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Author Topic: Can civilization revert to a barter system  (Read 562 times)
fiulpro
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November 28, 2021, 06:14:27 PM
 #41

I do not about the barter system being a retro since the village my parents live in India, they do have a barter system even now in place. Which does mean that some communities are not so eager to let the system go. This method could be so much more beneficial if done on a bigger scale definately. Using blockchain would also help a lot, people can also sign contracts there and at the same time farmers for example can exchange their vegetables or fruits for pesticides etc, this could be a small system still in place for sure. Not reverting but using the system as well. People already exchange cryptocurrencies using third parties, they can do that using this system as well. Might be fun to see tho.

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November 28, 2021, 07:28:39 PM
 #42

The barter system continues to exist but most of the time, people want money in exchange of their items. You can find in some marketplaces about barter system, but I believe they usually end up selling it in exchange of fiat, because it is hard to find someone who has the item you want to exchange it with, and if the other party likes the item you are offering. This is why the barter system is something not sustainable in my opinion.
In my nation there is a barter system, an organization did it and basically instead of money you get barter credits, which is basically the same thing if you ask me but there are discounts which means you sell for discount as well as buy for discount because nobody really deals with money there and only in credits. It goes from one person to another at all times and never held at the organization's headquarters or warehouse or whatever. Simply put you have a farm?

You sell the goods for barter credit, then you use that credit to get seeds, tractor, water or whatever you want to and once again raise your crops if you want to. It doesn't work very well and not everyone uses it and the volume daily for them is about a million dollars or a bit higher. Sure that is not "nothing" but compared to how much fiat is used daily.. it is not even 0.00001% of what fiat is used for. Hence I believe barter is not really wanted by people neither. Can we switch? Sure, but do we want to? I don't think so.

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November 28, 2021, 09:27:42 PM
 #43

barter system guve you good way, to have a thing you need. if you want to have something, you just spend what you have. and this method cant be use for people who dont have any useful thing.
people already taste money, it can be what you want or what you need. you can have money with work, or provide service. you can have that thing with just spend a paper. but it some place, they still use barter to have other thing.
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November 29, 2021, 04:39:44 PM
 #44

We have a small informal market, close to my town ...where people barter with goods and services and it works very well. Can this be scaled to a country the size of the US?... I seriously doubt it.... (Transportation cost is too expensive and transfer of goods between people over long distances becomes too tedious and time consuming)

Image if you barter 2000 Carrots for 2000 eggs and you have to transport that between Miami and New York!  Roll Eyes  Also, who will determine the value of the goods and services...? (buyer / seller agreements with escrow)?

Let's not go back to the dark ages.... to try and reinvent the wheel.  Cheesy

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November 29, 2021, 09:30:00 PM
Last edit: November 30, 2021, 06:32:02 AM by DrBeer
 #45

Central banks have announced CBDCs (central bank issued digital currencies). Some have voiced concerns of CBDCs being tools of surveillance and control. If society experiences CBDCs and decides they do not like them, will it be possible to revert to a barter based system of trade?

A barter based system could be more susceptible to fraud and scams. Yet would allow for financial transaction outside of CBDC regulation. This could become a necessary step if some individuals and businesses are deplatformed by CBDC. Some businesses can only survive by paying workers under the table.

In practice a barter based system could function similar to ebay with an independent and reliable 3rd party form of escrow. (Blockchain based of course, we aren't complete savages and primitives  Cheesy)

Could a barter system be a worthwhile form of trade past the year 2022. Perhaps the next big leap forward will be a retro move backward into the past.

