Can you answer a couple of questions to a potential bitcoin buyer?

[Fortify]

First some short explanation, and then the questions.

If I bought stocks, bonds or fiat currencies I hold securities by which those who put them on the market, have the liability to me. Stocks are put on the market by companies. Bonds by corporations and governments. Fiat currencies by banking system and borrowers. By putting their securities on the market, the said entities essentially borrowed capital from the market, which is why they have the liability to return it back. This happens when they withdraw securities from the market. So if I am a market participant holding their securities, the capital is returned to me when companies buyback stocks or liquidate the business, when corporations or governments pay me bond's face value, and when the banking system and borrowers sell me the seized collaterals or goods, services or labour to get currency units for liquidating the issued loans.

Bitcoin on the other hand, is not a security. Its issuer/issuers have no liability to withdraw bitcoins from the market, and in the process, return the capital to bitcoin holders. So if I hold bitcoin, I basically hold a product similar to gold, a picture, wheat or crude oil. Meaning, once these products are bought, no one has the liability to buy them back in the future. And the only way I can benefit from them is by utilizing their intrinsic value. But, here a crucial question arises.

Gold I can utilize for jewelry, electronics, dentistry and so on, a picture for pleasing my aesthetic senses, wheat for making all sorts of foods, crude oil for manufacturing everything from plastic to petroleum. Besides, a single unit of these products is pretty cheap. However, in the case of bitcoin the only way I can utilize it is by watching it. That's all. Once I buy bitcoin, my wallet application reads a number from the blockchain, and shows it on the screen of my mobile phone. And all I can do, is to watch that number. To watch it like a picture is watched. When I sell bitcoin to other people, the new holders can also just watch a number on the screen. So, essentially no human being on Earth is capable to do anything after purchasing bitcoin, but to watch a number. Obviously, watching a number is not as aesthetically pleasing as watching a picture of a beautiful girl or a sunset.

And now the questions: if I can purchase a picture of a sunset for a couple of bucks on Shutterstock and watch something aesthetically rich, why on Earth would I purchase a number "1" for $37,000 and watch something aesthetically poor? Why would I pay so much money for a single unit of a product that in comparation to gold, a sunset picture, wheat or crude oil has so low utilization capacity?

Why does it look like you trailed off a bit at the end and almost veered into the world of NFT's when talking about buying images? When you own a share of a company (aka a stock) the company is not liable to pay anything back to you, that is not how it works. If the company does well, it brings in a profit and uses that money to fund growth and/or pay out dividends to the owners of shares. You could put it back on the open market and somebody might buy it from you for a higher or lower amount than you bought it. If a company buys back shares, it is similar to a dividend payment, because they are reducing the pool of shares available and pushing up the price of every remaining share in theory. Bonds are different again, as they are debts of a company - you will get the capital amount back and be paid an interest rate until the company pays it off. Bitcoin, arguably like every other currency, only has value because people are willing to use it as a store of value and it has a convenient trading purpose.

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[coolcoinz]

It's been years and people still compare physical and digital goods and say that physical ones must have higher value because you can hold them and sometimes turn them into something else, just like you can turn gold into jewelry.
Wake up OP, people have been paying a lot of money in various fiat currencies for domain names, online accounts, game items, even pixels! Times when you needed a person to vouch for an item for it to be valuable are long gone and never coming back.

[Antithesis]

Given that bitcoin is not a security

This is true.

one can utilize it via its intrinsic value, like all non securities, that is, economic goods, are utilized.

This is also true.

The intrinsic value of bitcoin is watching number on a screen.

It has been explained to you multiple times now that this is false.  Either you are being intentionally obtuse and ignoring the explanations, or you suffer from poor reading comprehension.  You can say it over and over and over (and you have), but repeating it doesn't make it true, nor does ignoring the forms of value that have been explained to you.

Currently, people ask $37,000 for it.

They do not.  The smallest spendable value of bitcoin is currently valued by the market at $0.037. You certainly can by multiple spendable units of it if you want to (just like you can buy miltiple paintings, or multiple ounces of gold)

I don't care about explanations but utilization of a product that has price of $37,000. If I pay the price the only utilization I can get is watching number 1 on the screen of my mobile phone. That's the only truth. No explanation can change it.

[Luqman]

why on Earth would I purchase a number "1" for $37,000 and watch something aesthetically poor? Why would I pay so much money for a single unit of a product that in comparation to gold, a sunset picture, wheat or crude oil has so low utilization capacity?

