JJG’s Outline of Bitcoin Investment Ideas

[Different patterns]

Many times it can be difficult to measure meaningful results over a mere 4 year cycle, yet if you had spent 2 cycles accumulating bitcoin, then it becomes even harder to beat a straight forward bitcoin accumulating strategy as compared to a strategy that fucks around with trying to time dips and those other various inferior strategies - especially if your goal might be bitcoin accumulation.

I agree with you that putting too much focus on the 4 years is not advisable. Especially when it comes to long-term strategy, the 4 years may seem okay to some people, but anyone that has a good investment plans or longer-term target on accumulating bitcoin, it more better to be buying bitcoin gradually and stacking for 8 or 10 years actually gives a better position,because the investors may experience different types of markets conditions, than 4 years cycles.

In my own views, it's not all about purchasing or mange to buy every dips, but the most Important thing is, they should be able to increasing thier own bitcoin holdings than putting themselves under unnecessary risks. Investment with the money you can afford to lose[discretionary income] that's why I still preferred a simpler DCA strategy, buying gradually and holding for long-term. But consistency matters alots.

Money that you can afford to lose and discretionary income are not the same thing.

Money that you can afford to lose is a subset of discretionary income since discretionary income is also used to save (put in back up funds) and to discretionarily consume.  You invest with a portion of your discretionary income that you choose to allocate into bitcoin, and surely not all of your discretionary income, since it is quite likely that guys who are consistently investing 100% of their discretionary income, they are likely to get stressed by such an aggressive level of investment, and surely guys who are even approaching investing 100% of their discretionary income, then hopefully, they already have decent quantities of back up funds in the event that they miscalculate and end up investing more than 100% of their discretionary funds.

This distinction is very important, because some people overlook this aspect of investing and often treat this two thing as if they are the same. this can also serve as guide for newbie to know the difference between discretionary and money they can afford to lose. And the reason why I think this distinction so important, is that, when talking about investing, having funds available not necessarily mean you must invest all of it. because your discretionary income can have different purposes, and bitcoin is only one of them, someone can also increase their bitcoin allocation when financial situation get stronger, and also keep money for backup funds to avoid any unexpected situation that may force them to sell their bitcoin.

[BItcoin Guy@]

It's not all bitcoin investors that investing for the sake of making profits and have some expectations of profit in future. Some investors are investing into bitcoin in order to save the value of their wealth since, they don't have the confidence in fiat because it's prone to inflation.

Bitcoin is a long term store of value and it's good to save your hard earned money from inflation by investing into bitcoin than keeping it in the bank. Profit is an additional benefits for investing into bitcoin.

You’re right, not everyone is holding bitcoin for profit, but mostly 70 to 80% are all investing just to benefit from it and get profits, because everyone always want what will give him more benefit and become wealth, and people investing in bitcoin for long term are all targeting huge returns, not just saving of there wealth, but to achieve something in it.

If Bitcoin is not special from other coin, they give profit for long time periods, I don’t think Bitcoin will have much value like this, they will not hype the coin, and Bitcoin will have low value, but since is doing well, and millions of people are enjoying it, and new people are still buying it, and that is how the price will be changing and growing gradually.

[Crakryptvest]

It's not all bitcoin investors that investing for the sake of making profits and have some expectations of profit in future. Some investors are investing into bitcoin in order to save the value of their wealth since, they don't have the confidence in fiat because it's prone to inflation.

 Bitcoin is a long term store of value and it's good to save your hard earned money from inflation by investing into bitcoin than keeping it in the bank. Profit is an additional benefits for investing into bitcoin.

It's good you said this, maybe those who thinks that every investor is pursuing one course will understand that there are investors whose reasons of investing in Bitcoin is far from making profit.
There are investors who are not really particular about profit, if profit was a thing for every investor, maybe every ATH, almost all Bitcoiners will withdraw by then, imagine what will happen if such takes place, some folks especially the rich people are mainly concerned about protecting and shielding their wealth against inflation as you you explained, which is the reason why the do not care much about profit, even though they know how important it is, they don't take it as the only area of concentration since they know that there are other advantages of investing in Bitcoin.

[Charcol]

Money that you can afford to lose and discretionary income are not the same thing.

Money that you can afford to lose is a subset of discretionary income since discretionary income is also used to save (put in back up funds) and to discretionarily consume.  You invest with a portion of your discretionary income that you choose to allocate into bitcoin, and surely not all of your discretionary income, since it is quite likely that guys who are consistently investing 100% of their discretionary income, they are likely to get stressed by such an aggressive level of investment, and surely guys who are even approaching investing 100% of their discretionary income, then hopefully, they already have decent quantities of back up funds in the event that they miscalculate and end up investing more than 100% of their discretionary funds.

You are actually right, some newbies usually get confused or mixed things up interchangeably. When they referred discretionary income as money they can afford to lose, it seems like a gambling mindset or rading rather. From my own understanding, newbies should get this some logics. Eaxmple if am earning 600k and 300k can covered all my expenses, the remaining 300k is my discretionary income,but to get everything in a balance way, keep 100k for handling any emergencies that may comes up unexpected. So 200k is actually my discretionary funds whichever is meant for Bitcoin investment. Keeping aside the money as backup is very important so that you won't be panicking even if the bitcoin price drops 20% or 30%.

 However. Having a good plans gives you a peace of mind in continuing holding bitcoin for long-term growths. Some people actually have to sell off thier bitcoin holdings,because they invested wrongly without planning themselves well.

The term "afford to lose" does not always refer to gambling or trading. It does not mean that they want to lose money. Rather, the term "afford to lose" is meant to encourage investors to invest within their means. But those who do not understand the true meaning of this term and put even basic needs or emergency money into Bitcoin are in trouble.

Discretionary income is what is left after deducting all your basic expenses. But it is not always right to put all of your discretionary income into Bitcoin. Because since you are a long-term investor, you need an emergency fund, a reserve fund, and discretionary consumption. If your emergency fund is still weak or you do not have the tolerance for a decline in the price after putting all your discretionary income into Bitcoin, you will be stressed.

 That is why it is advised that investors first determine their discretionary income portion, then continue to make regular purchases with a portion of it. The remaining portion can be kept to build an emergency fund or reserve fund.

[Gaza13]

beginners specifically should receive guidance and mentoring covering all aspects ranging from the knowledge itself to the management of the discretionary income they intend to invest. Once they grasp the lessons or guidance provided, the logical next step is to actually purchase Bitcoin even if the price is surging so they can experience price volatility firsthand. This allows them to see that the teachings hold true in reality, thereby helping to build the mindset they will need for the future.

All these you mentioned can become overwhelming for the person and may even make him feel like he needs to become an expert in every aspect of Bitcoin before starting.

What a beginner only needs to do is look at his discretionary income if he has a reasonable amount left, and decide a percentage to buy bitcoin, another portion to build back up funds and lastly for discretionary consumption. This is a simple and practical start he needs not what you’re saying. It shouldn’t be that complicated. They can then start buying Bitcoin with the amount have chosen and continue learning and gathering experience as they go.

Is knowledge itself not particularly important for those just starting to invest? Buying without knowing anything about Bitcoin or how it works I think it’s quite foolish to overlook this.