The barter scheme, theoretically, can take place in the modern world. For example, after the collapse of the USSR, due to currency instability, galloping inflation and total deficits, barter schemes worked. But it was ... how to say ... such a leap into the Middle Ages Smiley For example - the path of a pack of cigarettes to the counter of a store looks comical - for example, 10 carriages of cigarettes, exchanged for a lot of cars ... The owner of a batch of cars, became the owner of 10 carriages cigarettes. Then, conventionally, 1 carriage was exchanged for 100 tons of fertilizers, the owner of the fertilizers received a carriage of cigarettes. The carriage of cigarettes was changed, for example, for a new Mercedes and $ 30,000 (everything is given exclusively for example), and then the new owner of the carriage of cigarettes handed them over for sale, for example, on the scale of 1 city - tobacco kiosks, grocery stores, pubs, restaurants, etc. ...
How do you like this scheme? Smiley The advantage of money is the ability to express in it any measurable price of any product or service! Barter makes it very difficult ... But then again - in times like this when the country's global economy is almost completely destroyed and money does not fulfill its functions - barter will work

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November 30, 2021, 07:19:11 AM
 #46

It's really difficult not to mention that barter system can only work in such a limited ways, not to mention that our supply chain and our economy is heavily dependent on the current monetary system so we really can't support barter system. Plus wouldn't the greedy capitalist be mad about this kind of system because they won't be able to maximize their profits?
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November 30, 2021, 07:25:23 AM
 #47

Definitely not an easy task especially if you were talking about bartering multiple items or large items that are going to be logistically impossible to move around. That's why the gold standard has been created to prevent the moving of gold since its a nightmare to do.

Maybe it could serve as another alternative that would be permitted by local governments are even international trading of goods and services. Then people like us could utilize the bartering system as another option.

Maybe a decentralized type of service that evaluate different items and make sure that arbitraging wouldn't be that impactful negatively.

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November 30, 2021, 08:00:04 AM
 #48


In practice a barter based system could function similar to ebay with an independent and reliable 3rd party form of escrow. (Blockchain based of course, we aren't complete savages and primitives  Cheesy)

inefficient, makes it more difficult, and takes longer. despite all that is done with blockchain, barter is not a solution.

Could a barter system be a worthwhile form of trade past the year 2022. Perhaps the next big leap forward will be a retro move backward into the past.

impossible, because bartering is very difficult in modern society that prefers efficiency. they prefer to use currency as a payment system. instead of using items to get another items.


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November 30, 2021, 09:01:24 AM
 #49

Unless our civilization degrades to the primitive level, we will never come back to the system of barter. Such a system won't work in current economic conditions because (1) people are already aware of the existence of money, which means it would be stupid not to use more advanced technology, (2) even if humanity forgets for some reason there has been money, it will recreate it naturally because the most marketable good will emerge once again after humanity find out that indirect exchange is more convenient than a direct one. The other reason why we are unlikely to come back to the system of barter is the fact that there are already some specializations (services) that cannot be easily exchanged for goods. For example, you are a math teacher who wants to buy a car. In the system of barter, you would need to find a car seller who would like to learn math in exchange for a car. Doesn't it sound ridiculous? Money was created for reason.

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November 30, 2021, 06:36:02 PM
 #50

The barter scheme has another huge drawback - if working capital appears, then with a huge delay. Yes, there will be no business development without money - can you imagine how a full cycle of a barter scheme would look like, for example, a project to modernize blast furnaces at a steel plant? No, I’m not saying that this is not possible, it’s possible, but then any investment project will stretch for years due to the large time costs for the chain of barter transactions to achieve a result. And this = degradation of production, followed by degradation of the economy and the peak by the Stone Age Smiley

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December 01, 2021, 04:49:02 PM
 #51

It probably wouldn't work either way. There's the argument that governments might like things being untraceable for a few reasons: one of the main ones being so their donors can launder money and I could imagine a lot of politicians may have bought "private" or potentially illegal things in the past they'd want to keep hidden.

A barter based system would rely solely on how much you trust other people though or how much they trust you (or the contacts of both) and possibly how much time they have when a CBDC could just automate everything.

