Ledger Card Honeypot

[dkbit98]

Ledger just announced they are launching their own Crypto Life Card in partnership with Baanx Group, and it's going to be Visa Debit card.
Waiting list is open and available but knowing how Ledger handled multiple leaks before I would suggest that you use new and different email address for registration.
It's still unknown what countries and regions will be available, but whitelist button is not working for me so I can't see more details about this card.
For now we know that crypto will be converted to fiat at the time of purchase happens.

Is this a perfect honeypot or what?


https://cl-cards.com/waiting-list/

[1714965177]

1714965177

[1714965177]

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[bitmover]

Ledger just announced they are launching their own Crypto Life Card in partnership with Baanx Group, and it's going to be Visa Debit card.
Waiting list is open and available but knowing how Ledger handled multiple leaks before I would suggest that you use new and different email address for registration.
It's still unknown what countries and regions will be available, but whitelist button is not working for me so I can't see more details about this card.
For now we know that crypto will be converted to fiat at the time of purchase happens.

Is this a perfect honeypot or what?


https://cl-cards.com/waiting-list/

There are some cards like that in Brazil.

The problem with this kind of card is that they are usually linked to some exchange, where you need to do KYC.

So, you want to buy 50 USD item with your card? That is basically selling 50 USD in an exchange (with KYC). Everything will happen instantly.

Taxes will apply.

Personally, I prefer just to sell how much bitcoin I want, transfer to my bank account and use it how I find best.

[NeuroticFish]

Is this a perfect honeypot or what?

Not necessarily. There are quite a number of working crypto card businesses, so basically Ledger has missed the start by a great margin.
At this point it will depend greatly on convenience and fees. Then we can see if it can become a honeypot or just another business attempt made by Ledger to earn more money (more or less similar with them selling Cryptosteel products).

[dkbit98]

I don't know what moderator moved this topic to hardware wallet section, but I had to move it back here, this is crypto DEBIT CARD Service Discussion and we even have Big list of debit cards in same section.

[mk4]

I’m not planning on using such service any time soon, but to be fair — every cryptocurrency platform that requires AML/KYC is a honeypot. I don’t see this as something worse than the Binance’s and the BlockFi’s.

They better be damn sure leaks wouldn’t happen again though.

[Rikafip]

It's still unknown what countries and regions will be available, but whitelist button is not working for me so I can't see more details about this card.

Some info about first countries that will have access to their debit card leaked. And whitelisting worked for me normally, I got the email.

Expected to launch in the U.K., Germany, and France in the first quarter of 2022 — and in the U.S. in the second quarter — the card will be connected to the company’s desktop and mobile app Ledger Live, enabling users to conveniently buy, swap, and stake their crypto.

Is this a perfect honeypot or what?

Doubt it, but one can never be too careful, especially not after their data leak. But just in case, I am using a brand new email and if I decide to try it out, will get a new Ledger that will be used for that only.

[DireWolfM14]

I've had a competitor's card for nearly two years now, and it's really soured my opinion of crypto-backed credit/debit cards.  If it gets implemented properly it could really be a convenient option, but the company I've used (BitPay) is absolute shit.  They charge you for the card, they charge two Tx fees to fund the card, the card is practically useless at 99% of the places I want to use it, and then I recently learned they charge a fee for every month you don't use it.

Unfortunately I don't have any dirty money to launder, so I'm more concerned about usability, practicality, and affordability.  Normally I would be willing to sign up for these kinds of services, but I'm not going to sign up for this one.  I'll wait to see how the service operates and if they get good reviews from clients.  Not to mention, Ledger hasn't exactly been great at keeping their customer's private information secure, and this will obviously require more critical data than just buying a hardware wallet from their web store.

[Rikafip]

Unfortunately I don't have any dirty money to launder, so I'm more concerned about usability, practicality, and affordability. 

When it comes to bolded part, nothing beats Binance card. The biggest downside is that you will have to go through KYC on Binance in order to get one, but if that isn't a problem for you then that's the way to go if you want to spend crypto in an easy way. 

I've been using it for about six months now and I am pretty satisfied with it. Daily limit is quite big (~8000 euro), fee only 0.9 (default 1% cashback basically covers that),works on every ATM (daily limit for that is only 290 euro) and is pretty reliable. It will get occasionally denied for no obvious reason, but other than that it works pretty good.

I think that it's a good thing that Ledger is getting into debit card market as more competition should mean lower fees and better service and that's what we all want.

[FatFork]

Unfortunately I don't have any dirty money to launder, so I'm more concerned about usability, practicality, and affordability. 

When it comes to bolded part, nothing beats Binance card. The biggest downside is that you will have to go through KYC on Binance in order to get one, but if that isn't a problem for you then that's the way to go if you want to spend crypto in an easy way. 

Doesn't the same thing apply to all other crypto debit cards? I mean, is there a card that doesn't require us to go through KYC?

[Rikafip]

Doesn't the same thing apply to all other crypto debit cards? I mean, is there a card that doesn't require us to go through KYC?

True, AFAIK all debit card issuers ask for KYC but I was more aiming at Binance as I know that majority of people here are reluctant ( for a good reason) to give them their personal info. Unfortunately, I had to go through KYC in order to get access to my account; ~3 years ago my mobile phone where I had Google authenticator suddenly stopped working (couldn't fixed it either), and I couldn't find that recovery code, meaning I was locked out of the account. So in order to prove the ownership as I entered my real name there, I had to go through KYC.

If I didn't go through KYC already I probably wouldn't do it just for the sake of Binance card, even though I must say that it's much easier to spend crypto that way, than paying 5-7% fee on BATM and then depositing the money on your bank account like I did for a couple of years. That fee may seem ok when you are cashing out smaller amounts like few hundred euro, but when you want to cash out let's say 10k euro and BATM takes one average Croatian monthly salary (700 euro) as a fee, that fucking hurts.

