Can you answer a couple of questions to a potential bitcoin buyer?

[BlackHatCoiner]

The following remain purposely unanswered.

Do we agree that if two individuals find it satisfactory, it instantly gains value? (Whether that's personal or market value)

So here's my question, is it reasonable for some people to not want to deal with debt? What's the problem if two individuals want to accomplish a purchase by the way I described?

You ought to respect those people who have different political beliefs than you. No?

[1715104936]

1715104936

[franky1]

Irrelevant. All dollars come on the market by borrowers collecting goods, services and labour from people and all dollars are withdrawn from the market by borrowers returning these things to people. It all functions only because the banks force borrowers to repay their loans. In other words, the banks protect people. Your rants are irrelevant in that regard.

bitcoin comes with a base value window due to its mining cost(variable due to regional cost differences). where no one wants to mine at a loss and so no one tries selling at a loss
the acquirer than has his acquisition costs and he too does not want to make a loss

the market price sits somewhere between the cheap/premium value window

bank loans have NO upfront cost. banks literally print the money out of no where.
banks then ask for it back plus X% extra, where the literally destroy the capital returned(to re allot themselves with loan capacity for future loans) and keep just the x% they use the x% to cover the banks costs from other services they offer

a loan being made has no contract with anyone else but the borrower and the bank
a borrower does not owe anything to the general population. all he owes is the bank

when you set up a savings deposit account.. there is no mention, no term or condition that mentions your funds being contracted out to a loan.

the funds of the loan are not general population funds redistributed

[Antithesis]

The following remain purposely unanswered.

Do we agree that if two individuals find it satisfactory, it instantly gains value? (Whether that's personal or market value)

So here's my question, is it reasonable for some people to not want to deal with debt? What's the problem if two individuals want to accomplish a purchase by the way I described?

You ought to respect those people who have different political beliefs than you. No?

Two people can trade house for a grain of sand. That doesn't make the latter valuable but one of the people irrational.

Irrelevant. All dollars come on the market by borrowers collecting goods, services and labour from people and all dollars are withdrawn from the market by borrowers returning these things to people. It all functions only because the banks force borrowers to repay their loans. In other words, the banks protect people. Your rants are irrelevant in that regard.

bitcoin comes with a base value window due to its mining cost(variable due to regional cost differences). where no one wants to mine at a loss and so no one tries selling at a loss
the acquirer than has his acquisition costs and he too does not want to make a loss

the market price sits somewhere between the cheap/premium value window

bank loans have NO upfront cost. banks literally print the money out of no where.
banks then ask for it back plus X% extra, where the literally destroy the capital returned(to re allot themselves with loan capacity for future loans) and keep just the x% they use the x% to cover the banks costs from other services they offer

a loan being made has no contract with anyone else but the borrower and the bank
a borrower does not owe anything to the general population. all he owes is the bank

when you set up a savings deposit account.. there is no mention, no term or condition that mentions your funds being contracted out to a loan.

the funds of the loan are not general population funds redistributed

Bitcoin is created out of thin air via simple program function. No mining is going on. After POW, the program simply pays you with a worthless number. I, as a buyer am asking why would I give you anything for it? I don't care how much electricity you spend to provide POW. That's your problem.

Regarding fiat, you keep talking about irrelevant things and ignore the only important one.

[BlackHatCoiner]

Two people can trade house for a grain of sand. That doesn't make the latter valuable but one of the people irrational.

The grain of sand example again. This discussion has got to the point where it restarts. It's a loop. You call irrational people who evaluate differently than you do, because they may have a different treatment.

Welcome to my troll list.

[goldkingcoiner]

Looking at some of your previous threads ( "Bitcoin Doesn’t Exist, Or How Satoshi Nakamoto Tells Lies To People", "Bitcoin is like a token of Trump's bankrupt casino" and "Bitcoin Exists Only in Satoshi's Imagination" ), you are not potential bitcoin buyer, so no point really getting into any sort of argument with you, your mind is set. Or to quote Satoshi, "If you don't believe it or don't get it, I don't have the time to try to convince you, sorry."

I absolutely agree with what this guy is saying. At this point, its just basically a troll who is not interested in investing in Bitcoin anyway.

If you have made up your mind, then thats that. Or perhaps you are having self doubts when it comes to finally buying in? A lot of people like that finally decide to buy Bitcoin and panic sell when things go downwards. They push the blame on Bitcoin, instead of having a bad mental state that they produced themselves. And all that bitterness just gathers and becomes larger when Bitcoin goes up without them, again.

The original poster does not seem serious about investing. No point in giving him advice for basic questions that can easily be googled.

[24Kt]

Looking at some of your previous threads ( "Bitcoin Doesn’t Exist, Or How Satoshi Nakamoto Tells Lies To People", "Bitcoin is like a token of Trump's bankrupt casino" and "Bitcoin Exists Only in Satoshi's Imagination" ), you are not potential bitcoin buyer, so no point really getting into any sort of argument with you, your mind is set. Or to quote Satoshi, "If you don't believe it or don't get it, I don't have the time to try to convince you, sorry."

