I found a paper wallet on a beach ... seriously

[n0nce]

Forget about ethics for a while. Who should have ownership versus who does have the ownership differs. The protocol listens to the latter. And since ownership is defined by the protocol, whoever has the keys is the owner.

It's almost as if Bitcoin is designed to be electronic cash Old fashioned paper banknotes are exactly the same: you may have found it, and you may not be the owner based on ethics, but when you spend it, none of that matters to the receiver.

That's such a great way you guys put it.
I was stuck on: technically, you can spend the coins when you've got the keys, and technically, you can drive the car when you have its keys.

It's just that in the former, the protocol sees you as the owner, while in the latter case, the protocol (in this case probably just the legal system, right?) doesn't - no matter how many miles you put on that car.

[cryptosize]

Forget about ethics for a while. Who should have ownership versus who does have the ownership differs. The protocol listens to the latter. And since ownership is defined by the protocol, whoever has the keys is the owner.

It's almost as if Bitcoin is designed to be electronic cash Old fashioned paper banknotes are exactly the same: you may have found it, and you may not be the owner based on ethics, but when you spend it, none of that matters to the receiver.

That's such a great way you guys put it.
I was stuck on: technically, you can spend the coins when you've got the keys, and technically, you can drive the car when you have its keys.

It's just that in the former, the protocol sees you as the owner, while in the latter case, the protocol (in this case probably just the legal system, right?) doesn't - no matter how many miles you put on that car.

That's because there's a legal framework regarding car ownership.

Is there any legal equivalent about BTC?

Do we want legalities/regulation?

I think KYC would be nice if it was optional, not mandatory.

I don't know how many people remember this, but decades ago you could just buy a prepaid mobile SIM and immediately use it, no legalities involved.

If you lose it and someone else gets it, tough luck! That's the cost of freedom.

These days KYC is required for every prepaid SIM. If you lose it, it's easy to prove you're the owner and get it back.

And on top of that, many famous services (Google, Facebook etc.) ask for your mobile number... why is that? Well, tracking becomes easier. They can associate phone numbers with social media profiles. You gain safety, but you lose freedom.

I don't believe people should depend on anyone's "moral compass", because it's highly subjective from person to person.

If you want something objective, the rule of law would be more appropriate.

As I said, I wouldn't mind KYC if it was optional, but it's almost always mandatory.

[LoyceV]

I don't know how many people remember this, but decades ago you could just buy a prepaid mobile SIM and immediately use it, no legalities involved.

I can still do that

If you lose it and someone else gets it, tough luck! That's the cost of freedom.

They usually ask for registration, so you can get a new simcard with the same number if you lose it.

These days KYC is required for every prepaid SIM.

I've seen plans for it, but it's not enforced yet. Some countries require it though.

And on top of that, many famous services (Google, Facebook etc.) ask for your mobile number... why is that? Well, tracking becomes easier. They can associate phone numbers with social media profiles. You gain safety, but you lose freedom.

That doesn't provide safety, it increases the risk of a sim swap attack.
This is how you get safety from them:

Code:

grep facebook.com /etc/hosts
0.0.0.0 www.wwwfacebook.com
0.0.0.0 wwwfacebook.com
0.0.0.0 hacking-facebook.com
0.0.0.0 www.hacking-facebook.com
0.0.0.0 facebook.com.esa-snc.com
0.0.0.0 mailfacebook.com
0.0.0.0 m.facebook.com
0.0.0.0 pixel.facebook.com
0.0.0.0 ads.ak.facebook.com
0.0.0.0 creative.ak.facebook.com
0.0.0.0 ads.ak.facebook.com.edgesuite.net
0.0.0.0 apps.facebook.com
0.0.0.0 facebook.com
0.0.0.0 graph.facebook.com
0.0.0.0 login.facebook.com
0.0.0.0 s-static.ak.facebook.com
0.0.0.0 static.ak.connect.facebook.com
0.0.0.0 www.facebook.com
0.0.0.0 www.graph.facebook.com
0.0.0.0 www.login.facebook.com
0.0.0.0 www.s-static.ak.facebook.com
0.0.0.0 www.static.ak.connect.facebook.com
0.0.0.0 0-edge-chat.facebook.com
0.0.0.0 1-edge-chat.facebook.com
0.0.0.0 2-edge-chat.facebook.com
0.0.0.0 3-edge-chat.facebook.com
0.0.0.0 4-edge-chat.facebook.com
0.0.0.0 5-edge-chat.facebook.com
0.0.0.0 6-edge-chat.facebook.com
0.0.0.0 alpha-shv-03-ash5.facebook.com
0.0.0.0 alpha-shv-03-atn1.facebook.com
0.0.0.0 alpha-shv-03-lla1.facebook.com
0.0.0.0 alpha-shv-04-prn2.facebook.com
0.0.0.0 alpha-shv-09-frc1.facebook.com
0.0.0.0 alpha.vvv.facebook.com
0.0.0.0 a.ns.facebook.com
0.0.0.0 api.facebook.com
0.0.0.0 atlasalpha-shv-09-frc3.facebook.com
0.0.0.0 atlas.c10r.facebook.com
0.0.0.0 atlasinyour-shv-05-ash3.facebook.com
0.0.0.0 atlas-shv-01-prn2.facebook.com
0.0.0.0 atlas-shv-04-lla1.facebook.com
0.0.0.0 atlas-shv-05-ash3.facebook.com
0.0.0.0 atlas-shv-06-ash2.facebook.com
0.0.0.0 atlas-shv-06-frc1.facebook.com
0.0.0.0 atlas-shv-07-lla1.facebook.com
0.0.0.0 atlas-shv-09-frc3.facebook.com
0.0.0.0 atlas-shv-13-prn1.facebook.com
0.0.0.0 atlas-www-shv-04-prn2.facebook.com
0.0.0.0 atlas-www-shv-07-ash4.facebook.com
0.0.0.0 atlas-www-shv-09-frc1.facebook.com
0.0.0.0 aura-11-01-snc7.facebook.com
0.0.0.0 badge.facebook.com
0.0.0.0 b-api.facebook.com
0.0.0.0 beta-chat-01-05-ash3.facebook.com
0.0.0.0 betanet-shv-03-atn1.facebook.com
0.0.0.0 betanet-shv-03-lla1.facebook.com
0.0.0.0 betanet-shv-04-prn2.facebook.com
0.0.0.0 betanet-shv-09-frc1.facebook.com
0.0.0.0 beta-shv-03-atn1.facebook.com
0.0.0.0 beta-shv-03-lla1.facebook.com
0.0.0.0 beta-shv-04-prn2.facebook.com
0.0.0.0 beta-shv-09-frc1.facebook.com
0.0.0.0 beta.vvv.facebook.com
0.0.0.0 b-graph.facebook.com
0.0.0.0 bidder-shv-05-frc3.facebook.com
0.0.0.0 bidder-shv-10-frc1.facebook.com
0.0.0.0 b.ns.facebook.com
0.0.0.0 channel-proxy-shv-04-frc3.facebook.com
0.0.0.0 channel-proxy-shv-06-ash2.facebook.com
0.0.0.0 channel-proxy-shv-07-ash2.facebook.com
0.0.0.0 channel-proxy-shv-13-prn1.facebook.com
0.0.0.0 channel-proxy-test-shv-07-ash2.facebook.com
0.0.0.0 code.facebook.com
0.0.0.0 connect.facebook.com
0.0.0.0 dev.vvv.facebook.com
0.0.0.0 d.vvv.facebook.com
