Ledger Card Honeypot

[ABCbits]

I don't see any benefit compared with other crypto debit/credit card, so i doubt this product will be popular.  New user is more likely to use card from more popular company (e.g. Binance) while veteran user would use card which already ready to use.

Well, in case of Ledger card your crypto will be on your hardware wallet and not on the exchange. For me that's a pretty big advantage, given that their fees and ease of use remains somewhat similar to Binance card.

Honestly i doubt about part where the coin stay on hardware wallet since the website also say "Top-up & manage your card easily and securely through Ledger Live". Hopefully they don't mean you must send coin to card first so the card automatically convert the coin to fiat at time of purchase.

[o_e_l_e_o]

This is horrendous.

The whole point of a hardware wallet is to keep your keys and your coins in your control, away from centralized services, away from custodial services, away from exchanges, and away from prying eyes; not make it easier for these centralized services to access your info. Earlier this week Ledger announced a partnership with Coinbase of all people (have we all forgotten the Hacking Team scandal already?), and now they are inevitably going to start wanting to collect KYC information to offer this bullshit crypto card? I'm sure this will make great profits for Ledger but it is antithetical to the very point of a hardware wallet. Not only that, but I'm absolutely certain that future development of Ledger products will now be influenced by these centralized services. Remember how quickly Brave went down the toilet once Binance started pulling the strings?

If I was undecided about which hardware wallet I was going to buy, these recently developments from Ledger would 100% convince me to buy a competitor's product.

[LoyceV]

It's even more crazy when I hear Ledger CEO talking about plans to turn their hardware wallet into some weird phone like thing in future with debit card on top, this sounds like a circus to me

It sounds like a very cool feature to be able to access all your crypto funds directly from your Hardware Card! Buying a car? No problem! Buying a jet? Just swipe your card, punch in your Ledger PIN, confirm the transaction and take off!
It also sounds like the dumbest and most insecure thing ever

Never understood the appeal of these things. A good credit card that's accepted everywhere, 1-5% cash back, grace period, etc, works great for fiat purchases. Then I can pay the monthly bill by selling some corn if I'm so inclined. Much easier for tax returns too, ~12 transactions instead of hundreds.

Note that this varies per country: I wouldn't have this problem as we don't have capital gains tax.

Of course, funding cards with crypto is only a temporary solution while shops don't accept crypto directly. Give it time

[dkbit98]

Would not that imply they may require us to provide xpubs to proof existence of funds?  

Correct me if I am wrong, but if it is the case collecting xpubs from users does not sound good.

It doesn't sound good at all, and I wouldn't suggest anyone to connect all their coins and accounts on ledger wallet with this new card, that is if they care about privacy at all.

4% cashback in XLM, and if you use USDC to fund it, since it's a 'stablecoin', there are no tax implications.

Are you paying those crazy high ethereum transaction fees for every transaction you make with your card?
I think it's not so smart at all to use something like this when transaction fees can go over $100, and ''stable'' don't sound so stable anymore.

This is horrendous.

The whole point of a hardware wallet is to keep your keys and your coins in your control, away from centralized services, away from custodial services, away from exchanges.

You know that ledger hardware wallet will also integrate with coinbase and  ithink that is even worse than connecting it to debit card.

It also sounds like the dumbest and most insecure thing ever

Yeah it is dumbest thing ever, and I think that majority of general crypto population is very exited about this feature, but we know from history that majority herd is never right or smart 

[suchmoon]

Of course, funding cards with crypto is only a temporary solution while shops don't accept crypto directly. Give it time

I would argue that these types of cards are counterproductive to the long term goal of having BTC/LN/etc accepted directly. It gets tangled up in the perpetual fiat nonsense of centralization, KYC, card fraud, etc. The Visa/MC duopoly get the card processing fees so we're basically subsidizing competitors of Bitcoin payment systems, along with entities that aren't exactly the best representatives of what Bitcoin is about (Binance, Coinbase, Ledger, ...).

[Rikafip]

Honestly i doubt about part where the coin stay on hardware wallet since the website also say "Top-up & manage your card easily and securely through Ledger Live". Hopefully they don't mean you must send coin to card first so the card automatically convert the coin to fiat at time of purchase.

Both you and @suchmoon made a good point, haven't really thought about that part. In this case it's not any better than Binance as again your money will be controlled by someone else.