I absolutely agree with what this guy is saying. At this point, its just basically a troll who is not interested in investing in Bitcoin anyway.

If you have made up your mind, then thats that. Or perhaps you are having self doubts when it comes to finally buying in? A lot of people like that finally decide to buy Bitcoin and panic sell when things go downwards. They push the blame on Bitcoin, instead of having a bad mental state that they produced themselves. And all that bitterness just gathers and becomes larger when Bitcoin goes up without them, again.

The original poster does not seem serious about investing. No point in giving him advice for basic questions that can easily be googled.

Also, he will find so many reasons why he will not buy bitcoin if he is not really into btc. But if you want to get a hold of btc, whether small or big investments, there's no reason for anyone to convince him because him alone can do the research about btc or crypto. We are already in this digital age where basically you can educate yourself by simple google search. Much better if no one is convincing you because at the end of the day, it is your money and it is your responsibility to take care of your assets.

[Iron Fist]

I, as a buyer am asking why would I give you anything for it? I don't care how much electricity you spend to provide POW. That's your problem.

As I said before, you are right, and you shouldn't. And no one should try to convince you otherwise. But your problem is that you keep asking the same questions over and over again. What do you hope to accomplish with this topic?

Regarding fiat, you keep talking about irrelevant things and ignore the only important one.

It's just your opinion. What you find irrelevant may not be irrelevant to others. Try to be a little more open-minded.

[franky1]

Bitcoin is created out of thin air via simple program function. No mining is going on. After POW, the program simply pays you with a worthless number. I, as a buyer am asking why would I give you anything for it? I don't care how much electricity you spend to provide POW. That's your problem.

Regarding fiat, you keep talking about irrelevant things and ignore the only important one.

bitcoin is created out of a complex program function that costs alot of electricity to compute, people want to get paid for that complex and expensive work

regards to fiat. you keep talking about irrelevant and non existent securities and liabilities, where you think you are owed or guaranteed something. i showed you that you are not owed anything bar a service of swapping a crumbled note on deposit for a crisp note on withdrawal, where the banks can charge you for this service.
borrowers do not owe you anything, your value is not given to borrowers

no one got a FDIC cheque in the post when the banks failed in 2008
what they got was their value was devalued and now paying extra tax or getting less public services due to banks failing in 2008.
.. getting back to bitcoin because you pretend to want to know how the value is established

its not actually just 2 people wanting it and they both pick a random number and find a middle ground

its actually where those that have coin know the cost of their acquisition. and they will refuse to sell at a loss, obviously

if they fresh mined the coin in 2010. the difficulty of the math was cheap. meaning it had a $0.01 to $0.10 cost depending on electric costs around the world

ok ill make some things simple
in say 2010. imagine there were 120 people mining bitcoin at the same time.
lets say in fairness to randomness. each person had equal strength computers so all had the same equal chance
30 machines in china,
30 machines in america,
30 machines in the UK,
30 machines in germany,

because there are only ~6 blocks an hour. it takes a 20 hour period to cover each person getting their chance hit.

meaning they are using 20 hours of electric to get 50coins in 2010
in china at 4cent electric/khw using a desktop pc of 500w thats 2cent an hour and $0.40 for that 20 hour period for 50coin=0.8c/coin
in america at 12cent electric/khw using a desktop pc of 500w thats 6cent an hour and $1.20 for that 20 hour period for 50coin=2.4c/coin
in the UK at 18cent electric/khw using a desktop pc of 500w thats 9cent an hour and $1.80 for that 20 hour period for 50coin=3.6c/coin
in germany at 38cent electric/khw using a desktop pc of 500w thats 19cent an hour and $3.80 for that 20 hour period for 50coin=7.6c/coin

so around the world people could mine for between the value window of 0.8c-7.6c per coin

now lets imagine no one wants to sell their coin at a loss
germany wont make an offer for less than 8cent
the UK wont make an offer for less than 4cent
america  wont make an offer for less than 3cent
china wont make an offer for less than 1cent

lets say america tried to sell it for 10cents. .. no one is buying because everyone on the planet can mine for under 8cent. so no deal
then say america tried to sell it for 9cents. .. no one is buying because everyone on the planet can mine for under 8cent. so no deal
then say america tried to sell it for 8cents. .. someone in germany cant be bothered mining so takes the slight premium. so 8cent. deal

now what happens is people start to see it has a price.
and people in china can see they can 8x their cost. so they start using 4x machines
and people in america can see they can 3.3x their cost. so they start using 2x machines
and people in america can see they can 2.2x their cost. so they start using 1.5x machines
people in germany are breaking even so they dont bother adding more machines


now the landscape of machines is
120 machines in china,
60 machines in america,
45 machines in the UK,
30 machines in germany,
totalling 255 machines, meaning 42hours 30minutes for fairness chance for all

