I found a paper wallet on a beach ... seriously

[dkbit98]

Hehe. Then Exchanges own many coins because users don't have private keys   . They only have email and passwords.
It's unethical for exchanges to steal users' coins.

Spot on, and question is do we really own fiat money on our accounts or bank is the real owner.
Do we own a house or government/state is the real owner, and I can think of many examples like this.

I don't see the difference whatsoever. Whether you find a paper wallet or whether you break in to an electronic device to access the wallet, you are stealing money which is not yours. What about if you accidentally stumble across someone's seed phrase back up? I would suspect that most people would view that as outright theft. How is that any different from stumbling across a paper wallet?

Than judging by your definition we should not have word FOUND at all in dictionary, and it should be replaced with STOLEN.  
So anything people found down the road, on land and everywhere was stolen, and nobody found anything.
I mean you can think whatever you want, fact is there is clear difference between stealing and finding something.
That doesn't mean I would took any money from a wallet I found that have ID card, and I would do my best to find original owner and return this to him.
I guess in this twisted world government extortion taxation is not stealing, but founding something is stealing.... years of brainwashing education ''worked''  

[1714101371]

1714101371

[AnotherAlt]

Hehe. Then Exchanges own many coins because users don't have private keys   . They only have email and passwords.
It's unethical for exchanges to steal users' coins.

Spot on, and the question is do we own fiat money on our accounts or bank is the real owner?
Do we own a house or government/state is the real owner, and I can think of many examples like this?

About fiat money and bank accounts, That's a serious question. You are the owner of that money on a piece of paper. Bank/Gov can control your money. Here Bitcoin can resolve the problem. Satoshi created Bitcoin to resolve this problem over a decade ago.  I believe he was kind of successful. Slowly but surely the whole world people's will understand the importance of Bitcoin and its facility. Also, limited knowledge can Fu*k up too. If they own Bitcoin on an exchange, it's like you own Fiat on a Bank. Similar issues.

To newbies; Do not hold your balance on exchanges. Keep them in your wallet.

About many other examples, You are right. We will need a separate thread to discuss this.

[DireWolfM14]

~

There's obviously a difference between finding something and stealing something.  But there're considerations that should be accounted for regarding the particular item found.  If I find a brick of gold that had been buried on my property which I've owned for many years, I'd consider that brick of gold mine, all mine.  But if instead, I found a piece of paper with a bank account number, username, and password, I would shred it.  There's obviously a difference between those items.

Of course I understand there's also a difference between blockchain and bank accounts, but in this case it's impossible to know whether the owner has a back up or not.  Assuming failure of any attempt to inform the owner of the breach, I'm of the opinion that the ethical thing to do is assume the owner does indeed have a backup, and leave the funds untouched.

Now having said that; I understand there's little overlap in mathematics and ethics, and I value the freedom blockchain has given us to choose.  But, that's freedom for you.  We all get the opportunity to choose how we behave, and the right choice isn't always clear.

[Maidak]

I know how this sounds,.. but I swear it's true... I saw and picked up what I thought was an odd looking piece of card in a dbl sealed plastic pocket whilst walking my dogs! The card inside was wet but legible and after drying it out I discovered it was a paper wallet (I have no idea about bitcoin or wallets aside from what I have discovered over last 24hrs,... which has led me here).
The paper wallet has 0.6 BTC. Some strange things have been known to wash up on this beach.  I suspect it was stolen and dumped by an ignorant burglar. It's there any way to identify from whom it came so I can return it? It seems pointless handing it into the police if they'll just destroy it....
I am in Victoria, Australia.
Thx

oh wow get the hell out of here... hahah post the public key address on it. An then you can cross reference it on bitcoin-otc.com possibly or just google the public key. See what pops up

[easternklaas]

easternklaas hasn't written anything for a few days, but I am sure he/she is still checking this thread. @easternklaas can you tell us what is written on it besides the keys? You mentioned a logo and a website. Share some more info about it.