In my country there's an Island which they barter goods, no money included, item to item transaction. But it's in a rural country side and most of the people engaged in the system are farmers, fisherman and other livelihoods around a jungle or in the sea. The local government is letting them do this but once in a week, only on Sundays. At first I was shocked, couldn't believed what I saw, and then came to realized that those people where just living their lives how they wanted to, simple and transparent with no things to worries such as tax etc.
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December 01, 2021, 07:47:46 PM
 #52

It probably wouldn't work either way. There's the argument that governments might like things being untraceable for a few reasons: one of the main ones being so their donors can launder money and I could imagine a lot of politicians may have bought "private" or potentially illegal things in the past they'd want to keep hidden.

A barter based system would rely solely on how much you trust other people though or how much they trust you (or the contacts of both) and possibly how much time they have when a CBDC could just automate everything.

In my country there's an Island which they barter goods, no money included, item to item transaction. But it's in a rural country side and most of the people engaged in the system are farmers, fisherman and other livelihoods around a jungle or in the sea. The local government is letting them do this but once in a week, only on Sundays. At first I was shocked, couldn't believed what I saw, and then came to realized that those people where just living their lives how they wanted to, simple and transparent with no things to worries such as tax etc.

There is a logical explanation for this. On this island, these people, their "market" lacks goods and services with a large gap in "prices." For example, to change sweet potatoes for fish - it is enough just to compare the "exchange rate". Even exchanging a boat for fish - you can also compare the price and collect the required amount of fish. But how do you exchange, for example, your fish, for a car, provided that the owner of the car does not need fish, but you do need a car? Smiley

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December 01, 2021, 08:08:16 PM
 #53

It probably wouldn't work either way. There's the argument that governments might like things being untraceable for a few reasons: one of the main ones being so their donors can launder money and I could imagine a lot of politicians may have bought "private" or potentially illegal things in the past they'd want to keep hidden.

A barter based system would rely solely on how much you trust other people though or how much they trust you (or the contacts of both) and possibly how much time they have when a CBDC could just automate everything.

In my country there's an Island which they barter goods, no money included, item to item transaction. But it's in a rural country side and most of the people engaged in the system are farmers, fisherman and other livelihoods around a jungle or in the sea. The local government is letting them do this but once in a week, only on Sundays. At first I was shocked, couldn't believed what I saw, and then came to realized that those people where just living their lives how they wanted to, simple and transparent with no things to worries such as tax etc.

There is a logical explanation for this. On this island, these people, their "market" lacks goods and services with a large gap in "prices." For example, to change sweet potatoes for fish - it is enough just to compare the "exchange rate". Even exchanging a boat for fish - you can also compare the price and collect the required amount of fish. But how do you exchange, for example, your fish, for a car, provided that the owner of the car does not need fish, but you do need a car? Smiley
For old age or era then we know that this is something where we do start off but only few things  do exist on that particular time which could easily be  traded off with something unlike  now if barter system do comes back then i cant really imagine on how things turns  out to be complicated because
we cant really denied that there are things which cant really be  possible to be applied.

We cant just go back or revert into those stone or old age because  this is something not to  be applicable on the world on what we are living now.

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darewaller
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December 01, 2021, 08:08:36 PM
Merited by shogun47 (1)
 #54

Unless our civilization degrades to the primitive level, we will never come back to the system of barter. Such a system won't work in current economic conditions because (1) people are already aware of the existence of money, which means it would be stupid not to use more advanced technology, (2) even if humanity forgets for some reason there has been money, it will recreate it naturally because the most marketable good will emerge once again after humanity find out that indirect exchange is more convenient than a direct one. The other reason why we are unlikely to come back to the system of barter is the fact that there are already some specializations (services) that cannot be easily exchanged for goods. For example, you are a math teacher who wants to buy a car. In the system of barter, you would need to find a car seller who would like to learn math in exchange for a car. Doesn't it sound ridiculous? Money was created for reason.
It reminded me of the famous sentence "I do not know what world war 3 will be fought with, but the fourth one will be fought with sticks and stones". I mean humanity is capable of murdering everyone right now, isn't that a little bit scary? We are slowly doing it, boiling our world slowly and going to cause everyone to die in the future but it is so far off that our grandchildren will live to see that happen, which is why nobody cares unfortunately.

