How Satoshi Nakamoto Fooled the World

[Snowshow]

You are not storing or moving value, but numbers. A number is a concept on quantity of things. A thing is value, not a number. If there's a number "10", next to your name or address, this is suggesting that there are 10 pieces of a thing in your possession. But if the thing is not in your possession, the number is fake. And that's exactly the case with bitcoin. There's no such thing as bitcoin in the possession of an address holder which has a specific number attached to their address. So, blockchain is just a giant collection of fake numbers. And bitcoin cannot be value by definition, given it doesn't exist.

I will put it in your words:

You talk nonsense and stupidity.

When transferring Bitcoin, people are not transferring numbers but bitcoins. Why is that so hard for you to understand? Bitcoin doesn't represent anything just like gold doesn't represent anything - they both have value for what they are - Bitcoin and gold. That is the thing you must learn to understand - Bitcoin doesn't represent anything and it's value doesn't come from it representing some other asset. It's value comes from it being Bitcoin! Just like value of gold bar comes from it being a gold bar. Just like value of water comes from it being water.

You're repeating nonsense that I already debunked. Gold is a thing that exists. Bitcoin doesn't. Saying or writing down that you own 5 ounces of gold, means you're able to show an actual metal in your possession. Otherwise you're lying. Whan you say that you own 5 bitcoins, or this is written down in your wallet, but you're not able to show a digital product in the quantity of 5, that means you're lying and that the wallet has fake numbers.

One of the key inventions of Satoshi Nakamoto was digital scarcity. This was obtained by solving the double spending problem. You can read about it here: https://komodoplatform.com/en/academy/double-spending-problem/

That's what makes sending Bitcoin different to sending an SMS message.

Scarcity is a concept of existing things. For something to be scarce it must exist. Bitcoin doesn't exist so it cannot be scarce.

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[slackovic]

You're repeating nonsense that I already debunked. Gold is a thing that exists. Bitcoin doesn't. Saying or writing down that you own 5 ounces of gold, means you're able to show an actual metal in your possession. Otherwise you're lying. Whan you say that you own 5 bitcoins, or this is written down in your wallet, but you're not able to show a digital product in the quantity of 5,  them means you're lying and that the wallet has fake numbers.

Now you are repeating nonsense... Bitcoin is a digital commodity and digital commodities doesn't exist in a physical world. I guess you have a problem understanding that not everything has to be physical in order for it to be real. Here is a definition of a new type of commodity - crypto commodity. But I'm sure you will say one more time that it's not a real commodity because you can't touch it.

[Snowshow]

You're repeating nonsense that I already debunked. Gold is a thing that exists. Bitcoin doesn't. Saying or writing down that you own 5 ounces of gold, means you're able to show an actual metal in your possession. Otherwise you're lying. Whan you say that you own 5 bitcoins, or this is written down in your wallet, but you're not able to show a digital product in the quantity of 5,  them means you're lying and that the wallet has fake numbers.

Now you are repeating nonsense... Bitcoin is a digital commodity and digital commodities doesn't exist in a physical world. I guess you have a problem understanding that not everything has to be physical in order for it to be real. Here is a definition of a new type of commodity - crypto commodity. But I'm sure you will say one more time that it's not a real commodity because you can't touch it.

Commodity is something that exists. Be it digital or not. Digital things are existing things. Books, documents, sounds, pictures...are digital. Applications are digital. Non of them can you touch. But they exist. Saying bitcoin is a digital commodity is as nonsensical as saying Zeus is a digital commodity. You can say whatever you want for a thing whose existence you are not able to prove. You can write down in a database that you own 5 shares in Zeus. If you are not able to show Zeus, that what you've written down is nonsense. That's what Satoshi's software is doing. Writing down nonsense. Fake numbers. Quantities of a thing that no one is able to show. You can as well say that bitcoin is an ice cream. Or a car. Or a diamond. It's all equally stupid as saying that bitcoin is a digital commodity.

[romeitaly]

Now you are repeating nonsense... Bitcoin is a digital commodity and digital commodities doesn't exist in a physical world. I guess you have a problem understanding that not everything has to be physical in order for it to be real. Here is a definition of a new type of commodity - crypto commodity. But I'm sure you will say one more time that it's not a real commodity because you can't touch it.