so costs are now
in china 1.7c/coin
in america 5.1c/coin
in the UK 7.6c/coin
in germany 16.2c/coin

china, america, the UK can still sell at 8cent and make a profit.
but now germany stop mining because the market is cheaper to buy than it is to mine.
so germany just buy coin. buying up all the coin at 8c available
because germany are willing to buy for anything below their mining cost of 16c. and germany are high demand. america pushes up its price to 9c, 10cent to see where the demand dips

lets say it plateaus at 14cent
now because the market has a value window of 1.7cent-17 cent. but the ATH is 14cent
because china can make 8x again they again 4x their machines, america 2.5x its machines and UK dont expand its machines
germany doesnt mine this week, they just buy coin, as its easier and cheaper
machines in china, become 480
machines in america, become 150
machines in the UK, stay at 45
totalling 675 machines meaning 112.5 hours mining for each to have a chance

so costs are now
in china 2.25c/coin
in america 6.75c/coin
in the UK 10.125c/coin

in germany if they were to mine it would cost them 21cent
so the value window is now 2.25c-21.37c

imagine all american coins got sold at 14cent. and demand is depleting because germans had enough
UK and china try selling coins at 14cent.and as they run out of the coins they hoarded all week. the price also depletes due to filling depleting demand, so say the price settles down to 11cent
its still between the 2-21c value window. but the price inside that window is not as much as the 14cent ATH

because china can still 3x and make a profit at 11cen. china 2x their machines. but the UK dont bother mining this week, america doesnt add more
machines in china, become 960
machines in america, stays at 150
taking 185 hours for each machine to have a chance hit

china 3.7c/coin (its not 4.5c thanks to UK dropping out and US not multiplying  )
america 11.1c/coin (thanks to UK dropping but no thanks to china for doubling up )
because the price is 11cent and america cost is 11.6cent. they buy instead of expand machines.
the price rises to 12cent

if uk mined 16.6c
if germany mined 35c

now the market has any left over german buyers still wanting more coin
UK still wants coin
so UK and germany buy coin.

if the price rises to new ATH UK starts mining again.
news hits the media about bitcoin and now new speculators that dont know the complexities of mining just want to buy coin. so the price moves up to above 20cent. UK starts mining again. and the price moves forward. as does the mining cost.  which then brings up the value window

pre-empting your repeated questions:
why are they buying it?... because it has a cost. which some regions find it cheaper to buy it rather then mine it
why are they buying it? because bitcoin does something banks dont do the same way.
why are they buying it? it offers lots of features and benefits banks cant offer.

[nurilham]

Therefore not everyone understands and invests in Bitcoin because it takes a good understanding of Bitcoin itself so that we know the pluses and advantages over other investments. People who invest in Bitcoin or other cryptos must dare to act and be responsible for the assets that they have and not everyone can do it well. I think Bitcoin investment is preferable to other investments if we can manage it well and for security issues so far Bitcoin is safe if we can store it well. so it all depends on each individual to utilize Bitcoin how to get profit.

[franky1]

so it all depends on each individual to utilize Bitcoin how to get profit.

not just mining, not just exchange buying. other ways are for instance become a merchant

if you have 1btc at $41k
and you know a dropshipper(wholesaler) who accepts btc.
buy 41000 t-shirts at 0.00002439 each ($1)
set up a BTC t-shirt site
selling shirts for profit 0.00012195 each ($5)
if you only sell 8200 t-shirt. you break even and get your 1btc back
if you sell all 41,000 t-shirt. you get 5btc  x5

if you dont like t-shirt and dont have $41k to spare, but do have $4.1k and prefer to sell coffee
with 0.1btc find a coffee wholesaler where 0.1btc buys you 20,500 cups of coffee
meaning cost 0.00000488 per cup (20cent per spoonful)
set up a cafe. selling coffee
selling it at  0.00004880 per cup ($2 per coffee)

even if you sell only 10% (2050 cups) you break even to get your 0.1btc back
if you sell all coffee supply (20500 cups) you break even to get your 1btc x10

[Antithesis]

Two people can trade house for a grain of sand. That doesn't make the latter valuable but one of the people irrational.

The grain of sand example again. This discussion has got to the point where it restarts. It's a loop. You call irrational people who evaluate differently than you do, because they may have a different treatment.

Welcome to my troll list.

Yes, people can behave irrational and stupid when driven by greed or fear. This is known phenomenon. Giving a house for a grain of sand is a stupid behavior. Giving a house for a number as well. The same is true for giving your debt ownership (fiat) for a place in a database. Here, I was asking you people why would I do that, why would I make irrational or stupid trades. And still, I got no answer. That's because no one can provide rational explanation for a behavior based on greed or fear.

I, as a buyer am asking why would I give you anything for it? I don't care how much electricity you spend to provide POW. That's your problem.

