The Bitcoin Paradox - a Simple Online Scam Honored as Deity

[Snowshow]

But, in the first two instances we have the the records of assets.

Exactly. The first two are promises, so-called IOUs. If I send you $5 from my bank account, I will have only moved a promise. Only if we met in real life and I handed you over $5 in cash, we'd have actually accomplished a transaction of $5 without IOUs, intermediaries, promises, trust in general. Only then we would have moved dollars - the asset. In any other way, we'd have moved a liability.

We use electronic cash for the same reason we use cash to settle transactions. Censorship resistance, privacy, lower costs, financial sovereignty.

Like I said, you can keep preaching your sophistry, but the facts won't change. No asset exists in the Satoshi's system, just the records for creating the illusion of asset. Equity and debt are not promises but assets. A promise is when you say to your girlfriend that you will be faithful. You don't promise a bank that you'll repay the debt. You pledge a collateral, and sign legally enforceable contract.

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[BlackHatCoiner]

No asset exists in the Satoshi's system, just the records for creating the illusion of asset.

But, it is nowhere stated that the ledger shows things that exist, that's you, who's benightedly and conservatively concluded it. There's nothing behind the number, it's just the number, but due to consensus and Proof-of-Work, that very number comes with benefits.

Equity and debt are not promises but assets.

They're not promises as is with credit, I might have formulated improperly, but a paper saying that I own something doesn't mean that I definitely own that something. Anyway, we've long gone off-topic, and I'm bored with your idiotic reasoning. Bye.

[Snowshow]

No asset exists in the Satoshi's system, just the records for creating the illusion of asset.

But, it is nowhere stated that the ledger shows things that exist, that's you, who's benightedly and conservatively concluded it. There's nothing behind the number, it's just the number, but due to consensus and Proof-of-Work, that very number comes with benefits.

Equity and debt are not promises but assets.

They're not promises as is with credit, I might have formulated improperly, but a paper saying that I own something doesn't mean that I definitely own that something. Anyway, we've long gone off-topic, and I'm bored with your idiotic reasoning. Bye.

You're lying, again. It is stated in the Bitcoin Whitepaper that the system produces coins or cash or money. Money is an asset. An asset is a resource that benefits people. However, no holder in the bitcoin system can benefit within the system.  Literally all of them need the resources from new investors to benefit. Further, how can they benefit from the Proof-of-Work that you're referring to? Again, they cannot. The whole system is a fraud that attributes the units of the imagined number (21 million) to people's addresses, and then lie to these people that they own an asset in the quantity of attributed units.

[Snowshow]

Fiat is debt that gets paid with every loan repayment. Banknotes and deposis are just the evidence of that debt. In the past you got gold for fiat. Today you get borrower's goods, services or labour. Debt is an asset.

Bitcoin is just another manifestation of the same debt.
In the past people have been using shells, or silver, or gold for the same job. Why can't we use Bitcoin? Because it's... digital? Or maybe because the governments cannot alter the value at will with inflation?
Even now, banks and governments use gold for the job. Why don't they just keep <only> the printed paper if it's so wonderful?

Bitcoin is a name that creates the illusion of asset. And thus, a scam. Those who are in the system are deceiving people by claiming they own asset or money while only name and numbers attributed to their addresses exist. That's why one can benefit only if new investors enter the system. Hence, classical investment scam.

Sour grapes much?

I completely agree with your view, in fact the governments themselves don't want bitcoin economy as they know that hyper bitcoinization will take away their powers to manipulate the currency value at will. Fiat holds no value in ittself. it is the value ascribed to it against debts. like gold which gives it it s value

"Bitcoin economy" is an oxymoron.

"The economy is the total of all activities related to the production, sale, distribution, exchange, and consumption of limited resources by a group of people living and operating within it."

In the bitcoin system no resources exist. Only units of an imagined number (21 million) are attributed to the addresses, and those attributions are stored with an enormous cost of energy.  In the fiat monetary system debt is produced and exchanged. Debt is a limited resource because it is based on limited number of collaterals. Comparing the bitcoin scam with fiat system is like comparing Monopoly game with real economy.

[OgNasty]

tl;dr
Bitcoin and crypto are simple online scams in the form of the systems for creating the illusion of assets(money). The illusion is created by misusing the concept of quantity and name. Quantity and name are representations of assets,  written on invoices, orders, accounts, deposits, banknots,... when assets such as debt, equity, commodity, real estate... are transferred between people. By writing down numbers and names, the crypto systems create the illusion of assets(money). In that way, they deceive people and trick them out of their real assets.

Bitcoin was created to fill a real need.  A cheap trustless global payments network for the internet.  It was needed and the innovation was real.  The blockchain is an excellent idea that I'm sure will eventually be implemented in many areas of our lives.  