By gaining knowledge or guidance provided by close friends or anyone else, Of course they will convey crucial things, such as market fluctuations or buying according to their own capabilities, so that the investments they are building are not disrupted by their primary needs indeed, it would be impossible for beginners to overlook this information. I believe that knowledge itself serves as the primary foundation, or gives us the confidence to take the next step. It is not as you say, buying without a knowledge base.

I think you have misinterpreted this the post right above yours explained it correctly. In this regard, beginners specifically should receive guidance and mentoring covering all aspects ranging from the knowledge itself to the management of the discretionary income they intend to invest. Once they grasp the lessons or guidance provided, the logical next step is to actually purchase Bitcoin even if the price is surging so they can experience price volatility firsthand. This allows them to see that the teachings hold true in reality, thereby helping to build the mindset they will need for the future.

First of all, i do not deem it necessary for a beginner to undergo all these you said since they are not planning on trading or gambling bitcoin so, there will not be any need for mentorship because bitcoin investment is a very straight forward thing, you do not have to calculate or predict where the market will be heading next but rather all you need is to prepare your mind to accept whatever move the market makes, have the long term mindset, figure out your discretionary and chose the interval you will be accumulating in regards to your discretionary as simple as this, you do not need any mentorship because this is not trading.

Why beginners don't need or be allowed to get all that information? With the guidance or lessons they receive from any source whether , Isn't that very important for them for the future? As I mentioned earlier, once they have acquired the knowledge, the next step is to buy Bitcoin even if the price has surged so that they can experience price volatility firsthand. This does not mean trading or gambling, as you mentioned. Those guiding them will certainly say that to achieve maximum results, one should hold the asset for the long term.

[Creeper0]

The term "afford to lose" does not always refer to gambling or trading. It does not mean that they want to lose money. Rather, the term "afford to lose" is meant to encourage investors to invest within their means. But those who do not understand the true meaning of this term and put even basic needs or emergency money into Bitcoin are in trouble.

The phrase "afford to lose" has two meanings. One is that you are prepared for all possible outcomes and have the ability to accept any outcome. If you lose your investment for any reason, you may not be overly affected.
Another meaning is to invest within your means or invest with discretionary money or invest with unnecessary money, which if lost will not significantly change your standard of living or you will not be ruined.

Many people are confused by this phrase or even create confusion. But this phrase creates a reflection of your awareness of the risks of investing. Losing in an investment does not mean that you will lose money due to price volatility, but you can also lose funds due to your own mistakes.

[Rabata]

Base on history doing long term holding gives positive outcomes to the investors, but also it’s good to pay attention with their strategy and mindset. Since this could help them a lot to succeed here.

Yes base on history long term holding gives profit to holders, but that is not enough reason to believe that the future will return same profits levels that was given to investors in the past. While investing and holding for the future, you have to make room for surprises or disappointment, so you don’t get emotional and psychological breakdown when it doesn’t turn out how you have expected.

It may be wrong to assume that future returns will be the same based on Bitcoin's past performance. This does not mean that long-term savings will be worthless. I think investors need to be clear about whether they are looking for short-term profit or are gradually building their position in Bitcoin for the future and I also think that more important than the assurance of Bitcoin's good past returns is the fact that the volatility of fiat currency has decreased over time and the limited supply of Bitcoin encourages many to consider Bitcoin as an alternative to storing asset value in the long term.

Since Bitcoin does not guarantee anything, it may not be the right decision to invest all your savings at once or buy it on loan. I think it is more realistic to save regularly for future security with a portion of discretionary income after meeting all expenses.

[BluebloodCXVI]

Agreed, the two are indeed different. Discretionary income is what you have left after paying your basic expenses. It reflects your monthly cash flow and can be used for investing, saving, or spending. Money you can afford to lose is different: it's an amount that wouldn't affect your basic living needs or your peace of mind, even if it dropped to zero. So it measures your ability to tolerate losses, and it also depends on the savings you already have.

Two people with the same amount of discretionary income may have wildly different loss tolerance. When the price dips, someone with a thick emergency fund may be okay, while someone with a thin one may have to sell at a low price.

Let's test it by considering the drawdowns that actually have occurred (around -85% after the 2017 peak and around -75% after the 2021 peak). If your investment dropped 75% and stayed there for a year or two, and your finances were still secure, then it is money that you can afford to lose. So, in my opinion, the closer someone gets to investing all of their discretionary income, the more important it is to build up back up funds first, and then increase the investment gradually.

Yep, totally makes a lot of sense IMO.

It’s easy for a guy to look at his leftover money of each month and think to himself “ok cool I can throw all this money into crypto”, reasonable right ?
But if that leftover money that the guy has happens to basically be all the buffer that he got, then i don’t think in that context we can call a 75% drop a paper loss.
It’s the kind of thing that forces him to sell at low price because he probably got rent to pay or some BS.

Having emergency funds pretty much changes the whole dynamic because once that has been covered, the next few dollars the person invests will actually be money that they can afford to lose, then you can now size up slowly instead of going all in at once then you later start praying that the next two years are not gonna be like what happened to bitcoin in year 2018 and 2022.

[JayJuanGee]

Base on history doing long term holding gives positive outcomes to the investors, but also it’s good to pay attention with their strategy and mindset. Since this could help them a lot to succeed here.

Yes base on history long term holding gives profit to holders, but that is not enough reason to believe that the future will return same profits levels that was given to investors in the past. While investing and holding for the future, you have to make room for surprises or disappointment, so you don’t get emotional and psychological breakdown when it doesn’t turn out how you have expected.

For sure there tends to be quite a bit of value in attempting to set our expectations within realistic boundaries that largely accept and even anticipate the possibility for a variety of possible scenarios to play out, even if our preferences may well amount to a hope that in the longer trend, such as 4-10 years or longer that bitcoin continues to trend upwardly in value, while at the same time, in the earlier years of our bitcoin accumulation, we likely prefer that bitcoin prices do not trend up too rapidly during the earliest of stages in which we may well be building up the size of our own bitcoin stash.

Base on history doing long term holding gives positive outcomes to the investors, but also it’s good to pay attention with their strategy and mindset. Since this could help them a lot to succeed here.

Yes base on history long term holding gives profit to holders, but that is not enough reason to believe that the future will return same profits levels that was given to investors in the past. While investing and holding for the future, you have to make room for surprises or disappointment, so you don’t get emotional and psychological breakdown when it doesn’t turn out how you have expected.

There is no reason to be mentally broken about investing in Bitcoin, if you hold it for a long time then it will give you huge benefits.

I have seen this kind of nonsense from you previously @Popkon6.  You should realize by now (unless you are not paying any fucking attention to the posts of any other members beyond your own pie in the sky delusions) that bitcoin is not guaranteed to go up, even if we are projecting long timelines into the future, such as 4-10 years or longer into the future.

If you plan to hold it for a short term then it can give you losses, so investing in Bitcoin for a long term will be the best plan.

You are repeating your nonsense about supposedly having more guarantee in the long term as compared with the short term, yet at the same time, you don't even describe what you mean by long term versus short term, not that it matters since the whole premise is framed in absolutism rather than attempting to communicate some actionable meaning.

You can reach more success by investing in Bitcoin, because the more Bitcoin you invest, the more profit you can get. So by maintaining the continuity of buying in Bitcoin, you must take one of the opportunities to reach success and keep yourself strong.