Respectfully, I'm not overly keen to divulge any additional info regarding my discovery than I already have. I have identified someone locally with the skills to search on my behalf for the original owner of the paper wallet.  I'll update when I know more.

[o_e_l_e_o]

I mean you can think whatever you want, fact is there is clear difference between stealing and finding something.

There is a clear difference between stealing and finding something which you then give back to its rightful owner. There is much less of a difference between stealing and finding something which you then keep for yourself, despite it not belonging to you.

I am curious if you would be fine with someone emptying all your wallets if they accidentally found your seed phrase back up (ignore for the sake of this example any passphrases, multi-sig, etc.) How would that be any different to OP emptying this paper wallet that he found?

Respectfully, I'm not overly keen to divulge any additional info regarding my discovery than I already have. I have identified someone locally with the skills to search on my behalf for the original owner of the paper wallet.  I'll update when I know more.

And respectfully, given that by your own admission you know very little about bitcoin but have now been convinced to start handing over data privately to a single individual, there is a high chance here that this individual will attempt to steal the contents of the wallet for themselves.

[Pmalek]

What also the OP never said is if there is even a valid private key on there.

OP can't know if the private key is valid without trying to import it into a wallet, which he shouldn't do because he would be compromising the security of the coins. He could try to sign a message with the keys but that would again require that he plays around with the private key. Better not do any of that.

Than judging by your definition we should not have word FOUND at all in dictionary, and it should be replaced with STOLEN.  

You are being very weird about your definition of finding. You can find a mushroom in the forest and take it and probably no one would care. You can't find a bike leaning on a tree or a wall and say I found it so it's now mine. I didn't steal it from anyone, it was just there when I was walking by. Finding and not taking it or not keeping it for yourself is totally different from finding and stealing an item. 

Respectfully, I'm not overly keen to divulge any additional info regarding my discovery than I already have. I have identified someone locally with the skills to search on my behalf for the original owner of the paper wallet.  I'll update when I know more.

I can only agree with what o_e_l_e_o said. Without knowing much about Bitcoin, why do you think you have the skills, knowledge, or experience to identify the right person that can help you in your quest?

[easternklaas]

And respectfully, given that by your own admission you know very little about bitcoin but have now been convinced to start handing over data privately to a single individual, there is a high chance here that this individual will attempt to steal the contents of the wallet for themselves.

I guess that's entirely possible. I think I have done due diligence to ensure that doesn't happen.
I'll let you know.

[o_e_l_e_o]

I guess that's entirely possible. I think I have done due diligence to ensure that doesn't happen.
I'll let you know.

I don't understand why you don't just share the address here, since that remains by far the most likely route to letting the owner of the coins track you down, far more likely than anything which will be achieved by blockchain analysis by this local individual.

We obviously can't force you to do anything, but be aware that if this person asks for anything about the private key, then they are trying to scam you/steal the coins. There is absolutely no reason whatsoever for them to require any information about the private key, and knowledge of the private key does not allow them to do any kind of blockchain analysis or investigation beyond that which can be done from knowledge of just the address.

[n0nce]

Than judging by your definition we should not have word FOUND at all in dictionary, and it should be replaced with STOLEN. 

You are being very weird about your definition of finding. You can find a mushroom in the forest and take it and probably no one would care. You can't find a bike leaning on a tree or a wall and say I found it so it's now mine. I didn't steal it from anyone, it was just there when I was walking by. Finding and not taking it or not keeping it for yourself is totally different from finding and stealing an item. 

I love how this topic divolged into a discussion on the definition of stealing..

