
If you can come up with a better system, I'd love to hear it. But keep in mind the possibility of abuse.


I don't think I have a better system than opening a self moderated thread, where all the whitelisters will assemble all the users whitelisted, then general community eyes will be on them. Even if they maneuvered to get whitrlisted, they can easily be noticed and  kicked out since all eyes are on them. Just another post whitelisting process.
As for abusing the process; I think you have a better way to handle it sir! Grin

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