Hardware Wallets for Long Term

[worldtraveller321]

i been researching hardware wallets
and got it down to a few choices
not sure what one to try
my choices are
Ledge S, Ledger X, Trezer, BC Vault and Keystone
i am leaning towards Ledger S so far, feedback and suggestions please
my coins i usually keep under 20
but i like to be able to stake coins from my wallet etc
i just don' t want to get a hardware device that will become obsolete by tomorrow

Seems many choices and the good ones are expensive to get though

[OmegaStarScream]

Ledger S is a great choice, but since you're planning to store many cryptocurrencies, I suggest you wait for a little. They're releasing the Ledger S Plus[1] next month which should allow you to install up to 100 apps (the current model doesn't allow as much[2]).

[1] https://shop.ledger.com/pages/ledger-nano-s-plus
[2] https://www.ledger.com/improving-and-supporting-the-ledger-nano-s

[Lucius]

Ledge S, Ledger X, Trezer, BC Vault and Keystone

First of all, try to learn the correct names of what you want to buy, otherwise you could buy a fake device. The safe sounds to me like some kind of stun gun, but it's not a device that's bad to have with the Trezor

Strangely, a device that looks like a Trezor called a Trezer does exist (or did exist).

i am leaning towards Ledger S so far, feedback and suggestions please
i just don' t want to get a hardware device that will become obsolete by tomorrow

You can't know when a company will stop supporting some of its devices, but Nano S is a device that appeared in 2016, which means that it is a bad choice if you want something that will have support in the long run.

Seems many choices and the good ones are expensive to get though

If you have cryptocurrencies worth a few hundred dollars with the potential that they may be worth even more in the future, you should never consider investing in security too expensive. A hardware wallet is not something you buy every day, so save some money and buy something good and quality.

[m2017]

i been researching hardware wallets
and got it down to a few choices
not sure what one to try
my choices are
Ledge S, Ledger X, Trezer, BC Vault and Keystone
i am leaning towards Ledger S so far, feedback and suggestions please
my coins i usually keep under 20
but i like to be able to stake coins from my wallet etc
i just don' t want to get a hardware device that will become obsolete by tomorrow

Seems many choices and the good ones are expensive to get though

I would like to believe that your choices is conscious and you are familiar with all the nuances about this devices that were discussed in "Hardware wallets" of bitcointalk.

I'm talking about this topics:
Ledger Nano S Plus
Why I wouldn't buy Ledger Nano S ever again?
Ledger Nano X Battery Pandemic

If you haven't read the discussions in these threads, I strongly recommend that you do so before making your purchase. Perhaps this will change your mind and you will start to consider other manufacturers to buy hardware wallets.

Also, if you are concerned about the privacy of your personal data, then take a look at the discussion here :
Can HW manufacturers get user info through their apps? Because many use the app from the manufacturer along with their devices. As you will see in the discussion, this is not a very good idea.

I hope you have already read this list - Open Source Hardware Wallets. Perhaps this will prompt you to make a different choice, because according to the name of your topic, you plan to use hardware wallet for a long time and therefore, it is important that the device be operational for many years.

[worldtraveller321]

thanks so much

i was just looking at this wallet

i didnt realize i was spelling trezor wrong
the proper one is trezor
i was looking at Trezer wallet , which i found now was thew rong one
this one call the Trezor Model One looks decent

https://shop.trezor.io/product/trezor-one-black

[dkbit98]

my choices are
Ledge S, Ledger X, Trezer, BC Vault and Keystone
i am leaning towards Ledger S so far, feedback and suggestions please

Ledger nono X is worst crap you can buy in your life with countless issues with battery, firmware, etc and you would be better throwing your money out of window.
Older brother nono S is retiring soon and they officially confirmed they are stopping production this year, so you would be crazy to buy something like that.
On top of that, both of this ledger wallets are closed source, they hade multiple leaks of private customer information, and I don't recommend anyone purchasing them.
If you are interesting to learn more about them in details you can check out my topics posted above, and for hardware wallets my main picks are Keystone or Passport, but Bitbox is also decent.

[SFR10]

this one call the Trezor Model One looks decent

• my coins i usually keep under 20
  

  It's a good device, but make sure to check if all of the coins that you're currently using are supported: Supported coins & tokens
  
  

• but i like to be able to stake coins from my wallet etc
  

  It's worth noting that you can't "directly" stake with a Trezor Model One ^{[there are some workarounds to "indirectly" stake, but your options are quite limited with this device]}!