Again more repetition of absolutism in regards to bitcoin, even though bitcoin may well be amongst the best of investment possibilities (if not the best?), bitcoin is still not guaranteed to be profitable as you continue to dogmatically repeat in misleading ways.

[edited out]

In my opinion, people with common sense are able to understand what their discretionary income is in most cases.

Common sense does not explicitly suggest what any particular person may or may not know, since a person with common sense could have a lot of knowledge, skills and/or experience or alternatively a person with common sense might not have very much knowledge, skills and/or experience.

It seems to me that a person with common sense would be trying to figure out ways to learn about the world and to act in ways that are in line with the knowledge, skills and/or experiences that he has, so if he identifies that bitcoin is a potentially good investment, he might assess his own knowledge, skills and/or experiences that relate to bitcoin and/or that relates to cashflow management to figure out the extent to which it is practical for him to get started buying bitcoin right away or if there might be some kinds of knowledge, skills and/or experiences that he feels that he needs before he can get started.

Of course, in this thread, we (including but not limited to yours truly) ongoingly emphasize the importance of getting started buying bitcoin as soon as possible, yet at the same time, each individual has to figure out his own comfort level beyond merely assessing that he has discretionary funds available.  Surely, from my perspective, having discretionary funds available gives quite a bit of justification to get started buying bitcoin, and it seems to me that position size can help to alleviate any potential starting out discomforts, yet at the same time, it is not my place (or the place of any other guy participating in this thread) to proclaim the comfort or discomfort level of any other thread participant, even if we might continue to proclaim that there is quite a bit of importance in getting started investing in bitcoin and/or engaging in practices to strengthen cashflow management systems and/or practices to the extent that a potential bitcoin newbie might not already have strong cashflow management systems/practices in place.

It is to stick the mind on longterm investing bitcoin but one should know even in longterm it is not a guarantee for profit. An investment being longterm dont mean it has no risk. While investing in Bitcoin it is better not to hsve so much expectation about the investment. In a longterm investment investors makes wrong decisions or may have challenge that can drastically affect the outcome of the investment this why investors must not have that mindset of seing Bitcoin investment as %100 profitable.

I totally disagree with you dude, the fact that nothing is guarantee in Bitcoin investment doesn't mean someone should not have expectation in their investment and come to think of it, how will you be investing in something without having an expectation? Does this sound okay to you? Of course it doesn't and will never sound okay in the ear. There is nothing certain in the future of Bitcoin yet we believe it will do well and we are expecting something tangible in years coming, investing without expectation is not investment but rather a play and a waste of investment.

Your response is confusing @sotelorene.  Sobz was responding to Popkon6's post in which he is suggesting that there is some kind of a guarantee in investing into bitcoin as long as the investment is long term, which is actually an ongoing dumbass misleading assertion that Popkon6 continues to make in this thread and also in other bitcoin-related threads... so it seems to me that the fact that Sobz was attempting to rebutt Popkon6's ongoing assertion, that does not signify that Sobz's is completely rejecting the various ways that any of us might balance out our bitcoin investment and/or cashflow management practices in light of expectations that we might have about bitcoin as compared with other places that we might choose to place our value.

This is how Bitcoin evolve, since many people think that its a hedge against inflation now.
Fiat is heavily affected by heavy inflation each years pass. This is why lots of people lost their interest to hold it.

Profit is provably a bonus here, since what's more bigger aspect to look at is we already have an asset which government has no control, also it can possibly hold great value across on many generations to come.

You're right, fiat can no longer longer be trusted in term of inflation so the best option for store of value is Bitcoin, it has given people hope that they can store their wealth in it and not get affected by inflation that’s why many people are embarrassing and not necessarily about profits.

 Least we forget that Satoshi didn't create Bitcoin for profits, but an alternative peer-to-peer currency created when the bank over printed paper money and caused serious inflation. That's why Satoshi made the supply limited so it can perfectly serve the purpose of being a good inflation hedge as well as other usage.

It can be quite difficult to proclaim that we know the various specifics for why Satoshi created or did not create bitcoin, since it seems that bitcoin has self-sovereignty and also number go up attributes that have been built into bitcoin since the beginning, whether Satoshi intended them or not.

Individuals, institutions and/or governments may well get involved in bitcoin for a variety of reasons that might support bitcoin and various seemingly fundamental attributes of bitcoin, such as abilities to transact without a third-party intermediary and/or the abilities for individuals to hold value without getting permission of third parties, and surely there can also be various instances in which the participation of certain players in bitcoin, whether individuals, institutions and/or government comes off as ambiguous in terms of the extent to which their participation is promoting and empowering the various attributes of bitcoin or attacking bitcoin's built-in attributes. 

For sure, many bitcoiners question the extent to which various individuals, institutions and/or governments participate in and/or promote various systems that end up creating and/or relying upon systems that seem to become unaccountable within actual onchain bitcoin systems in terms of not being able to verify the extent to which such systems are creating paper bitcoin without accounting for the extent to which the bitcoin that are supposedly backing up such paper bitcoin systems are backed up by actual bitcoin and/or the extent to which unaccounted bitcoin are being allowed to proliferate without any seeming boundaries and diluting the seeming supply and price of actual bitcoin based on fakety-fake bitcoin that are not verifiably accounted for and not being rehypothecated.. and even the use of bitcoin as a debt instrument (such as using bitcoin for collateral) could become problematic in the dilution of the bitcoin supply when the bitcoin are turned over to third parties that are allowed to loan them out rather than keeping such bitcoin in an onchain storable way...

and yeah, there could also be onchain verifiable bitcoin that are being used as collateral and/or as abilities to create debt against such collateral bitcoin, and it can be difficult to know how many times such collateral bitcoin is being counted, so in that sense, if there might be numerous claims on the same bitcoin, then it comes down to the fact that some third party custodians may well don't have the quantity of bitcoin that are matching their various liabilities (or the claims upon such bitcoin that they supposedly have).

None of us likely have to have the answers to these various questions that attempt to transition bitcoin into modern financial systems and practices in ways that bitcoin may well end up being ongoingly attacked by such modern financial systems, yet at the same time, many of us still consider bitcoin to be more powerful than various traditional assets (such as gold) based on the ability of  individuals to claim possession of the bitcoin that they believe they have and perhaps to have some skepticism when they are participating in systems that facilitate an allowance of the creation and the perpetuation of paper bitcoin, including various systems in which the third parties (whether ETFs or bitcoin treasury companies or exchanges or other third party custodians) may well not have anywhere close to the number of bitcoins under their control as they claim to have.

It's not all bitcoin investors that investing for the sake of making profits and have some expectations of profit in future. Some investors are investing into bitcoin in order to save the value of their wealth since, they don't have the confidence in fiat because it's prone to inflation.

Bitcoin is a long term store of value and it's good to save your hard earned money from inflation by investing into bitcoin than keeping it in the bank. Profit is an additional benefits for investing into bitcoin.

You’re right, not everyone is holding bitcoin for profit, but mostly 70 to 80% are all investing just to benefit from it and get profits,

Huh?  How would you know what percentage of bitcoin HODLers are investing it to merely get profits?  Did you do your own private survey, or do you have some credible source for your seemingly out of your ass made up statistic?

because everyone always want what will give him more benefit and become wealth, and people investing in bitcoin for long term are all targeting huge returns, not just saving of there wealth, but to achieve something in it.

