The Bitcoin Paradox - a Simple Online Scam Honored as Deity

[Snowshow]

Now, answer me: how can you benefit from a number that you have next to your address without new investors voluntarily entering the Satoshi's system?

Why do you always associate bitcoin benefits in nominal terms? And why do you always think bitcoin owners/recipients are investors?

If I'm a shoe store owner who doesn't like bitcoin but sees that most of my customers are bitcoiners, I can adopt it into my store. Does that mean I aim to make nominal benefit with that number? No, I just use the number to attract customers to be more consumptive. No new investors in my store story.

I don't think anything. I am just describing the scam. People are tricked into the bitcoin scam by claims they are inventing in an asset. But no asset exists in the system. An asset is a resource that provides benefit to those that own it. This resource can be a company which benefits people by producing goods and services. It can be a commodity which benefits people via consumption or as an intermediate good used to produce a final good or finished product. It can be fiat money (debt) which benefits people at debt settlement as explained in the OP. By holding numbers in the Satoshi's system people own no such resource. They own no asset. They cannot benefit from within the system. Which is why they need the contribution of funds from new investors to benefit. That's a textbook definition of a scam. When something like that is presented to the public as an asset that's called scamming people.

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[Kakmakr]

The Fiat scam are the biggest scam of all time ....and they even tricked people into believing that debt can be a asset. Debt cannot be an asset if it cannot be repaid ...and if it is paid with toilet paper money that are printed out of thin air... then it is even worst.

Try to explain to people that most investment options are "digital" ...and worthless when IT systems fail... and they will crucify you, because they place their trust in corrupt governments and corrupt financial systems. ( The Dot-com Bubble / 2005 Housing Bubble /  2008 Oil Asset Bubble / 2011 Gold Asset Bubble / 2012 Treasury Notes Bubble / 2013 Stock Market Bubble / 2014 and 2015 U.S. Dollar Bubble )

It is all smoke and mirror tactics for the rich to get richer and the poor and middle class to suffer more.    OP says (WE) in his post, so I wonder who they represent? ==> Gold Bug? / Stock market shill / Fiat Banking slave? (They sound like one of the old school Fiat economists that made their profits in the Fiat system and now feel the need to come to a Bitcoin forum to try and save their old profit Milk cow from total collapse)  

Try to understand that digital assets can also have value.... because "Assets can be grouped into two major classes: tangible assets and intangible assets.  Intangible assets include goodwill, copyrights, trademarks, patents, computer programs and financial assets, including financial investments, bonds, and stocks." Source : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asset

A skin for a gun in "Counter Strike" has value to a gamer and for him it is a digital asset..... In Bitcoin the digital asset is the Bitcoin token.  

[Snowshow]

The Fiat scam are the biggest scam of all time ....and they even tricked people into believing that debt can be a asset. Debt cannot be an asset if it cannot be repaid ...and if it is paid with toilet paper money that are printed out of thin air... then it is even worst.

Try to explain to people that most investment options are "digital" ...and worthless when IT systems fail... and they will crucify you, because they place their trust in corrupt governments and corrupt financial systems. ( The Dot-com Bubble / 2005 Housing Bubble /  2008 Oil Asset Bubble / 2011 Gold Asset Bubble / 2012 Treasury Notes Bubble / 2013 Stock Market Bubble / 2014 and 2015 U.S. Dollar Bubble )

It is all smoke and mirror tactics for the rich to get richer and the poor and middle class to suffer more.    OP says (WE) in his post, so I wonder who they represent? ==> Gold Bug? / Stock market shill / Fiat Banking slave? (They sound like one of the old school Fiat economists that made their profits in the Fiat system and now feel the need to come to a Bitcoin forum to try and save their old profit Milk cow from total collapse)  

Debt to holders of banknotes or deposits is paid in goods services and labor. Literally every day by borrowers in order for these borrowersso to be able to reply their loan. It's a simple, legitimate borrowing business supervised by the banks. People invests goods services and labor in deposits or banknotes when they are put into circulation with loans. And then, goods, services and labor are returned to people when deposits and banknotes are withdrawn for loan repayments. So, people who hold banknotes and deposis benefit from within the banking system.