However, Bitcoin as it exists today mainly as a, "store of value" isn't something I would have ever gotten involved in.  Sure, you can still use Bitcoin to make global payments.  I use it almost exclusively for all of my global payments (unless I'm forced to do fiat transfers).  The fees are generally still fairly low thanks to Bitcoin being split into two types of payment systems (one day only elitists will use on chain transactions) and for those who want to trust 3rd parties to manage or route their coins they will still be able to use it in the future.  We've gotten pretty far away from what satoshi had planned to change the world though.  I think core maintainers get an A+ for pumping Bitcoin's value, and a D- in keeping with it's principles.  On the plus side, now there will be an ever growing number of blockchains created for specific purposes, which will lead to lots of hacks and losses, but will also keep innovation moving and use cases once again growing.

[StarKay]

The OP failed to factor in the utility of Bitcoin.

Bitcoin is a solution to a problem caused by centralised financial system that the government created hence it's growing adoption and also it's ever increasing fiat tag.

After your hard labour and then you are rewarded, you now have a central authority telling you how not to spend your money, don't send money to this country, don't pay for this goods, you can't order this service. This is a real life problem that Bitcoin has solved.

Satoshi Nakamoto will forever be a hero for coming up with this technology, being critical of Bitcoin is allowed if the purpose is to improve on it but calling it a scam should be a redline on this forum that should lead to some penalty.

Newbies visit this form everyday and posts like this could be discouraging.

[Anonylz]

Stop your obsession with the people that are trying to help you. Focus on the system that tricks you, in order for the anonymous scammers to get their hands on your asset.

Why don't you let them be, these people clearly don't want to be help and as smart as you claim to be, i expect you to be able to recognize that and watch them wallow in lost when the time comes.
if i were you i wont bother lift a finger to help. just grab a bowl of popcorn and watch the movie unfold. 

[DooMAD]

In the bitcoin system no resources exist. Only units of an imagined number (21 million) are attributed to the addresses, and those attributions are stored with an enormous cost of energy. 

If no resources exist, it wouldn't require energy to store them.

You freely acknowledge something is being stored, ergo you accept it exists.

If something can be measured, it exists.  If something has value, it exists.  The issue is that you can't comprehend the measurements or the value.  The problem lies with you.

[Snowshow]

In the bitcoin system no resources exist. Only units of an imagined number (21 million) are attributed to the addresses, and those attributions are stored with an enormous cost of energy.  

If no resources exist, it wouldn't require energy to store them.

You freely acknowledge something is being stored, ergo you accept it exists.

If something can be measured, it exists.  If something has value, it exists.  The issue is that you can't comprehend the measurements or the value.  The problem lies with you.

The units of Satoshi's imagined number (21 million), attributed to online addresses, are stored, not the economic resources. That's why the holders of these units need the resources from new investors to benefit. Otherwise, they are doomed. But ultimately, the holders will be left holding the bag. Just like in every investment scam - the victims are those that stay the longest in the scheme.

[DooMAD]

the victims are those that stay the longest in the scheme.

That doesn't sound right either.  I've been in since 2013 and I'm doing just fine, thanks.  And the people who got in before I did are doing even better.   That's the complete and total opposite of what you're suggesting.  It's been an incredibly shrewd investment for those who had the sense to get in early and also had the fortitude to stick around this long.

Do you deliberately make your posts sound as though you haven't got the slightest clue what you're talking about?  Or does it just come naturally? 

[Snowshow]

the victims are those that stay the longest in the scheme.

That doesn't sound right either.  I've been in since 2013 and I'm doing just fine, thanks.  And the people who got in before I did are doing even better.   That's the complete and total opposite of what you're suggesting.  It's been an incredibly shrewd investment for those who had the sense to get in early and also had the fortitude to stick around this long.

Do you deliberately make your posts sound as though you haven't got the slightest clue what you're talking about?  Or does it just come naturally?  

Do you have problems with understanding the word: 'ultimately"? Ultimately, in all schemes where no resources exist and the investors are able to benefit only through resources contributed from new investors, the victims are those who stay the longest in the scheme. That is by definition. The so called bitcoin holders, own no resources in the scheme, from which they could benefit within the scheme. So, ultimately they will be left holding the bag.

[DooMAD]

Ultimately, in all schemes where no resources exist and the investors are able to benefit only through resources contributed from new investors, the victims are those who stay the longest in the scheme. That is by definition. The so called bitcoin holders, own no resources in the scheme, from which they could benefit within the scheme.

Also wrong.

I still benefit from censorship resistant transactions if no new participants join.
I still benefit from psudonymous levels of privacy if no new participants join.
I still benefit from the strength and security of the network if no new participants join.