[hugeblack]

Does anyone know whether the company is obliged to disclose all the data of customers who buy their devices, since providing banking services means providing some data, or is the company’s departments separate (them hardware wallets devices data will not effected)?

Overall, if a platform like Binance didn't succeed in promoting these cards, I don't think Ledger would, but at least this may be the general trend in the future (Bitcoin as a central reserve, second networks instead of the main Bitcoin network).

[dkbit98]

Some info about first countries that will have access to their debit card leaked. And whitelisting worked for me normally, I got the email.

I had to change my browser and it worked in the end, I used new email for registration and I am monitoring situation for any news.

It's normal thing that you need to pass KYC procedure when you are signing up for any debit card, but what puzzles me here is the fact that your ledger devices will be directly connected with this card.
I don't know what terms and fees they will offer and if that is better than binance card, but it's red alert for me to connect anything like this with cold wallets.
It's even more crazy when I hear Ledger CEO talking about plans to turn their hardware wallet into some weird phone like thing in future with debit card on top, this sounds like a circus to me

[Rikafip]

I don't see any benefit compared with other crypto debit/credit card, so i doubt this product will be popular.  New user is more likely to use card from more popular company (e.g. Binance) while veteran user would use card which already ready to use.

Well, in case of Ledger card your crypto will be on your hardware wallet and not on the exchange. For me that's a pretty big advantage, given that their fees and ease of use remains somewhat similar to Binance card.

I don't know what terms and fees they will offer and if that is better than binance card, but it's red alert for me to connect anything like this with cold wallets.

If I ever decide to try their card, I certainly won't connect my main cold wallet which I access once or twice per year. Instead, I will simply get another Ledger and once per month send the funds I plan to spend there, like I am doing now with Binance.  

[The Sceptical Chymist]

They better be damn sure leaks wouldn’t happen again though.

Pfft.  Even the biggest corporations with departments devoted to security can't seem to keep breaches from happening, so I have little faith that a company like Ledger would be able to be sure data leaks won't happen again.  With this new service, they've probably just painted a big red target on their backs for hackers.

Doesn't the same thing apply to all other crypto debit cards? I mean, is there a card that doesn't require us to go through KYC?

I've never used a crypto debit card, but I don't see how anyone (at least in the US or any country with strict banking laws) could use one without going through some kind of KYC process.  The government just wouldn't allow it, and Ledger sure as hell isn't going to run afoul of any government's regulations.

[DaveF]

I've had a competitor's card for nearly two years now, and it's really soured my opinion of crypto-backed credit/debit cards.  If it gets implemented properly it could really be a convenient option, but the company I've used (BitPay) is absolute shit.  They charge you for the card, they charge two Tx fees to fund the card, the card is practically useless at 99% of the places I want to use it, and then I recently learned they charge a fee for every month you don't use it.

Unfortunately I don't have any dirty money to launder, so I'm more concerned about usability, practicality, and affordability.  Normally I would be willing to sign up for these kinds of services, but I'm not going to sign up for this one.  I'll wait to see how the service operates and if they get good reviews from clients.  Not to mention, Ledger hasn't exactly been great at keeping their customer's private information secure, and this will obviously require more critical data than just buying a hardware wallet from their web store.

Bit of snark but did you read the fees section? It's always been there $5.00 / month after 90 days of non use, it's what you agreed to when you signed up.
Agree the card sucks for other reasons, don't get me wrong. But they never hid that fact.

Most of them have that or worse:
https://support.unbanked.com/support/solutions/articles/44000411370-what-are-the-fees-to-use-the-card-

There are others but most are similar.
The main advantage of BitPay is that you can use it to get cash back so outside of the crap exchange fees you can use it for BTC -> Cash (at least in the US) so there is that.

-Dave

[Pmalek]

I've never used a crypto debit card, but I don't see how anyone (at least in the US or any country with strict banking laws) could use one without going through some kind of KYC process.  The government just wouldn't allow it, and Ledger sure as hell isn't going to run afoul of any government's regulations.

No, that won't happen. They have not mentioned anything about KYC in their announcement for the upcoming service, so someone might get the wrong impression that since they don't need to undergo KYC to use their hardware wallet or Ledger Live, the same will apply to the debit card. It won't.

We can see from the limited list of supported countries that they will try it out in well-organized western nations and the EU. If they wanted chaos, they could test it in the Balkans, Nigeria, or Venezuela. 

[Hispo]

Assuming the crypto will indeed stay in a cold storage.

Would not that imply they may require us to provide xpubs to proof existence of funds?  

Correct me if I am wrong, but if it is the case collecting xpubs from users does not sound good.

[suchmoon]

I've had a competitor's card for nearly two years now, and it's really soured my opinion of crypto-backed credit/debit cards.

Never understood the appeal of these things. A good credit card that's accepted everywhere, 1-5% cash back, grace period, etc, works great for fiat purchases. Then I can pay the monthly bill by selling some corn if I'm so inclined. Much easier for tax returns too, ~12 transactions instead of hundreds.

Well, in case of Ledger card your crypto will be on your hardware wallet and not on the exchange.

Most likely you'll have to move it in order to use the card. So that probably means funding the card in advance or carrying the HW wallet with you along with the card and fiddling with it on the spot.

[DireWolfM14]

~

Bit of snark but did you read the fees section? It's always been there $5.00 / month after 90 days of non use, it's what you agreed to when you signed up.
Agree the card sucks for other reasons, don't get me wrong. But they never hid that fact.

Most of them have that or worse:
https://support.unbanked.com/support/solutions/articles/44000411370-what-are-the-fees-to-use-the-card-

There are others but most are similar.
The main advantage of BitPay is that you can use it to get cash back so outside of the crap exchange fees you can use it for BTC -> Cash (at least in the US) so there is that.

-Dave

Snark away, my skin callouses have been through worse.  I'm sure I did read the fee structure before I set up my account, but I figure I would be using the cash before that came up so it must have slipped my memory.  But then the struggle of where to use it keeps coming up.