0.0.0.0 edge-atlas-proxyprotocol-shv-01-ash5.facebook.com
0.0.0.0 edge-atlas-proxyprotocol-shv-03-ash5.facebook.com
0.0.0.0 edge-atlas-proxyprotocol-shv-07-ash4.facebook.com
0.0.0.0 edge-atlas-proxyprotocol-shv-07-frc3.facebook.com
0.0.0.0 edge-atlas-proxyprotocol-shv-09-frc1.facebook.com
0.0.0.0 edge-atlas-proxyprotocol-shv-12-frc1.facebook.com
0.0.0.0 edge-atlas-proxyprotocol-shv-12-frc3.facebook.com
0.0.0.0 edge-atlas-proxyprotocol-shv-13-frc1.facebook.com
0.0.0.0 edge-atlas-shv-01-ams2.facebook.com
0.0.0.0 edge-atlas-shv-01-ams3.facebook.com
0.0.0.0 edge-atlas-shv-01-ash5.facebook.com
0.0.0.0 edge-atlas-shv-01-atl1.facebook.com
0.0.0.0 edge-atlas-shv-01-bru2.facebook.com
0.0.0.0 edge-atlas-shv-01-cai1.facebook.com
0.0.0.0 edge-atlas-shv-01-cdg2.facebook.com
0.0.0.0 edge-atlas-shv-01-dfw1.facebook.com
0.0.0.0 edge-atlas-shv-01-fra3.facebook.com
0.0.0.0 edge-atlas-shv-01-gru1.facebook.com
0.0.0.0 edge-atlas-shv-01-hkg2.facebook.com
0.0.0.0 edge-atlas-shv-01-iad3.facebook.com
0.0.0.0 edge-atlas-shv-01-kul1.facebook.com
0.0.0.0 edge-atlas-shv-01-lax1.facebook.com
0.0.0.0 edge-atlas-shv-01-lga1.facebook.com
0.0.0.0 edge-atlas-shv-01-lhr3.facebook.com
0.0.0.0 edge-atlas-shv-01-mad1.facebook.com
0.0.0.0 edge-atlas-shv-01-mia1.facebook.com
0.0.0.0 edge-atlas-shv-01-mxp1.facebook.com
0.0.0.0 edge-atlas-shv-01-nrt1.facebook.com
0.0.0.0 edge-atlas-shv-01-ord1.facebook.com
0.0.0.0 edge-atlas-shv-01-sea1.facebook.com
0.0.0.0 edge-atlas-shv-01-sin1.facebook.com
0.0.0.0 edge-atlas-shv-01-sjc2.facebook.com
0.0.0.0 edge-atlas-shv-01-syd1.facebook.com
0.0.0.0 edge-atlas-shv-01-vie1.facebook.com
0.0.0.0 edge-atlas-shv-02-cai1.facebook.com
0.0.0.0 edge-atlas-shv-02-hkg2.facebook.com
0.0.0.0 edge-atlas-shv-03-ash5.facebook.com
0.0.0.0 edge-atlas-shv-03-atn1.facebook.com
0.0.0.0 edge-atlas-shv-03-hkg1.facebook.com
0.0.0.0 edge-atlas-shv-03-lla1.facebook.com
0.0.0.0 edge-atlas-shv-03-prn2.facebook.com
0.0.0.0 edge-atlas-shv-03-xdc1.facebook.com
0.0.0.0 edge-atlas-shv-04-hkg1.facebook.com
0.0.0.0 edge-atlas-shv-04-prn2.facebook.com
0.0.0.0 edge-atlas-shv-06-atn1.facebook.com
0.0.0.0 edge-atlas-shv-06-lla1.facebook.com
0.0.0.0 edge-atlas-shv-07-ash4.facebook.com
0.0.0.0 edge-atlas-shv-09-frc1.facebook.com
0.0.0.0 edge-atlas-shv-09-lla1.facebook.com
0.0.0.0 edge-atlas-shv-12-frc1.facebook.com
0.0.0.0 edge-atlas-shv-12-frc3.facebook.com
0.0.0.0 edge-atlas-shv-12-lla1.facebook.com
0.0.0.0 edge-atlas-shv-12-prn1.facebook.com
0.0.0.0 edge-atlas-shv-13-frc1.facebook.com
0.0.0.0 edge-atlas-shv-17-prn1.facebook.com
0.0.0.0 edge-atlas-shv-18-prn1.facebook.com
0.0.0.0 edge-chat.facebook.com
0.0.0.0 edge-liverail-shv-01-ams2.facebook.com
0.0.0.0 edge-liverail-shv-01-ams3.facebook.com