Because the network itself is a tangible resource.  Real people running software on real devices.  Ensuring that every single transaction in every last block conforms to the rules of the protocol.  All of that infrastructure exists.  And you need bitcoin (the currency/asset) to benefit from Bitcoin (the network).  The value is real and it's only the willfully ignorant who are unable to see it.

[PrivacyG]

From bitcoin, no one can benefit given this is just a name invented by Satoshi. It's assets from what people benefit. From debt they benefit when the debt is paid. From commodities when they are built into products or utilized as energy. From capital/equity when it is used to produce goods and services. From real estate people benefit by having a place to live or use it as a raw land to farm. Etc. Etc. Satoshi created no asset.

Show me an asset that allows you to move value or, for your theory's sake, 'fake numbers' from me to you, which is now an event verifiable by anyone willing to verify its legitimacy, in a fully decentralized, transparent and uncensored way.

As for the evidence, the whole OP is the evidence.

All I see is a theory.  No proof of anything you say.

From the Satoshi's number you can benefit like in every scam - only if new investors voluntarily enter the system. 

Tell me more about it.  How do I benefit from your entrance in the system?

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Regards,
PrivacyG

[BlackHatCoiner]

Ultimately, in all schemes where no resources exist and the investors are able to benefit only through resources contributed from new investors, the victims are those who stay the longest in the scheme.

But, you're the only one who sees no resources. You've limited yourself purposefully. I use bitcoin everyday. I purchase stuff with bitcoin; gift cards, servers, other web services, premium features etc., no matter what you think of it, I show you the exact opposite with my actions. And it's not just me. There are thousands of merchants willing to accept it as a currency. All these things demonstrate how incorrect you are.

And that's because it's useful. It provides things you can't otherwise have.

Tell me more about it.  How do I benefit from your entrance in the system?

Don't do him good, that's a meat and drink for him. The moment you enter, demand rises, but supply remains the same.

[arcmetal]

the victims are those that stay the longest in the scheme.

That doesn't sound right either.  I've been in since 2013 and I'm doing just fine, thanks.  And the people who got in before I did are doing even better.   That's the complete and total opposite of what you're suggesting.  It's been an incredibly shrewd investment for those who had the sense to get in early and also had the fortitude to stick around this long.

Do you deliberately make your posts sound as though you haven't got the slightest clue what you're talking about?  Or does it just come naturally?  

Do you have problems with understanding the word: 'ultimately"? Ultimately, in all schemes where no resources exist and the investors are able to benefit only through resources contributed from new investors, the victims are those who stay the longest in the scheme. That is by definition. The so called bitcoin holders, own no resources in the scheme, from which they could benefit within the scheme. So, ultimately they will be left holding the bag.

I have stayed a long time, I think, since around 2011, and I don't feel bad about the bag I am holding.  It does rather well for me. I suspect it'll keep doing well for me. ...  The "resource" that you think does not exist, and that appears to elude and confound you is of bitcoin's "utility". 

Here are some examples:

I have noticed how well others have done with their "bags", and here I mean the people on the bitcoin beach, in El Salvador, or the people in Venezuela, and how it has helped them survive the crushing inflation of their Bolivar.  Or maybe for all of those that were paying high fees for remittances, that can now send bitcoin for pennies, or for a dollar depending on the fee. ... I even heard once that someone (laszlo on May 22, 2010) was able to get a couple of pizzas for some bitcoin.  ... The list of these types of examples, of bitcoin's "utility", of how bitcoin is helping, appears to be growing all the time.

I can tell that you have upgraded your arguments since the last time you were posting here, but these are still falling flat.

It now seems that your catchphrase is that bitcoin is a "scam", but repeating this over and over without a realistic explanation is not going to convince anyone here.

[Snowshow]

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All four of you are making one critical error in your reasoning. Namely you falsely assume that you benefit from the units of Satoshi's imagined number (21 million") that you call "bitcoin". But, you don't benefit from those. Nobody is able to benefit from them. You benefit from the economic resources that new investors are bringing into the scheme. Economic resource are things from which people can benefit without new investors. For e g. - gift cards. When issued and sold to people, gift cards provide benefit to people at redemption. So, whoever holds a gift card is not required to find a new buyer to benefit from the card. Another example. Debt in the banking system that the holders of banknotes or deposits own. They benefit when that debt is paid, as I already explained in this topic. So again, they don't need to find new buyers to benefit. Capital. From capital people benefit because capital produces goods and services. Again, no new buyers required. Products and raw materials. From them people benefit through consumption or building them into final products. And again, no new buyers, that is, investors, are required. That is what economic resources are. They are things that provide benefit to people without the need of new investors.

However, from the Satoshi's units attributed to online addresses, no one can benefit. Which is why the influx of new investors is needed. Just like in all investment scams. So, try to accept that Satoshi's tricked you, instead of trying to find countless excuses for his scheme.