People who still have a hard time wrapping around their brains around the fact that bitcoin is a commodity are people that still thinks that they have to touch everything physically because they still can't believe that the digital age has been here for a long time and they still stick to the old values that might or might not be applicable anymore. Also, stocks are somewhat a digital commodity so I don't get why they can't believe bitcoin is one when bitcoin isn't even the first one.

[slackovic]

Commodity is something that exists. Be it digital or not. Digital things are existing things. Books, documents, sounds, pictures...are digital. Applications are digital. Non of them can you touch. But they exist. Saying bitcoin is a digital commodity is as nonsensical as saying Zeus is a digital commodity. You can say whatever you want for a thing whose existence you are not able to prove. You can write down in a database that you own 5 shares in Zeus. If you are not able to show Zeus, that what you've written down is nonsense. That's what Satoshi's software is doing. Writing down nonsense. Fake numbers. Quantities of a thing that no one is able to show. You can as well say that bitcoin is an ice cream. Or a car. Or a diamond. It's all equally stupid as saying that bitcoin is a digital commodity.

It's pointless to argue with you when you don't want to accept the premise that Bitcoin is a completely new thing and that you can't compare it to anything. Is Internet real? Internet doesn't cost anything and it can't be bought, but you must agree that it's a real thing and yet, you can't prove it's existence.

People who still have a hard time wrapping around their brains around the fact that bitcoin is a commodity are people that still thinks that they have to touch everything physically because they still can't believe that the digital age has been here for a long time and they still stick to the old values that might or might not be applicable anymore. Also, stocks are somewhat a digital commodity so I don't get why they can't believe bitcoin is one when bitcoin isn't even the first one.

True, but stocks are a representation of something. Bitcoin is not a representation of something. It's Bitcoin.

[Snowshow]

Commodity is something that exists. Be it digital or not. Digital things are existing things. Books, documents, sounds, pictures...are digital. Applications are digital. Non of them can you touch. But they exist. Saying bitcoin is a digital commodity is as nonsensical as saying Zeus is a digital commodity. You can say whatever you want for a thing whose existence you are not able to prove. You can write down in a database that you own 5 shares in Zeus. If you are not able to show Zeus, that what you've written down is nonsense. That's what Satoshi's software is doing. Writing down nonsense. Fake numbers. Quantities of a thing that no one is able to show. You can as well say that bitcoin is an ice cream. Or a car. Or a diamond. It's all equally stupid as saying that bitcoin is a digital commodity.

It's pointless to argue with you when you don't want to accept the premise that Bitcoin is a completely new thing and that you can't compare it to anything. Is Internet real? Internet doesn't cost anything and it can't be bought, but you must agree that it's a real thing and yet, you can't prove it's existence.

People who still have a hard time wrapping around their brains around the fact that bitcoin is a commodity are people that still thinks that they have to touch everything physically because they still can't believe that the digital age has been here for a long time and they still stick to the old values that might or might not be applicable anymore. Also, stocks are somewhat a digital commodity so I don't get why they can't believe bitcoin is one when bitcoin isn't even the first one.

True, but stocks are a representation of something. Bitcoin is not a representation of something. It's Bitcoin.

This is literally crazy. How do you know that bitcoin is "a thing" and that it is "new" if you're unable to prove its existence? Where're 5 things that the person bought after number 5 was attached to their address? What is that mega expensive product that the person paid $40.000 a piece? All you do is repeating "Bitcoin is this", Bitcoin is that" like a broken record, without proving anything.

[BlackHatCoiner]

The same is with everything else. A company produces cars and then they put numbers in accounting books to express quantity of cars.

No, it's not and that's where you're wrong. When I have a signed contract that says I own 10 cars, those represent something that exists. When my bank account says that I own $100 that cash supposedly exist. The hundred dollar bill ALONE does not represent something that exists. It's not debt UNTIL it's loaned. That's same for everything; they don't create debt until they're loaned.

The central bank issues banknotes that don't represent ANYTHING at first.

[Snowshow]

The same is with everything else. A company produces cars and then they put numbers in accounting books to express quantity of cars.