The Free Dictionary has these definitions:

steal
to take the property of another without permission: Did he steal your purse?

find
discover; come upon by chance; obtain by search or effort: find a four-leaf clover; achieve, win, earn, acquire: find an apartment

So I'm pretty confident that you can indeed find something valuable like a bike on the street, if you 'came upon it by chance', but don't necessarily have to steal it afterwards. 
Whether you are stealing it or not, then depends on what you are doing next. It is required to use some common sense; in the example above, it is clear that the bike belongs to someone, so keeping it would mean 'taking the property of another without permission' and thus be considered stealing.
If it's clear that the bike is somewhere the original owner intends and expects it to be, leave it where it is. If it's clear that it was lost or stolen, probably bring it to some lost-and-found office.

Taking a mushroom from the forest would most probably be considered stealing, indeed. Even though nobody cares about it, that mushroom does belong to someone and does have some value, so after finding it, by taking it home, you stole it.

This doesn't mean that as dkbit98 put it, finding becomes synonymous with stealing.
[1] Finding doesn't imply you keep it (you could return it, for example).
[2] You can also find your own stuff, which obviously would not be stealing.
[3] You could find someone else's stuff and keep it, but have their permission to do so - that would also not be considered stealing, as per the definition above.

I guess that's entirely possible. I think I have done due diligence to ensure that doesn't happen.
I'll let you know.

I don't understand why you don't just share the address here, since that remains by far the most likely route to letting the owner of the coins track you down, far more likely than anything which will be achieved by blockchain analysis by this local individual.

Maybe he doesn't trust us..

We obviously can't force you to do anything, but be aware that if this person asks for anything about the private key, then they are trying to scam you/steal the coins. There is absolutely no reason whatsoever for them to require any information about the private key, and knowledge of the private key does not allow them to do any kind of blockchain analysis or investigation beyond that which can be done from knowledge of just the address.

They would need the private key to perform some of the actions we recommended, like moving the coins out and back into the wallet with an attached note.

Best case scenario: it's a very good, extremely trustable friend that is going to help easternklaas go through one of the recommendations he got in this thread.
Worst case scenario: it's a scammer or easternklaas decided to keep the funds.
It could be anything in between, but I guess as bystanders there's not much we can do right now.

I'd like to emphasize that we could have given detailed instructions on whatever method he decided to go for; and this being a public forum, he could have held any of us accountable (at least by our forum reputation) if we publicly gave him false advice. That's the reason I'd consider instructions on the technical boards here pretty trustable.

[DireWolfM14]

I love how this topic divolged into a discussion on the definition of stealing..

It reminds me of Bill Clinton's impeachment.  What is the definition of "is?"

I guess that's entirely possible. I think I have done due diligence to ensure that doesn't happen.
I'll let you know.

I don't understand why you don't just share the address here, since that remains by far the most likely route to letting the owner of the coins track you down, far more likely than anything which will be achieved by blockchain analysis by this local individual.

Maybe he doesn't trust us..

There are lot of differing opinions shared here, and I can see how that would be overwhelming for easternklaas.  I'm not sure that posting the address is a good idea, but it would go a long way to prove that easternklaas made a good faith effort to find the original owner.  If he chooses to cash the funds after waiting some time, that could help him avoid any local legal complications.  Obviously other more private and technical methods have been suggested, but if easternklaas were to find himself in a legal pickle, would the courts and the lawyers understand those technical methods and their value in informing the owner?  It's a dilemma, to say the least.

Taking a mushroom from the forest would most probably be considered stealing, indeed. Even though nobody cares about it, that mushroom does belong to someone and does have some value, so after finding it, by taking it home, you stole it.

I think that's going to depend on jurisdiction more than anything.  I live in an area where harvesting mushrooms isn't banned, but trespassing is, of course.  As long as the property in question is public property, there are almost no restrictions.  There is a small state forest not far from me that does have restrictions on mushroom gathering, but the rule (not a law) is intended to keep that specifically delicate ecosystem in balance.

I'd like to emphasize that we could have given detailed instructions on whatever method he decided to go for; and this being a public forum, he could have held any of us accountable (at least by our forum reputation) if we publicly gave him false advice. That's the reason I'd consider instructions on the technical boards here pretty trustable.

