Why I wouldn't buy Ledger Nano S ever again?

[dkbit98]

Ledger Nano S hardware wallet was first released in 2016 and it's arguably still one of the most popular hardware wallets in the world with millions of sold devices.

I will post here my reasons why I wouldn't buy this device again, and I will post ways how you can try to fix some of the Nano S problems (if possible).

1. Closed Source
Ledger Nano S is closed source device with no intention to change that in future, that means it could potentially store hidden backdoor for years.
Firmware updates are often causing more problems and only few closed circle of people is working on it.
There are even cases when updating devices with new firmware simply breaks the device and makes it unusable.

How to Fix this? Switch to other open source hardware wallets, or ask Ledger developers to release their code.



2. Small Memory
Memory for Ledger Nano S is very small with around 144kb 138Kb, but even bigger problem is that size of apps for coins is growing all the time and memory stays the same.
With recent 2.0.0 update size of Bitcoin app has grown from 40kb to 64kb, that means you can support less coins on your device at the same time.
Developers now claim this is only temporary but I don't believe them because it's getting bigger constantly.

How to Fix this? Uninstall apps that you don't use on regular basis, or use only Bitcoin app.



3. Display dies after few years
Ledger Nano S is using cheap OLED display that will die or start to dim usually after few years even if you don't use device so often.

How to Fix this? Easiest way to prolong life of your display is to change and reduce brightness in settings and keep device in dry place.
If you already have faulty display you can order new cheap display online or locally and replace it yourself following this video instructions.
Make sure you are purchasing this display with 12 PIN connector.
Some people are even using smartphone cameras to see characters on dim display.
Last and most expensive option is to buy new hardware wallet and import your seed words.



4. Cheap plastic body
Nano S is made from cheap plastic that gets broken easily if you hold it stronger when removing USB cable.

How to Fix this? You can try to superglue the plastic, but you should be extra careful when handling and removing cable.
Maybe it's possible to make custom 3d printed case or order it online from other people, but I couldn't find one myself.



5. Nano S could soon be discontinued
Ledger have a history of defunct and discontinued products like Ledger HW.1, Ledger Nano, Ledger Unplugged and Ledger Blue.
One more thing is that Nano S is using old Micro-USB to USB Type-A cable, and most of devices switched to USB Type-C.

How to Fix this? Simple. Don't buy Ledger Nano S.



6. Bad Multisig support
Ledger is probably one of the worst hardware wallets you can use for your multisig setup.
You can't display own or cosigner xpub on demand, it's not showing Electrum Zpub and Ypub formats, xpubs are not registered inside the device, and ledger is not
showing multisig receive address for verification, it always assumes that cosigners are trustworthy.

How to Fix this? Use other wallets for your multisig setup and avoid Ledger and Trezor for this purpose.

7. Leaking personal information
Ledger leaked personal information for millions of their customers leaking everything including full names, address and phone numbers.

How to Fix this? Buy in local reseller or use PO boxes when ordering your device.

8. Bad support
Ledger has one of the worst support I ever saw, that is very slow and they probably have small stuff so there is really no fix for this, except if they hire more people.


Price of Nano S is currently around 60€ (+shipping) and that is not a lot today but considering all I mentioned above I don't think it's worth the money.
It's still a better option that Nano X epic fail with battery issues, and probably better option than keeping coins on hot wallet.

Are there any alternative hardware wallets? Yes there are, but you need to pay a bit more money and get better quality and open source device.
Do your own research.

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[NeuroticFish]

I also have Nano S and, while I knew from start that's closed source and the memory is small. Meanwhile the cheap plastic is the smallest problem, while the leaking of personal info and the awful handling of that situation made me kinda stop recommending Nano S.
The bad multisig was something I've read between the lines, but didn't give much attention - I always thought that if I want to multisig then I'll buy one more HW, from another maker (probably Trezor) and see then what is possible and that's not.

So now my bigger concern is the screen issue I didn't know about (hence thank you for bringing it into discussion!).
How many years is the average for "normal use" after which it's expected to become difficult to read?

[dkbit98]

How many years is the average for "normal use" after which it's expected to become difficult to read?