It's bitcoin what is a scam, given none of the number holders can benefit from within the system but need the contribution of the funds from new investors, which is like in all investment scams.

[Kakmakr]

The Fiat scam are the biggest scam of all time ....and they even tricked people into believing that debt can be a asset. Debt cannot be an asset if it cannot be repaid ...and if it is paid with toilet paper money that are printed out of thin air... then it is even worst.

Try to explain to people that most investment options are "digital" ...and worthless when IT systems fail... and they will crucify you, because they place their trust in corrupt governments and corrupt financial systems. ( The Dot-com Bubble / 2005 Housing Bubble /  2008 Oil Asset Bubble / 2011 Gold Asset Bubble / 2012 Treasury Notes Bubble / 2013 Stock Market Bubble / 2014 and 2015 U.S. Dollar Bubble )

It is all smoke and mirror tactics for the rich to get richer and the poor and middle class to suffer more.    OP says (WE) in his post, so I wonder who they represent? ==> Gold Bug? / Stock market shill / Fiat Banking slave? (They sound like one of the old school Fiat economists that made their profits in the Fiat system and now feel the need to come to a Bitcoin forum to try and save their old profit Milk cow from total collapse)  

Debt to holders of banknotes or deposits is paid in goods services and labor. Literally every day by borrowers in order for these borrowersso to be able to reply their loan. It's a simple, legitimate borrowing business supervised by the banks. People invests goods services and labor in deposits or banknotes when they are put into circulation with loans. And then, goods, services and labor are returned to people when deposits and banknotes are withdrawn for loan repayments. So, people who hold banknotes and deposis benefit from within the banking system.

It's bitcoin what is a scam, given none of the number holders can benefit from within the system but need the contribution of the funds from new investors, which is like in all investment scams.

Ok, it is confirmed... (Look at his post history) ...he is either a Fiat Banking Shill or just a butthurt Troll that lost some money on Crypto currencies and now turns his anger to the Bitcoin community to spread FUD about Bitcoin and Crypto currencies.

People should not even respond to his threads anymore, because you will simply feed this trolls behavior. We (Bitcoin enthusiasts) will never convince people like this to see the real truth, because their agenda to support a failing Fiat financial system is too strong.

You only see these trolls coming out when the Bitcoin (Crypto) prices are dropping.... because their misinformation are more effective when there is doubt and uncertainty and Fear. (FUD)  

[Snowshow]

The Fiat scam are the biggest scam of all time ....and they even tricked people into believing that debt can be a asset. Debt cannot be an asset if it cannot be repaid ...and if it is paid with toilet paper money that are printed out of thin air... then it is even worst.

Try to explain to people that most investment options are "digital" ...and worthless when IT systems fail... and they will crucify you, because they place their trust in corrupt governments and corrupt financial systems. ( The Dot-com Bubble / 2005 Housing Bubble /  2008 Oil Asset Bubble / 2011 Gold Asset Bubble / 2012 Treasury Notes Bubble / 2013 Stock Market Bubble / 2014 and 2015 U.S. Dollar Bubble )

It is all smoke and mirror tactics for the rich to get richer and the poor and middle class to suffer more.    OP says (WE) in his post, so I wonder who they represent? ==> Gold Bug? / Stock market shill / Fiat Banking slave? (They sound like one of the old school Fiat economists that made their profits in the Fiat system and now feel the need to come to a Bitcoin forum to try and save their old profit Milk cow from total collapse)  

Debt to holders of banknotes or deposits is paid in goods services and labor. Literally every day by borrowers in order for these borrowersso to be able to reply their loan. It's a simple, legitimate borrowing business supervised by the banks. People invests goods services and labor in deposits or banknotes when they are put into circulation with loans. And then, goods, services and labor are returned to people when deposits and banknotes are withdrawn for loan repayments. So, people who hold banknotes and deposis benefit from within the banking system.

It's bitcoin what is a scam, given none of the number holders can benefit from within the system but need the contribution of the funds from new investors, which is like in all investment scams.