I tend to agree with this.  As long as everything is kept out in the open, things tend to go smoothly.  Any private communication can go sideways in a hurry.

This topic has turned into an interesting study of human behavior.  It reminds me of an incident that also unfolded on a public forum many years ago;  On a firearms related forum that I frequent someone posted photos of an M14 rifle that he was considering buying, and wanted the opinion of forum members about the value of the gun vs. it's asking price.  The gunshop had misidentified the rifle as an M1 Carbine (a much less valuable firearm,) and it was priced way below the market value of a typical M14 clone in similar condition.  But that's not all: This was not a commercial, semi-automatic clone version.  It was an absolutely invaluable, 100% real government issued M14, which is a machine gun and illegal to poses.  It was not on the NFA (legal machine gun) registry, so it most certainly had "fallen off the back of a truck," (or, in other words, stolen from a government arsenal.)  The fact that it was a machine gun was plainly clear from the photos, and many forum members were able to identify the small gunshop where the photos were taken.  The responses to this post were mind-boggling; many were encouraging the OP to rush back to the gunshop and buy the rifle before someone else who had seen his post does.

Now I am a staunch defender of the 2nd amendment, and I believe that restrictions on fully automatic weapons are an infringement.  Yes, it's extreme, I know, but another extreme belief I harbor is that I am a law abiding citizen and the mere presence of a full-auto weapon won't change that.  I only bring this up to make the point that no matter what I feel about a specific law and the premise for it's existence, it is the law of the land in which I've chosen to live.

I guess that was the long way around to say that whatever direction easternklaas takes, it's only his business and the business of the legal authorities in his jurisdiction.  Once he's satisfied any legal obligations, he'll only be left to answer to any spiritual authority he subscribes to.

[dkbit98]

If I find a brick of gold that had been buried on my property which I've owned for many years, I'd consider that brick of gold mine, all mine.  But if instead, I found a piece of paper with a bank account number, username, and password, I would shred it.  There's obviously a difference between those items.

Depending on law in some countries, believe it or not, if you want gold buried in your property you are not the owner of that gold, especially if it has some history behind it (ancient gold or silver coins, etc.).
So if you want to be good little boy, you need to pay taxes on gold you found and in some cases you need to give it to state.
Let's not forget that not long time ago, US government confiscated gold from people, made it illegal and exchanged it with IOY paper.

There is a clear difference between stealing and finding something which you then give back to its rightful owner. There is much less of a difference between stealing and finding something which you then keep for yourself, despite it not belonging to you.

Again the same.... think what you want, I am not trying to change opinion of anyone.
I can even choose to create many wallets and drop them all around the world, it's my choice and freedom.
If I don't write my contact details you are free to use them, and we saw similar examples and games many time of people giving away Bitcoins.

I am curious if you would be fine with someone emptying all your wallets if they accidentally found your seed phrase back up (ignore for the sake of this example any passphrases, multi-sig, etc.) How would that be any different to OP emptying this paper wallet that he found?

I clearly said that I would return all money and contact original owner in case if I found a wallet with personal details.
In case someone finds my seed phrase I would be fine with them trying to empty and send everything, let them try.
Only person I would be angry is myself for not properly protecting it, and it's not so hard to do it with passphrases and multisig.
I guess I am just not they type of person that blames other people for everything that happens in my life.

You are being very weird about your definition of finding. You can find a mushroom in the forest and take it and probably no one would care. You can't find a bike leaning on a tree or a wall and say I found it so it's now mine. I didn't steal it from anyone, it was just there when I was walking by. Finding and not taking it or not keeping it for yourself is totally different from finding and stealing an item.