Of course, funding cards with crypto is only a temporary solution while shops don't accept crypto directly. Give it time

That's how I see it and I think that people are impatient, and often forgetting how much was is done in a little bit more than a decade. Vast majority of those  who think that it's a piece of cake for business to decide accepting crypto and that adoption is way too slow probably never owned any serious business and had that kind of responsibility. Talk is cheap.

4% cashback in XLM, and if you use USDC to fund it, since it's a 'stablecoin', there are no tax implications.

Are you paying those crazy high ethereum transaction fees for every transaction you make with your card?
I think it's not so smart at all to use something like this when transaction fees can go over $100, and ''stable'' don't sound so stable anymore.

Why would he use Ethereum to transfer USDC since there are cheaper ways to do it.

[LoyceV]

Of course, funding cards with crypto is only a temporary solution while shops don't accept crypto directly. Give it time

I would argue that these types of cards are counterproductive to the long term goal of having BTC/LN/etc accepted directly. It gets tangled up in the perpetual fiat nonsense of centralization, KYC, card fraud, etc. The Visa/MC duopoly get the card processing fees so we're basically subsidizing competitors of Bitcoin payment systems, along with entities that aren't exactly the best representatives of what Bitcoin is about (Binance, Coinbase, Ledger, ...).

Maybe. But I have some hope left: shop owners won't accept LN if there are barely any customers who use it. Creditcards are widely accepted already, so if creditcards temporarily help more users to pay with crypto, it might lead to the situation where more and more users actually pay with crypto. And if that's the case, it suddenly becomes interesting for shop owners to cut out the middle man that takes a percentage out of each transaction, and accept LN directly.
Maybe I'm dreaming, but I'm still hopeful

I don't really consider it subsidizing competitors: Bitcoin gives the freedom to use it in different ways. Creditcard companies are now joining because there's money to be made, and maybe because they know they can still get an early adopter advantage before they're too late.

[o_e_l_e_o]

It also sounds like the dumbest and most insecure thing ever

They also say you will be able to borrow against the value of the coins on your hardware wallet and spend in fiat, which can only mean the coins on your hardware wallet are locked up in some kind of smart contract or escrow controlled by Ledger or Baanx, and are therefore not your coins at all.

-snip-

Completely agree. I have never and will never use such a card, but least of all do I want one linked to my hardware wallet! If I can't find a retailer who will accept bitcoin for some good or service I want, then I'll either buy a gift card or I'll just buy it in fiat and let them know I'd really like to pay in bitcoin. I'll sell all my bitcoin before I compromise my privacy and autonomy by using such a card, knowing that the card issuer is monitoring all my transactions and can censor me at any time, and I have to pay them fees for the privilege of all this.

And if that's the case, it suddenly becomes interesting for shop owners to cut out the middle man that takes a percentage out of each transaction, and accept LN directly.

Will shop owners even realize though? If you go and pay with your HSBC issued Visa debit card and I pay with my Baanx issued Visa debit card, even if for some reason the shop owner was going over every individual transaction on their statement, they aren't going to know that I've actually paid in bitcoin.

[suchmoon]

Maybe. But I have some hope left: shop owners won't accept LN if there are barely any customers who use it. Creditcards are widely accepted already, so if creditcards temporarily help more users to pay with crypto, it might lead to the situation where more and more users actually pay with crypto. And if that's the case, it suddenly becomes interesting for shop owners to cut out the middle man that takes a percentage out of each transaction, and accept LN directly.
Maybe I'm dreaming, but I'm still hopeful

I think it reduces the incentive for merchants to take bitcoins directly, as well as for users to ask for it, since Bitcoin already kinda sorta works for them via this card kludge.

I don't really consider it subsidizing competitors: Bitcoin gives the freedom to use it in different ways. Creditcard companies are now joining because there's money to be made, and maybe because they know they can still get an early adopter advantage before they're too late.

That's the thing. Bitcoin has a built-in direct payment method, and we're obfuscating it with extra layers of useless fluff that actually limits this freedom.

They also say you will be able to borrow against the value of the coins on your hardware wallet and spend in fiat, which can only mean the coins on your hardware wallet are locked up in some kind of smart contract or escrow controlled by Ledger or Baanx, and are therefore not your coins at all.