As I said before, you are right, and you shouldn't. And no one should try to convince you otherwise. But your problem is that you keep asking the same questions over and over again. What do you hope to accomplish with this topic?

Regarding fiat, you keep talking about irrelevant things and ignore the only important one.

It's just your opinion. What you find irrelevant may not be irrelevant to others. Try to be a little more open-minded.

It's not about convincing me of anything. I am simply asking you for a rational reason to accept offers in the bitcoin market. I don't buy on greed nor sell on fear. I don't trade blindly. With CFDs I am betting on the price based on supply/demand areas on charts. But that's buying contracts from a broker. Bitcoin is not a contract. Bitcoin is only a number in a database that my wallet application reads and shows on the screen of my mobile phone. Why should I buy a number? Why would I pay a specific price for it? Why $38,000 and not $0.0001? If someone would offer me a bond with $1,000 face value and maturity in two years for $800, I would buy it. The reason is obvious. But what is the reason for buying a number "1" for $38,000? "You shouldn't buy it" is not an answer. If you sell bitcoin on the market you should be able to explain why this product is worth the price. Except if you bought it blindly, with no rational reason, and now you are selling it blindly. Then of course you are unable to provide a rational answer.

Bitcoin is created out of thin air via simple program function. No mining is going on. After POW, the program simply pays you with a worthless number. I, as a buyer am asking why would I give you anything for it? I don't care how much electricity you spend to provide POW. That's your problem.

Regarding fiat, you keep talking about irrelevant things and ignore the only important one.

bitcoin is created out of a complex program function that costs alot of electricity to compute, people want to get paid for that complex and expensive work

regards to fiat. you keep talking about irrelevant and non existent securities and liabilities, where you think you are owed or guaranteed something. i showed you that you are not owed anything bar a service of swapping a crumbled note on deposit for a crisp note on withdrawal, where the banks can charge you for this service.
borrowers do not owe you anything, your value is not given to borrowers

no one got a FDIC cheque in the post when the banks failed in 2008
what they got was their value was devalued and now paying extra tax or getting less public services due to banks failing in 2008.
.. getting back to bitcoin because you pretend to want to know how the value is established

its not actually just 2 people wanting it and they both pick a random number and find a middle ground

its actually where those that have coin know the cost of their acquisition. and they will refuse to sell at a loss, obviously

if they fresh mined the coin in 2010. the difficulty of the math was cheap. meaning it had a $0.01 to $0.10 cost depending on electric costs around the world

ok ill make some things simple
in say 2010. imagine there were 120 people mining bitcoin at the same time.
lets say in fairness to randomness. each person had equal strength computers so all had the same equal chance
30 machines in china,
30 machines in america,
30 machines in the UK,
30 machines in germany,

because there are only ~6 blocks an hour. it takes a 20 hour period to cover each person getting their chance hit.

meaning they are using 20 hours of electric to get 50coins in 2010
in china at 4cent electric/khw using a desktop pc of 500w thats 2cent an hour and $0.40 for that 20 hour period for 50coin=0.8c/coin
in america at 12cent electric/khw using a desktop pc of 500w thats 6cent an hour and $1.20 for that 20 hour period for 50coin=2.4c/coin
in the UK at 18cent electric/khw using a desktop pc of 500w thats 9cent an hour and $1.80 for that 20 hour period for 50coin=3.6c/coin
in germany at 38cent electric/khw using a desktop pc of 500w thats 19cent an hour and $3.80 for that 20 hour period for 50coin=7.6c/coin

so around the world people could mine for between the value window of 0.8c-7.6c per coin

now lets imagine no one wants to sell their coin at a loss
germany wont make an offer for less than 8cent
the UK wont make an offer for less than 4cent
america  wont make an offer for less than 3cent
china wont make an offer for less than 1cent

lets say america tried to sell it for 10cents. .. no one is buying because everyone on the planet can mine for under 8cent. so no deal
then say america tried to sell it for 9cents. .. no one is buying because everyone on the planet can mine for under 8cent. so no deal
then say america tried to sell it for 8cents. .. someone in germany cant be bothered mining so takes the slight premium. so 8cent. deal

now what happens is people start to see it has a price.
and people in china can see they can 8x their cost. so they start using 4x machines
and people in america can see they can 3.3x their cost. so they start using 2x machines
and people in america can see they can 2.2x their cost. so they start using 1.5x machines
people in germany are breaking even so they dont bother adding more machines


now the landscape of machines is
120 machines in china,
60 machines in america,
45 machines in the UK,
30 machines in germany,
totalling 255 machines, meaning 42hours 30minutes for fairness chance for all

so costs are now
in china 1.7c/coin
in america 5.1c/coin
in the UK 7.6c/coin
in germany 16.2c/coin

china, america, the UK can still sell at 8cent and make a profit.
but now germany stop mining because the market is cheaper to buy than it is to mine.
so germany just buy coin. buying up all the coin at 8c available
because germany are willing to buy for anything below their mining cost of 16c. and germany are high demand. america pushes up its price to 9c, 10cent to see where the demand dips