0.0.0.0 edge-liverail-shv-01-ash5.facebook.com
0.0.0.0 edge-liverail-shv-01-atl1.facebook.com
0.0.0.0 edge-liverail-shv-01-bru2.facebook.com
0.0.0.0 edge-liverail-shv-01-cai1.facebook.com
0.0.0.0 edge-liverail-shv-01-cdg2.facebook.com
0.0.0.0 edge-liverail-shv-01-dfw1.facebook.com
0.0.0.0 edge-liverail-shv-01-fra3.facebook.com
0.0.0.0 edge-liverail-shv-01-gru1.facebook.com
0.0.0.0 edge-liverail-shv-01-hkg2.facebook.com
0.0.0.0 edge-liverail-shv-01-iad3.facebook.com
0.0.0.0 edge-liverail-shv-01-kul1.facebook.com
0.0.0.0 edge-liverail-shv-01-lax1.facebook.com
0.0.0.0 edge-liverail-shv-01-lga1.facebook.com
0.0.0.0 edge-liverail-shv-01-lhr3.facebook.com
0.0.0.0 edge-liverail-shv-01-mad1.facebook.com
0.0.0.0 edge-liverail-shv-01-mia1.facebook.com
0.0.0.0 edge-liverail-shv-01-mxp1.facebook.com
0.0.0.0 edge-liverail-shv-01-nrt1.facebook.com
0.0.0.0 edge-liverail-shv-01-ord1.facebook.com
0.0.0.0 edge-liverail-shv-01-sea1.facebook.com
0.0.0.0 edge-liverail-shv-01-sin1.facebook.com
0.0.0.0 edge-liverail-shv-01-sjc2.facebook.com
0.0.0.0 edge-liverail-shv-01-syd1.facebook.com
0.0.0.0 edge-liverail-shv-01-tpe1.facebook.com
0.0.0.0 edge-liverail-shv-01-vie1.facebook.com
0.0.0.0 edge-liverail-shv-02-cai1.facebook.com
0.0.0.0 edge-liverail-shv-02-hkg2.facebook.com
0.0.0.0 edge-liverail-shv-03-ash5.facebook.com
0.0.0.0 edge-liverail-shv-03-atn1.facebook.com
0.0.0.0 edge-liverail-shv-03-hkg1.facebook.com
0.0.0.0 edge-liverail-shv-03-lla1.facebook.com
0.0.0.0 edge-liverail-shv-03-prn2.facebook.com
0.0.0.0 edge-liverail-shv-03-xdc1.facebook.com
0.0.0.0 edge-liverail-shv-04-hkg1.facebook.com
0.0.0.0 edge-liverail-shv-04-prn2.facebook.com
0.0.0.0 edge-liverail-shv-06-atn1.facebook.com
0.0.0.0 edge-liverail-shv-06-lla1.facebook.com
0.0.0.0 edge-liverail-shv-07-ash4.facebook.com
0.0.0.0 edge-liverail-shv-07-frc3.facebook.com
0.0.0.0 edge-liverail-shv-09-frc1.facebook.com
0.0.0.0 edge-liverail-shv-09-lla1.facebook.com
0.0.0.0 edge-liverail-shv-12-frc1.facebook.com
0.0.0.0 edge-liverail-shv-12-frc3.facebook.com
0.0.0.0 edge-liverail-shv-12-lla1.facebook.com
0.0.0.0 edge-liverail-shv-12-prn1.facebook.com
0.0.0.0 edge-liverail-shv-13-frc1.facebook.com
0.0.0.0 edge-liverail-shv-17-prn1.facebook.com
0.0.0.0 edge-liverail-shv-18-prn1.facebook.com
0.0.0.0 edge-mqtt.facebook.com
0.0.0.0 edge-mqtt-shv-01-ams2.facebook.com
0.0.0.0 edge-mqtt-shv-01-ams3.facebook.com
0.0.0.0 edge-mqtt-shv-01-ash5.facebook.com
0.0.0.0 edge-mqtt-shv-01-atl1.facebook.com
0.0.0.0 edge-mqtt-shv-01-bru2.facebook.com
0.0.0.0 edge-mqtt-shv-01-cai1.facebook.com
0.0.0.0 edge-mqtt-shv-01-cdg2.facebook.com
0.0.0.0 edge-mqtt-shv-01-dfw1.facebook.com
0.0.0.0 edge-mqtt-shv-01-fra3.facebook.com
0.0.0.0 edge-mqtt-shv-01-gru1.facebook.com
0.0.0.0 edge-mqtt-shv-01-hkg2.facebook.com