A good credit card that's accepted everywhere, 1-5% cash back, grace period, etc, works great for fiat purchases. Then I can pay the monthly bill by selling some corn if I'm so inclined. Much easier for tax returns too, ~12 transactions instead of hundreds.

Excellent points, which are why I wasn't really heart-broken about the bitpay card not meeting my expectations.  

[DaveF]

I've had a competitor's card for nearly two years now, and it's really soured my opinion of crypto-backed credit/debit cards.

Never understood the appeal of these things. A good credit card that's accepted everywhere, 1-5% cash back, grace period, etc, works great for fiat purchases. Then I can pay the monthly bill by selling some corn if I'm so inclined. Much easier for tax returns too, ~12 transactions instead of hundreds.

Well, in case of Ledger card your crypto will be on your hardware wallet and not on the exchange.

Most likely you'll have to move it in order to use the card. So that probably means funding the card in advance or carrying the HW wallet with you along with the card and fiddling with it on the spot.

Drifting a bit from the original topic. I have been using the Coinbase card.
4% cashback in XLM, and if you use USDC to fund it, since it's a 'stablecoin', there are no tax implications.
Yes, you should be reporting the trades that you do to get the USDC before sending it to Coinbase, but they themselves do not report what you spend in USDC.
They will report all other transactions.
Hmmmm, they don't report the stablecoin that they created and support. Coming up in tomorrows news.....water is wet :-)

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5348368

-Dave

[ABCbits]

I don't see any benefit compared with other crypto debit/credit card, so i doubt this product will be popular.  New user is more likely to use card from more popular company (e.g. Binance) while veteran user would use card which already ready to use.

Well, in case of Ledger card your crypto will be on your hardware wallet and not on the exchange. For me that's a pretty big advantage, given that their fees and ease of use remains somewhat similar to Binance card.

Honestly i doubt about part where the coin stay on hardware wallet since the website also say "Top-up & manage your card easily and securely through Ledger Live". Hopefully they don't mean you must send coin to card first so the card automatically convert the coin to fiat at time of purchase.

[o_e_l_e_o]

This is horrendous.

The whole point of a hardware wallet is to keep your keys and your coins in your control, away from centralized services, away from custodial services, away from exchanges, and away from prying eyes; not make it easier for these centralized services to access your info. Earlier this week Ledger announced a partnership with Coinbase of all people (have we all forgotten the Hacking Team scandal already?), and now they are inevitably going to start wanting to collect KYC information to offer this bullshit crypto card? I'm sure this will make great profits for Ledger but it is antithetical to the very point of a hardware wallet. Not only that, but I'm absolutely certain that future development of Ledger products will now be influenced by these centralized services. Remember how quickly Brave went down the toilet once Binance started pulling the strings?

If I was undecided about which hardware wallet I was going to buy, these recently developments from Ledger would 100% convince me to buy a competitor's product.

[LoyceV]

It's even more crazy when I hear Ledger CEO talking about plans to turn their hardware wallet into some weird phone like thing in future with debit card on top, this sounds like a circus to me

It sounds like a very cool feature to be able to access all your crypto funds directly from your Hardware Card! Buying a car? No problem! Buying a jet? Just swipe your card, punch in your Ledger PIN, confirm the transaction and take off!
It also sounds like the dumbest and most insecure thing ever

Never understood the appeal of these things. A good credit card that's accepted everywhere, 1-5% cash back, grace period, etc, works great for fiat purchases. Then I can pay the monthly bill by selling some corn if I'm so inclined. Much easier for tax returns too, ~12 transactions instead of hundreds.

Note that this varies per country: I wouldn't have this problem as we don't have capital gains tax.

Of course, funding cards with crypto is only a temporary solution while shops don't accept crypto directly. Give it time

[dkbit98]

Would not that imply they may require us to provide xpubs to proof existence of funds?  

Correct me if I am wrong, but if it is the case collecting xpubs from users does not sound good.

It doesn't sound good at all, and I wouldn't suggest anyone to connect all their coins and accounts on ledger wallet with this new card, that is if they care about privacy at all.

4% cashback in XLM, and if you use USDC to fund it, since it's a 'stablecoin', there are no tax implications.

Are you paying those crazy high ethereum transaction fees for every transaction you make with your card?
I think it's not so smart at all to use something like this when transaction fees can go over $100, and ''stable'' don't sound so stable anymore.

This is horrendous.

The whole point of a hardware wallet is to keep your keys and your coins in your control, away from centralized services, away from custodial services, away from exchanges.

You know that ledger hardware wallet will also integrate with coinbase and  ithink that is even worse than connecting it to debit card.

It also sounds like the dumbest and most insecure thing ever

Yeah it is dumbest thing ever, and I think that majority of general crypto population is very exited about this feature, but we know from history that majority herd is never right or smart 

[suchmoon]

Of course, funding cards with crypto is only a temporary solution while shops don't accept crypto directly. Give it time

I would argue that these types of cards are counterproductive to the long term goal of having BTC/LN/etc accepted directly. It gets tangled up in the perpetual fiat nonsense of centralization, KYC, card fraud, etc. The Visa/MC duopoly get the card processing fees so we're basically subsidizing competitors of Bitcoin payment systems, along with entities that aren't exactly the best representatives of what Bitcoin is about (Binance, Coinbase, Ledger, ...).

[Rikafip]

Honestly i doubt about part where the coin stay on hardware wallet since the website also say "Top-up & manage your card easily and securely through Ledger Live". Hopefully they don't mean you must send coin to card first so the card automatically convert the coin to fiat at time of purchase.

Both you and @suchmoon made a good point, haven't really thought about that part. In this case it's not any better than Binance as again your money will be controlled by someone else.

Of course, funding cards with crypto is only a temporary solution while shops don't accept crypto directly. Give it time

That's how I see it and I think that people are impatient, and often forgetting how much was is done in a little bit more than a decade. Vast majority of those  who think that it's a piece of cake for business to decide accepting crypto and that adoption is way too slow probably never owned any serious business and had that kind of responsibility. Talk is cheap.