lets say it plateaus at 14cent
now because the market has a value window of 1.7cent-17 cent. but the ATH is 14cent
because china can make 8x again they again 4x their machines, america 2.5x its machines and UK dont expand its machines
germany doesnt mine this week, they just buy coin, as its easier and cheaper
machines in china, become 480
machines in america, become 150
machines in the UK, stay at 45
totalling 675 machines meaning 112.5 hours mining for each to have a chance

so costs are now
in china 2.25c/coin
in america 6.75c/coin
in the UK 10.125c/coin

in germany if they were to mine it would cost them 21cent
so the value window is now 2.25c-21.37c

imagine all american coins got sold at 14cent. and demand is depleting because germans had enough
UK and china try selling coins at 14cent.and as they run out of the coins they hoarded all week. the price also depletes due to filling depleting demand, so say the price settles down to 11cent
its still between the 2-21c value window. but the price inside that window is not as much as the 14cent ATH

because china can still 3x and make a profit at 11cen. china 2x their machines. but the UK dont bother mining this week, america doesnt add more
machines in china, become 960
machines in america, stays at 150
taking 185 hours for each machine to have a chance hit

china 3.7c/coin (its not 4.5c thanks to UK dropping out and US not multiplying  )
america 11.1c/coin (thanks to UK dropping but no thanks to china for doubling up )
because the price is 11cent and america cost is 11.6cent. they buy instead of expand machines.
the price rises to 12cent

if uk mined 16.6c
if germany mined 35c

now the market has any left over german buyers still wanting more coin
UK still wants coin
so UK and germany buy coin.

if the price rises to new ATH UK starts mining again.
news hits the media about bitcoin and now new speculators that dont know the complexities of mining just want to buy coin. so the price moves up to above 20cent. UK starts mining again. and the price moves forward. as does the mining cost.  which then brings up the value window

pre-empting your repeated questions:
why are they buying it?... because it has a cost. which some regions find it cheaper to buy it rather then mine it
why are they buying it? because bitcoin does something banks dont do the same way.
why are they buying it? it offers lots of features and benefits banks cant offer.

That's completely besides the point. The point is that people (the so called miners) spend a ton of electricity only to get a number. Electricity is a valuable resource people can live off of. While a number is not. Numbers are worthless. Currently people buy these numbers blindly, because they are driven by greed, so miners are able to sell them. But what will happen when things turn around?

Regarding fiat currencies. You are ignoring the fact that fiat currency units are just an evidence in the process where borrowers borrow and return goods, services and labour(valuable things). In bitcoin system these things are not borrowed and returned but given for free(for worthless numbers). After people did that, they have faith someone will give them the equivalence of valuable things as well. Bitcoin is simply an evidence of people who live in this faith.

[witcher_sense]

Yes, people can behave irrational and stupid when driven by greed or fear. This is known phenomenon. Giving a house for a grain of sand is a stupid behavior. Giving a house for a number as well. The same is true for giving your debt ownership (fiat) for a place in a database. Here, I was asking you people why would I do that, why would I make irrational or stupid trades. And still, I got no answer. That's because no one can provide rational explanation for a behavior based on greed or fear.

It is a bad comparison on the grounds that in the example of a grain of sand you are exchanging something that is abundant and widely available for a precious good, whereas, in the case of bitcoin, you are exchanging something scarce and hard to obtain for the same precious house. It is true that only irrational people would exchange a valuable thing for something they could get for free. Apparently, you can't believe and understand that something like bitcoin, "a number," can be scarce and valuable, and you are calling other people greedy, stupid or irrational because you can't understand why they keep exchanging valuable things for something you consider worthless. Either you are defending your ego because you can't admit that other people are smarter than you or you are smarter than millions of people who mistakenly believe that digital scarce decentralized money is not nonsense and that the only justification for the existence of traditional money is that governments have managed to coerce people to use costlessly-printed money in their transactions. In either case, you have no choice but to accept the fact that bitcoin is used and seen as money by other people. No matter how smart or stupid those people that have chosen bitcoin, bitcoin will stay and will function as intended because it doesn't even care what people think about it. You either buy it or ignore and resist it while you can.

[Antithesis]

Yes, people can behave irrational and stupid when driven by greed or fear. This is known phenomenon. Giving a house for a grain of sand is a stupid behavior. Giving a house for a number as well. The same is true for giving your debt ownership (fiat) for a place in a database. Here, I was asking you people why would I do that, why would I make irrational or stupid trades. And still, I got no answer. That's because no one can provide rational explanation for a behavior based on greed or fear.