It sounds as if you have the motives of normies (who invest into bitcoin) completely figured out.   

If Bitcoin is not special from other coin, they give profit for long time periods,

Bitcoin is special from all other coins.

Don't you know anything?

Do you have any clues about what is bitcoin or are you just making shit up in order that you can spout out your various fantasy-landia perspectives?

I don’t think Bitcoin will have much value like this, they will not hype the coin, and Bitcoin will have low value, but since is doing well, and millions of people are enjoying it, and new people are still buying it, and that is how the price will be changing and growing gradually.

So, from your perspective, bitcoin does not have any real value beyond the contagion and widespread sentiment that it has value, and therefore, such ongoing hype about bitcoin is going to continue to contribute towards it going up in price and so you seem to not have any insight beyond bitcoin being connected to sentiment and hype?  For guys investing into bitcoin based on your perspective (or similar perspectives) there seems to be a lot of potential whimsicality, and even though I am not disagreeing that there are some folks who invest into bitcoin without much knowledge of it, beyond having theories of sentiment, it seems to me that the kinds of folks who frame bitcoin in those sentiment/hype frameworks will tend to be easily shaken out of their bitcoin, even though surely it still can be difficult to completely generalize since some guys can have very superficial ideas about bitcoin, yet at the same time, choose a position size that still allows them to be able to ongoingly invest into bitcoin even though they have little to no clue about what bitcoin is beyond sentimentality and hype. 

In other words, guys can still make a killing with bitcoin even though they hardly know shit about it beyond their own seemingly dumbass and superficial framework, which I would put the sentiment/hype framework into such dumbass and superficial category.

[edited out]

Is knowledge itself not particularly important for those just starting to invest? Buying without knowing anything about Bitcoin or how it works I think it’s quite foolish to overlook this.

By gaining knowledge or guidance provided by close friends or anyone else, Of course they will convey crucial things, such as market fluctuations or buying according to their own capabilities, so that the investments they are building are not disrupted by their primary needs indeed, it would be impossible for beginners to overlook this information. I believe that knowledge itself serves as the primary foundation, or gives us the confidence to take the next step. It is not as you say, buying without a knowledge base.

You seem to be presuming that you know (beyond your own preferences) some kind of level of knowledge that you believe that bitcoin newbies need to have beyond just being able to calculate the extent to which they have discretionary funds.

Your perspective about the needed knowledge level of bitcoin newbies comes off as patronizing.

Why shouldn't a bitcoin newbie be able to figure out for himself whether to start buying bitcoin and/or how much to start buying merely based on his assessment that he has discretionary funds?  Why does he need to pass through some kind of a Gaza13 litmus test before he is able to determine whether and/or how much to put into bitcoin?

I think you have misinterpreted this the post right above yours explained it correctly. In this regard, beginners specifically should receive guidance and mentoring covering all aspects ranging from the knowledge itself to the management of the discretionary income they intend to invest. Once they grasp the lessons or guidance provided, the logical next step is to actually purchase Bitcoin even if the price is surging so they can experience price volatility firsthand. This allows them to see that the teachings hold true in reality, thereby helping to build the mindset they will need for the future.

First of all, i do not deem it necessary for a beginner to undergo all these you said since they are not planning on trading or gambling bitcoin so, there will not be any need for mentorship because bitcoin investment is a very straight forward thing, you do not have to calculate or predict where the market will be heading next but rather all you need is to prepare your mind to accept whatever move the market makes, have the long term mindset, figure out your discretionary and chose the interval you will be accumulating in regards to your discretionary as simple as this, you do not need any mentorship because this is not trading.

Why beginners don't need or be allowed to get all that information? With the guidance or lessons they receive from any source whether , Isn't that very important for them for the future? As I mentioned earlier, once they have acquired the knowledge, the next step is to buy Bitcoin even if the price has surged so that they can experience price volatility firsthand. This does not mean trading or gambling, as you mentioned. Those guiding them will certainly say that to achieve maximum results, one should hold the asset for the long term.

O.k. You are repeating yourself in your proclamation that any bitcoin newbie needs to have a mentor (or other guidance from someone who supposedly knows more than him) before he is permitted to authorize himself (under his own discretion) to determine whether or how much to put into bitcoin.

Base on history doing long term holding gives positive outcomes to the investors, but also it’s good to pay attention with their strategy and mindset. Since this could help them a lot to succeed here.

Yes base on history long term holding gives profit to holders, but that is not enough reason to believe that the future will return same profits levels that was given to investors in the past. While investing and holding for the future, you have to make room for surprises or disappointment, so you don’t get emotional and psychological breakdown when it doesn’t turn out how you have expected.

It may be wrong to assume that future returns will be the same based on Bitcoin's past performance. This does not mean that long-term savings will be worthless. I think investors need to be clear about whether they are looking for short-term profit or are gradually building their position in Bitcoin for the future

It seems to me that if a purported investor is looking for short term profits, then by definition such a person does not seem to fit into the category of bitcoin investor, even if they are proclaiming themselves to be an investor.  it seems by definition, if a person seeking to cash out of bitcoin in less than 4 years or to play bitcoin's price wave in a period that is less than 4 years, then it seems that those people are traders rather than investors, even if they might wrongly label themselves as "investors."

and I also think that more important than the assurance of Bitcoin's good past returns is the fact that the volatility of fiat currency has decreased over time and the limited supply of Bitcoin encourages many to consider Bitcoin as an alternative to storing asset value in the long term.

Your framing of fiat volatility decreasing in recent times seems to be a mischaracterization of fiat currencies, since you seem to be referring to bitcoin's price relative to fiat currencies rather than the perils (and precariousness) of fiat currencies (and their value) in themselves relative to various products and/or services.

And, really, who the fuck cares about supposed short-term fluctuations (and supposed stability) of bitcoin relative to various fiats since any asset (including bitcoin) can be manipulated for periods of time that are way longer than many folks are able to build and/or hold their position (which relates back to the statement that certain assets can remain irrational (in value) way longer than the investors can remain solvent).

Think about the matter @Rabata.  Since about March 2020 when there was a quite apparent world-wide liquidity crisis, the dollar and various other fiat currencies have been being diluted and printed into oblivion, which has contributed to much more instability and even debasement of various currencies not limited to the dollar in terms of how much goods and services that they can purchase, and for sure, various powers that be have been striving to ongoingly project sentiments of normalcy so that there is likely an ongoing misleading of various normies into wrongly perceiving that the debasement has ONLY been in the fractions of percentages such as less than 10% or even going down to levels that are around 3% per year, when that is a bunch of bullshit for almost anyone no matter their location in the world.  Sure there are some locations (and even types of goods/services) in which the debasement has not been as bad as other locations, yet at the same time, various fiat currencies have ongoingly been going through quite perilous times while attempting to create smoke and mirror perceptions of normalcy so that ongoing robbing of poor people can continue to take place accross the globe since monetary systems continue to allow that poor people tend to disproportionately bear overwhelmingly disproportionate amounts of the burdens related to continuous and unavoidable debasements of fiat currencies and ongoing proliferation of such fiat currency supply levels.