[BlackHatCoiner]

But, you don't benefit from those. Nobody is able to benefit from them. You benefit from the economic resources that new investors are bringing into the scheme.

Why isn't this true for fiat currency, again?

[DooMAD]

All four of you are making one critical error in your reasoning. Namely you falsely assume that you benefit from the units of Satoshi's imagined number (21 million") that you call "bitcoin". But, you don't benefit from those. Nobody is able to benefit from them.

Except for the part where that's complete and utter horseshit and the real and tangible benefits we have all experienced have been explained to you.  You're just an ignorant fuckwit with zero comprehension.  We tell you repeatedly what the benefits are, yet you simply ignore us and repeat your nonsense claims that it's all entirely fictional because you're too gormless to understand it correctly.

You are the one who has been tricked because you want to defend the system where just about every nation on Earth right now is experiencing massive inflation because the people in charge cannot be trusted to maintain the economy responsibly.  You are the one who is entirely beholden to the decisions made by central banks and governments.  You have no control over your environment.

We are the ones who have made an informed decision to try an alternative to that.  We can opt in or out as we please.  We are in control of our money and, more crucially, we're collectively responsible for our monetary policy.  If we don't like the rules in Bitcoin, we even have the power to fork ourselves off the network and start a brand new currency of our own.  You couldn't dream of having power like that in fiat.  And, once again, some of us are quite happy with our choices, thank you.

You might fool a few gullible newbies, but you're not fooling us.

[PrivacyG]

You benefit from the economic resources that new investors are bringing into the scheme.

Products and raw materials. From them people benefit through consumption or building them into final products. And again, no new buyers, that is, investors, are required. That is what economic resources are. They are things that provide benefit to people without the need of new investors.

At this point I think you are trolling.

Let us say I bought an entire Bitcoin, in a Peer to Peer manner.  I gave them cash, they gave me Bitcoin.  Why have I been fooled?

Let us say I sold an entire Bitcoin, in a Peer to Peer manner.  They gave me cash, I gave them Bitcoin.  Why have they been fooled?

Now onto the second quote.  You are telling me purchasing a piece of metal from a hardware store is a scam because they swapped Dollars for that piece of metal and now they can only benefit from it by finding a new investor.  What the heck?

You can purchase a TON of goods DIRECTLY using Bitcoin.  The company accepts Bitcoin, you get the goods.  Corporations did this a while ago, some of them still do it.  Steam did it.  Microsoft did it.  eBay is looking forward to doing it.  These are all just names out of my short memory, there are many more.  Look at El Salvador and tell me how this is a scam?

If I purchase a t-shirt off eBay using Bitcoin DIRECTLY, where is this 'investor that needs to exist for me to benefit off my Bitcoin'?  Answer is nowhere because, as I keep repeating, this is all just a fantasy of yours and nothing more.

In this situation, most antrepreneurs are scammers.  The local grocery store is scamming you because they can only benefit off their food by finding victims who voluntarily purchase from their store.

Admit it.  Your conspiracy theory is very flawed.

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Regards,
PrivacyG

[Snowshow]

But, you don't benefit from those. Nobody is able to benefit from them. You benefit from the economic resources that new investors are bringing into the scheme.

Why isn't this true for fiat currency, again?

It is explained to you a dozen times already in this and previous topic. I won't repeat it again. You are free to think whatever you want.

All four of you are making one critical error in your reasoning. Namely you falsely assume that you benefit from the units of Satoshi's imagined number (21 million") that you call "bitcoin". But, you don't benefit from those. Nobody is able to benefit from them.

Except for the part where that's complete and utter horseshit and the real and tangible benefits we have all experienced have been explained to you.  You're just an ignorant fuckwit with zero comprehension.  We tell you repeatedly what the benefits are, yet you simply ignore us and repeat your nonsense claims that it's all entirely fictional because you're too gormless to understand it correctly.

You are the one who has been tricked because you want to defend the system where just about every nation on Earth right now is experiencing massive inflation because the people in charge cannot be trusted to maintain the economy responsibly.  You are the one who is entirely beholden to the decisions made by central banks and governments.  You have no control over your environment.

We are the ones who have made an informed decision to try an alternative to that.  We can opt in or out as we please.  We are in control of our money and, more crucially, we're collectively responsible for our monetary policy.  If we don't like the rules in Bitcoin, we even have the power to fork ourselves off the network and start a brand new currency of our own.  You couldn't dream of having power like that in fiat.  And, once again, some of us are quite happy with our choices, thank you.

You might fool a few gullible newbies, but you're not fooling us.

You are fooling yourself. That's why you are so pissed off. You know that you invested economic resources into the scheme, and no such resources exist in the scheme. That's why you desperately need new investors otherwise you are unable to benefit. And that's what pisses you off.