0.0.0.0 edge-mqtt-shv-01-iad3.facebook.com
0.0.0.0 edge-mqtt-shv-01-kul1.facebook.com
0.0.0.0 edge-mqtt-shv-01-lax1.facebook.com
0.0.0.0 edge-mqtt-shv-01-lga1.facebook.com
0.0.0.0 edge-mqtt-shv-01-lhr3.facebook.com
0.0.0.0 edge-mqtt-shv-01-mad1.facebook.com
0.0.0.0 edge-mqtt-shv-01-mia1.facebook.com
0.0.0.0 edge-mqtt-shv-01-mxp1.facebook.com
0.0.0.0 edge-mqtt-shv-01-nrt1.facebook.com
0.0.0.0 edge-mqtt-shv-01-ord1.facebook.com
0.0.0.0 edge-mqtt-shv-01-sea1.facebook.com
0.0.0.0 edge-mqtt-shv-01-sin1.facebook.com
0.0.0.0 edge-mqtt-shv-01-sjc2.facebook.com
0.0.0.0 edge-mqtt-shv-01-syd1.facebook.com
0.0.0.0 edge-mqtt-shv-01-tpe1.facebook.com
0.0.0.0 edge-mqtt-shv-01-vie1.facebook.com
0.0.0.0 edge-mqtt-shv-02-cai1.facebook.com
0.0.0.0 edge-mqtt-shv-02-hkg2.facebook.com
0.0.0.0 edge-mqtt-shv-03-ash5.facebook.com
0.0.0.0 edge-mqtt-shv-03-atn1.facebook.com
0.0.0.0 edge-mqtt-shv-03-hkg1.facebook.com
0.0.0.0 edge-mqtt-shv-03-lla1.facebook.com
0.0.0.0 edge-mqtt-shv-03-prn2.facebook.com
0.0.0.0 edge-mqtt-shv-03-xdc1.facebook.com
0.0.0.0 edge-mqtt-shv-04-hkg1.facebook.com
0.0.0.0 edge-mqtt-shv-04-prn2.facebook.com
0.0.0.0 edge-mqtt-shv-06-atn1.facebook.com
0.0.0.0 edge-mqtt-shv-06-lla1.facebook.com
0.0.0.0 edge-mqtt-shv-07-ash4.facebook.com
0.0.0.0 edge-mqtt-shv-07-frc3.facebook.com
0.0.0.0 edge-mqtt-shv-09-lla1.facebook.com
0.0.0.0 edge-mqtt-shv-12-frc1.facebook.com
0.0.0.0 edge-mqtt-shv-12-frc3.facebook.com
0.0.0.0 edge-mqtt-shv-12-lla1.facebook.com
0.0.0.0 edge-mqtt-shv-12-prn1.facebook.com
0.0.0.0 edge-mqtt-shv-13-frc1.facebook.com
0.0.0.0 edge-mqtt-shv-17-prn1.facebook.com
0.0.0.0 edge-mqtt-shv-18-prn1.facebook.com
0.0.0.0 edgeray-origin-shv-05-prn2.facebook.com
0.0.0.0 edgeray-origin-shv-07-lla1.facebook.com
0.0.0.0 edgeray-origin-shv-09-frc3.facebook.com
0.0.0.0 edgeray-origin-shv-11-frc3.facebook.com
0.0.0.0 edgeray-shv-01-ams2.facebook.com
0.0.0.0 edgeray-shv-01-ams3.facebook.com
0.0.0.0 edgeray-shv-01-atl1.facebook.com
0.0.0.0 edgeray-shv-01-bru2.facebook.com
0.0.0.0 edgeray-shv-01-cdg2.facebook.com
0.0.0.0 edgeray-shv-01-dfw1.facebook.com
0.0.0.0 edgeray-shv-01-fra3.facebook.com
0.0.0.0 edgeray-shv-01-gru1.facebook.com
0.0.0.0 edgeray-shv-01-iad3.facebook.com
0.0.0.0 edgeray-shv-01-kul1.facebook.com
0.0.0.0 edgeray-shv-01-lax1.facebook.com
0.0.0.0 edgeray-shv-01-lga1.facebook.com
0.0.0.0 edgeray-shv-01-lhr3.facebook.com
0.0.0.0 edgeray-shv-01-mad1.facebook.com
0.0.0.0 edgeray-shv-01-mia1.facebook.com
0.0.0.0 edgeray-shv-01-mxp1.facebook.com
0.0.0.0 edgeray-shv-01-ord1.facebook.com
0.0.0.0 edgeray-shv-01-sea1.facebook.com
0.0.0.0 edgeray-shv-01-sin1.facebook.com
0.0.0.0 edgeray-shv-01-sjc2.facebook.com
0.0.0.0 edgeray-shv-01-syd1.facebook.com
0.0.0.0 edgeray-shv-01-vie1.facebook.com