Since Bitcoin does not guarantee anything, it may not be the right decision to invest all your savings at once or buy it on loan. I think it is more realistic to save regularly for future security with a portion of discretionary income after meeting all expenses.

This part of your post is surely correct, since individually we ongoingly are likely to be advantaged by continuously and ongoingly striving to put value into bitcoin within our means and not overly holding onto fiat, to the extent that we can get away without having fiat.. since many of us (if not most of us) surely have to be able to ongoingly pay for our basic ongoing expenses with fiat... so even if we are ongoingly investing into bitcoin with portions of our discretionary income, we are also making sure that we are keeping ourself in a situation in which we can continue to pay for our basic expenses without having to rely upon dipping into our bitcoin during those periods of time that we are still building it up, and it can take years and years and years to really be able to build up a decently robust bitcoin holdings size.

[Silikiem]

Is knowledge itself not particularly important for those just starting to invest? Buying without knowing anything about Bitcoin or how it works I think it’s quite foolish to overlook this.

Beginners only need a basic knowledge to figure out a discretionary income for them to get started. They are beginners and it’s possible they can get started with little or no knowledge of bitcoin if they can be able to figure out a discretionary income to use and buy their first bitcoin. If they know where to buy and store their bitcoin, couple with the fact that they have a discretionary income available then they can go ahead and buy bitcoin. They will learn more along the line while they’re investing in bitcoin. That’s why they’re called beginners, they can’t know everything about bitcoin before starting, they will surely make mistakes and learn.

By gaining knowledge or guidance provided by close friends or anyone else, Of course they will convey crucial things, such as market fluctuations or buying according to their own capabilities, so that the investments they are building are not disrupted by their primary needs indeed, it would be impossible for beginners to overlook this information.

All of these mentioned above can still be learnt even when they’re already  buying bitcoin, the most important thing for them is not to delay getting started trying to learn about market fluctuations when they can easily get to start buying bitcoin with a discretionary income and HODL.

Why beginners don't need or be allowed to get all that information? With the guidance or lessons they receive from any source whether , Isn't that very important for them for the future? As I mentioned earlier, once they have acquired the knowledge, the next step is to buy Bitcoin even if the price has surged so that they can experience price volatility firsthand. This does not mean trading or gambling, as you mentioned. Those guiding them will certainly say that to achieve maximum results, one should hold the asset for the long term.

Beginners are not restricted from learning or gaining whatever knowledge they want to, but the fact is that they shouldn’t waste time or delay getting started in investing in bitcoin simply because they want to gain knowledge or more as the case may be. The knowledge of bitcoin is continually growing and the fact that they have started investing in bitcoin does not stop them from learning more and gaining valuable knowledge. As a matter of fact, they tend to gain more knowledge while they’re already/ ongoingly investing in bitcoin through their practical experience of bitcoin accumulation and HODL.

[Gragebox]

For sure there tends to be quite a bit of value in attempting to set our expectations within realistic boundaries that largely accept and even anticipate the possibility for a variety of possible scenarios to play out, even if our preferences may well amount to a hope that in the longer trend, such as 4-10 years or longer that bitcoin continues to trend upwardly in value, while at the same time, in the earlier years of our bitcoin accumulation, we likely prefer that bitcoin prices do not trend up too rapidly during the earliest of stages in which we may well be building up the size of our own bitcoin stash.

Realism is vital when buying Bitcoin. Price fluctuations in the short term can be quite random, so having an expectation that prices will be going up all the time can put undue stress on you. Bitcoin has a finite supply of 21 million coins, but it doesn’t mean that because it’s scarce, its price will go up. Factors such as demand, market environment, regulation, adoption, and investor sentiment can influence its price.

When buying Bitcoin for the long term, having a strategy and being ready for price fluctuations might prove more useful than trying to forecast every cycle. If a person still hasn’t completed his position, then he might want to use low-price periods to buy more BTC with the same amount of money.
 

For sure, many bitcoiners question the extent to which various individuals, institutions and/or governments participate in and/or promote various systems that end up creating and/or relying upon systems that seem to become unaccountable within actual onchain bitcoin systems in terms of not being able to verify the extent to which such systems are creating paper bitcoin without accounting for the extent to which the bitcoin that are supposedly backing up such paper bitcoin systems are backed up by actual bitcoin and/or the extent to which unaccounted bitcoin are being allowed to proliferate without any seeming boundaries and diluting the seeming supply and price of actual bitcoin based on fakety-fake bitcoin that are not verifiably accounted for and not being rehypothecated.. and even the use of bitcoin as a debt instrument (such as using bitcoin for collateral) could become problematic in the dilution of the bitcoin supply when the bitcoin are turned over to third parties that are allowed to loan them out rather than keeping such bitcoin in an onchain storable way...

The issue of paper Bitcoin is valid, but it is easier to distinguish real Bitcoin on the blockchain from nominal claims made by third-party custodial or financial systems. Bitcoin's on-chain supply is directly verifiable, and a claim to Bitcoin held in a custody, exchange, lending, or similar account is as good as the trustworthiness of the institution that owns it.

It gets trickier when BTC is used as collateral or when a custodian lends coins to a second party. The same real Bitcoin can back two separate claims, even if it does not literally increase the amount of BTC on-chain. That does not literally create more Bitcoin, but it can create more claims against the same coins and counterparty risk.

For users, what matters is the difference between owning native BTC in their own possession and owing a claim on a claim through a third party. Having proof of reserves, transparent liabilities, well-documented custody practices and reliable audits can all combat uncertainty, but each with trade-offs. It's important to understand that difference when talking about Bitcoin's fixed supply and the risks of financial products built upon it.

None of us likely have to have the answers to these various questions that attempt to transition bitcoin into modern financial systems and practices in ways that bitcoin may well end up being ongoingly attacked by such modern financial systems, yet at the same time, many of us still consider bitcoin to be more powerful than various traditional assets (such as gold) based on the ability of  individuals to claim possession of the bitcoin that they believe they have and perhaps to have some skepticism when they are participating in systems that facilitate an allowance of the creation and the perpetuation of paper bitcoin, including various systems in which the third parties (whether ETFs or bitcoin treasury companies or exchanges or other third party custodians) may well not have anywhere close to the number of bitcoins under their control as they claim to have.

The key concern here lies in the discrepancy between having direct ownership of Bitcoins and having an ownership claim to Bitcoins via a third party. The on-chain supply of Bitcoin is capped; however, financial instruments are able to generate claims based on whether custodians hold enough BTC to back such claims. This is the reason why transparency and proof of reserve are important. With self-custody, one has the ability to prove and control his or her own bitcoins, whereas with third-party custody, trust in the institution is necessary.

Huh?  How would you know what percentage of bitcoin HODLers are investing it to merely get profits?  Did you do your own private survey, or do you have some credible source for your seemingly out of your ass made up statistic?

Without having a properly formulated survey, it's hard to determine what percentage of Bitcoin holders that their primary motivation is to turn a profit. Because they are so dissimilar, people also have a lot of different reasons why they could be holding Bitcoin: long-term investing, diversification of assets, savings, speculation, pure belief.

However, there is some good news. According to a Fidelity Digital Assets report that sourced data from Glassnode, nearly 45% of Bitcoin investors were buy-and-hold participants. And of those investors, 30% owned Bitcoin for at least five years, and 15% for ten years or more.