Difference is only in your mind.
There are mushrooms much more worth than a bike, I could plant White Truffle and Yartsa Gunbu that are worth a fortune...so now you stole my mushrooms in forest right?
Someone is taking your money with taxes all the time and it's perfectly fine for you, yeah I guess that's ok because it's State and Government  doing it  and you ''can't'' do anything about it

[Pmalek]

Taking a mushroom from the forest would most probably be considered stealing, indeed. Even though nobody cares about it, that mushroom does belong to someone and does have some value, so after finding it, by taking it home, you stole it.

I don't want to turn this into a mushroom discussion but I was referring to the kind of mushroom that grow by themselves if the conditions are right. Hence, they don't belong to anyone if they are found on public land, not private property. Mushrooms don't have seeds, they have spores - fungal spores. When it's windy, these spores are dispersed to other areas. And if it's humid and wet enough, you could end up with mushrooms in your garden without wanting them. Anyways, enough with the mushrooms. 

[o_e_l_e_o]

I can even choose to create many wallets and drop them all around the world, it's my choice and freedom.

And I'm sure if you did that then lots of those paper wallets would be found and emptied of all their funds. That doesn't make it any less morally wrong for someone to empty a random wallet they find, unless you leave specific instructions on the wallet that you are giving permission to whoever finds it to empty that wallet.

I guess I am just not they type of person that blames other people for everything that happens in my life.

If a burglar breaks in to my house and steals everything I own, it doesn't matter whether I blame them for doing it or I blame myself for not boarding up all my windows and doors. It is theft and it is morally wrong.

Someone is taking your money with taxes all the time and it's perfectly fine for you, yeah I guess that's ok because it's State and Government  doing it  and you ''can't'' do anything about it

The fact is that emptying a paper wallet which is not yours is theft. Opinions on taxation are irrelevant.

[easternklaas]

I guess that's entirely possible. I think I have done due diligence to ensure that doesn't happen.
I'll let you know.

I don't understand why you don't just share the address here, since that remains by far the most likely route to letting the owner of the coins track you down, far more likely than anything which will be achieved by blockchain analysis by this local individual.

We obviously can't force you to do anything, but be aware that if this person asks for anything about the private key, then they are trying to scam you/steal the coins. There is absolutely no reason whatsoever for them to require any information about the private key, and knowledge of the private key does not allow them to do any kind of blockchain analysis or investigation beyond that which can be done from knowledge of just the address.

Ok... so if I were to liaise with any member from btctalk who had offered information here regarding my find,.. would you be the most trustworthy and be able to resolve this in the most morally appropriate manner? If not.. who? I am happy to offer up any finders fee the actual owner proposes.. if any? Would other members agree that you were the most trustworthy? Genuine question.. if plan a falls through.. who do you all recommend here is most trustworthy? Is it based on merit points?

[LoyceV]

Ok... so if I were to liaise with any member from btctalk who had offered information here regarding my find,.. would you be the most trustworthy and be able to resolve this in the most morally appropriate manner? If not.. who? I am happy to offer up any finders fee the actual owner proposes.. if any? Would other members agree that you were the most trustworthy? Genuine question.. if plan a falls through.. who do you all recommend here is most trustworthy? Is it based on merit points?

I think you misunderstood o_e_l_e_o: you don't have to (and shouldn't!) trust anyone. There's no need to share the private key (really, don't do that!), but you can post the address here. Make sure you don't confuse the address with the private key though.

Other than that, I don't think anyone here can help you to find the owner. It's up to the owner to find you, so after posting it basically relies on search engines.

[o_e_l_e_o]

Ok... so if I were to liaise with any member from btctalk who had offered information here regarding my find,.. would you be the most trustworthy and be able to resolve this in the most morally appropriate manner? If not.. who?

No one. There is no requirement for this to be done in secret, and indeed, doing it in secret makes it less likely the real owner will find you. The chances of someone tracking down the real owner via blockchain analysis is much smaller than the chance of the real owner finding you after you publish the address in a public forum such as this one.