0.0.0.0 edge-snaptu-http-p1-shv-01-ams3.facebook.com
0.0.0.0 edge-snaptu-http-p1-shv-01-atl1.facebook.com
0.0.0.0 edge-snaptu-http-p1-shv-01-bru2.facebook.com
0.0.0.0 edge-snaptu-http-p1-shv-01-cai1.facebook.com
0.0.0.0 edge-snaptu-http-p1-shv-01-cdg2.facebook.com
0.0.0.0 edge-snaptu-http-p1-shv-01-dfw1.facebook.com
0.0.0.0 edge-snaptu-http-p1-shv-01-fra3.facebook.com
0.0.0.0 edge-snaptu-http-p1-shv-01-gru1.facebook.com
0.0.0.0 edge-snaptu-http-p1-shv-01-iad3.facebook.com
0.0.0.0 edge-snaptu-http-p1-shv-01-kul1.facebook.com
0.0.0.0 edge-snaptu-http-p1-shv-01-lax1.facebook.com
0.0.0.0 edge-snaptu-http-p1-shv-01-lhr3.facebook.com
0.0.0.0 edge-snaptu-http-p1-shv-01-mad1.facebook.com
0.0.0.0 edge-snaptu-http-p1-shv-01-nrt1.facebook.com
0.0.0.0 edge-snaptu-http-p1-shv-01-ord1.facebook.com
0.0.0.0 edge-snaptu-http-p1-shv-01-sea1.facebook.com
0.0.0.0 edge-snaptu-http-p1-shv-01-syd1.facebook.com
0.0.0.0 edge-snaptu-http-p1-shv-02-cai1.facebook.com
0.0.0.0 edge-snaptu-tunnel-shv-01-ams3.facebook.com
0.0.0.0 edge-snaptu-tunnel-shv-01-ash5.facebook.com
0.0.0.0 edge-snaptu-tunnel-shv-01-atl1.facebook.com
0.0.0.0 edge-snaptu-tunnel-shv-01-bru2.facebook.com
0.0.0.0 edge-snaptu-tunnel-shv-01-cai1.facebook.com
0.0.0.0 edge-snaptu-tunnel-shv-01-cdg2.facebook.com
0.0.0.0 edge-snaptu-tunnel-shv-01-dfw1.facebook.com
0.0.0.0 edge-snaptu-tunnel-shv-01-fra3.facebook.com
0.0.0.0 edge-snaptu-tunnel-shv-01-gru1.facebook.com
0.0.0.0 edge-snaptu-tunnel-shv-01-hkg2.facebook.com
0.0.0.0 edge-snaptu-tunnel-shv-01-iad3.facebook.com
0.0.0.0 edge-snaptu-tunnel-shv-01-kul1.facebook.com
0.0.0.0 edge-snaptu-tunnel-shv-01-lax1.facebook.com
0.0.0.0 edge-snaptu-tunnel-shv-01-lhr3.facebook.com
0.0.0.0 edge-snaptu-tunnel-shv-01-mad1.facebook.com
0.0.0.0 edge-snaptu-tunnel-shv-01-nrt1.facebook.com
0.0.0.0 edge-snaptu-tunnel-shv-01-ord1.facebook.com
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0.0.0.0 edge-snaptu-tunnel-shv-02-cai1.facebook.com
0.0.0.0 edge-star-shv-12-frc3.facebook.com
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0.0.0.0 l.facebook.com
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0.0.0.0 mqtt.c10r.facebook.com
0.0.0.0 mqtt.vvv.facebook.com
0.0.0.0 pixel.facebook.com
0.0.0.0 profile.ak.facebook.com.edgesuite.net
0.0.0.0 research.facebook.com
0.0.0.0 snaptu-d-shv-05-frc3.facebook.com
0.0.0.0 snaptu-d-shv-10-frc1.facebook.com
0.0.0.0 s-static.ak.facebook.com.edgekey.net
0.0.0.0 star.c10r.facebook.com
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0.0.0.0 static.ak.facebook.com
0.0.0.0 static.ak.facebook.com.edgesuite.net
0.0.0.0 staticxx.facebook.com
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0.0.0.0 z-m.c10r.facebook.com
0.0.0.0 z-m.facebook.com