However, reality is that we are living in a world where we are having a bit of problem with nuclear war possibility as well. Not like it will happen right now, but we are "capable" of waging war and sending nukes to everywhere and kill everyone if we ever wanted to. This is the scary part, and if we ever create a war like that, or reach to a global warming level like that, then maybe barter system may happen.

.
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December 01, 2021, 09:50:58 PM
Last edit: December 07, 2021, 04:38:00 PM by wxa7115
 #55

I do not about the barter system being a retro since the village my parents live in India, they do have a barter system even now in place. Which does mean that some communities are not so eager to let the system go. This method could be so much more beneficial if done on a bigger scale definately. Using blockchain would also help a lot, people can also sign contracts there and at the same time farmers for example can exchange their vegetables or fruits for pesticides etc, this could be a small system still in place for sure. Not reverting but using the system as well. People already exchange cryptocurrencies using third parties, they can do that using this system as well. Might be fun to see tho.
Barter is still everywhere, if you help someone with an issue they are having it is not rare to receive a gift or dinner for your troubles, so we can say there was trade that took place and money was not necessary for it.

The problem is how to make this scale? How do you run the world economy by using the most primitive way to trade? And I really do not think this is possible, so a form of money will always be necessary to conduct trade at such a large scale.

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shogun47
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December 02, 2021, 03:18:38 PM
 #56

Unless our civilization degrades to the primitive level, we will never come back to the system of barter. Such a system won't work in current economic conditions because (1) people are already aware of the existence of money, which means it would be stupid not to use more advanced technology, (2) even if humanity forgets for some reason there has been money, it will recreate it naturally because the most marketable good will emerge once again after humanity find out that indirect exchange is more convenient than a direct one. The other reason why we are unlikely to come back to the system of barter is the fact that there are already some specializations (services) that cannot be easily exchanged for goods. For example, you are a math teacher who wants to buy a car. In the system of barter, you would need to find a car seller who would like to learn math in exchange for a car. Doesn't it sound ridiculous? Money was created for reason.
It reminded me of the famous sentence "I do not know what world war 3 will be fought with, but the fourth one will be fought with sticks and stones". I mean humanity is capable of murdering everyone right now, isn't that a little bit scary? We are slowly doing it, boiling our world slowly and going to cause everyone to die in the future but it is so far off that our grandchildren will live to see that happen, which is why nobody cares unfortunately.

However, reality is that we are living in a world where we are having a bit of problem with nuclear war possibility as well. Not like it will happen right now, but we are "capable" of waging war and sending nukes to everywhere and kill everyone if we ever wanted to. This is the scary part, and if we ever create a war like that, or reach to a global warming level like that, then maybe barter system may happen.

When you have a look at the list of spending for military purposes, I always ask myself whether the United States just do it for defensive reasons. Right now that might even be the case, but won't the day come where it makes more sense that the military must be worth the investment?

The quote you provided is quite true, but it might also be the case that it's not nuclear rockets we use to kill each other, but viruses and bacteria. I wonder though whether you are really right with your prognosis that "it is so far off that our grandchildren will live to see that happen...). It just needs one crazy dictator freaking out.

Then again it could also be that everyone on this planet knows by now that nobody would get away with a nuclear attack. It would indeed mean a temporary end to planet earth.



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darewaller
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December 02, 2021, 06:28:04 PM
 #57

When you have a look at the list of spending for military purposes, I always ask myself whether the United States just do it for defensive reasons. Right now that might even be the case, but won't the day come where it makes more sense that the military must be worth the investment?