[Pmalek]

i am leaning towards Ledger S so far, feedback and suggestions please
i just don' t want to get a hardware device that will become obsolete by tomorrow

In that case, Ledger S is not the one you should be looking at. New devices won't be produced any longer and perhaps they will drop support for the older Nano S in a few years from now. But it's a good little HW and I have been using one for several years without any issues. The Nano X from a few years ago is a completely different unit from what is being produced in the last 1-2 years. The new ones are just awful and you better stay away from them. The Nano S+ is brand new. I would personally not buy anything that hasn't been out at last half a year and thoroughly tested for bugs and vulnerabilities.   

[worldtraveller321]

thanks so much fpr the help i wont be looking at LEdger at all then,


Would the Trezor brand be a good option for hardware wallet ? company and devices have good reputation etc?

[moderator's note: consecutive posts merged]

[Lucius]

Would the Trezor brand be a good option for hardware wallet ? company and devices have good reputation etc?

Trezor is probably the best alternative that exists in relation to Ledger, and so far (at least as far as I know) they have not had any scandals in terms of data leakage of their users. However, we cannot say that they do not have their own flaw, which is that there is a security vulnerability that can be exploited and get the seed out of the device in case someone has physical access to the device.

There is a way to protect users from this risk by adding one extra word (passphrase) that should be strong enough to withstand any brute force attack. Also for the Trezor model T there is an option of additional protection through the use of an SD card.

Don't be discouraged by things like this, nothing is 100% perfect, and if you are aware of all the pros and cons of an HW, it will reduce the risks to a minimum.

Read more :

https://donjon.ledger.com/Unfixable-Key-Extraction-Attack-on-Trezor/
https://blog.trezor.io/our-response-to-the-read-protection-downgrade-attack-28d23f8949c6
https://wiki.trezor.io/User_manual:SD_card_protection

[vapourminer]

Trezor is probably the best alternative that exists in relation to Ledger, and so far (at least as far as I know) they have not had any scandals in terms of data leakage of their users.

there has been a (possible?) leak of email addys:

https://twitter.com/Trezor/status/1510548489884815361

i do have trezor one and trezor t hardware wallets i do like them. trezor t especially with its sd card protection.

edit: thread about it

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5392850.msg59751972;topicseen#new

[Lucius]

there has been a (possible?) leak of email addys:

One would think that they learned something from the Ledger fiasco, but that does not seem to be the case. Fortunately, for now, it has been confirmed that only e-mail addresses are hacked, although it is necessary to wait for the Trezor to complete the investigation.

[Welsh]

What's your reasoning for going with a hardware wallet? I mean the choice is fine, however if you don't want to be forking out so much money, you could just use a offline wallet like Electrum etc. Since, you're going to be holding for the long term, I expect you won't be needing regular access, which basically mitigates most of the threats from using anything, but a hardware wallet.

If you are planning on accessing it, either for making payments or trading then a hardware wallet makes the most sense to most people, since it does mitigate some of the attacks. Although, if you're putting your Bitcoin (or whatever coins you might be storing) away, and forgetting it for a few years, then I'd say setup a proper offline wallet, and just make sure to verify that you've generated the private key correctly, and backed it up correctly before transferring any Bitcoin. Then, just secure that back up, and you should be good to go.

I know you said you wanted to stake coins, would it be better to have a fully offline wallet for storing coins for the long term, and then staking coins with a hot wallet? Both could be Electrum, since if you aren't storing much in your hot wallet, more than your comfortable potentially losing, then that might be the cheaper alternative for you.

[NeuroticFish]

Ledger S is a great choice, but since you're planning to store many cryptocurrencies, I suggest you wait for a little. They're releasing the Ledger S Plus[1] next month which should allow you to install up to 100 apps (the current model doesn't allow as much[2]).

It's more than that, especially as OP would not really use too much memory: after Nano S+ is released, I'd expect Nano S (slowly) get to end-of-life status.

What's your reasoning for going with a hardware wallet?

This is quite a correct point!


OP, since your plan to HOLD, not spend, for long term, you cannot really rely on a hardware wallet; it can break, it will need updates, they may no longer work...
Of course, even if the HW won't work, you'll have the backup seed... but then why don't you just generate safely the seed, write it down, write down a couple of addresses.. and you're good (of course, backup the seed in multiple places).