4% cashback in XLM, and if you use USDC to fund it, since it's a 'stablecoin', there are no tax implications.

Are you paying those crazy high ethereum transaction fees for every transaction you make with your card?
I think it's not so smart at all to use something like this when transaction fees can go over $100, and ''stable'' don't sound so stable anymore.

Why would he use Ethereum to transfer USDC since there are cheaper ways to do it.

[LoyceV]

Of course, funding cards with crypto is only a temporary solution while shops don't accept crypto directly. Give it time

I would argue that these types of cards are counterproductive to the long term goal of having BTC/LN/etc accepted directly. It gets tangled up in the perpetual fiat nonsense of centralization, KYC, card fraud, etc. The Visa/MC duopoly get the card processing fees so we're basically subsidizing competitors of Bitcoin payment systems, along with entities that aren't exactly the best representatives of what Bitcoin is about (Binance, Coinbase, Ledger, ...).

Maybe. But I have some hope left: shop owners won't accept LN if there are barely any customers who use it. Creditcards are widely accepted already, so if creditcards temporarily help more users to pay with crypto, it might lead to the situation where more and more users actually pay with crypto. And if that's the case, it suddenly becomes interesting for shop owners to cut out the middle man that takes a percentage out of each transaction, and accept LN directly.
Maybe I'm dreaming, but I'm still hopeful

I don't really consider it subsidizing competitors: Bitcoin gives the freedom to use it in different ways. Creditcard companies are now joining because there's money to be made, and maybe because they know they can still get an early adopter advantage before they're too late.

[o_e_l_e_o]

It also sounds like the dumbest and most insecure thing ever

They also say you will be able to borrow against the value of the coins on your hardware wallet and spend in fiat, which can only mean the coins on your hardware wallet are locked up in some kind of smart contract or escrow controlled by Ledger or Baanx, and are therefore not your coins at all.

-snip-

Completely agree. I have never and will never use such a card, but least of all do I want one linked to my hardware wallet! If I can't find a retailer who will accept bitcoin for some good or service I want, then I'll either buy a gift card or I'll just buy it in fiat and let them know I'd really like to pay in bitcoin. I'll sell all my bitcoin before I compromise my privacy and autonomy by using such a card, knowing that the card issuer is monitoring all my transactions and can censor me at any time, and I have to pay them fees for the privilege of all this.

And if that's the case, it suddenly becomes interesting for shop owners to cut out the middle man that takes a percentage out of each transaction, and accept LN directly.

Will shop owners even realize though? If you go and pay with your HSBC issued Visa debit card and I pay with my Baanx issued Visa debit card, even if for some reason the shop owner was going over every individual transaction on their statement, they aren't going to know that I've actually paid in bitcoin.

[suchmoon]

Maybe. But I have some hope left: shop owners won't accept LN if there are barely any customers who use it. Creditcards are widely accepted already, so if creditcards temporarily help more users to pay with crypto, it might lead to the situation where more and more users actually pay with crypto. And if that's the case, it suddenly becomes interesting for shop owners to cut out the middle man that takes a percentage out of each transaction, and accept LN directly.
Maybe I'm dreaming, but I'm still hopeful

I think it reduces the incentive for merchants to take bitcoins directly, as well as for users to ask for it, since Bitcoin already kinda sorta works for them via this card kludge.

I don't really consider it subsidizing competitors: Bitcoin gives the freedom to use it in different ways. Creditcard companies are now joining because there's money to be made, and maybe because they know they can still get an early adopter advantage before they're too late.

That's the thing. Bitcoin has a built-in direct payment method, and we're obfuscating it with extra layers of useless fluff that actually limits this freedom.

They also say you will be able to borrow against the value of the coins on your hardware wallet and spend in fiat, which can only mean the coins on your hardware wallet are locked up in some kind of smart contract or escrow controlled by Ledger or Baanx, and are therefore not your coins at all.

At that point might as well go full defi and use WBTC. Or even unsecured credit... no big deal, they already got your KYC, just give them a bit more details, like your credit score.

[LTU_btc]

Hardware wallet which supposed to be somewhat anonymous and debit card with all KYC stuff - not the best combination.
Seems that Ledger card will be available in few countries initially and my country isn't on the list. But it's obvious that they will try to expand in EU and USA.
It's important question how much it will cost, what fees they will have, will they offer cashback and etc, but I'm not planning to use it, even if they will have attractive offers. Don't really want to connect funds on my hardware wallet and KYC stuff.

Of course, funding cards with crypto is only a temporary solution while shops don't accept crypto directly. Give it time

How much time? 10, 20 years? I doubt that crypto payments on shops will become mainstream thing anytime soon. Crypto debit cards IMO is most convenient way to spend crypto and probably it's long term solution.

[Pmalek]

Ledger released some more information yesterday via social media on how their upcoming crypto card will work.
They confirmed our speculations that you won't be able to spend the coins directly from your hardware wallet and the Ledger Live app with the card. You will be required to top up the card by manually sending funds from your LL app to the card's account address. Those coins will then become spendable with the debit card.

https://www.facebook.com/Ledger/photos/a.802170596506829/4746992725357910/

[LoyceV]

You will be required to top up the card by manually sending funds from your LL app to the card's account address. Those coins will then become spendable with the debit card.

That's about the same as many other card providers offer.
Unless this still applies:

For now we know that crypto will be converted to fiat at the time of purchase happens.

I've never seen a debit card that holds a balance in Bitcoin and converts it only when you make a purchase.

[Pmalek]

Unless this still applies:

For now we know that crypto will be converted to fiat at the time of purchase happens.

Yeah, I think that still applies. I think dkbit98 was referring to this part when he wrote that:

Convert to fiat at time of purchase
Your crypto will only be converted at the time of purchase. Link your crypto wallets to the card in priority order for seamless spending.

https://cl-cards.com/waiting-list/

I've never seen a debit card that holds a balance in Bitcoin and converts it only when you make a purchase.