No need to always be aesthetic if you want to buy something. But if you really want to buy it based on aesthetic value, can you turn your mind to another side of "aesthetic"? By looking at your Bitcoin value that cents by cents increasing?
I am not thinking of taking Bitcoin as seen as aesthetic, I see it as money, where I can use it for currency (if available in some merchants) and also use it for investment digitally.
It is about mindset, if you buy something by only seeing the value of it physically, don't go to Bitcoin.
But if you buy something by seeing the value inside of it and for investment,buy Bitcoin
If you are doubtful, don't buy Bitcoin
If you are sure enough, buy Bitcoin

[franky1]

so to summarise

topic creator says he has a couple questions...
.. explains that he only sees a number, only wants to look at a number, and asks us why he is doing it.

he does not want any answer about other things he can look at or think about or use bitcoin for.
he just wants to see a number and why he should think that staring at a number is worth $39k

he basically wants us to explain his narrow sighted view.

again we explain why bitcoin is not just a number, but he again has no interest in knowing what bitcoin is, he just wants to know why a number is something to look at.

in short.
he is not asking questions. not wanting answers. he just wants to be as pedantic as someone that collects bank notes that have a prefix 'A' in the serial number, not wanting to know how money works or what a bank note can be used for, he just wants to know about why 'A' serial numbers have value, and why staring at a serial number for 16 hours a day brings it value(facepalm)

lets leave him to stare endlessly. and maybe he will get bored one day, and decide he is ready to learn what things can be used for and what actually brings it value beyond his non-blinking gazes

[Iranus]

However, in the case of bitcoin the only way I can utilize it is by watching it. That's all. Once I buy bitcoin, my wallet application reads a number from the blockchain, an shows it on the screen of my mobile phone. And all I can do, is to watch that number.

So, what's the difference with fiat? last year I didn't use paper money too much, I just use my debit card everywhere I need to purchase anything, So, on my debit card, I can see just number and when I pay only the digits are changed. I don't have to face any problem buying/selling stuff with these numbers.

Why would I pay so much money for a single unit of a product that in comparation to gold, a sunset picture, wheat or crude oil has so low utilization capacity?

It is not any fact right? (comparison Bitcoin vs Gold) are made by ordinary people, it is not anything proven matter, people like to compare worthy things with Gold.
And you have to pay a lot of money to buy a single unit cause the demand is high perhaps the supply is low.

And now the questions: if I can purchase a picture of a sunset for a couple of bucks on Shutterstock and watch something aesthetically rich, why on Earth would I purchase a number "1" for $37.000 and watch something aesthetically poor?

Bitcoin is not made for watching it to get pleasure, It is made for making the transaction system easier & faster without 3rd party interaction.

[Antithesis]

why on Earth would I purchase a number "1" for $37,000 and watch something aesthetically poor? Why would I pay so much money for a single unit of a product that in comparation to gold, a sunset picture, wheat or crude oil has so low utilization capacity?

No need to always be aesthetic if you want to buy something. But if you really want to buy it based on aesthetic value, can you turn your mind to another side of "aesthetic"? By looking at your Bitcoin value that cents by cents increasing?
I am not thinking of taking Bitcoin as seen as aesthetic, I see it as money, where I can use it for currency (if available in some merchants) and also use it for investment digitally.
It is about mindset, if you buy something by only seeing the value of it physically, don't go to Bitcoin.
But if you buy something by seeing the value inside of it and for investment,buy Bitcoin
If you are doubtful, don't buy Bitcoin
If you are sure enough, buy Bitcoin

Look at the title of this topic. I am a buyer, a potential buyer. And I am asking, why should I pay so much money if the only utility I get after the purchase, is the ability to watch number "1" on the screen? Watching numbers has some minimum aesthetic value. But if I want such a value I could just press the key on my keyboard, get the number I like and enjoy it. So, why would I pay the current price of $38,398 to get the same utility? I see no rational answers here. Moreover, in comparison to number 1, the number 0.00000001 has more aesthetic value and is quantitatively richer, given it has more pixels. Yet, it costs only $0.00038. On the other hand, the number 10,000,000 is aesthetically and pixelatically similar to number 0.00000001, but it costs $383,980,000.

So this is not like numbers in the case of the securities, where a particular number only represents the amount of capital a security issuer borrowed and has the liability to return. This is not like in the case of gold, where a particular number only represents the quantity of this metal. In bitcoin system, people are literally purchasing numbers for being numbers. Like pictures are purchased for being pictures. Miners are spending ton of electricity only to get numbers. That's craziness never seen in human history.