At that point might as well go full defi and use WBTC. Or even unsecured credit... no big deal, they already got your KYC, just give them a bit more details, like your credit score.

[LTU_btc]

Hardware wallet which supposed to be somewhat anonymous and debit card with all KYC stuff - not the best combination.
Seems that Ledger card will be available in few countries initially and my country isn't on the list. But it's obvious that they will try to expand in EU and USA.
It's important question how much it will cost, what fees they will have, will they offer cashback and etc, but I'm not planning to use it, even if they will have attractive offers. Don't really want to connect funds on my hardware wallet and KYC stuff.

Of course, funding cards with crypto is only a temporary solution while shops don't accept crypto directly. Give it time

How much time? 10, 20 years? I doubt that crypto payments on shops will become mainstream thing anytime soon. Crypto debit cards IMO is most convenient way to spend crypto and probably it's long term solution.

[Pmalek]

Ledger released some more information yesterday via social media on how their upcoming crypto card will work.
They confirmed our speculations that you won't be able to spend the coins directly from your hardware wallet and the Ledger Live app with the card. You will be required to top up the card by manually sending funds from your LL app to the card's account address. Those coins will then become spendable with the debit card.

https://www.facebook.com/Ledger/photos/a.802170596506829/4746992725357910/

[LoyceV]

You will be required to top up the card by manually sending funds from your LL app to the card's account address. Those coins will then become spendable with the debit card.

That's about the same as many other card providers offer.
Unless this still applies:

For now we know that crypto will be converted to fiat at the time of purchase happens.

I've never seen a debit card that holds a balance in Bitcoin and converts it only when you make a purchase.

[Pmalek]

Unless this still applies:

For now we know that crypto will be converted to fiat at the time of purchase happens.

Yeah, I think that still applies. I think dkbit98 was referring to this part when he wrote that:

Convert to fiat at time of purchase
Your crypto will only be converted at the time of purchase. Link your crypto wallets to the card in priority order for seamless spending.

https://cl-cards.com/waiting-list/

I've never seen a debit card that holds a balance in Bitcoin and converts it only when you make a purchase.

I have never used one so I wouldn't know the way they work exactly. But I don't see why their couldn't be a conversion from crypto into fiat at the moment the card is used to make a purchase or transaction. It only converts the exact amount you are required to pay while the remaining crypto is left intact. 

[stompix]

I had to zoom a bit on the fine print a the bottom of the first page and that is a bit weird:

The CL Card and its features are provided to you solely by Baanx Group Ltd, UK, Baanx US Corp, United States and Frozen Time UNIPESSOAL LDA, EU and not by Ledger.

It's a card by Ledger that has nothing to do with Ledger? wtf?

So, you got a Visa card, powered by ledger, owned by Baanx Group Ltd UK (which is not a bank), the card being issued by the usual Lithuanian Bank, in this case Frozen Time – Unipessoal LDA, although the main branch is from Portugal and at the end of the line you might start to wonder whether hell you're going to call if something goes wrong with your funds or a bank transfer in and out.

Bitcoin was supposed to get rid of the intermediaries, now, instead of one bank, we have 5 "Fintech" each munching a bt of fees.

I've never seen a debit card that holds a balance in Bitcoin and converts it only when you make a purchase.

You can do that with the Binance card, you can move funds to your card wallet and set the order from which funds are taken and they do an auto-conversion. The entire thing is just a mess from my point of view and I've always ended up wondering what the hell is going on but I'm more like the exception or the unlucky guy,  according to this topic most got along with no hiccups.
I've dropped both Binance and Wirex even from my weekly usage, I've been using them only to pay for small purchases on the internet I deem too risky for my CC and liquidating some altcoins the easy way at Aldi and Tesco

[LoyceV]

It's a card by Ledger that has nothing to do with Ledger? wtf?

That sounds like my normal creditcard at my normal bank: It's issued by ING, owned by ICS and processed by Mastercard. Or the other way around, I don't even know for sure.

at the end of the line you might start to wonder whether hell you're going to call if something goes wrong with your funds or a bank transfer in and out.

It sounds like Ledger got paid to advertise this, or they'll get paid per user or per transaction later on. Just like they offer several services from within Ledger Live.

Bitcoin was supposed to get rid of the intermediaries, now, instead of one bank, we have 5 "Fintech" each munching a bt of fees.

