Bitcoin is doomed. Thanks IRS!!! You Ass hats!

[cryptoanarchist]

The Good = At least it is legal and (in the eyes of much of the public) no longer a shady underground business for drugs and gambling

The Bad = Bitcoin has some value when treated as a stock.  It is a way to diversify a portfolio.  And I think in theory it can still be used for certain services like large transfers of money overseas cheaply, but that is not where the biggest promise of Bitcoin laid.  Bitcoins biggest inherent value was as a universal currency that could be used anywhere for transactions.  The IRS has made that much more difficult in the US now.  More of a pain to accept as a payment system.  Just use cash.

The Result = Bitcoin has been legitimized, but only in some ways and not the ways that we should have preferred.  

The Winners = People with vast holds of bitcoins that bought a long time ago and squatted.  They can now sell off, pay their taxes and be rich for the rest of their life.

The Losers = Anybody who wanted to use it as a fast, efficient, and quick way to buy things.  

Is this about right?

It's especially punishing for small-time miners working with a pool and buying ASIC equipment with BTC. Daily small payouts, frequent purchases of equipment with BTC, expenses, equipment sales in USD, declining BTC value showing more losses on exchange/transactions, reporting loss and risking audit or being categorized as a hobby if losses are more than 3 of 5 years. Lots of record keeping required for this.

Yes, it looks like it is a bad hit for small miners existing entirely in the bitcoin ecosystem.  To that extent, I think it is bad for anybody trying to exist entirely in a bitcoin ecosystem.  Had it been taxed like a currency, then the proposition of existing in an ecosystem would have been much easier I think.  (though I am not an economics graduate so I can't say for sure)

I still think it was a huge win for old school miners from 2011 that were sitting on a ton of bitcoin for relatively little investment at the time.  (true it was a very risky gamble at that time though) 

It doesn't make any difference at all for small miners.

[1713907884]

1713907884

[DeathAndTaxes]

Having bitcoin classified as property rather than currency is the best possible scenario.  The capital gains tax rate is 0% for most people.  0%... hard to beat that.

0% for most people?
What is needed to go above 0%?
Sorry I have no idea.

Enough income (or hold less than 365 days)

If you hold the asset less than 365 days it is a short term gain and taxed at your marginal tax rate (10% to 39.6%).

If you hold the asset for 365+ days and your marginal tax rate is in the 10% or 15% bracket then your long capital gains rate is 0%
If you hold the asset for 365+ days and your marginal tax rate is in a higher bracket then your long capital gains rate is 15%

The cutoff is for the 15% bracket is an adjusted gross income of $36,250 if single or married filing separately and $72,500 if married filing jointly.

[Peter R]

I am quite surprised at the sense of worry I detect on this forum regarding the IRS guidance.  The IRS simply expressed their opinion on how the existing laws apply to bitcoin.  For the most part, I agreed that the guidance was accurate.  You are still free to continue making the same decisions you were making before this guidance was issued, as the same laws still apply.    

Capital gains in the US are subject to tax, so this obviously applies whether you realize a capital gain in bitcoin or in Berkshire stock.  To eliminate capital gains or income tax would have required an act of Congress.      

I am also surprised people think that this is some sort of attack on bitcoin.  In my opinion, the IRS just did their job.  They know it will be difficult to enforce collection of capital gains taxes on small purchases and trades, and they probably don't really care.  But when the Winkevoss ETF comes out, the capital gains investors may realize using these registered products will be a nice revenue stream.  And if you personally do really well in bitcoin and buy a nice house and car in the US, then I hope you've voluntarily claimed a reasonable amount of income or capital gains on your taxes.  

The bogeymen are in your mind.  Bitcoin is growing as it should.  

[duhosnyul]

I don't care shit about IRS Im not an American. USA is not the whole world.

[Honeypot]

What IRS does affect a big capital market for crypto. It DOES matter. By your logic, you should give no shit about china either.


About this IRS tax topic - it's been announced and hinted at since last year. Why all the panic now? Some people want to increase their BTC holdings?

[becker]

I don't think it is good news.

If you are a miner, EVERY single time you are credited for any crypto coin, has to be tracked at present value to USD. So, I get like 50 transactions a day, every single day. Hrmmm, yeah, that's fun.

Also, all your mining, is counted as income, with taxes due on the value it was mined at. You don't get to say I mined it on Feb 2, and now it is worth half so I'll report that lower amount as income, that would be a capital gains loss, not an ordinary income loss. So, if you are mining and holding, even if you do not sell 1 coin this year, you owe taxes on it, and you owe FICA tax on it as well.