A separate Coin Gecko poll revealed that 93.9% of survey crypto owners used crypto as a long-term investment, although this was with the given of crypto holders in general as opposed to just Bitcoin-only owners.

Therefore, assuming an x amount of percent of Bitcoin HODLers are in it for profit without having collected data on the issue directly is pure speculation, unless the survey question asked that specific question to begin with. Keep the source of data apart from assumptions.

You seem to be presuming that you know (beyond your own preferences) some kind of level of knowledge that you believe that bitcoin newbies need to have beyond just being able to calculate the extent to which they have discretionary funds.

Your perspective about the needed knowledge level of bitcoin newbies comes off as patronizing.

Why shouldn't a bitcoin newbie be able to figure out for himself whether to start buying bitcoin and/or how much to start buying merely based on his assessment that he has discretionary funds?  Why does he need to pass through some kind of a Gaza13 litmus test before he is able to determine whether and/or how much to put into bitcoin?

Having discretionary money is definitely a good place to start, but I think that there's a difference between having money and knowing what the risk is when you put it into Bitcoin. You don't need to run any sort of litmus test to buy Bitcoin, you should just do it for yourself.

But. Knowing a few things can lead to a better decision: Knowing about Bitcoin price volatility, losing money, custody & security, and knowing about investing vs. trading can avoid avoidable mistakes. Also, the money to invest should be comfortable enough that the loss of a large price drop is not a financial burden.

The whole point is that we should not be trying to stop newcomers from buying Bitcoin, but rather to get them to understand what they are actually buying and buy only the amount that their own financial circumstances allow.

[Perfect-World]

You seem to be presuming that you know (beyond your own preferences) some kind of level of knowledge that you believe that bitcoin newbies need to have beyond just being able to calculate the extent to which they have discretionary funds.

Your perspective about the needed knowledge level of bitcoin newbies comes off as patronizing.

Why shouldn't a bitcoin newbie be able to figure out for himself whether to start buying bitcoin and/or how much to start buying merely based on his assessment that he has discretionary funds?  Why does he need to pass through some kind of a Gaza13 litmus test before he is able to determine whether and/or how much to put into bitcoin?

Having discretionary money is definitely a good place to start, but I think that there's a difference between having money and knowing what the risk is when you put it into Bitcoin. You don't need to run any sort of litmus test to buy Bitcoin, you should just do it for yourself.

But. Knowing a few things can lead to a better decision: Knowing about Bitcoin price volatility, losing money, custody & security, and knowing about investing vs. trading can avoid avoidable mistakes. Also, the money to invest should be comfortable enough that the loss of a large price drop is not a financial burden.

@Gragebox, you are laying too much emphasis on knowing this, knowing that, which I think might become problematic and/or confusing for the newbie who only got into Bitcoin investment and needa some time to learn things gradually without pressure of  knowing everything all at once before starting.

Sure, getting knowledge about Bitcoin investment is okay, but it's shouldn't be the measurement for a good start or an in investor that will do very well. The major thing that he needs to know and/or do is having the ability to figure out what his discretionary income is, and if this is done, investing can begin, and probably, using the DCA to buy in little quantities while he slowly figures things out and learn a better way(s) to ongoingly buy Bitcoin. Laying too much emphasis on 'knowing' may serve as a deterrent for newbies to kick start there investment journey.

[laijsica]

For sure there tends to be quite a bit of value in attempting to set our expectations within realistic boundaries that largely accept and even anticipate the possibility for a variety of possible scenarios to play out, even if our preferences may well amount to a hope that in the longer trend, such as 4-10 years or longer that bitcoin continues to trend upwardly in value, while at the same time, in the earlier years of our bitcoin accumulation, we likely prefer that bitcoin prices do not trend up too rapidly during the earliest of stages in which we may well be building up the size of our own bitcoin stash.

When accumulating Bitcoin, we want the price to continue its journey through declines or some wait for a long time for DIP. Some will have the intention to reach a high price in a short time but in reality the market maintains a balancing state with the demand of investors. In fact in the long term there is considerable value in the concerted efforts of investors.

Literally, in the early years of investment, it is a good attitude to expect the price of Bitcoin to decline. If the expectations are high at the beginning, the risk will also be high in that situation. We need to adopt a comfortable policy from the initial stage of accumulating Bitcoin to build a Bitcoin portfolio.

[Primark]

Is knowledge itself not particularly important for those just starting to invest? Buying without knowing anything about Bitcoin or how it works I think it’s quite foolish to overlook this.

No one here is suggesting that a brand new person who has never been familiar with Bitcoin should jump in and invest without knowing anything. Rather, the advice here is that people should not rush into acquiring additional knowledge when starting out. You need to understand two things, there is a realistic position between being completely ignorant and having enough knowledge.

If a new person is given mandatory conditions to know the technical, financial aspects of Bitcoin, wallet knowledge, self-custody at the beginning, then perhaps we are forcing him to do something for which he may not be mentally ready. Therefore, it is advised that if he has discretionary income at the beginning, he can start from the exchange with a small amount. The point to understand here is that there is a difference between starting with a small amount for the purpose of learning and jumping into a large amount for the purpose of profit without understanding. Even if someone does not know about self-custody, wallet at the beginning, he still gets the opportunity to start with a small amount from the exchange. At the same time, he does not have to wait and gets the opportunity to learn through real experience. Later, when he gradually becomes aware of self-custody, wallet, security, scams, he will be able to decide for himself.

[JayJuanGee]

For sure there tends to be quite a bit of value in attempting to set our expectations within realistic boundaries that largely accept and even anticipate the possibility for a variety of possible scenarios to play out, even if our preferences may well amount to a hope that in the longer trend, such as 4-10 years or longer that bitcoin continues to trend upwardly in value, while at the same time, in the earlier years of our bitcoin accumulation, we likely prefer that bitcoin prices do not trend up too rapidly during the earliest of stages in which we may well be building up the size of our own bitcoin stash.

Realism is vital when buying Bitcoin. Price fluctuations in the short term can be quite random, so having an expectation that prices will be going up all the time can put undue stress on you. Bitcoin has a finite supply of 21 million coins, but it doesn’t mean that because it’s scarce, its price will go up. Factors such as demand, market environment, regulation, adoption, and investor sentiment can influence its price.

When buying Bitcoin for the long term, having a strategy and being ready for price fluctuations might prove more useful than trying to forecast every cycle. If a person still hasn’t completed his position, then he might want to use low-price periods to buy more BTC with the same amount of money.

I tend to believe that there is not much value in suggesting that guys should hold back value so that they can buy bitcoin on dips that might not end up happening, and it is likely a much better strategy for many guys whether new or not to just ongoingly buy bitcoin without changing their bitcoin buy strategies based on their perceptions of whether the bitcoin price is up, down or sideways.

You have been registered on the forum for nearly 3 years (since November 2023) and what have you been doing during that time since you have been here?  Have you been fucking around trying to figure out dips or have you been ongoingly and persistently buying bitcoin on a regular and consistent basis?