I have never used one so I wouldn't know the way they work exactly. But I don't see why their couldn't be a conversion from crypto into fiat at the moment the card is used to make a purchase or transaction. It only converts the exact amount you are required to pay while the remaining crypto is left intact. 

[stompix]

I had to zoom a bit on the fine print a the bottom of the first page and that is a bit weird:

The CL Card and its features are provided to you solely by Baanx Group Ltd, UK, Baanx US Corp, United States and Frozen Time UNIPESSOAL LDA, EU and not by Ledger.

It's a card by Ledger that has nothing to do with Ledger? wtf?

So, you got a Visa card, powered by ledger, owned by Baanx Group Ltd UK (which is not a bank), the card being issued by the usual Lithuanian Bank, in this case Frozen Time – Unipessoal LDA, although the main branch is from Portugal and at the end of the line you might start to wonder whether hell you're going to call if something goes wrong with your funds or a bank transfer in and out.

Bitcoin was supposed to get rid of the intermediaries, now, instead of one bank, we have 5 "Fintech" each munching a bt of fees.

I've never seen a debit card that holds a balance in Bitcoin and converts it only when you make a purchase.

You can do that with the Binance card, you can move funds to your card wallet and set the order from which funds are taken and they do an auto-conversion. The entire thing is just a mess from my point of view and I've always ended up wondering what the hell is going on but I'm more like the exception or the unlucky guy,  according to this topic most got along with no hiccups.
I've dropped both Binance and Wirex even from my weekly usage, I've been using them only to pay for small purchases on the internet I deem too risky for my CC and liquidating some altcoins the easy way at Aldi and Tesco

[LoyceV]

It's a card by Ledger that has nothing to do with Ledger? wtf?

That sounds like my normal creditcard at my normal bank: It's issued by ING, owned by ICS and processed by Mastercard. Or the other way around, I don't even know for sure.

at the end of the line you might start to wonder whether hell you're going to call if something goes wrong with your funds or a bank transfer in and out.

It sounds like Ledger got paid to advertise this, or they'll get paid per user or per transaction later on. Just like they offer several services from within Ledger Live.

Bitcoin was supposed to get rid of the intermediaries, now, instead of one bank, we have 5 "Fintech" each munching a bt of fees.

I'd say Bitcoin isn't supposed to get rid of intermediaries, it's supposed to give you the freedom to do so. Bitcoin works fine with or without them.

[Pmalek]

It's a card by Ledger that has nothing to do with Ledger? wtf?

It's a card powered by Ledger according to the terminology they used. But it's not a card owned or controlled by Ledger. It's a partnership with Baanx and you are using their card.

So, you got a Visa card, powered by ledger, owned by Baanx Group Ltd UK (which is not a bank), the card being issued by the usual Lithuanian Bank, in this case Frozen Time – Unipessoal LDA, although the main branch is from Portugal and at the end of the line you might start to wonder whether hell you're going to call if something goes wrong with your funds or a bank transfer in and out.

The moment you transfer your crypto from your hardware wallet to the card (aka Baanx), it's Baanx's crypto and you should contact them for any problems you might run into. I am not 100% sure but I think Ledger already mentioned in their disclaimers somewhere that they don't provide and guarantees or recommendations on how to use the card. In other words, if you mess up, don't come running back to us and crying about it. 

[o_e_l_e_o]

https://www.facebook.com/Ledger/photos/a.802170596506829/4746992725357910/

Any other source for this info, or can someone quote it here or upload any images to an image sharing site? I can't access it since I don't have a Facebook account.

So if what you say is correct, that you must first transfer coins from your Ledger to the card before you can spend them (and I don't see how it could be done any other way unless you hand out your seed phrase or private keys and defeat the entire point of a hardware wallet in the first place), then the blurb on the Ledger website here (https://www.ledger.com/blog/sign-up-now-our-ledger-powered-crypto-life-cl-card-is-coming) is wrong/incorrect/lies - "giving you the ability to spend your assets stored on your Nano." You are not spending the assets stored on your Nano - you are sending the assets stored on your Nano out of your Nano and to a custodial third party, and then spending them from there.

It sounds like Ledger got paid to advertise this, or they'll get paid per user or per transaction later on. Just like they offer several services from within Ledger Live.

That sounds great for your privacy!

[LoyceV]

https://www.facebook.com/Ledger/photos/a.802170596506829/4746992725357910/

Any other source for this info, or can someone quote it here or upload any images to an image sharing site? I can't access it since I don't have a Facebook account.

The link works fine without Facebook account on Tor:

then the blurb on the Ledger website here (https://www.ledger.com/blog/sign-up-now-our-ledger-powered-crypto-life-cl-card-is-coming) is wrong/incorrect/lies - "giving you the ability to spend your assets stored on your Nano."

Maybe Ledger thinks you currently can't spend your assets from the Nano.

That sounds great for your privacy!

Don't worry, pinky promise, they're totally not going to leak your data

[Pmalek]

Any other source for this info, or can someone quote it here or upload any images to an image sharing site? I can't access it since I don't have a Facebook account.

You should be able to see it without being logged into Facebook as well. Or maybe it depends on your country or local settings.

Anywhere, here it is from Mozilla without being logged in:

So if what you say is correct, that you must first transfer coins from your Ledger to the card before you can spend them

Yep, that should be the way to do it.

then the blurb on the Ledger website here (https://www.ledger.com/blog/sign-up-now-our-ledger-powered-crypto-life-cl-card-is-coming) is wrong/incorrect/lies - "giving you the ability to spend your assets stored on your Nano." You are not spending the assets stored on your Nano - you are sending the assets stored on your Nano out of your Nano and to a custodial third party, and then spending them from there.

Unless they have come up with some shared custody type of account that you will have to set up. But I doubt it.

Edit: Oops, LoyceV was faster!