No, it's not and that's where you're wrong. When I have a signed contract that says I own 10 cars, those represent something that exists. When my bank account says that I own $100 that cash supposedly exist. The hundred dollar bill ALONE does not represent something that exists. It's not debt UNTIL it's loaned. That's same for everything; they don't create debt until they're loaned.

The central bank issues banknotes that don't represent ANYTHING at first.

It is not nice when you project your own ignorance and a lack of knowledge on others. Every paper bill handed to individuals and companies came from deposit accounts. Loans are granted on deposit accounts, and then withdrawn as cash. Numbers that represented debt on deposit accounts, in the same amount represent that debt on paper. If 1000 is withdrawn those same numbers are now on paper bills. Literally every bill, except of course counterfeit ones, represent debt that was created by issuing loans. When borrowers are paying back loans, paper bills are deposited, and from their deposit accounts are transferred for loan liquidation. In that way debt is settled. Paper bills that the central banks took out of circulation or just printed represent of course nothing. But those are not in the hands of individuals and companies. So I don't know what was the point of your last sentence. How can a central bank grant loans to commercial banks in paper bills without first printing bills? You have some bizarre way of looking at things.

[slackovic]

This is literally crazy. How do you know that bitcoin is "a thing" and that it is "new" if you're unable to prove its existence? Where're 5 things that the person bought after number 5 was attached to their address? What is that mega expensive product that the person paid $40.000 a piece? All you do is repeating "Bitcoin is this", Bitcoin is that" like a broken record, without proving anything.

You didn't answer me how is Internet different than Bitcoin? How can you prove existence of the Internet? And don't say that we are talking about Bitcoin and not Internet. I want to hear from you how do you prove that Internet is a thing. Maybe that will give me an idea how to prove that Bitcoin is a thing.

[BlackHatCoiner]

We see things differently, therefore, you'll have to answer me the following, otherwise you're wasting your time in this forum: Can people use a medium of exchange that is not credit? 'Cause if they can settle transactions without debt, there's no problem on using a currency that doesn't represent anything at all, such as Bitcoin. (Or the banknotes, before they create debt)

As long as they agree that the ledger is satisfactory, they can use that one to deal with, even if the ledger represents things that don't exist tangibly and only have a unit-representation.

[DaveF]

I guess the question remains can you buy goods and services easily with bitcon? And the answer is yes.
Can you buy good and services easily for gold. And the answer is just about no.

So gold is not worth anything since I can't just add a drive to my cart at newegg.com and pay for it with gold but I can with bitcoin.

-Dave

[Snowshow]

We see things differently, therefore, you'll have to answer me the following, otherwise you're wasting your time in this forum: Can people use a medium of exchange that is not credit? 'Cause if they can settle transactions without debt, there's no problem on using a currency that doesn't represent anything at all, such as Bitcoin. (Or the banknotes, before they create debt)

As long as they agree that the ledger is satisfactory, they can use that one to deal with, even if the ledger represents things that don't exist tangibly and only have a unit-representation.

We don't see things differently. You are imagining things that don't exist in reality. You create fictions because you lack basic knowledge of economy and finance.

People use a medium of exchange that is not credit all the time. However, this medium of exchange exists. That's the whole point. A thing must exist to be able to be exchanged. Bitcoin doesn't exist so there's nothing to exchange. People in bitcoin community blindly believe Satoshi like he is some kind of God. He wrote in his paper that his system creates coins and the community accepted that without a question. But all that his system does is attaching numbers to addresses. Then the wallet is lying that this number is quantifying "BTC" - a digital thing called Bitcoin. But this thing is non-existent. A guy with "0" attached to his address is not able to show a digital thing in his possession, the same as a guy that has 1,000 attached to his address. The last guy simply creates fictions in his imagination and believes that he owns a valuable digital product, without being able to show it. It's like a mythology. Just like people believed Zeus exists without being able to show it, bitcoin community believes bitcoin exists without being able to show it. They are blind believes in the sacred text that Satoshi wrote. It is literally unbelievable that people believe blindly an anonymous guy ever when they see with their own eyes that no digital product exist in their possession.  