[mindrust]

And now the questions: if I can purchase a picture of a sunset for a couple of bucks on Shutterstock and watch something aesthetically rich,

People get rich by buying arts all the time. It all depends on your expectations. Lots of people became rich by buying bitcoin before. Why do you think it would be different for you? Yes you can become rich buy buying a NFT too, if you are lucky.

why on Earth would I purchase a number "1" for $37,000 and watch something aesthetically poor? Why would I pay so much money for a single unit of a product that in comparation to gold, a sunset picture, wheat or crude oil has so low utilization capacity?

But these numbers are of limited supply. Only 21 million of them is available. If every millionaire wanted one, they couldn't get it. And they all want it. Look at Michael Saylor, Elon Musk etc...

You should panic because there isn't enough bitcoins for everybody on earth. So start buying right fucking now and maybe you can get your full piece before your funeral.

[witcher_sense]

You are now just describing things. I know what gold, a picture or crude oil is. What I am asking is this. One ounce of gold, in jewelry for e.g., or watching a sunset picture, has much higher utility value than watching number "1" on the screen of a mobile phone. Because that's all the utility you get after purchasing bitcoin - you are able to watch a number on the screen. Yet, one has to pay $37,000 to for this. And only $1,800 or a couple of bucks for the former.

So, why would I pay an enormous amount of money only to get the ability to watch number "1" on the screen?

What the heck is utility value you are talking about? How do we measure this utility value and what units of measurement are there to express this utility? It is merely an ephemeral concept that doesn't make any sense at all since different people will value different things differently and that so-called value or utility value will vary significantly from one person to another. Moreover, there is no way to measure this value, it cannot be aggregated, subtracted, added, or divided. There is no reference system exist to measure the degree of utility. Even if we could measure it, it would be pointless to do that anyway because we are talking about bitcoin, which is a pure form of money. Unlike other goods, money is only useful when exchanged for something, it has no value by itself. So, money is only demanded because of its monetary use cases, and if there are other use cases such as industrial or ethical, that only distorts its functions and results in more complicated economic calculations. People buy bitcoin not because it has some questionable utility value that cannot be measured, but because bitcoin is the only money that is both decentralized and digital, money that is far superior to gold in terms of monetary characteristics.

I have a counter-question for you. Why does a loaf of bread costs less than a diamond despite the fact that a loaf of bread has a higher utility value since it allows humans to eat and survive, whereas diamonds do nothing useful to humans?

[DooMAD]

just watch a number on the screen.

If that's the only thing you can think of doing with monetary sovereignty, that would seem to imply a lack imagination on your part.  If you can't see the value in censorship resistant money, you probably don't understand it well enough yet.  I'm of the view that you should possess a thorough understanding of something before you invest in it.  As such, I'd suggest Bitcoin may not be the right investment for you.

Weak troll is weak.

[mindrust]

I have a counter-question for you. Why does a loaf of bread costs less than a diamond despite the fact that a loaf of bread has a higher utility value since it allows humans to eat and survive, whereas diamonds do nothing useful to humans?

I gotta interfere:

Uses of a Diamond:
Diamond is considered to be the hardest non-metal present on earth and is used to cut metals and glass. Diamond-tipped tools are used to cut or drill various objects. Diamonds are also used to heat the sinks that are used to conduct the heat apart from the sensitive parts of the microelectronics.

A loaf of bread is more useful than diamond for humans probably but it is also not as rare. Diamond is rare af and it is far from being useless.

[Antithesis]

And now the questions: if I can purchase a picture of a sunset for a couple of bucks on Shutterstock and watch something aesthetically rich,

People get rich by buying arts all the time. It all depends on your expectations. Lots of people became rich by buying bitcoin before. Why do you think it would be different for you? Yes you can become rich buy buying a NFT too, if you are lucky.

why on Earth would I purchase a number "1" for $37,000 and watch something aesthetically poor? Why would I pay so much money for a single unit of a product that in comparation to gold, a sunset picture, wheat or crude oil has so low utilization capacity?

But these numbers are of limited supply. Only 21 million of them is available. If every millionaire wanted one, they couldn't get it. And they all want it. Look at Michael Saylor, Elon Musk etc...

You should panic because there isn't enough bitcoins for everybody on earth. So start buying right fucking now and maybe you can get your full piece before your funeral.