Big Mining operations, almost have to sell as they mine, as in if you mine a bitcoin or whatever coin and it was worth 500 dollars at the time of mining, you owe taxes on 500 bucks, doesn't matter if that bitcoin is worth 0.00 at the end of the year, you still owe that. So, let's say your 500 dollar bitcoin drops to 250. Tough you owe on 500 in ordinary income taxes. . Anyway, if coin prices keep falling there is a very real chance miners that mine and hold could owe more in taxes than the value of the coin at the end of the year.



Bitcoin or litecoin or whatever coin, the same thing applies.

[Erdogan]

The Good = At least it is legal and (in the eyes of much of the public) no longer a shady underground business for drugs and gambling

The Bad = Bitcoin has some value when treated as a stock.  It is a way to diversify a portfolio.  And I think in theory it can still be used for certain services like large transfers of money overseas cheaply, but that is not where the biggest promise of Bitcoin laid.  Bitcoins biggest inherent value was as a universal currency that could be used anywhere for transactions.  The IRS has made that much more difficult in the US now.  More of a pain to accept as a payment system.  Just use cash.

The Result = Bitcoin has been legitimized, but only in some ways and not the ways that we should have preferred. 

The Winners = People with vast holds of bitcoins that bought a long time ago and squatted.  They can now sell off, pay their taxes and be rich for the rest of their life.

The Losers = Anybody who wanted to use it as a fast, efficient, and quick way to buy things. 

Is this about right?

Yes, except for "They can now sell off" - bad language, should be "They can now buy into dollar". Thet will winn even more if they do not dollar out now, they can just start spending and keep the rest in bitcoin.

[barabbas]

I don't think it is good news.

If you are a miner, EVERY single time you are credited for any crypto coin, has to be tracked at present value to USD. So, I get like 50 transactions a day, every single day. Hrmmm, yeah, that's fun.

Also, all your mining, is counted as income, with taxes due on the value it was mined at. You don't get to say I mined it on Feb 2, and now it is worth half so I'll report that lower amount as income, that would be a capital gains loss, not an ordinary income loss. So, if you are mining and holding, even if you do not sell 1 coin this year, you owe taxes on it, and you owe FICA tax on it as well.

Big Mining operations, almost have to sell as they mine, as in if you mine a bitcoin or whatever coin and it was worth 500 dollars at the time of mining, you owe taxes on 500 bucks, doesn't matter if that bitcoin is worth 0.00 at the end of the year, you still owe that. So, let's say your 500 dollar bitcoin drops to 250. Tough you owe on 500 in ordinary income taxes. . Anyway, if coin prices keep falling there is a very real chance miners that mine and hold could owe more in taxes than the value of the coin at the end of the year.



Bitcoin or litecoin or whatever coin, the same thing applies.

On the other hand, ALL of your expenses (and then some) are deductible. Plus you can use your common sense or experienced knowledge to sell some (or all) of your mined bitcoins when the price rebounds and buy back when the price drops, thus becoming not just a miner but an investor and speculator with a range of options largely depending on how you are doing, for instance, if after the first three months you have been able to sell at higher prices than current, you may choose not to sell what you are currently mining and wait for a rebound in price. You can also buy at this lower price with the proceeds of previous sales. You DO have a lot of options and a lot of deductions as well as many opportunities through the year not only to obtain profits but to minimize possible temporary losses.

But complaining is, obviously, neither taxable nor deductible, so complain at will.

[becker]

I don't think it is good news.

If you are a miner, EVERY single time you are credited for any crypto coin, has to be tracked at present value to USD. So, I get like 50 transactions a day, every single day. Hrmmm, yeah, that's fun.

Also, all your mining, is counted as income, with taxes due on the value it was mined at. You don't get to say I mined it on Feb 2, and now it is worth half so I'll report that lower amount as income, that would be a capital gains loss, not an ordinary income loss. So, if you are mining and holding, even if you do not sell 1 coin this year, you owe taxes on it, and you owe FICA tax on it as well.

Big Mining operations, almost have to sell as they mine, as in if you mine a bitcoin or whatever coin and it was worth 500 dollars at the time of mining, you owe taxes on 500 bucks, doesn't matter if that bitcoin is worth 0.00 at the end of the year, you still owe that. So, let's say your 500 dollar bitcoin drops to 250. Tough you owe on 500 in ordinary income taxes. . Anyway, if coin prices keep falling there is a very real chance miners that mine and hold could owe more in taxes than the value of the coin at the end of the year.



Bitcoin or litecoin or whatever coin, the same thing applies.