Ok, it is confirmed... (Look at his post history) ...he is either a Fiat Banking Shill or just a butthurt Troll that lost some money on Crypto currencies and now turns his anger to the Bitcoin community to spread FUD about Bitcoin and Crypto currencies.

People should not even respond to his threads anymore, because you will simply feed this trolls behavior. We (Bitcoin enthusiasts) will never convince people like this to see the real truth, because their agenda to support a failing Fiat financial system is too strong.

You only see these trolls coming out when the Bitcoin (Crypto) prices are dropping.... because their misinformation are more effective when there is doubt and uncertainty and Fear. (FUD)  

You cannot hide the bitcoin scam by putting the finger on forum users. Why is it that you so vehemently defend this scam? I know. Because you need other people's funds to benefit. Within the system there's nothing to benefit from, so you need new suckers to enter the system. But unfortunately the number of those is always limited. The scam will come to its end eventually. Instead of being obsessed with forum users, try to accept that majority of people never benefit from investment scams.

[noorman0]

I don't think anything.

You ignore the outline of my parable which refutes your basic(repeated) argument.

It's bitcoin what is a scam, given none of the number holders can benefit from within the system but need the contribution of the funds from new investors, which is like in all investment scams.

Obviously, you are the typical person who is too comfortable with the conventional centralized financial system that you will not accept the new system. Let's end your trying to convince people here, bitcoin is a scam and we love being scammed by satoshi. period

[Dunamisx]

When other scammers saw how naive people are, and how easy is to trick them out of their money, they also started producing systems for creating the illusion of asset. The illusions, produced by these systems are known by the name "cryptocurrencies". And are now popping up all over the place like mushrooms after rain.

I may chose to believe this to an extent but we need to clarify that not every cryptocurrency aside bitcoin is an illicit project or bad investment, even though we have a good number of the ones in in disguise as a coin but in real sense they utilize the opportunity to safely hide under such in other to suave away user's investment asset along the way, that is why running a background check on any project or crypto coin is very important, knowing who were those behind a specific coin, but in other to save the long and unnecessary stress bitcoin is the best investment over times.

[Snowshow]

I don't think anything.

You ignore the outline of my parable which refutes your basic(repeated) argument.

It's bitcoin what is a scam, given none of the number holders can benefit from within the system but need the contribution of the funds from new investors, which is like in all investment scams.

Obviously, you are the typical person who is too comfortable with the conventional centralized financial system that you will not accept the new system. Let's end your trying to convince people here, bitcoin is a scam and we love being scammed by satoshi. period

You're again obsessed with the forum user. Which is a typical behavior of those who lack rational arguments. I have refuted your misconceptions about fiat money. And demonstrated that people can exist the Satoshi's system only through the contribution from new investors like in all investment scams. Given you cannot refute that, you're engaging in ad hominem attacks.

[TajniAgent]

Yes, BitCON is a huge scam. Maybe not exactly scam, as a pump and dump coordinated pyramid scheme for insiders trading and bot machines along with shiller who need the next idiot to put his cash into crypto synthetically driving the price up so they unload on idiots who believe that story.

BitCON jesus satoshi saw it as - BitCON as a P2P digital cash. But its faulty by definition. By definition cash is anonymous, and there is no transaction fees, cash transactions are never recorded on a public ledger for ever. BitCON on the other hand is all contrary to that. Huge transaction fees, publicly publish transaction records, not anonymous. Dont give me lightning network please. Plus its slow, expensive, spending huuge amounts of electricity. In short terms, completly USELESS. Only use it has is using electricity for nothing, and pyramid pump and dump schemes by insiders to steal peoples money.

Then when the scammers saw that you can no longer sell the bullshit story, then they sell you BitCON is store of value. By definition it fails, since:

Code:

A store of value is essentially an asset, commodity, or currency that can be saved, retrieved, and exchanged in the future without deteriorating in value. In other words, to enter this category, the item acquired should, over time, either be worth the same or more. 

If someone buyed bitcon 3 months ago, his wealth deteriorated, so that is a scam also by definition.