The thing that I am getting when purchasing bitcoin is a number. Numbers are not limited in supply, but infinite. Just because someone wrote a software with limited number of numbers doesn't make numbers limited like gold or diamonds are limited. Every idiot can write a software that puts numbers into a database and shows them on the screen. In whatever amount they want.

You are now just describing things. I know what gold, a picture or crude oil is. What I am asking is this. One ounce of gold, in jewelry for e.g., or watching a sunset picture, has much higher utility value than watching number "1" on the screen of a mobile phone. Because that's all the utility you get after purchasing bitcoin - you are able to watch a number on the screen. Yet, one has to pay $37,000 to for this. And only $1,800 or a couple of bucks for the former.

So, why would I pay an enormous amount of money only to get the ability to watch number "1" on the screen?

What the heck is utility value you are talking about? How do we measure this utility value and what units of measurement are there to express this utility? It is merely an ephemeral concept that doesn't make any sense at all since different people will value different things differently and that so-called value or utility value will vary significantly from one person to another. Moreover, there is no way to measure this value, it cannot be aggregated, subtracted, added, or divided. There is no reference system exist to measure the degree of utility. Even if we could measure it, it would be pointless to do that anyway because we are talking about bitcoin, which is a pure form of money. Unlike other goods, money is only useful when exchanged for something, it has no value by itself. So, money is only demanded because of its monetary use cases, and if there are other use cases such as industrial or ethical, that only distorts its functions and results in more complicated economic calculations. People buy bitcoin not because it has some questionable utility value that cannot be measured, but because bitcoin is the only money that is both decentralized and digital, money that is far superior to gold in terms of monetary characteristics.

I have a counter-question for you. Why does a loaf of bread costs less than a diamond despite the fact that a loaf of bread has a higher utility value since it allows humans to eat and survive, whereas diamonds do nothing useful to humans?

I am not interested in reasons why people buy bitcoin. Nor why they value same things differently. I am interested in something pretty simple. I see the ask price on the market, currently around $38,0000, and I am asking why should I pay that price if the only utility value I get is the ability to watch number 1 on the screen of my mobile phone. You see how simple it is? I don't care about other people. I care only about the product that costs like a brand new car. With a car I have the ability to do lot of things. With bitcoin the only ability I have is the ability to watch number on the screen. So, why should I pay the price? I am not a blind buyer and I don't buy things just because people put prices on them. I am a rational buyer and I check what I am buying. So, can you provide a rational answer?

[mindrust]

The thing that I am getting when purchasing bitcoin is a number. Numbers are not limited in supply, but infinite. Just because someone wrote a software with limited number of numbers doesn't make numbers limited like gold or diamonds are limited. Every idiot can write a software that puts numbers into a database and shows them on the screen. In whatever amount they want.

Now everybody can yes but nobody could do it until 2008. Bitcoin was the first to do this and it isn't just a database. It is a distributed database which updates itself in every 10 mins. Nocoiner boomers like you will never be convinced so I agree with the second post in this thread.

"If you don't believe it or don't get it, I don't have the time to try to convince you, sorry." -satoshi, the almighty

Have fun staying poor.

[BlackHatCoiner]

I don't care about explanations but utilization of a product that has price of $37,000.

Without explanations, discipline and willingness to learn, you may not be able to understand the utilization.  

If I pay the price the only utilization I can get is watching number 1 on the screen of my mobile phone.

Everything's a number nowadays. What's the difference with Bitcoin: This number can't be censored by anyone. Everyone is forced to accept it's true. This feature is what makes it electronic cash. If you fail to understand this fact, you justifiably complain that there's nothing legitimate behind it.

[Antithesis]

I don't care about explanations but utilization of a product that has price of $37,000.

Without explanations, discipline and willingness to learn, you may not be able to understand the utilization.  

If I pay the price the only utilization I can get is watching number 1 on the screen of my mobile phone.

Everything's a number nowadays. What's the difference with Bitcoin: This number can't be censored by anyone. Everyone is forced to accept it's true. This feature is what makes it electronic cash. If you fail to understand this fact, you justifiably complain that there's nothing legitimate behind it.

It's not about what I understand, it's about what I get. After buying bitcoin I get the ability to watch number on the screen. If I sell bitcoin to someone else, they also get the same ability. No human being can get anything after purchasing bitcoin, except this ability. So it's not like in the case of securities where people get the ability to recive the capital at the security withdrawal from the market. It's not like in the case of gold where people get the ability to use gold for jewelry, electronics  and so on. It's literally the ability to watch a number on the screen.