The quote you provided is quite true, but it might also be the case that it's not nuclear rockets we use to kill each other, but viruses and bacteria. I wonder though whether you are really right with your prognosis that "it is so far off that our grandchildren will live to see that happen...). It just needs one crazy dictator freaking out.

Then again it could also be that everyone on this planet knows by now that nobody would get away with a nuclear attack. It would indeed mean a temporary end to planet earth.
USA is not at war with anyone right now, they have no wars that require them to spend that much money at all, it is quite obvious that they are doing it to get each other richer and that's it. They are a nation of military, how many nations is there out there who go up to soldiers and say "thank you for your service" at all times?

I mean it is obvious that they worship aggressive military movements a lot, hell Bush was losing elections and with one war he managed to keep his place, just because he started a war! In any other nation if you cause a war that usually means you are nearly out of the door because you would lose insane amount of votes when you start a war, in USA you gain votes when you start a war. So, they spending nearly 800 billion dollars a year on military is basically just a way to enrich politicians and warheads that has gun or similar stuff companies like lockheed.

.
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December 02, 2021, 06:38:40 PM
 #58

Central banks have announced CBDCs (central bank issued digital currencies). Some have voiced concerns of CBDCs being tools of surveillance and control. If society experiences CBDCs and decides they do not like them, will it be possible to revert to a barter based system of trade?

A barter based system could be more susceptible to fraud and scams. Yet would allow for financial transaction outside of CBDC regulation. This could become a necessary step if some individuals and businesses are deplatformed by CBDC. Some businesses can only survive by paying workers under the table.

In practice a barter based system could function similar to ebay with an independent and reliable 3rd party form of escrow. (Blockchain based of course, we aren't complete savages and primitives  Cheesy)

Could a barter system be a worthwhile form of trade past the year 2022. Perhaps the next big leap forward will be a retro move backward into the past.
Not at all, barter had some real limitations which were why it was negated by almost everyone. The biggest difficulty faced in barter is finding a person who needs the thing that you want to give and is ready to give the thing that you want to take. Even with Ebay and the whole technology in the picture, this would still be a very difficult task, therefore there is no way that this could come back. People are moving towards easier solutions and not the more difficult ones. Also I am very sure that with advent of blockchain such type of thing isn't required where we are even doing our transactions based on P2P Trust.

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dunfida
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December 02, 2021, 07:00:06 PM
 #59

I do not about the barter system being a retro since the village my parents live in India, they do have a barter system even now in place. Which does mean that some communities are not so eager to let the system go. This method could be so much more beneficial if done on a bigger scale definately. Using blockchain would also help a lot, people can also sign contracts there and at the same time farmers for example can exchange their vegetables or fruits for pesticides etc, this could be a small system still in place for sure. Not reverting but using the system as well. People already exchange cryptocurrencies using third parties, they can do that using this system as well. Might be fun to see tho.
Barter is still everywhere, if you help someone with an issue they are having it is not rare to receive a gift or dinner for your troubles, so we can say there was trade that took place and money was not necessary for it.

The problem is how too make this scale? How do you run the world economy by using the most primitive way to trade? And I really do not think this is possible, so a form of money will always be necessary to conduct trade at such a large scale.
Barter is indeed everywhere but only on micro transactions or only into  those goods which could really be in exchange or some people or companies do make out that system which is considerable but making it as a main one then it cant be possible.

We cant revert back into those old age on where everything should be in exchange.Hate to say but we do have that monetary system now which
been in means of fiat transactions which make things easier.

Going back into something old system would really make things hard.

omone1
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December 02, 2021, 08:24:22 PM
 #60

Trade by barter is just too complex and cumbersome. The huge cost that comes with it is too expensive to manage in this current society of easy lifestyle. Cryptocurrency will help solve the government CBDC. Shops only need need to accepting digital coins across nations of the world, then the government will be forced to support it.
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