People who purchased Nano S devices in 2017 are starting to see first issues now, that means cheap display is probably meant to last 4 years more or less.
Ledger warranty is two years and they are not responsible for your device after that, but like I said you can fix this ordering new display for $2 or $3, don't waste any money purchasing new ledger.
However, there could be an issue with their new closed source firmware breaking devices, like this guy reported few days ago (post is being downvoted on purpose):

I have been in crypto for a while and trusted Ledger. I bought a Ledger Nano S back in 2017 and after a compulsory firmware update the screen stopped working. The characters in the screen are not visible UNLESS I turn off all the lights and get to see some very light bright on the screen. I share this problem with Ledger support team and the only advise is to restore the wallet but no other solution as the ledger was not under warranty anymore.

One of my friends have the same problem, this is an issue with the ledger and has nothing to do with the users. You cant trust a wallet which after some time and due to internal issues basically stopped working. More than anything, their support team wont provide any solution at all.

https://www.reddit.com/r/ledgerwallet/comments/qqsyov/ledger_nano_s_not_working/

[NeuroticFish]

People who purchased Nano S devices in 2017 are starting to see first issues now, that means cheap display is probably meant to last 4 years more or less.
Ledger warranty is two years and they are not responsible for your device after that, but like I said you can fix this ordering new display for $2 or $3, don't waste any money purchasing new ledger.
However, there could be an issue with their new closed source firmware breaking devices, like this guy reported few days ago (post is being downvoted on purpose):

I don't want to transform possible coincidences into conspiracies. While it may be possible, a much easier explanation is that those components are cheap and made so. It's the current consumerism era's fault.
However, it's their loss. While I am not sure I'd be capable of changing that display myself, I am pretty sure that I will no order HW from them again.

I'll keep in mind next time I power the Nano S to reduce the brightness. Thanks.

[SFR10]

Memory for Ledger Nano S is very small with around 144kb, but even bigger problem is that size of apps for coins is growing all the time and memory stays the same.

It seems that their latest firmware has also increased in size. I read a bunch of old reports on Reddit that they had 156 to 160 kb of free storage for the apps.

Nano S is made from cheap plastic that gets broken easily if you hold it stronger when removing USB cable.

In addition to that, there's one user who's saying he/she got a crack when it wasn't in use:

• Since then, I have plugged it into my pc maybe 5 times, and I am an extremely careful person. Today I saw that a crack has developed in its plastic case. I don't know how this is even possible (last time I used it it was ok), but it seems to me the crack has appeared in a stress concentration location (from inner corner to outer corner), and ledger's materials have never been its strongest point (just take a look at the cheap usb cable).

Ledger has one of the worst support I ever saw, that is very slow and they probably have small stuff so there is really no fix for this, except if they hire more people.

They're also a bunch of liars ^{[e.g. here's one case]} who love to give false hopes.

considering all I mentioned above I don't think it's worth the money.

I totally agree ^{[it's a shame, they could've easily fixed the first half of issues from your list, but for some reason, they've done nothing so far]}.

[Pmalek]

People who purchased Nano S devices in 2017 are starting to see first issues now, that means cheap display is probably meant to last 4 years more or less.

I guess I could soon be affected then. I think I got mine somewhere in 2017/2018. So far I haven't noticed any screen issues or problems with the plastic cover. I am generally not a person who breaks electronic devices because he drops them or carries them in his pockets, so I don't think those types of things will affect me.

I did update the Bitcoin and Ethereum apps yesterday and was surprised when I noticed that the usual "update all" button was greyed out. Couldn't figure out why until I noticed the difference in the app sizes. I had to uninstall a third app I had to update those of BTC and ETH.   

[dkbit98]

It seems that their latest firmware has also increased in size. I read a bunch of old reports on Reddit that they had 156 to 160 kb of free storage for the apps.

Yeah, developers claim they rewritten apps and everything else from scratch to enable reverse compatibility for future updates.
If you ask me this is a poor man choice for a hardware wallet and classical used car sellers scheme.

In addition to that, there's one user who's saying he/she got a crack when it wasn't in use

Plastic could happen with plastic because of cold/hot temperatures and depends how long he used ledger before the crack happened.

I did update the Bitcoin and Ethereum apps yesterday and was surprised when I noticed that the usual "update all" button was greyed out. Couldn't figure out why until I noticed the difference in the app sizes. I had to uninstall a third app I had to update those of BTC and ETH.   