[NotATether]

Ok, this is how you, or generally people who educate themselves by reading conspiracy theories, view banks and how they rationalize their participation in this scam. That what you described is a classical misconception about banks. Now I am going to explain to you what the facts are.

I would say the above is how you are rationalizing your consipracy theory.

Banks are in the business of granting loans to borrowers, that is, creating debt. When debt is created this must be evidenced somehow. For that purpose deposits or banknotes are used. As you can see, no debt - no deposits or banknotes. The latter are therefore just records of something that exists. The same as when Tesla company produce a car and then evidence the car's existence with a record in the accounting books. Once the debt is in existence, people invest in it. They invest by exchanging goods, services and labor with the borrowers for the deposits or banknotes. Finally, debt needs to be paid. That's why the banks use mortgages and other liens to force the borrowers to repay the loans. In that way the borrowers return goods, services and labor back to the people and settle the debt. The deposits and banknotes went out of circulation in that way. Meaning, no debt - no records of it. So, this is a legitimate business of creating debt, investing in debt, and settling debt. Debt is an asset because people (holders of deposits or banknotes) benefit at the debt settlement. Asset means that people benefit from it, either today, tomorrow or in the future.

In the Satoshi's system, on the other hand, there's no asset. All you have is protocols and database that use name BTC and numbers to create the illusion of asset and in that way trick people out of their real assets. Once they are tricked, they can benefit only if new investors voluntarily enter the system.  Which is a textbook definition of a scam. So, there's no currency in the system. A currency is money and money is an asset [This is false. -NotATether]. Saying that there's currency in the Satoshi's system is spreading disinformation.

You are once again making the categorial mistake of classifying Bitcoin as merely a security instead of a currency proper. Foreign banknotes cannot be modeled  with your above description - because the foreign currencies have backing in their respective countries' banks. Similarly, cryptocurrencies have the backing of all exchanges which sell them to users.

The reason you don't see BTC used as a debt is because banks don't issue loans in BTC, only in USD and other currencies.

And the final interjection you put at the end of your argument brings it crashing down like a house of cards: Your theory that money is an asset.

Money is not an asset - it is a vector used to buy actual assets like gold, stocks etc. and liabilities (an asset cannot be used as a currency).

[Snowshow]

Ok, this is how you, or generally people who educate themselves by reading conspiracy theories, view banks and how they rationalize their participation in this scam. That what you described is a classical misconception about banks. Now I am going to explain to you what the facts are.

I would say the above is how you are rationalizing your consipracy theory.

Banks are in the business of granting loans to borrowers, that is, creating debt. When debt is created this must be evidenced somehow. For that purpose deposits or banknotes are used. As you can see, no debt - no deposits or banknotes. The latter are therefore just records of something that exists. The same as when Tesla company produce a car and then evidence the car's existence with a record in the accounting books. Once the debt is in existence, people invest in it. They invest by exchanging goods, services and labor with the borrowers for the deposits or banknotes. Finally, debt needs to be paid. That's why the banks use mortgages and other liens to force the borrowers to repay the loans. In that way the borrowers return goods, services and labor back to the people and settle the debt. The deposits and banknotes went out of circulation in that way. Meaning, no debt - no records of it. So, this is a legitimate business of creating debt, investing in debt, and settling debt. Debt is an asset because people (holders of deposits or banknotes) benefit at the debt settlement. Asset means that people benefit from it, either today, tomorrow or in the future.

In the Satoshi's system, on the other hand, there's no asset. All you have is protocols and database that use name BTC and numbers to create the illusion of asset and in that way trick people out of their real assets. Once they are tricked, they can benefit only if new investors voluntarily enter the system.  Which is a textbook definition of a scam. So, there's no currency in the system. A currency is money and money is an asset [This is false. -NotATether]. Saying that there's currency in the Satoshi's system is spreading disinformation.

You are once again making the categorial mistake of classifying Bitcoin as merely a security instead of a currency proper. Foreign banknotes cannot be modeled  with your above description - because the foreign currencies have backing in their respective countries' banks. Similarly, cryptocurrencies have the backing of all exchanges which sell them to users.