It is a bad comparison on the grounds that in the example of a grain of sand you are exchanging something that is abundant and widely available for a precious good, whereas, in the case of bitcoin, you are exchanging something scarce and hard to obtain for the same precious house. It is true that only irrational people would exchange a valuable thing for something they could get for free. Apparently, you can't believe and understand that something like bitcoin, "a number," can be scarce and valuable, and you are calling other people greedy, stupid or irrational because you can't understand why they keep exchanging valuable things for something you consider worthless. Either you are defending your ego because you can't admit that other people are smarter than you or you are smarter than millions of people who mistakenly believe that digital scarce decentralized money is not nonsense and that the only justification for the existence of traditional money is that governments have managed to coerce people to use costlessly-printed money in their transactions. In either case, you have no choice but to accept the fact that bitcoin is used and seen as money by other people. No matter how smart or stupid those people that have chosen bitcoin, bitcoin will stay and will function as intended because it doesn't even care what people think about it. You either buy it or ignore and resist it while you can.

Bitcoin is simply a name given to a number in a "digital box" that Satoshi designed. In the same way, you can design a physical box, put a limited number of grains of sand in it, give these grains a fancy name, mark them somehow to be unique and voilà, your grains are scares. No, they are not. The same is true for numbers.

Also, scarcity is referred to things people can live off of. From numbers in a database no one can.

[witcher_sense]

Bitcoin is simply a name given to a number in a "digital box" that Satoshi designed. In the same way, you can design a physical box, put a limited number of grains of sand in it, give these grains a fancy name, mark them somehow to be unique and voilà, your grains are scares. No, they are not. The same is true for numbers.

Also, scarcity is referred to things people can live off of. From numbers in a database no one can.

Of course, you can create your own cryptocurrency and give it whatever name, but it won't in any way affect bitcoin or make it less scarce or significant. Yes, bitcoin, like any other software, is merely a set of zeroes and ones that behave in a certain way and perform certain functions, but these numbers differ from any other numbers because they stay inside the bitcoin system which has value only because people consider it valuable. If people stop considering bitcoin a valuable thing, they won't be investing their time, money, and effort to interact with it. It will become worthless, like any other thing should people stop deeming it valuable. What you need to do before trying to convince people that bitcoin is not valuable is you need to learn more about bitcoin, understand how and why it works, how so-called scarcity is achieved, how it is even possible, why people may want to put their money in it, why miners spend a valuable thing that everyone can live off of to obtain numbers that don't make sense and then you should convince yourself that everything you have learned about bitcoin can't work in the real world and is against all economic laws. Only when you have spent thousands of hours learning about every aspect of bitcoin, can you start to criticize it adequately without employing questionable analogies. There is no other way, no one can convince you to buy bitcoin until you convince yourself. This is an absolutely voluntary system.

[franky1]

That's completely besides the point. The point is that people (the so called miners) spend a ton of electricity only to get a number. Electricity is a valuable resource people can live off of. While a number is not. Numbers are worthless. Currently people buy these numbers blindly, because they are driven by greed, so miners are able to sell them. But what will happen when things turn around?

Regarding fiat currencies. You are ignoring the fact that fiat currency units are just an evidence in the process where borrowers borrow and return goods, services and labour(valuable things). In bitcoin system these things are not borrowed and returned but given for free(for worthless numbers). After people did that, they have faith someone will give them the equivalence of valuable things as well. Bitcoin is simply an evidence of people who live in this faith.

lets word things in your language. maybe you will see the point then

people (so called employees) spend a ton of muscle energy only to get a serial number. energy is a valuable resource people can live off
people (so called goldsmiths) spend a ton of fuel only to get a bunch of atoms. energy is a valuable resource people can live off
now lets repeat your example
people (the so called miners) spend a ton of electricity only to get a number. Electricity is a valuable resource people can live off of

regarding bitcoin
you are ignoring the fact that bitcoin is just evidence of complex mining where acquirers use valuable things(electricity). in fiat, bank notes are not created at a cost, they are evidence of 0cost creation..
in fiat these things are not mined, but given for free. after people get that, they have to give it back at extra cost to themselves(muscle energy) so banks can profit. banks work on faith that people will pay back more for something that cost nothing

[Antithesis]

Bitcoin is simply a name given to a number in a "digital box" that Satoshi designed. In the same way, you can design a physical box, put a limited number of grains of sand in it, give these grains a fancy name, mark them somehow to be unique and voilà, your grains are scares. No, they are not. The same is true for numbers.

Also, scarcity is referred to things people can live off of. From numbers in a database no one can.

Of course, you can create your own cryptocurrency and give it whatever name, but it won't in any way affect bitcoin or make it less scarce or significant. Yes, bitcoin, like any other software, is merely a set of zeroes and ones that behave in a certain way and perform certain functions, but these numbers differ from any other numbers because they stay inside the bitcoin system which has value only because people consider it valuable. If people stop considering bitcoin a valuable thing, they won't be investing their time, money, and effort to interact with it. It will become worthless, like any other thing should people stop deeming it valuable. What you need to do before trying to convince people that bitcoin is not valuable is you need to learn more about bitcoin, understand how and why it works, how so-called scarcity is achieved, how it is even possible, why people may want to put their money in it, why miners spend a valuable thing that everyone can live off of to obtain numbers that don't make sense and then you should convince yourself that everything you have learned about bitcoin can't work in the real world and is against all economic laws. Only when you have spent thousands of hours learning about every aspect of bitcoin, can you start to criticize it adequately without employing questionable analogies. There is no other way, no one can convince you to buy bitcoin until you convince yourself. This is an absolutely voluntary system.