I've had many users over the years contact me privately after I helped them out in a thread, asking for more advice or even offering to share things like scrambled seed phrases or partial private keys asking me to help them brute force them. My response is always the same - far better for both parties to keep the discussions public, so the other party can get opinions from other forum users on the things I tell them and can verify I'm not trying to scam, and so that I cannot be accused of scamming them in private.

Sharing the address does not allow anyone else to attempt to steal the coins, so you should start there. If you want to proceed to creating an OP_RETURN output as has been suggested in this thread, then I or someone else can create a transaction for you which can be verified by other users so all you have to do is sign it with the private key. And again, we can publicly talk you through the steps to do that. Doing all this publicly is far safer than you sharing the private key with someone on this forum, even someone well trusted.

[dkbit98]

And I'm sure if you did that then lots of those paper wallets would be found and emptied of all their funds. That doesn't make it any less morally wrong for someone to empty a random wallet they find, unless you leave specific instructions on the wallet that you are giving permission to whoever finds it to empty that wallet.

You are acting like you are morally perfect man and you didn't do anything wrong in your life, and that is ok, but I don't understand what this has to do with things mentioned before.
I never said I would empty paper wallet I found, but I have the freedom to do it or not, I don't need any law or suggestion from forum members for that.

If a burglar breaks in to my house and steals everything I own, it doesn't matter whether I blame them for doing it or I blame myself for not boarding up all my windows and doors. It is theft and it is morally wrong.

Well I guess if those burglars are government agents you would agree and say that you are guilty for whatever stupid law they invent in future.
Maybe they noticed you visited restricted website with your Tor browser and now they need to take away all your stuff.
It's perfectly legal, so I guess this is morally ok for you.

The fact is that emptying a paper wallet which is not yours is theft. Opinions on taxation are irrelevant.

There is nobody to claim ownership for that paper wallet, and for sure I wont give that paper to government criminals.
It's my own business what I will do with it next, maybe I donate all coins to charity or burn paper and destroy in forever.
btw how many things you found in your life and report it to lost & found, you sure didn't stole anything? Watched illegal movies?? Disobeyed government in any way???
It's personal thing and I don't really care what other people do in their life.

[o_e_l_e_o]

You are acting like you are morally perfect man and you didn't do anything wrong in your life, and that is ok, but I don't understand what this has to do with things mentioned before.

I have never claimed that and I would never claim that. But the fact remains that if you take bitcoin which belong to someone else, then you are stealing. I don't care if you give someone a pre-initialized hardware wallet, or you hack a software wallet, or you stumble across a paper wallet, or you find someone's seed phrase, or a newbie shares their private key online, or even if you managed to find an address collision, or you fork the protocol to seize coins which dont belong to you. Taking someone else's bitcoin is morally wrong.

I don't understand why you keep bringing up taxes and the government, as it is completely irrelevant to the discussion at hand, especially when you know very well my disdain for governments and their surveillance regimes. I have never stated that OP should hand over the wallet to his government, but taking the funds for himself is still theft.

[dkbit98]

But the fact remains that if you take bitcoin which belong to someone else, then you are stealing.

So let's say you use certain Bitcoin mixer, and you end up with my ''stolen'' coins from that paper wallet, that also makes you a criminal and a thief, right??
Since you are big anti-tainting proponent for Bitcoin it's strange that you are so much forcing that FINDING something on the ground is steeling, just because government law say it's stealing.
In some countries it's illegal to use mixers, so I don't see any difference here.

I don't understand why you keep bringing up taxes and the government, as it is completely irrelevant to the discussion at hand, especially when you know very well my disdain for governments and their surveillance regimes. I have never stated that OP should hand over the wallet to his government, but taking the funds for himself is still theft.

It's not irrelevant because they made a law saying that is illegal and they educated you about that on TV or in educational system.
I mean use common sense please, don't rewrite dictionaries.
You are mixing apples and oranges but I don't want to continue talking about it, because we have clearly opposite opinions about this.