[o_e_l_e_o]

The link works fine without Facebook account on Tor:

It didn't work for me, despite a circuit change. A third circuit change just now and it did work. Guess I was just unlucky. Thanks for sharing the image anyway!

I find the whole thing very disingenuous if I'm honest. "You're safe and sound when you do so, as you need your Ledger Nano S/X to confirm the transaction." I mean, technically that's correct, but as soon as you confirm the transaction you are no longer safe and sound in any way since your coins are no longer protected by your hardware wallet, are no longer in your control, are in the possession of a third party (and not even Ledger themselves), and you have no idea how good their security is. All that information seems to be inexplicably missing from all the explanations they are giving as to how this works. It's almost like they don't want people to realize they are losing all security and privacy by using this.

[LoyceV]

"You're safe and sound when you do so, as you need your Ledger Nano S/X to confirm the transaction." I mean, technically that's correct

They use the exact same strategy when it comes to staking ethereum:

Ledger is the safest way to stake ETH. Your private keys remain tightly secured within your Nano hardware wallet, guaranteeing a hack-proof experience. All transactions are confirmed from the security of your hardware wallet.
~
You can now verify your transaction details on your Nano hardware wallet using the LIDO app. Once confirmed, your wallet now contains the amount of ETH you staked – stETH – visible in your wallet.

They literally tell people to exchange their (shit)coins for (shit)tokens, as if holding the keys to the (shit)tokens is enough to get back your (shit)coins when the shit hits the fan.

[Pmalek]

All that information seems to be inexplicably missing from all the explanations they are giving as to how this works.

Maybe that's something that will be released later down the line.

It's almost like they don't want people to realize they are losing all security and privacy by using this.

All companies like their customers to be smart and educated enough to purchase their products or services, but at the same time ignorant enough not to question their policies and methods of how things are done. You are being a naughty boy o_e_l_e_o asking such things.

Not surprising, spending directly from your hardware sounds too good to be true and it means you need to bring your HW wallet along with the Ledger card.

Too good or to scary. If you can spend the coins from a hardware wallet without physically confirming each transaction, who has your private keys, master private keys, or the seed phrase. That would mean Ledger has a copy of them.

[dkbit98]

They confirmed our speculations that you won't be able to spend the coins directly from your hardware wallet and the Ledger Live app with the card. You will be required to top up the card by manually sending funds from your LL app to the card's account address. Those coins will then become spendable with the debit card.

I don't have fakebook account so I can't read that link, but this is exactly the same thing we see with all other crypto debit cards, just in this case card has ledger label on it.
Since Baanx group don't know addresses from ledger customers (I hope) this means that I can send coins even from hot wallet or exchange to that card, totally unrelated with ledger.
It would be terrible f they need some proof and connection that coins are really coming from ledger device address.

It sounds like Ledger got paid to advertise this, or they'll get paid per user or per transaction later on. Just like they offer several services from within Ledger Live.

Some people maybe remember several months ago when ledger received bunch of money ($380 Million) from various companies for their last fundraising campaign.
Well know it's payback time 

The link works fine without Facebook account on Tor

Not working in my case... and I tried with several new identities.
You must have some special early accees for Torbook metaverse.

I find the whole thing very disingenuous if I'm honest.

This is just a beginning, wait until we see new deals coming up, Ledger is very interested in becoming smatphone storage for nft mambo jumbo art.
Ledger consider bitcoin to be boring old tech so I speculate they are going to be used as main metaverse tool in future

[o_e_l_e_o]

They use the exact same strategy when it comes to staking ethereum:

I don't use Ethereum so I had no idea about this, but wow. How can they possible call it a hack-proof experience when you have to send your ETH off to some random smart contract. The number of token contracts and smart contracts which have had critical bugs and vulnerabilities in them is uncountable.

Since Baanx group don't know addresses from ledger customers (I hope) this means that I can send coins even from hot wallet or exchange to that card, totally unrelated with ledger.

The whole partnership thing here simply appears to be that there will now be a tab/button/advert/whatever in Ledger Live that will let you link your card and generate a deposit address from within Ledger Live itself, as opposed to having to go to Baanx's own website. Baanx will obviously pay Ledger a cut of the fees and profits for this, and I'm absolutely certain that both companies will share data to increase ad revenue and the like. I can't see anything at all which is new or revolutionary compared to already existing bitcoin cards, with the significant downside being that you will have directly linked a KYCed account with your hardware wallet.

Ledger consider bitcoin to be boring old tech so I speculate they are going to be used as main metaverse tool in future

I can't think of anything worse in a hardware wallet. It's crap like this that makes me happy to use airgapped cold storage. At least I know some random company isn't going to start trying to turn my airgapped computer in to something I have never and will never want.

[LoyceV]

How can they possible call it a hack-proof experience when you have to send your ETH off to some random smart contract.

If they lie about this, the real question is what else do they lie about that is less obvious to see?

[Pmalek]

Since Baanx group don't know addresses from ledger customers (I hope) this means that I can send coins even from hot wallet or exchange to that card, totally unrelated with ledger.
It would be terrible f they need some proof and connection that coins are really coming from ledger device address.

I don't think you will. Most probably you will only be able to get a deposit address from Ledger Live. But once you see that address, it might be possible to deposit crypto from let's say an exchange or some other wallet that isn't Ledger Live. Or maybe they have a way to whitelist only your addresses that have been funded in the past in LL.

I don't use Ethereum so I had no idea about this, but wow. How can they possible call it a hack-proof experience when you have to send your ETH off to some random smart contract. The number of token contracts and smart contracts which have had critical bugs and vulnerabilities in them is uncountable.

They provide false claims. The fact that your private keys never leave your device isn't important because your coins do. But isn't that exactly how staking works all over the place? You have to lock the coins for X amount of time, send them to an exchange, and you can't get them back until your staking period expires. The safety of the keys has nothing to do with it.   

[LoyceV]

But isn't that exactly how staking works all over the place? You have to lock the coins for X amount of time, send them to an exchange, and you can't get them back until your staking period expires. The safety of the keys has nothing to do with it.