For sure, many bitcoiners question the extent to which various individuals, institutions and/or governments participate in and/or promote various systems that end up creating and/or relying upon systems that seem to become unaccountable within actual onchain bitcoin systems in terms of not being able to verify the extent to which such systems are creating paper bitcoin without accounting for the extent to which the bitcoin that are supposedly backing up such paper bitcoin systems are backed up by actual bitcoin and/or the extent to which unaccounted bitcoin are being allowed to proliferate without any seeming boundaries and diluting the seeming supply and price of actual bitcoin based on fakety-fake bitcoin that are not verifiably accounted for and not being rehypothecated.. and even the use of bitcoin as a debt instrument (such as using bitcoin for collateral) could become problematic in the dilution of the bitcoin supply when the bitcoin are turned over to third parties that are allowed to loan them out rather than keeping such bitcoin in an onchain storable way...

The issue of paper Bitcoin is valid, but it is easier to distinguish real Bitcoin on the blockchain from nominal claims made by third-party custodial or financial systems. Bitcoin's on-chain supply is directly verifiable, and a claim to Bitcoin held in a custody, exchange, lending, or similar account is as good as the trustworthiness of the institution that owns it.

I don't know if you can establish trust of institutions based on their claims of having the bitcoin unless they are engaging in practices to ongoingly show proof of their reserves, and there are not very many institutions engaging in those kinds of proof of reserve showing practices.  There are actually quite a few of them who proclaim that they have no need to show proof of their reserves and they are kind of bragging about their assertions that they do not have to show proof of reserves.

 

It gets trickier when BTC is used as collateral or when a custodian lends coins to a second party. The same real Bitcoin can back two separate claims, even if it does not literally increase the amount of BTC on-chain. That does not literally create more Bitcoin, but it can create more claims against the same coins and counterparty risk.

What is the difference?  If one bitcoin has 5 to 10 or even more claims against it, then there tends to be a kind of dilution, unless some kind of a market movement forces the rehypothecator to actually back up its claims, so surely if there were to be runs on the bank for those entities only holding 10% or 20% of the bitcoin that they claim to have claims on, then surely there will be problems in those kinds of situations for the folks doing business with that entity that is unable to deliver the actual bitcoin that they claim to have.  You want to make a distinction merely because they are claims against bitcoin rather than the creation of new bitcoin?  for all intents and purposes, there is not really any meaningful distinction since in essence in the example that I gave of 5 to 10 claims per each bitcoin the third party does not have enough bitcoin to back up the claims against the bitcoin.

 

For users, what matters is the difference between owning native BTC in their own possession and owing a claim on a claim through a third party. Having proof of reserves, transparent liabilities, well-documented custody practices and reliable audits can all combat uncertainty, but each with trade-offs. It's important to understand that difference when talking about Bitcoin's fixed supply and the risks of financial products built upon it.

Sure.  You recognize that the whole current situation remains problematic, and we are likely going to have ongoing issues in which some entities may well might end up getting themselves into situations in which they are not able to be bailed out and the only way to really resolve the matter is to fuck over some of the folks who have the bitcoin claims with either completely taking their bitcoin or reimbursing them with ONLY a fraction of the bitcoin that they thought that they had.

None of us likely have to have the answers to these various questions that attempt to transition bitcoin into modern financial systems and practices in ways that bitcoin may well end up being ongoingly attacked by such modern financial systems, yet at the same time, many of us still consider bitcoin to be more powerful than various traditional assets (such as gold) based on the ability of  individuals to claim possession of the bitcoin that they believe they have and perhaps to have some skepticism when they are participating in systems that facilitate an allowance of the creation and the perpetuation of paper bitcoin, including various systems in which the third parties (whether ETFs or bitcoin treasury companies or exchanges or other third party custodians) may well not have anywhere close to the number of bitcoins under their control as they claim to have.

The key concern here lies in the discrepancy between having direct ownership of Bitcoins and having an ownership claim to Bitcoins via a third party. The on-chain supply of Bitcoin is capped; however, financial instruments are able to generate claims based on whether custodians hold enough BTC to back such claims. This is the reason why transparency and proof of reserve are important. With self-custody, one has the ability to prove and control his or her own bitcoins, whereas with third-party custody, trust in the institution is necessary.

We are largely singing the same tune in regards to these points.

 

Huh?  How would you know what percentage of bitcoin HODLers are investing it to merely get profits?  Did you do your own private survey, or do you have some credible source for your seemingly out of your ass made up statistic?

Without having a properly formulated survey, it's hard to determine what percentage of Bitcoin holders that their primary motivation is to turn a profit. Because they are so dissimilar, people also have a lot of different reasons why they could be holding Bitcoin: long-term investing, diversification of assets, savings, speculation, pure belief.

Ok?  but who cares?  The main idea is that they tend to be disadvantaged when they keep coins on third parties, yet we cannot really stop people from doing it based on both convenience and/or their own lack of knowledge or effort to self-custody their coins.

 

However, there is some good news. According to a Fidelity Digital Assets report that sourced data from Glassnode, nearly 45% of Bitcoin investors were buy-and-hold participants. And of those investors, 30% owned Bitcoin for at least five years, and 15% for ten years or more.

Sure.  Perhaps that is good news.

A separate Coin Gecko poll revealed that 93.9% of survey crypto owners used crypto as a long-term investment, although this was with the given of crypto holders in general as opposed to just Bitcoin-only owners.

I don't know what crypto has to do with this discussion, since who gives any shits about crypto, but if you are using the term crypto to mean bitcoin, then it makes you sound a bit retarded to be using the term crypto to refer to bitcoin, since crypto is nearly irrelevant to the discussions in this thread unless you can give some reason for using such vague, misleading and/or confusing term.

 

Therefore, assuming an x amount of percent of Bitcoin HODLers are in it for profit without having collected data on the issue directly is pure speculation, unless the survey question asked that specific question to begin with. Keep the source of data apart from assumptions.

Sure.  Bitcoin holders can be into bitcoin for number go up technology as well as the self-sovereignty aspects of bitcoin, yet on a personal basis they are not really getting self-sovereignty aspects of bitcoin by holding bitcoin through third parties (or at least they may well be getting a diluted form of self-sovereignty to the extent that they might have the ability to in-kind redeem their bitcoin, which might not always be the case in certain kinds of relations that individuals had entered into with their third party custodian.

 

You seem to be presuming that you know (beyond your own preferences) some kind of level of knowledge that you believe that bitcoin newbies need to have beyond just being able to calculate the extent to which they have discretionary funds.

Your perspective about the needed knowledge level of bitcoin newbies comes off as patronizing.

Why shouldn't a bitcoin newbie be able to figure out for himself whether to start buying bitcoin and/or how much to start buying merely based on his assessment that he has discretionary funds?  Why does he need to pass through some kind of a Gaza13 litmus test before he is able to determine whether and/or how much to put into bitcoin?

Having discretionary money is definitely a good place to start, but I think that there's a difference between having money and knowing what the risk is when you put it into Bitcoin. You don't need to run any sort of litmus test to buy Bitcoin, you should just do it for yourself.

This is a vague concept and framework that you are describing.

 

But. Knowing a few things can lead to a better decision: Knowing about Bitcoin price volatility, losing money, custody & security, and knowing about investing vs. trading can avoid avoidable mistakes.

Sure guys have various levels of understanding bitcoin and they likely learn more about bitcoin the longer they are into bitcoin, to the extent that they might research into it rather than just passively buy it.  There is nothing wrong with learning, and perhaps guys who learn more and who become more comfortable with bitcoin will increase their confidence to invest into bitcoin more aggressively based on their increasing their knowledge levels.