And of course it's not that only today everything is numbers. It was always like that. Numbers always existed. It's not Satoshi that invented them. The point is that numbers have always been just an axillary means to mathematically express the quantity of something. In the case of securities to express the quantity of capital that security issues borrowed and are liable to return. In the case of gold, the quantity of this metal. When I am buying 10,000 EUR I am not buying number "10,0000". Rather, I am buying the ability to recive a specific amoun of capital at the withdrawal of EUR units, wich is at loans liquidation/repayment. When I am buying two ounces of gold I am not buying number "2", but the ability to utilize gold for jewelry and other purposes. On the other hand, when people are buying one bitcoin they are literally buying number "1". And the only ability they have is to watch that number like pictures are watched. I am simply asking why would I buy something like that from people? Why would I gave them an enormous amount of money only to get the ability to watch a number?

[BlackHatCoiner]

After buying bitcoin I get the ability to watch number on the screen.

But, you're not supposed to look your screen. You're supposed to use it as a currency. Haven't you yet acknowledged that this is the only purpose of its existence? It doesn't have any intrinsic value. It's only meant to be traded.

You can't make jewelry out of it. You can't live in it. It doesn't represent a fraction of a company. But, if two individuals agree that Bitcoin is money, then it instantly gains monetary value. And it does look like money! It's divisible, portable, durable, easily verifiable and transferrable.

I'm trying to look things the way you do and I think you're just closed-minded.

[gantez]

After buying bitcoin I get the ability to watch number on the screen.

But, you're not supposed to look your screen. You're supposed to use it as a currency. Haven't you yet acknowledged that this is the only purpose of its existence? It doesn't have any intrinsic value. It's only meant to be traded.

You can't make jewelry out of it. You can't live in it. It doesn't represent a fraction of a company. But, if two individuals agree that Bitcoin is money, then it instantly gains monetary value. And it does look like money! It's divisible, portable, durable, easily verifiable and transferrable.

I'm trying to look things the way you do and I think you're just closed-minded.

I think also that Op has his mind closed on bitcoin but the reflection he sees through blockchain is enough of conviction for him or that even in bank transaction, there is a mirror reflection on his alert. Bitcoin is more modernized and monitized system that has gave financial power to individual people to trade and hodl P2P. No point of convincing to Op.

[Antithesis]

After buying bitcoin I get the ability to watch number on the screen.

But, you're not supposed to look your screen. You're supposed to use it as a currency. Haven't you yet acknowledged that this is the only purpose of its existence? It doesn't have any intrinsic value. It's only meant to be traded.

You can't make jewelry out of it. You can't live in it. It doesn't represent a fraction of a company. But, if two individuals agree that Bitcoin is money, then it instantly gains monetary value. And it does look like money! It's divisible, portable, durable, easily verifiable and transferrable.

I'm trying to look things the way you do and I think you're just closed-minded.

Well, if two individuals exchanged a car and a grain of sand, they agreed that a grain of sand is money, and it instantly gained monetary value.  Everything can be money, even numbers, that is crypto. But that's not the point. The point is, why would I gave my car for a grain of sand? Why would I gave my car for number 1? Why would I gave 150,000 kWh of energy for the same number? A car and 150,000 kWh of energy, in comparison to a grain of sand or digital number 1, have an enormously higher utilization capacity. I am simply asking why would a rational buyer ever agree to such an irrational exchange of utilization capacities?

[BlackHatCoiner]

The point is, why would I gave my car for a grain of sand?

Why will you give your car for a million dollars in cash? Because people accept it as a currency. Because, you'll afterwards go to another person who's willing to trade their goods for your dollars. Simple economics where societies develop mediums of exchange.

Same happens with Bitcoin. It meets the conditions to be considered currency. It was designed by humans only for that purpose. What's so hard to understand about that?

[Antithesis]

The point is, why would I gave my car for a grain of sand?

Why will you give your car for a million dollars in cash? Because people accept it as a currency. Because, you'll afterwards go to another person who's willing to trade their goods for your dollars. Simple economics where societies develop mediums of exchange.

Same happens with Bitcoin. It meets the conditions to be considered currency. It was designed by humans only for that purpose. What's so hard to understand about that?

Because with a million dollars, either cash or digital, I get the ability to recive capital at the dollar withdrawal from the market, which is at loans repayments/liquidations. Dollar is a security. Securities are shares in capital that the security issues borrowed and have the liability to return. Bitcoin on the other hand is not a security. It is literally a number. You can consider whatever you want, but bitcoin will still be only a number. Hence the question.