But... if you are not inclined towards computers, if creating a bootable USB stick is something you don't really understand how to do.. then just get a hardware wallet. It's a safer option for you, even if you won't use it much.

[worldtraveller321]

would you recommend offline wallet as a safer bet over a hardware wallet?

[witcher_sense]

would you recommend offline wallet as a safer bet over a hardware wallet?

Since the private keys sitting inside a hardware wallet never touch the Internet, the given type of wallet can also be considered offline. A hardware wallet is a very handy tool with which you can create as many offline wallets as you want. You generate a new seed phrase with your device, make a backup on a piece of paper afterward, generate and fund multiple addresses, and wipe the device. Make several copies of your initial backup and distribute them across several locations. You have just created your offline wallet, and also you made it in a very secure and convenient way. Moreover, when you have created several offline wallets, you can still continue to use your hardware wallet in combination with less secure online wallets

[Lucius]

You generate a new seed phrase with your device, make a backup on a piece of paper afterward, generate and fund multiple addresses, and wipe the device.

It's one way, but it's even easier to have just one seed that can be extended using a passphrase, so it's possible to have multiple individual crypto wallets that share the same seed, but each passphrase creates completely different coin addresses. Theoretically, more people can use one HW without compromising the security of other users, assuming the passphrase is complex enough that it cannot be easily guessed or brute-forced.

I wouldn't agree that HW is a full offline wallet, you still connect that device to the internet, whether it's transactions, download/upgrade coins app, or firmware upgrade. If someone wants something completely offline, then a properly made cold wallet (airgapped wallet) is the only right solution.

https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Cold_storage

[witcher_sense]

It's one way, but it's even easier to have just one seed that can be extended using a passphrase, so it's possible to have multiple individual crypto wallets that share the same seed, but each passphrase creates completely different coin addresses. Theoretically, more people can use one HW without compromising the security of other users, assuming the passphrase is complex enough that it cannot be easily guessed or brute-forced.

Yeah, I was just trying to make the setup sound less complicated to perceive because I know that not everyone understands how passphrases work, that there is no such thing as the wrong passphrase, or that it is a common mistake among beginners to confuse a BIP39 passphrase with ordinary passwords. When a typical newbie tries to restore his wallet by inserting a seed phrase with a wrong checksum, the software is likely to warn him it is wrong, whereas a wrong passphrase merely results in a different set of empty addresses with no warning.

I wouldn't agree that HW is a full offline wallet, you still connect that device to the internet, whether it's transactions, download/upgrade coins app, or firmware upgrade.

I think it depends on the wallet you use. In some cases you can do all these things without having to be connected to the Internet.

If someone wants something completely offline, then a properly made cold wallet (airgapped wallet) is the only right solution.

https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Cold_storage

Just curious, have you ever tried to create cold storage, and how difficult or how easy it was? Is it suitable for a non tech savvy person?

[Lucius]

Yeah, I was just trying to make the setup sound less complicated to perceive because I know that not everyone understands how passphrases work, that there is no such thing as the wrong passphrase, or that it is a common mistake among beginners to confuse a BIP39 passphrase with ordinary passwords.

This makes sense, but it can also be complicated to reset the hardware wallet every time you want a new seed or when you want to recover a wallet with some already generated seed. It took me about 5 minutes (no rush) to enter 24 words in Nano X, but it should be emphasized that it is not necessary to enter each word in full, but after the first two or three letters the device shows suggestions, so the procedure is relatively fast.

I think it depends on the wallet you use. In some cases you can do all these things without having to be connected to the Internet.

I remember that there are HWs that are much closer to cold wallets than the ones that are used the most, so that may be true, at least to some extent.

Just curious, have you ever tried to create cold storage, and how difficult or how easy it was? Is it suitable for a non tech savvy person?

At one point I had two computers and then I played around with it a bit, and I can’t say it’s not anything complicated - although it is a very relative term. In fact, you need a device that will be completely offline and on which you will install a certain crypto wallet (say Electrum), and then you will install the same type of wallet on an online computer. Make a watch-only wallet using the master public key from the offline wallet - and then use the offline wallet to sign each transaction and use a removable media or QR code with the camera to broadcast a transaction on the online wallet device.

It may sound a little complicated, but if you do it several times you get used to it quickly - although such a practice requires a little more time than using a desktop or hardware wallet.