I'd say Bitcoin isn't supposed to get rid of intermediaries, it's supposed to give you the freedom to do so. Bitcoin works fine with or without them.

[Pmalek]

It's a card by Ledger that has nothing to do with Ledger? wtf?

It's a card powered by Ledger according to the terminology they used. But it's not a card owned or controlled by Ledger. It's a partnership with Baanx and you are using their card.

So, you got a Visa card, powered by ledger, owned by Baanx Group Ltd UK (which is not a bank), the card being issued by the usual Lithuanian Bank, in this case Frozen Time – Unipessoal LDA, although the main branch is from Portugal and at the end of the line you might start to wonder whether hell you're going to call if something goes wrong with your funds or a bank transfer in and out.

The moment you transfer your crypto from your hardware wallet to the card (aka Baanx), it's Baanx's crypto and you should contact them for any problems you might run into. I am not 100% sure but I think Ledger already mentioned in their disclaimers somewhere that they don't provide and guarantees or recommendations on how to use the card. In other words, if you mess up, don't come running back to us and crying about it. 

[o_e_l_e_o]

https://www.facebook.com/Ledger/photos/a.802170596506829/4746992725357910/

Any other source for this info, or can someone quote it here or upload any images to an image sharing site? I can't access it since I don't have a Facebook account.

So if what you say is correct, that you must first transfer coins from your Ledger to the card before you can spend them (and I don't see how it could be done any other way unless you hand out your seed phrase or private keys and defeat the entire point of a hardware wallet in the first place), then the blurb on the Ledger website here (https://www.ledger.com/blog/sign-up-now-our-ledger-powered-crypto-life-cl-card-is-coming) is wrong/incorrect/lies - "giving you the ability to spend your assets stored on your Nano." You are not spending the assets stored on your Nano - you are sending the assets stored on your Nano out of your Nano and to a custodial third party, and then spending them from there.

It sounds like Ledger got paid to advertise this, or they'll get paid per user or per transaction later on. Just like they offer several services from within Ledger Live.

That sounds great for your privacy!

[LoyceV]

https://www.facebook.com/Ledger/photos/a.802170596506829/4746992725357910/

Any other source for this info, or can someone quote it here or upload any images to an image sharing site? I can't access it since I don't have a Facebook account.

The link works fine without Facebook account on Tor:

then the blurb on the Ledger website here (https://www.ledger.com/blog/sign-up-now-our-ledger-powered-crypto-life-cl-card-is-coming) is wrong/incorrect/lies - "giving you the ability to spend your assets stored on your Nano."

Maybe Ledger thinks you currently can't spend your assets from the Nano.

That sounds great for your privacy!

Don't worry, pinky promise, they're totally not going to leak your data

[Pmalek]

Any other source for this info, or can someone quote it here or upload any images to an image sharing site? I can't access it since I don't have a Facebook account.

You should be able to see it without being logged into Facebook as well. Or maybe it depends on your country or local settings.

Anywhere, here it is from Mozilla without being logged in:

So if what you say is correct, that you must first transfer coins from your Ledger to the card before you can spend them

Yep, that should be the way to do it.

then the blurb on the Ledger website here (https://www.ledger.com/blog/sign-up-now-our-ledger-powered-crypto-life-cl-card-is-coming) is wrong/incorrect/lies - "giving you the ability to spend your assets stored on your Nano." You are not spending the assets stored on your Nano - you are sending the assets stored on your Nano out of your Nano and to a custodial third party, and then spending them from there.

Unless they have come up with some shared custody type of account that you will have to set up. But I doubt it.

Edit: Oops, LoyceV was faster!

[o_e_l_e_o]

The link works fine without Facebook account on Tor:

It didn't work for me, despite a circuit change. A third circuit change just now and it did work. Guess I was just unlucky. Thanks for sharing the image anyway!

I find the whole thing very disingenuous if I'm honest. "You're safe and sound when you do so, as you need your Ledger Nano S/X to confirm the transaction." I mean, technically that's correct, but as soon as you confirm the transaction you are no longer safe and sound in any way since your coins are no longer protected by your hardware wallet, are no longer in your control, are in the possession of a third party (and not even Ledger themselves), and you have no idea how good their security is. All that information seems to be inexplicably missing from all the explanations they are giving as to how this works. It's almost like they don't want people to realize they are losing all security and privacy by using this.