On the other hand, ALL of your expenses (and then some) are deductible. Plus you can use your common sense or experienced knowledge to sell some (or all) of your mined bitcoins when the price rebounds and buy back when the price drops, thus becoming not just a miner but an investor and speculator with a range of options largely depending on how you are doing, for instance, if after the first three months you have been able to sell at higher prices than current, you may choose not to sell what you are currently mining and wait for a rebound in price. You can also buy at this lower price with the proceeds of previous sales. You DO have a lot of options and a lot of deductions as well as many opportunities through the year not only to obtain profits but to minimize possible temporary losses.

But complaining is, obviously, neither taxable nor deductible, so complain at will.

There wasn't complaining in my post. You are just hyper sensitive.

[jubalix]

OP you got it wrong.

Tax cant be avoided. So one way or the other, you're gonna have to pay tax on profits/income

In fact this new ruling is great for bitcoin because it would filter out day traders as day trading will no longer be desirable as before. Most investors will want to have a long term capital gain. So whoever is buying btc today, its more incentive for them to hold over a year. Tax on short term capital gain is up to 43% opposed to 23% for long term capital gain.


Overall the market will be calm and stable.

tax can be minimized to near zero ask apple

[raganius]

http://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2014/03/why-bitcoin-can-no-longer-work-as-a-virtual-currency-in-1-paragraph/359648/

I hate to admit it, but this story makes a lot of sense.

We can't legally trade BTC for BTC, we taxes at every level because its property not currency.....

Can someone please provide another, hopefully more positive, way to look at this?

nonsense article. point blank:

Reason #1 - gold, coffee, silver, wheat, palladium, corn, etc are all examples of property, and still they all are fungible

Reason #2 - no government rule will prevent bitcoin to be bitcoin

[timmmers]

I don't care shit about IRS Im not an American. USA is not the whole world.

True, but it's got a hell of a habit of fucking the rest of us up.

[timmmers]

The Good = At least it is legal and (in the eyes of much of the public) no longer a shady underground business for drugs and gambling

The Bad = Bitcoin has some value when treated as a stock.  It is a way to diversify a portfolio.  And I think in theory it can still be used for certain services like large transfers of money overseas cheaply, but that is not where the biggest promise of Bitcoin laid.  Bitcoins biggest inherent value was as a universal currency that could be used anywhere for transactions.  The IRS has made that much more difficult in the US now.  More of a pain to accept as a payment system.  Just use cash.

The Result = Bitcoin has been legitimized, but only in some ways and not the ways that we should have preferred.  

The Winners = People with vast holds of bitcoins that bought a long time ago and squatted.  They can now sell off, pay their taxes and be rich for the rest of their life.

The Losers = Anybody who wanted to use it as a fast, efficient, and quick way to buy things.  

Is this about right?

It's especially punishing for small-time miners working with a pool and buying ASIC equipment with BTC. Daily small payouts, frequent purchases of equipment with BTC, expenses, equipment sales in USD, declining BTC value showing more losses on exchange/transactions, reporting loss and risking audit or being categorized as a hobby if losses are more than 3 of 5 years. Lots of record keeping required for this.

Yes, it looks like it is a bad hit for small miners existing entirely in the bitcoin ecosystem.  To that extent, I think it is bad for anybody trying to exist entirely in a bitcoin ecosystem.  Had it been taxed like a currency, then the proposition of existing in an ecosystem would have been much easier I think.  (though I am not an economics graduate so I can't say for sure)

I still think it was a huge win for old school miners from 2011 that were sitting on a ton of bitcoin for relatively little investment at the time.  (true it was a very risky gamble at that time though) 

It doesn't make any difference at all for small miners.

When the value of what you mine halves, it makes a difference. Obviously.

[J_Dubbs]

The Good = At least it is legal and (in the eyes of much of the public) no longer a shady underground business for drugs and gambling

The Bad = Bitcoin has some value when treated as a stock.  It is a way to diversify a portfolio.  And I think in theory it can still be used for certain services like large transfers of money overseas cheaply, but that is not where the biggest promise of Bitcoin laid.  Bitcoins biggest inherent value was as a universal currency that could be used anywhere for transactions.  The IRS has made that much more difficult in the US now.  More of a pain to accept as a payment system.  Just use cash.

The Result = Bitcoin has been legitimized, but only in some ways and not the ways that we should have preferred.  

The Winners = People with vast holds of bitcoins that bought a long time ago and squatted.  They can now sell off, pay their taxes and be rich for the rest of their life.

The Losers = Anybody who wanted to use it as a fast, efficient, and quick way to buy things.  

Is this about right?

It's especially punishing for small-time miners working with a pool and buying ASIC equipment with BTC. Daily small payouts, frequent purchases of equipment with BTC, expenses, equipment sales in USD, declining BTC value showing more losses on exchange/transactions, reporting loss and risking audit or being categorized as a hobby if losses are more than 3 of 5 years. Lots of record keeping required for this.