 

Also, the money to invest should be comfortable enough that the loss of a large price drop is not a financial burden.

The whole point is that we should not be trying to stop newcomers from buying Bitcoin, but rather to get them to understand what they are actually buying and buy only the amount that their own financial circumstances allow.

You think that any of us has any obligation to teach and/or to train newcomers rather than newcomers having obligations to figure out both bitcoin investing and/or cashflow management?

In this post you have outlined a quite a few vague concepts and I am not sure how much you are attempting to interact with me and my various bitcoin investment ideas or to propagate your own seemingly all over the place ideas. It can be quite exhausting to explore vague and/or difficult to substantiate ideas rather than attempting to stick to more concrete ideas, so hopefully you can figure out some of my actual ideas that I have been sharing in this thread and to try to put your responses in the context of the various investment ideas that I have so that we can try to stay on topic without deviating into abstract theories are somewhat related to bitcoin but also difficult to prove either way..

[Sammysmart001]

This distinction is very important, because some people overlook this aspect of investing and often treat this two thing as if they are the same. this can also serve as guide for newbie to know the difference between discretionary and money they can afford to lose.

This distinction is easy to overlook most especially for beginners, after attending to your expenses you having money left doesn’t automatically all of the money should go into Bitcoin. Cause some of that money will be needed for incase emergencies, important plans or even savings.
To be able to stay consistent, the separation of this funds will be useful, you will be less likely to panic when you keep a reasonable reserve outside Bitcoin. With this you less likely to sell your Bitcoin because of an unexpected expense that comes up. This makes your investment plan more sustainable instead of treating any available funds that meant for Bitcoin. 

[Gragebox]

You have been registered on the forum for nearly 3 years (since November 2023) and what have you been doing during that time since you have been here?  Have you been fucking around trying to figure out dips or have you been ongoingly and persistently buying bitcoin on a regular and consistent basis?

@JayJuanGee
Although I have been on this forum for three long years, just because I have not been active here for three years does not mean that I have not invested in Bitcoin.
Actually, I started investing in Bitcoin around 2018 and since then I have been increasing my Bitcoin holdings. However, I became active on this forum again when I needed more knowledge about Bitcoin. Especially so that I can share my knowledge with everyone.

Anyway, it is true that there is no need to wait for the price to drop, because we have seen how Bitcoin has corrected in the past years. We do not need to be afraid of investing in Bitcoin, because I think that even if the price of Bitcoin is completely dumped, it is still very likely to pump up later.
Anyway, I do not want to confuse anyone here, I just wanted to share my knowledge here.
 Honestly, I believe that if we have an idea about Bitcoin and we have patience, then we can invest in Bitcoin for the long term. But at that time, we have to use money that we can afford to lose and so that there is no bad effect on our Bitcoin holding in the future. But I have created another emergency fund for this, so that if I need any urgent money in the future, I can solve my problem from there. So that there is no bad effect on my Bitcoin investment.
So I think if someone wants to invest in Bitcoin, then if they buy Bitcoin using the DCA method without looking at the market, then they will definitely benefit in the future.

[Perfect-World]

For sure there tends to be quite a bit of value in attempting to set our expectations within realistic boundaries that largely accept and even anticipate the possibility for a variety of possible scenarios to play out, even if our preferences may well amount to a hope that in the longer trend, such as 4-10 years or longer that bitcoin continues to trend upwardly in value, while at the same time, in the earlier years of our bitcoin accumulation, we likely prefer that bitcoin prices do not trend up too rapidly during the earliest of stages in which we may well be building up the size of our own bitcoin stash.

When accumulating Bitcoin, we want the price to continue its journey through declines

Can you prove this claim? It's only ridiculous for someone who has already started his investment to keep wishing that the price keeps declining. How possible is that? If you say that some poeple wait for Dip before they start there investment, it is quite understandable, though not a better investment approach, but for an investor who is already in the market to keep wishing that the price keeps declining seems unrealistic to me, because even though your point seems to project that he wants further decline so that he can buy more in little price, what also happens to his already accumulated coins in the process, aren't they also declining?

Investors in the market would want an upward price movement. The Dip is just an opportunity to increase there portfolio and buy more with little amounts.

Literally, in the early years of investment, it is a good attitude to expect the price of Bitcoin to decline. If the expectations are high at the beginning, the risk will also be high in that situation. We need to adopt a comfortable policy from the initial stage of accumulating Bitcoin to build a Bitcoin portfolio.

Can you possibly mention one of your presumed comfortable policy for a newbie who just started his investment? Looking for comfortable policies that you say claim may keep the newbie away from starting immediately or even delay the newly started investor from concentrating in building up his investment all in the name of trying to find a good policy.

Secondly, early stages of our investment may not be comfortable or do not need to be comfortable for newbies since they are only just starting there investment and still need some more time to figure out better ways of going on with there investment. They may struggle initially while finding a more suitable income allocation and/or income management for there investments. So, they may not necessarily be comfortable at the beginning but with time, they can adjust and do better.

[AYAKAY]

that framework for long-term btc holding and cashflow mgmt is solid af. totally feel u on reverse-engineering personal finances and risk tolerance instead of trading blind. cut out all the market noise and just stack systematically—thats the only way to actually survive this game long-term without getting rekt.

[NewRevelation]

You have been registered on the forum for nearly 3 years (since November 2023) and what have you been doing during that time since you have been here?  Have you been fucking around trying to figure out dips or have you been ongoingly and persistently buying bitcoin on a regular and consistent basis?

@JayJuanGee
Although I have been on this forum for three long years, just because I have not been active here for three years does not mean that I have not invested in Bitcoin.
Actually, I started investing in Bitcoin around 2018 and since then I have been increasing my Bitcoin holdings. However, I became active on this forum again when I needed more knowledge about Bitcoin. Especially so that I can share my knowledge with everyone.

Anyway, it is true that there is no need to wait for the price to drop, because we have seen how Bitcoin has corrected in the past years. We do not need to be afraid of investing in Bitcoin, because I think that even if the price of Bitcoin is completely dumped, it is still very likely to pump up later.
Anyway, I do not want to confuse anyone here, I just wanted to share my knowledge here.
 Honestly, I believe that if we have an idea about Bitcoin and we have patience, then we can invest in Bitcoin for the long term. But at that time, we have to use money that we can afford to lose and so that there is no bad effect on our Bitcoin holding in the future. But I have created another emergency fund for this, so that if I need any urgent money in the future, I can solve my problem from there. So that there is no bad effect on my Bitcoin investment.
So I think if someone wants to invest in Bitcoin, then if they buy Bitcoin using the DCA method without looking at the market, then they will definitely benefit in the future.

The right investment name is 'Discretionary income', the money remaining after you must have settled your basic needs. Any investment made outside it may crash anytime because it is invested with the wrong funds.

You also mentioned creating another emergency funds for your investment. It is important to note that your discretionary income also serves the purpose of creating an emergency funds too. You don't invest all your discretionary, but we try to share our discretionary into three(3) parts, 1)for buying Bitcoin, 2) creating back up funds and 3)for your discretionary spending.

This helps you keep up consistently with your investment, and also building your emergency funds and other back up funds and at the same time giving yourself some personal treat when necessary.