We can make a system where grains of sand stay only inside that system. But they are still grains of sand and thus, abundant in quality. In the same sense, bitcoin is still a number and numbers are infinite in quality. Btw, I am not criticizing bitcoin. It would be stupid to criticize a number. I am criticizing irrational human behavior.

That's completely besides the point. The point is that people (the so called miners) spend a ton of electricity only to get a number. Electricity is a valuable resource people can live off of. While a number is not. Numbers are worthless. Currently people buy these numbers blindly, because they are driven by greed, so miners are able to sell them. But what will happen when things turn around?

Regarding fiat currencies. You are ignoring the fact that fiat currency units are just an evidence in the process where borrowers borrow and return goods, services and labour(valuable things). In bitcoin system these things are not borrowed and returned but given for free(for worthless numbers). After people did that, they have faith someone will give them the equivalence of valuable things as well. Bitcoin is simply an evidence of people who live in this faith.

lets word things in your language. maybe you will see the point then

people (so called employees) spend a ton of muscle energy only to get a serial number. energy is a valuable resource people can live off
people (so called goldsmiths) spend a ton of fuel only to get a bunch of atoms. energy is a valuable resource people can live off
now lets repeat your example
people (the so called miners) spend a ton of electricity only to get a number. Electricity is a valuable resource people can live off of

regarding bitcoin
you are ignoring the fact that bitcoin is just evidence of complex mining where acquirers use valuable things(electricity). in fiat, bank notes are not created at a cost, they are evidence of 0cost creation..
in fiat these things are not mined, but given for free. after people get that, they have to give it back at extra cost to themselves(muscle energy) so banks can profit. banks work on faith that people will pay back more for something that cost nothing

Well, you can use whatever semantic tricks you want, but off of certain arrangements of atoms people can live. Off off others they cannot. A certain systems(banking) are designed to return people arrangements of atoms they can live off of. Others(crypto) are not. You cannot change reality via language.

[witcher_sense]

We can make a system where grains of sand stay only inside that system. But they are still grains of sand and thus, abundant in quality. In the same sense, bitcoin is still a number and numbers are infinite in quality. Btw, I am not criticizing bitcoin. It would be stupid to criticize a number. I am criticizing irrational human behavior.

Like I said, you simply cannot criticize adequately something you fail to grasp due to your lack of knowledge, even if that "something" is someone's behavior that you for whatever reason consider irrational. If you don't understand the difference between the numbers inside the system and outside the system, and if you don't understand how the design of the system works and how it makes numbers scarce, then go and find out. If you think bitcoin is abundant like sand, then go and dump the market with unlimited bitcoins printed out of thin air. The problem is you can't get these special numbers that are inside the system for free, you must pay for them. Unlike sand that exists in abundance outside the box, bitcoin doesn't and can only be obtained through hard work.

[Antithesis]

We can make a system where grains of sand stay only inside that system. But they are still grains of sand and thus, abundant in quality. In the same sense, bitcoin is still a number and numbers are infinite in quality. Btw, I am not criticizing bitcoin. It would be stupid to criticize a number. I am criticizing irrational human behavior.

Like I said, you simply cannot criticize adequately something you fail to grasp due to your lack of knowledge, even if that "something" is someone's behavior that you for whatever reason consider irrational. If you don't understand the difference between the numbers inside the system and outside the system, and if you don't understand how the design of the system works and how it makes numbers scarce, then go and find out. If you think bitcoin is abundant like sand, then go and dump the market with unlimited bitcoins printed out of thin air. The problem is you can't get these special numbers that are inside the system for free, you must pay for them. Unlike sand that exists in abundance outside the box, bitcoin doesn't and can only be obtained through hard work.

Hahaha, you are really funny with this endless excuses for irrational behavior. If I set a rule that you can obtain a grain of sand inside my system only through hard work, then by definition you can't get it for free. But, it is still a grain and grains are abundant in quantity. Giving a house for a grain of sand or for a number just because they are inside someone's system, is a textbook example of irrational behavior. Imagine, I put a gram of gold into a system that I designed and I convince you that instead of $50, this in now worth $50K. All because it is inside my magic system and as such scarce. Hahaha.

[BlackHatCoiner]

Yes, people can behave irrational and stupid when driven by greed or fear. This is known phenomenon.

Even if that's the case, the grain of sand gains market value if hundreds of millions of people find it utilizable. You can't deny that a group of people actually use Bitcoin, whether they're irrational or not.