I've only staked a worthless altcoin, where staking worked straight from the Bitcoin Core clone, without exchange. I assume the same would work on ethereum, but the minimum is about half a Lambo worth of that coin. So staking leads to further centralization, who would have thought.

[Hispo]

To anyone who is considering this Ledger implementation to be a good idea, I would like them to (re)visit this topic started by dkbit98 about how the big brother wants to be able to crack your HW in the future.

Ledger not being fully open source and still being one of the most important HW providers would fit like a glove to those who seek to undermine the purpose of the HWs themselves. Be careful, the devil won't come to us with horns and in red, but dressed in white and offering "wonderful things".

[suchmoon]

I've only staked a worthless altcoin, where staking worked straight from the Bitcoin Core clone, without exchange. I assume the same would work on ethereum, but the minimum is about half a Lambo worth of that coin. So staking leads to further centralization, who would have thought.

It's a bit different with Ethereum in that (a) you have to send the coins the the beacon chain (AKA ETH2) and while you can hold the keys, you can't really withdraw the coins until some future hardfork and (b) there are uptime requirements - you can get penalized if your validator node goes down. Looks like this Ledger service is trying to solve these two issues (not sure about the first part though but presumably you can sell the staking tokens, perhaps at a slight loss), as well as allow staking less than 32 ETH. Nothing particularly wrong with that, there are other similar services, but it's definitely perpendicular to the purpose of a hardware wallet.

[dkbit98]

The whole partnership thing here simply appears to be that there will now be a tab/button/advert/whatever in Ledger Live that will let you link your card and generate a deposit address from within Ledger Live itself, as opposed to having to go to Baanx's own website. Baanx will obviously pay Ledger a cut of the fees and profits for this, and I'm absolutely certain that both companies will share data to increase ad revenue and the like. I can't see anything at all which is new or revolutionary compared to already existing bitcoin cards, with the significant downside being that you will have directly linked a KYCed account with your hardware wallet.

It's possible that everything will be connected with ledger live app, and anyone using this application will have their IP recorded, along with wallet address and now with this new card.
I guess people could still use VPN or Tor connection when using this app, but I wonder why it's not built in option within app, same like we have in Trezor Suite.

I've only staked a worthless altcoin, where staking worked straight from the Bitcoin Core clone, without exchange. I assume the same would work on ethereum, but the minimum is about half a Lambo worth of that coin. So staking leads to further centralization, who would have thought.

Maybe it's time for you to release LoyceV coin with staking option and support for ledger wallet... I am waiting for my airdrop sir 

To anyone who is considering this Ledger implementation to be a good idea, I would like them to (re)visit this topic started by dkbit98 about how the big brother wants to be able to crack your HW in the future.

Ledger is perfect honeypot company for government agencies to infiltrate their agents, being closed source, leaking customer information multiple times, and receiving millions of dollar investment information just increases my suspicion even more.
I wouldn't trust them with this new ledger-Baanx debit card either.

[o_e_l_e_o]

If they lie about this, the real question is what else do they lie about that is less obvious to see?

"We keep your information safe."

It's possible that everything will be connected with ledger live app, and anyone using this application will have their IP recorded, along with wallet address and now with this new card.

If you use Ledger Live, then I fully suspect that this is already happening.

Out of curiosity, I went and had a look at the Ledger Privacy Policy, since I've not paid it any attention in some time. It's worse than I remember, or perhaps it has become worse since I last looked at it. Examples include:

In order to gain access to third-party services through Ledger Live, you understand and acknowledge that your location information, including your IP address, may be collected on behalf of and checked by selected partners in order to meet their own AML/KYC requirements.

With no way to update the firmware or the apps on your Ledger device without going through this piece of software, then it is essentially impossible to use a Ledger device privately.

[DaveF]

In order to gain access to third-party services through Ledger Live, you understand and acknowledge that your location information, including your IP address, may be collected on behalf of and checked by selected partners in order to meet their own AML/KYC requirements.

With no way to update the firmware or the apps on your Ledger device without going through this piece of software, then it is essentially impossible to use a Ledger device privately.

A VPN will get around that, but I guess it get's back to what has been being said about them for a while that they should not be trusted.
As I posted above, the issue is not us, it's them and everyone else that uses & promotes them.
Bitching about what they do amongst ourselves is fine, but we have to spend time educating others about what they do.
...quoting myself from another post:

Serious thought, Ledger has already made it 100% clear that they don't care about their customers. They are not even trying to hide it. But they are selling a ton of devices. So, the question is WHAT are they doing that other manufacturers are not? And if the other manufacturers do the same will they pull sales from Ledger? And if not why not? This is something we should be discussing. I have my own thoughts, but I am interested in what other people think.

I spent wayyyyy to much time the other day pointing out why someone I know should stop using his ledger, I might as well been talking to my cat for all the progress I made with him. But I tried. This is just another thing we will have to talk people out of.

4% cashback in XLM, and if you use USDC to fund it, since it's a 'stablecoin', there are no tax implications.

Are you paying those crazy high ethereum transaction fees for every transaction you make with your card?

Sorry missed this the other day, just 1 transfer to Coinbase with the 1 fee and it just pulls from my USDC balance.
They also pay some small amount of interest on USDC.
But if you are going to spend crypto on stuff instead of holding it, I'll take 4% back.
As I have posted in other places here, my privacy & anonimity are already gone since I am a long time Coinbase user, so I might as well make the best of it.


-Dave

[Hispo]

To anyone who is considering this Ledger implementation to be a good idea, I would like them to (re)visit this topic started by dkbit98 about how the big brother wants to be able to crack your HW in the future.

I wouldn't trust them with this new ledger-Baanx debit card either.

I wouldn't either.
Bitcoin, an open source protocol should only be managed with open source wallets (in case of holders), if not what is even the point then on trying to be one's own bank while trusting there is not a hidden back-door?  