The reason you don't see BTC used as a debt is because banks don't issue loans in BTC, only in USD and other currencies.

And the final interjection you put at the end of your argument brings it crashing down like a house of cards: Your theory that money is an asset.

Money is not an asset - it is a vector used to buy actual assets like gold, stocks etc. and liabilities (an asset cannot be used as a currency).

You're playing semantics.
First. Foreign banknotes are evidence of investment in foreign debt. Just like you can invest in foreign companies you can invest in foreign debt. Nothing changes with regards to debt payment.

Second. A currency is s resource. A resource is something that benefits people. Fiat money is a resource that benefits people at debt repayments, as explained in the OP. A company is a resource because people benefit from capital or the production of goods and services. Gold is a resource because people benefit from it by usage in dentistry, medicine, electronics, computers, medals, statues, jewellery...

When you enter the Satoshi's system you haven't got a resource that benefits people. Only a number was attached to your address to create the illusion of quantity. That's all. Then you wait for the new investors to bring in the resources from which you can benefit. That's a textbook definition of an investment scam. People are scammed by various narratives that claim that in the system there's a currency or asset. Meaning, that in the system there's a resource from which people can benefit. Bu no one can benefit from within the system. The whole system is a giant fraud that uses name and numbers to create the illusion of currency or asset or money.

[jostorres]

You have 1 subscriber on your youtube channel, OP, good job! I can see the message of hate is getting where it's supposed to.
Did you make all this effort to make an account here just to tell us how stupid we are believing in a scam?

I know you don't like it, but what's the purpose of going to a concert to tell people that the band sucks and they should leave? 

There are tons of people who will do the upmost weird things that you can imagine just to get some attention. This isn't even about just making money via youtube or any other platform anymore, it's about getting attention.

I can honestly feel shocked about people who have failed to be a social media influencer at this day and age, there are enough people to get attention from and there isn't any lack of attention because they keep giving it to thousands of people at a time, each person. I can literally build a youtube channel (tiresome work, wouldn't) or a twitter account (easier, did it multiple times) in 6 months that gets offers from projects to promote them. This isn't the way to do it.

[BlackHatCoiner]

You are once again making the categorial mistake of classifying Bitcoin as merely a security instead of a currency proper.

He's making lots of mistakes and fallacies. Emphasis mine.

Where're 5 things that the person bought after number 5 was attached to their address? What is that mega expensive product that the person paid $40.000 a piece? All you do is repeating "Bitcoin is this", Bitcoin is that" like a broken record, without proving anything.

People in bitcoin community blindly believe Satoshi like he is some kind of God. He wrote in his paper that his system creates coins and the community accepted that without a question. But all that his system does is attaching numbers to addresses.

You're again talking nonsense. People don't agree that the ladger is satisfactory, whatever that means, but to have numbers stored to their address. And they do that because they falsely believe these numbers quantify a digital asset called bitcoin. They believe so, because thay accepted Satoshi's paper at face value. Or because they fall for false narrative and misleading information spread throughout social media.

And further BS from his alt:

Bitcoin has zero cost in creation. It's created by a mere program function.

Given that bitcoin is not a security one can utilize it via its intrinsic value, like all non securities, that is, economic goods, are utilized. The intrinsic value of bitcoin is watching number on a screen. The bitcoin system exists only to provide the holders with this "watching" and to transfer it between people. First the miners invest electricity to make the system running, and the system rewards them by giving them the ability to watch a number on the screen. Then, they sell this "watching" to someone else. Currently, people ask $37,000 for it. I am simply asking why would I pay so much money for something like that?

Fiat money is a resource that benefits people at debt repayments, as explained in the OP.

But, fiat money is no resource by default. It begins to have value once it's loaned. Once it's borrowed. Once it's used. Once it's demanded. Once it's supplied. Fiat, alone, does not create debt, which is the resource.

[Snowshow]

You have 1 subscriber on your youtube channel, OP, good job! I can see the message of hate is getting where it's supposed to.
Did you make all this effort to make an account here just to tell us how stupid we are believing in a scam?

I know you don't like it, but what's the purpose of going to a concert to tell people that the band sucks and they should leave? 