They never announce anything when size increases and they leave it for customers to get ''surprised'' and first post about that issue.
It's totally misleading that Ledger writes on their websites how Nano S is supporting 1100+ coins and app to 6 apps installed on your device, but in reality you can't install more than 2 or 3 apps.

[Pmalek]

It's totally misleading that Ledger writes on their websites how Nano S is supporting 1100+ coins and app to 6 apps installed on your device, but in reality you can't install more than 2 or 3 apps.

It always depends on the combination of apps. If you have one standalone app like Bitcoin with multiple dependent apps, it should work. The storage capacity of the Nano S is 144 KB.

An example:
Standalone BTC app - 64 KB.
Dependent apps - DOGE, BCH, Dash, Digibyte, Zcash, BTC Gold, etc. are all 2 KB each.
That makes a total of 76 KB with 7 apps installed.

But yeah if you are going to use multiple standalone apps like BTC, ETH, TRON, Stellar, etc., you aren't going to be able to install more than 2, maybe 3 if you are lucky.

[PrivacyG]

I still have a Nano S in my drawer but I would rather not use it anymore.  I currently only use it for certain accounts.  Makes me happy to see you people moving away from closed-source hardware and from a questionable company.

On a positive note, my device has not had any kind of hardware failures yet and I did use it heavily for years straight.  I reduced my brightness from the start though, so keep that in mind.  However, there is a negative side to it.  My Nano S has been moving awfully slow after I updated it to one of the latest firmware versions.  I can not remember precisely, but I think it was around six months ago.  I used to navigate really fast through the menu before, but they seem to have added a button input delay which makes the Passphrase setup a pain.  Takes years now to fill in the Passphrase, while before I could have done it within a minute or less.

The storage capacity is one more big minus.  I constantly had to go through Ledger Live every time I needed to work with more than 3 coins.  Deleting and re-installing apps every time is just an unnecessary waste of time that could have been avoided from the start.  I also do not like that I have to go through Ledger Live every time I need to manage Ledger's apps.  There is no Tor option, Ledger Live is at least partially closed source as far as I am concerned and so on.  Not worth it.

The customer data leak put an end to any of my potential future Ledger orders.  That was a clear sign for me that they are not trustworthy and I shall steer away from their products.  Trezor's or airgapped computer for the win.

-
Regards,
PrivacyG

[dkbit98]

Dependent apps - DOGE, BCH, Dash, Digibyte, Zcash, BTC Gold, etc. are all 2 KB each.
That makes a total of 76 KB with 7 apps installed.

That is because all those 2 KB apps are just clones and forks of original coins, for example all you mentioned are forks of Bitcoin, and ETC, BNB and other crap are forks of Ethereum.
My point is that their main Nano S selling point for supporting bunch of altcoins does not stand anymore, until they fix this or upgrade with some new device and I think they are working on something like that.

However, there is a negative side to it.  My Nano S has been moving awfully slow after I updated it to one of the latest firmware versions.  I can not remember precisely, but I think it was around six months ago.  I used to navigate really fast through the menu before, but they seem to have added a button input delay which makes the Passphrase setup a pain.  Takes years now to fill in the Passphrase, while before I could have done it within a minute or less.

It does take time to import passphrase but I never before heard someone having this issue with ledger slow speed, and installing latest firmware could fix your issue, but there is always a chance this could break your device and unusable.

Deleting and re-installing apps every time is just an unnecessary waste of time that could have been avoided from the start.  I also do not like that I have to go through Ledger Live every time I need to manage Ledger's apps.  There is no Tor option, Ledger Live is at least partially closed source as far as I am concerned and so on.  Not worth it.

I think that their model with separate apps for each coin also have some security flaws compared to other hardware wallets, and it's just a waiting ticking bomb.
More apps you have it creates more problems and you can't really have Bitcoin only firmware, even if you don't install any other app they still exist in background.

The customer data leak put an end to any of my potential future Ledger orders.  That was a clear sign for me that they are not trustworthy and I shall steer away from their products.

That would be enough for anyone to stop buying their devices, but I guess people only learn slow and the hard way.

[PrivacyG]

My point is that their main Nano S selling point for supporting bunch of altcoins does not stand anymore, until they fix this or upgrade with some new device and I think they are working on something like that.

Adding Bluetooth to the new device, which leaves an open door for potential attacks, and not learning their storage size mistake makes me presume their up and coming product will only get worse.  A slick design is useless when there are new, more "modern" approaches you come with that are actually anything but secure.