[o_e_l_e_o]

A VPN will get around that, but I guess it get's back to what has been being said about them for a while that they should not be trusted.

The IP sharing, yes, but what other data are they sharing with their third party partners? I note that the mobile apps also collect information such as your device ID and GPS location data. What about which coins you are holding, or even your balances or addresses? And then once you share your KYC to access this Baanx card, is that going to be shared too? Far too risky.

This is just another thing we will have to talk people out of.

I think it mostly goes back to the root issue, which is most people do not care about their privacy until it is too late. If people are happy to send their KYC off without a second thought to any centralized exchange, or even worse to some complete stranger who can copy and paste an existing token and launch some scam bounty campaign, then good luck convincing them that Ledger sharing their identity with a debit card provider is a concern for them. If you care about your privacy then this behavior from Ledger is unforgivable, but if your KYC documents are already for sale on dark net markets, then this is pretty much irrelevant.

The fact that Ledger have survived seemingly unscathed after literally putting many of their customers in physical danger by leaking their full names and addresses, means I suspect that most people simply won't care about their loss of privacy here either. I had a look through their subreddit and could only find a single user express privacy concerns about this, and he was being downvoted for doing so.

[LoyceV]

I note that the mobile apps also collect information such as your device ID and GPS location data. What about which coins you are holding, or even your balances or addresses?

Knowing your exact location and your exact balance, while having a history of leaking customer data, is just plain scary.
It's as if they have an interest in selling $5 wrenches!

[dkbit98]

Out of curiosity, I went and had a look at the Ledger Privacy Policy, since I've not paid it any attention in some time. It's worse than I remember, or perhaps it has become worse since I last looked at it.

Exposing IP location to manufacturer like ledger is one thing, but using this data and sharing it with bunch of their partners is big red flag for me, especially if wallet address can be connected with that.
It's possible that other devices are doing something similar, but I know that Trezor Suite have built in Tor privacy option.

As I posted above, the issue is not us, it's them and everyone else that uses & promotes them.

That is true, ledger have big list of affiliates, youtubers, influencers and they all earn money whenever someone purchase ledger device with their link.
Nothing bad in doing affiliate marketing if you are honest about specific product and you don't hide stuff like this, and I never heard anyone talking about this issue.

I spent wayyyyy to much time the other day pointing out why someone I know should stop using his ledger, I might as well been talking to my cat for all the progress I made with him. But I tried. This is just another thing we will have to talk people out of.

I probably spent more time creating bunch of ledger related topics in bitcointalk forum, not because I hate them but because I want to show the full picture.
For example, when you look at their website reviews is all roses but if you check Trustpilot ledger reviews you will see something different.

Bitcoin, an open source protocol should only be managed with open source wallets (in case of holders), if not what is even the point then on trying to be one's own bank while trusting there is not a hidden back-door?  

Exactly, and I don't know what's the problem for ledger to open source everything, so that we could all contribute making a better product and stop with speculations about backdoors.

Knowing your exact location and your exact balance, while having a history of leaking customer data, is just plain scary.
It's as if they have an interest in selling $5 wrenches!

Combine that with previously leaked customer information, maybe some hidden NDA with government agencies, and you have a big horror story just waiting to be revealed.


More information about new Ledger card released today:

How does the CL Card, powered by Ledger, interact with #LedgerLive & your Nano?

Well, you can use Ledger Live to top up your card by sending #crypto to your card account. You'll need your Ledger Nano S/X to confirm the transaction securely.

https://twitter.com/Ledger/status/1472892039545110532

[o_e_l_e_o]

Knowing your exact location and your exact balance, while having a history of leaking customer data, is just plain scary.

Not only that, but sharing that data with all the third parties which are integrated in to Ledger Live. Has anyone got Ledger Live installed who can tell us exactly who they are? (I'm definitely not installing it to find out!) According to the menu on the left of this page (https://support.ledger.com/hc/en-us/articles/4413768794257-Managing-NFT-in-Ledger-Live) they will be sharing your data with Coinify, Wyre, Changelly, Paraswap, and Lido (I've not even heard of some of these). And as we discussed earlier there is now a Coinbase integration as well. Who else are they sharing your info and data with?

It's possible that other devices are doing something similar, but I know that Trezor Suite have built in Tor privacy option.

I'm becoming more and more skeptical of all hardware wallets as time goes on, given the constant issues with privacy and security which keep arising. I still use a couple of brands for smaller amounts of coins, but the bulk of my holdings are either on paper wallets or encrypted airgapped wallets.

More information about new Ledger card released today:

And the official Ledger account replies to all the people singing its praises with meaningless hype, and ignores the people who question the privacy or KYC implications.

[Rikafip]

More information about new Ledger card released today:

How does the CL Card, powered by Ledger, interact with #LedgerLive & your Nano?

Well, you can use Ledger Live to top up your card by sending #crypto to your card account. You'll need your Ledger Nano S/X to confirm the transaction securely.

https://twitter.com/Ledger/status/1472892039545110532

So, pretty much the same thing like sending your money from Ledger to Binance/Coinbase and then using debit card. With maybe one (or more in case of Coinbase-Revolut combo) step less as you won't have to dend money to card (I guess) and from what I read among those replies, transactions from Ledger to card will be free. Then again, they won't have any cashback system, at least for now and that's a big drawback for anyone who uses crypto debit card on the daily basis.

Gonna skip that one in the end.

[satscraper]

Has anyone got Ledger Live installed who can tell us exactly who they are? (I'm definitely not installing it to find out!) According to the menu on the left of this page (https://support.ledger.com/hc/en-us/articles/4413768794257-Managing-NFT-in-Ledger-Live) they will be sharing your data with Coinify, Wyre, Changelly, Paraswap, and Lido (I've not even heard of some of these). And as we discussed earlier there is now a Coinbase integration as well. Who else are they sharing your info and data with?

https://ledger.baanx.co.uk/CL_Platform_Terms_of_Use.pdf