There are tons of people who will do the upmost weird things that you can imagine just to get some attention. This isn't even about just making money via youtube or any other platform anymore, it's about getting attention.

I can honestly feel shocked about people who have failed to be a social media influencer at this day and age, there are enough people to get attention from and there isn't any lack of attention because they keep giving it to thousands of people at a time, each person. I can literally build a youtube channel (tiresome work, wouldn't) or a twitter account (easier, did it multiple times) in 6 months that gets offers from projects to promote them. This isn't the way to do it.

Ad hominem. Theorizing on forum users is trolling.

[Snowshow]

But, fiat money is no resource by default. It begins to have value once it's loaned. Once it's borrowed. Once it's used. Once it's demanded. Once it's supplied. Fiat, alone, does not create debt, which is the resource.

When debt is produced, it is evidenced with deposits or banknotes, that is, records. When a car is produced by a company, it is evidenced with a record in company's accounting books. So, your statement is like saying: record on car alone, doesn't create car, which is a resource. Yes, records on resources are not resources themselves. They are just info on the existence of resources. That's why if you create a record without a resource this is called counterfeit or fraud. Point of your statement is therefore what? What are you trying to say? Have you finally realized why bitcoin is a fraud?

[hv_]

Bitcoin was created by Satoshi as a really unique usefull electronic cash system, so if stable as defined like any commodity and can be used , cause such stable and clean, it is also a true commodity like cloud space or time stamping blockchain services....

But, btc got changed. Yepp, that is the issue

[Snowshow]

Bitcoin was created by Satoshi as a really unique usefull electronic cash system, so if stable as defined like any commodity and can be used , cause such stable and clean, it is also a true commodity like cloud space or time stamping blockchain services....

But, btc got changed. Yepp, that is the issue

No, no and no. Bitcoin was created as a scam where an anonymous person imagined a number - 21 million, then created a system that attributes the units of that number to virtual address of people, and falsely claimed that these units represent some digital coins or asset or money called Bitcoin. But nothing of the sort exists in that person's system. Which is why the address holders can benefit only from funds contributed by new investors - just like in all investment scams.

[BlackHatCoiner]

Point of your statement is therefore what?

That debt is created using no resources; banknotes have no intrinsic value, they're exactly like bitcoin. They're created out of thin air, they can't be used for anything beyond transactions. It's just that their usage is being forced.

You say that debt is evidenced with deposits of those banknotes, I tell you that you can also create debt with bitcoin, if that's your only problem. We have a whole Lending sub-board. There are people who borrow coins with collateral, check it out.

[Snowshow]

Point of your statement is therefore what?

That debt is created using no resources; banknotes have no intrinsic value, they're exactly like bitcoin. They're created out of thin air, they can't be used for anything beyond transactions. It's just that their usage is being forced.

You say that debt is evidenced with deposits of those banknotes, I tell you that you can also create debt with bitcoin, if that's your only problem. We have a whole Lending sub-board. There are people who borrow coins with collateral, check it out.

Every record of an asset is intrinsically worthless and created out of thin air. "100 TSLA" is intrinsically worthless. "100 USD" is intrinsically worthless. "100 BTC" is intrinsically worthless. But, in the first two instances we have the records of assets. And it is these assets what the holders of the records own. In the last instance we have the record of nothing that exists with the purpose to trick people into believing that an actual asset exists behind the record. Which is a fraud. Holders of the record own nothing which is why they need the assets of new investors to save themselves from the fraud - like in all investment frauds. You can keep with your sophistry, but nothing will change in that regard.

[BlackHatCoiner]

But, in the first two instances we have the the records of assets.

Exactly. The first two are promises, so-called IOUs. If I send you $5 from my bank account, I will have only moved a promise. Only if we met in real life and I handed you over $5 in cash, we'd have actually accomplished a transaction of $5 without IOUs, intermediaries, promises, trust in general. Only then we would have moved dollars - the asset. In any other way, we'd have moved a liability.

We use electronic cash for the same reason we use cash to settle transactions. Censorship resistance, privacy, lower costs, financial sovereignty.