Also, their main point of supporting bunch of altcoins turned into their main point of supporting all sorts of shitcoins.  They seem to care more about that than adding more functionality to their Live app for instance.  The Tor and Full Node features have been highly requested by the community to no avail.

It does take time to import passphrase but I never before heard someone having this issue with ledger slow speed, and installing latest firmware could fix your issue, but there is always a chance this could break your device and unusable.

This is interesting, I have looked this issue up before but found nothing about it.  I just thought it was only me who really cared.  If you go to the Passphrase option, can you switch between letters instantly as in there is no delay between the button pushes?  I do not seem to be able to switch between more than one to two characters per second.

I think that their model with separate apps for each coin also have some security flaws compared to other hardware wallets, and it's just a waiting ticking bomb.
More apps you have it creates more problems and you can't really have Bitcoin only firmware, even if you don't install any other app they still exist in background.

That is for sure.  It is an unnecessary headache Trezor found a great solution for.  Unfortunately however, as far as rumors go, I heard Trezor's upcoming product will also feature a closed source chip which makes me wonder how many alternatives we will really be left with in the future.

-
Regards,
PrivacyG

[dkbit98]

If you go to the Passphrase option, can you switch between letters instantly as in there is no delay between the button pushes?  I do not seem to be able to switch between more than one to two characters per second.

I don't know because I never used passphrase option in ledger wallet and I don't like it's connection with pin code.

Unfortunately however, as far as rumors go, I heard Trezor's upcoming product will also feature a closed source chip which makes me wonder how many alternatives we will really be left with in the future.

I think that your information is wrong, Trezor won't release their new hardware wallet device before end of 2022, and they are working on their own Open Source secure element with Tropic Square.
In latest interview they said that they will sell this secure elements to anyone who want's to buy them, including other hardware wallet manufacturers.

[Pmalek]

My Nano S has been moving awfully slow after I updated it to one of the latest firmware versions.  I can not remember precisely, but I think it was around six months ago.  I used to navigate really fast through the menu before, but they seem to have added a button input delay which makes the Passphrase setup a pain.

They seem to have added a deliberate delay between button presses. It's noticeable also when you first connect the device and enter your PIN to unlock it. I remember reading about something like that in the past, but I can't find any source now to confirm it and I don't remember what reasons they gave for doing that. Have you checked in the settings menu if there is an option to speed it up? I will have to generate a new BTC addy later today so I will take a look myself and report back if I find something.  

That is because all those 2 KB apps are just clones and forks of original coins, for example all you mentioned are forks of Bitcoin, and ETC, BNB and other crap are forks of Ethereum.

Yeah, I know that. I was just trying to show that it is still possible to have multiple apps installed if they are dependent on the stand-alone app. Dependent (Ledger's term) is nothing else than a fork.

My point is that their main Nano S selling point for supporting bunch of altcoins does not stand anymore, until they fix this or upgrade with some new device and I think they are working on something like that.

I agree, but I don't think there is much that they can do with the Nano S and its limited storage capacity. New updates take up more and more space and the Nano S looks like an old Celeron processor that is getting beaten by newer, faster, and better competitors.  

Adding Bluetooth to the new device, which leaves an open door for potential attacks, and not learning their storage size mistake makes me presume their up and coming product will only get worse.

I didn't like the Bluetooth feature the moment I read about it. I look at it the same way as you do. A potential attack vector for the future. But what issues do you have with the storage space of the Nano X. Compared to the Nano S, it's been increased significantly!

I think that your information is wrong, Trezor won't release their new hardware wallet device before end of 2022, and they are working on their own Open Source secure element with Tropic Square.

His information is not completely wrong. The secure element is not going to be 100% open source.

In Trezor's own words:

Together, we are building a new company: Tropic Square, the creators of the next TRuly OPen Integrated Circuit. This new entity’s purpose is to deliver a chip as open-source as possible.

https://blog.trezor.io/introducing-tropic-square-why-transparency-matters-a895dab12dd3
As open-source as possible means that certain elements of it will be kept a secret.

[dkbit98]

As open-source as possible means that certain elements of it will be kept a secret.