[AicecreaME]

I don't think you fully comprehend the idea of how bitcoin works. Bitcoin isn't just a messaging system. It is so much more than that. Bitcoin is a mode of transaction as well as store of value. It serves these two main purposes with the help of blockchain technology. To say that it's sole purpose is messaging would be insulting it.

Digital technology exists, and it proves just how the bitcoin and other cryptocurrencies exist too. You can't just claim that they don't just because you are used to traditional and tangible ones. I suggest that you make a more in-depth research about it so that you'll be enlightened. I'm glad to read that people here in forum are educating and not really mocking.

[BlackHatCoiner]

People use a medium of exchange that is not credit all the time. However, this medium of exchange exists. That's the whole point. A thing must exist to be able to be exchanged. Bitcoin doesn't exist so there's nothing to exchange.

And I repeat;

As long as they agree that the ledger is satisfactory, they can use that one to deal with, even if the ledger represents things that don't exist tangibly and only have a unit-representation.

What's your problem if people choose to do that?

[Snowshow]

This is literally crazy. How do you know that bitcoin is "a thing" and that it is "new" if you're unable to prove its existence? Where're 5 things that the person bought after number 5 was attached to their address? What is that mega expensive product that the person paid $40.000 a piece? All you do is repeating "Bitcoin is this", Bitcoin is that" like a broken record, without proving anything.

You didn't answer me how is Internet different than Bitcoin? How can you prove existence of the Internet? And don't say that we are talking about Bitcoin and not Internet. I want to hear from you how do you prove that Internet is a thing. Maybe that will give me an idea how to prove that Bitcoin is a thing.

Internet is used by nodes to store fake numbers. Without the internet there wouldn't be bitcoin fraud.

[slackovic]

Internet is used by nodes to store fake numbers. Without the internet there wouldn't be bitcoin fraud.

I didn't ask you to tell me what is Internet compared to Bitcoin. I asked you to tell me how can you prove that Internet exists? If you can accept the fact that Internet is used for two computers to communicate, then Bitcoin's proof of existence is the fact that it is used to trade.

[royalfestus]

When you read articles of conspiracy theory from people close to Warren Buffet ( too old to understand financial technology innovation), this will be how they will view bitcoin.

[Snowshow]

People use a medium of exchange that is not credit all the time. However, this medium of exchange exists. That's the whole point. A thing must exist to be able to be exchanged. Bitcoin doesn't exist so there's nothing to exchange.

And I repeat;

As long as they agree that the ledger is satisfactory, they can use that one to deal with, even if the ledger represents things that don't exist tangibly and only have a unit-representation.

What's your problem if people choose to do that?

You're again talking nonsense. People don't agree that the ladger is satisfactory, whatever that means, but to have numbers stored to their address. And they do that because they falsely believe these numbers quantify a digital asset called bitcoin. They believe so, because thay accepted Satoshi's paper at face value. Or because they fall for false narrative and misleading information spread throughout social media.

[Snowshow]

Internet is used by nodes to store fake numbers. Without the internet there wouldn't be bitcoin fraud.

I didn't ask you to tell me what is Internet compared to Bitcoin. I asked you to tell me how can you prove that Internet exists? If you can accept the fact that Internet is used for two computers to communicate, then Bitcoin's proof of existence is the fact that it is used to trade.

Internet is computers and communication protocols. Those exist. Bitcoin is not "used" given it doesn't exist. Numbers are attached to address by Satoshi's system. Attaching numbers is a proof that numbers are attached. Attaching letters is proof that letters are attached. Attaching a picture to a email message is proof that a picture is attached. No bitcoins magically emerge by attaching one thing to another. You believe in some sort of alchemy. Try to use your brains for a second instead of repeating the same nonsense over and over again.

[BlackHatCoiner]

People don't agree that the ladger is satisfactory

Guess what: You don't get to choose what others agree upon. I personally find it very useful, if others find it so. Transferring value across the borders, with no one's permission. No one can alter past transactions of the ledger, no matter the good excuse. The costs to transact are nearly zero. It's more private. It's faster.

Even if those units don't represent anything, I don't have a problem as long as there are others who're also willing to accept it same like I do. What the hell is so difficult to grasp about that?