So, it just became meaningful, you're wrong and case's closed.

And still, I got no answer.

That's a lie. Emphasis mine;

I already gave it to you. You're getting the ability to use a currency. Just like when you give $1 for €0.88. Bitcoin is a currency with specific characteristics. Some evaluate it because of these.

You're asking “why would I want to buy a number”, I'm telling you that this number can be used to exchange stuff; it's a medium of exchange. There are people who find it useful.

You can't make jewelry out of it. You can't live in it. It doesn't represent a fraction of a company. But, if two individuals agree that Bitcoin is money, then it instantly gains monetary value. And it does look like money! It's divisible, portable, durable, easily verifiable and transferrable.

Neither is Bitcoin intended to be observed in your screen. Also, both are capital if two individuals say so.

You're asking me why wouldn't I want the dollar, I'm telling you that it's constantly inflated from the near-zero limit of required reserve. You then ask me why would I want a currency that is used by anonymous people, I'm telling you that it's a hedge to inflation.

And yet, you keep making the same kind of witless questions.

Why should I buy a number? Why would I pay a specific price for it? Why $38,000 and not $0.0001?

Also, scarcity is referred to things people can live off of. From numbers in a database no one can.

First, this is solely your opinion, diamonds are scarce, but we don't need them to live, and second, I can live with Bitcoin.

We can make a system where grains of sand stay only inside that system. But they are still grains of sand and thus, abundant in quality. In the same sense, bitcoin is still a number and numbers are infinite in quality.

But, it ain't just a number. I can't create bitcoins by drawing numbers in a paper. You're becoming a laughing stock.


You can't comprehend that money is beyond debt. You only want to prove us all wrong, because a “number in a database” sounds too moron to be traded with fiat currency. Well, guess what: It's not. People like you, who are conservative and not creative enough, can't see what's Bitcoin. Please allow the others to think otherwise, thanks.

As for irrationality, you're the most irrational and obtuse person in this room, as far as I can tell.

[Antithesis]

Yes, people can behave irrational and stupid when driven by greed or fear. This is known phenomenon.

Even if that's the case, the grain of sand gains market value if hundreds of millions of people find it utilizable. You can't deny that a group of people actually use Bitcoin, whether they're irrational or not.

So, it just became meaningful, you're wrong and case's closed.

And still, I got no answer.

That's a lie. Emphasis mine;

I already gave it to you. You're getting the ability to use a currency. Just like when you give $1 for €0.88. Bitcoin is a currency with specific characteristics. Some evaluate it because of these.

You're asking “why would I want to buy a number”, I'm telling you that this number can be used to exchange stuff; it's a medium of exchange. There are people who find it useful.

You can't make jewelry out of it. You can't live in it. It doesn't represent a fraction of a company. But, if two individuals agree that Bitcoin is money, then it instantly gains monetary value. And it does look like money! It's divisible, portable, durable, easily verifiable and transferrable.

Neither is Bitcoin intended to be observed in your screen. Also, both are capital if two individuals say so.

You're asking me why wouldn't I want the dollar, I'm telling you that it's constantly inflated from the near-zero limit of required reserve. You then ask me why would I want a currency that is used by anonymous people, I'm telling you that it's a hedge to inflation.

And yet, you keep making the same kind of witless questions.

Why should I buy a number? Why would I pay a specific price for it? Why $38,000 and not $0.0001?

Also, scarcity is referred to things people can live off of. From numbers in a database no one can.

First, this is solely your opinion, diamonds are scarce, but we don't need them to live, and second, I can live with Bitcoin.

We can make a system where grains of sand stay only inside that system. But they are still grains of sand and thus, abundant in quality. In the same sense, bitcoin is still a number and numbers are infinite in quality.

But, it ain't just a number. I can't create bitcoins by drawing numbers in a paper. You're becoming a laughing stock.


You can't comprehend that money is beyond debt. You only want to prove us all wrong, because a “number in a database” sounds too moron to be traded with fiat currency. Well, guess what: It's not. People like you, who are conservative and not creative enough, can't see what's Bitcoin. Please allow the others to think otherwise, thanks.

As for irrationality, you're the most irrational and obtuse person in this room, as far as I can tell.

How more excuses are you ready to produce to rationalize irrational behavior? You are completely ignoring the crucial point I am making and just repeat irrelevant generic phrases. Replacing a capital based system with a faith based system is irrational behavior. In a banking system, once you trade things you can live off of, you are protected with the capital (collaterals) of the borrowers to be able to return those things. If you replace that system with bitcoin system you are left only with faith that people will voluntarily return you the said things. You behave irrationally because you believe you will get more than you invested. But this believe is also irrational because this is not the system of stocks where capital is used to create new value. Bitcoin system doesn't create new value but only redistributes what is already there. So you can make profit only like in ponzi schemes. Entering into faith based system only for that reason is irrational.