Please don't make your own definition for open source 
Open source hardware definition is clear, they are transparent and there is no some ''secret elements'' in them, oh and you are quoting some old blog post from 2020,
and new information I heard confirmed what I am saying, but let's wait the end of 2022 and see, if we are alive and well by them.
You can't change a license just a little bit, add common clause and still call it open source like Coldcard wallet is doing with their device, and if something like this happens with Trezor I will be the first to call them out.

"Open hardware," or "open source hardware," refers to the design specifications of a physical object which are licensed in such a way that said object can be studied, modified, created, and distributed by anyone.

https://opensource.com/resources/what-open-hardware

[Pmalek]

Please don't make your own definition for open source 

I wasn't. I am just interpreting their own words "as open source as possible". According to my understanding of English, that doesn't mean fully/completely/100% open-source. I could be wrong, but that's what they said. The "as possible" part could mean anything. As much as the manufacturing company allows, as much as some license agreement (if there is one) allows, or something else. 

oh and you are quoting some old blog post from 2020,
and new information I heard confirmed what I am saying, but let's wait the end of 2022 and see, if we are alive and well by them.

I couldn't find anything newer about the topic. Can you post a link so I can check newer and updated claims?

[dkbit98]

I wasn't. I am just interpreting their own words "as open source as possible".

You said phrase ''certain elements of it will be kept a secret'' and that was not mentioned anywhere by trezor developers or me, so it was your own interpretation
I suggest first reading the link with definition and comparison with closed hardware to learn what open source hardware really means.
I posted a video in one of my previous posts in this this thread and I am following all trezor news regarding this subject.

PS
Now let's get back to topic of ledger nano s.

[Pmalek]

You said phrase ''certain elements of it will be kept a secret'' and that was not mentioned anywhere by trezor developers or me, so it was your own interpretation

Yes, it was my interpretation of what they said and the word combinations they used. It would really be cool if the chip ends up being completely open-source and I hope it will for the future of the entire hardware wallet industry.

And thanks for the video. It's a rather long one so I will watch it in episodes.

[dkbit98]

New bug crap issue from Ledger with latest device updates is that Fido U2Fapp can't be installed on ledger Nano, and what is even worse is that update removes Fido U2F app itself!
Multiple customers are reporting this issue on ledger reddit page, and developers are currently investigating this issue.
Imagine you use Fido U2F on your ledger for some important log in, well you are screwed now, thanks to ledger dev team :/
If you are using Fido U2F - don't update ledger.

Can't install Fido U2F since updating my ledger Nano S.
https://www.reddit.com/r/ledgerwallet/comments/r6y2e8/cant_install_fido_u2f_since_updating_my_ledger/

What happened to FIDO
Firmware update abd it got rid of the Fido app... I need it. How to get it back
https://www.reddit.com/r/ledgerwallet/comments/r7tvqz/what_happened_to_fido/

Big problem with fido
https://www.reddit.com/r/ledgerwallet/comments/r7j1h2/big_problem_with_fido/

FIDO APP NOT VISIBLE in Ledger Live 2.35.2 Nano S 2.1.0
https://www.reddit.com/r/ledgerwallet/comments/r7gghr/fido_app_not_visible_in_ledger_live_2352_nano_s/

[SFR10]

Imagine you use Fido U2F on your ledger for some important log in, well you are screwed now, thanks to ledger dev team :/

That's really messed up! Is there a way to check and track if they've been using different developers lately ^{[from their Github page]}?
^{- I don't know my way around GitHub.}
It appears that the memory issue that you've described before, took another hit ^{[thanks to the latest firmware]}:

• Looks like it uses up more memory. Now I don't have enough space to install 3 particular apps simultaneously, which was how I had it set up before the update.
  

• It really is beyond annoying. It is only possible to have 2 non-dependent apps on the device at one time now.
  
  @Ledger please try to reduce the firmware size - the 2.0 and 2.1 updates have severely degraded the utility of the device for most users.

• My nano S now has the space to hold a grand total of 1 app.

[dkbit98]

That's really messed up! Is there a way to check and track if they've been using different developers lately?

I don't know, you can ask them and find list of contributors on every page in github but only for ledger live app, and their developers have multiple jobs so they are also reddit moderators  

It appears that the memory issue that you've described before, took another hit ^{[thanks to the latest firmware]}:

OMG I missed that, it's like they are slowly cooking the frog and reducing space for apps.
Maybe this is their way to stop production of nano s device and force everyone to switch to nano x or some other new device they release.
They can always blame small memory etc.