Yes, it looks like it is a bad hit for small miners existing entirely in the bitcoin ecosystem.  To that extent, I think it is bad for anybody trying to exist entirely in a bitcoin ecosystem.  Had it been taxed like a currency, then the proposition of existing in an ecosystem would have been much easier I think.  (though I am not an economics graduate so I can't say for sure)

I still think it was a huge win for old school miners from 2011 that were sitting on a ton of bitcoin for relatively little investment at the time.  (true it was a very risky gamble at that time though) 

It doesn't make any difference at all for small miners.

When the value of what you mine halves, it makes a difference. Obviously.

^TRUTH.

Especially when you are filing "business" activity and show a loss, after too many times of doing that the IRS will force you to prove your business is not a "hobby". If they determine it to be a hobby then you need to pay taxes on all the income but can only claim expenses if you itemize and exceed a certain amount of gross income. If you have a day job that pays pretty well it basically means you eat it when filing hobby income.

[timmmers]

This says it all for miners, not a single rig breaks even on the list at current rates. https://tradeblock.com/mining/ Bear in mind that some big rigs aren't on that list as they don't yet exist and are pre-order and that is the only way to get a competitive rig...so many people are locked in now and difficulty will rise even if not as fast as their estimates.

Resale of rigs won't be great, who will want one ?

The current situation is pretty much a dark hole for miners, losing out on just about everything, coins mined slashed in value, rigs worth less, future hardly worth the juice. In the U.S. ..some tax paperwork to sort out to possibly recover losses, elsewhere just losses. Even if we don't sail down past 400 like we did past the 500 everyone was bleating we'd bounce back from.

If you pre-ordered with bitcoin the chances are you won't see a refund, Paypal you have a shot...that's ironic.

Who's left that can afford to mine? The big boys. Producing rigs at cost, or buying them ..and with access to dirt cheap power.
That was never the idea was it, to create a few large entities controlling most of the coin production?

[thresher]

Just showed a few people my miners, the usual bitcoin is the thing that drug dealers use, they think it is crazy, but then I mentioned how the irs is taxing it, and that is when they took interest and realized it is legitimate.  Especially with the tax laws, you can basically blow up to 3 grand on bad purchasing, alot more if you have investments and other shit I guess (i'm not an accountant so that could be complete bullshit)
Then they asked if i'm making money, I said once upon a time, lmao how embarrassing ....    
 

[J_Dubbs]

This says it all for miners, not a single rig breaks even on the list at current rates. https://tradeblock.com/mining/ Bear in mind that some big rigs aren't on that list as they don't yet exist and are pre-order and that is the only way to get a competitive rig...so many people are locked in now and difficulty will rise even if not as fast as their estimates.

Resale of rigs won't be great, who will want one ?

The current situation is pretty much a dark hole for miners, losing out on just about everything, coins mined slashed in value, rigs worth less, future hardly worth the juice. In the U.S. ..some tax paperwork to sort out to possibly recover losses, elsewhere just losses. Even if we don't sail down past 400 like we did past the 500 everyone was bleating we'd bounce back from.

If you pre-ordered with bitcoin the chances are you won't see a refund, Paypal you have a shot...that's ironic.

Who's left that can afford to mine? The big boys. Producing rigs at cost, or buying them ..and with access to dirt cheap power.
That was never the idea was it, to create a few large entities controlling most of the coin production?

I've got cubes listed on Ebay, thinking of yanking my auction. I know I can turn around and buy an Antminer, sell low buy low, but it seems crazy that cubes are selling so cheap. I mean it makes sense, it's where the market it at, but I'll be damned I was turning down offers on cubes last week for $200- should have just sold them all at that price. I'm just looking to have fast turnaround and get another Antminer hooked up, but don't want to run these cubes in the summer and don't have any power outlets left in my apartment.

[jabo38]

I don't care shit about IRS Im not an American. USA is not the whole world.

No..... but it is more than half of the bitcoin market.  yes.... seriously, it is. So, when something happens in America, attention needs to be paid.

[mktrader]

I don't think Bitcoin can be doomed  due to being tax classified as 'property'. I think this is a positive development as a huge tax lacuna has been removed and Bitcoin has received a perfectly LEGAL status.

In medium to long term this classification should be quite beneficial to the Bitcoin price as considerable number of property investors will likely turn to Bitcoin in order to diversify their portfolios (same tax rate as property - finite supply - far better capital gains ).

On the other hand, when Bitcoin is used to buy everyday merchandise (e.g. grocery) by public, there should not be a problem with capital gains calculations on each small or large transaction because simple and free Bitcoin accounting Apps can take care of it automatically and seamlessly - without the user needing to record transactions. This is as good as it gets.

[bbit]

Just chill out gosh! lol