I'll stop going off-topic now

I don't believe people should depend on anyone's "moral compass", because it's highly subjective from person to person.

If you want something objective, the rule of law would be more appropriate.

That's the thing: both morals as well as laws vary depending on culture and country. If I find €1, I keep it. It's not possible to find the person who lost it, nor is it worth the effort. If I find $1,000,000, I would assume it's criminal money and wouldn't want to become a target. Even turning it into the police could be a risk. Leaving it doesn't feel right either. So I'm glad I've never had to make that decision
If I find a wallet with anything identifiable, I'll track down the owner. The same with finding a phone. And amazingly, I've found several wallets and phones! People apparently easily lose them.
I've never found a Bitcoin paper wallet. I think I'd report it to the police, while keeping it myself (assuming I'm right that that's actually allowed), and if the owner doesn't claim it within a year (again: assuming I'm right on that), it'll be legally mine. The interesting part is that it may still not be morally right though.

[o_e_l_e_o]

I mean yes, obviously if you are in possession of a private key then you have the ability to move and spend the relevant coins. But that does not make you the original owner of those coins nor does it change that what you are doing is theft.

I am reminded here of the conversations about known fraud CSW not signing a message from the genesis block coinbase address. Obviously he can't because he is not Satoshi, but even if he could, such a message would only prove ownership of that key and would not prove he was Satoshi. Such a signed message is a necessary minimum to even start the conversation, but it is not proof of identity on its own.

For the record, I am firmly against any KYC for addresses or other such nonsense to prove ownership as has been mentioned in this thread. OP owns the private key and so can now take the coins if he choose. There should be nothing at a technical level to stop that from happening, but I am still of the opinion that doing so is theft.

[Pmalek]

Forget about ethics for a while. Who should have ownership versus who does have the ownership differs. The protocol listens to the latter. And since ownership is defined by the protocol, whoever has the keys is the owner.

That just sounds like a poor excuse to take someone else's coins. You might not do it personally if you had the chance, but you seem to be justifying such actions. It doesn't matter what the protocol allows you to do, don't do it because it's the wrong thing to do. We are not robots. We are human begins capable of making the right or the wrong decisions. Taking or spending someone else's bitcoin isn't the right one no matter what network features allow you to do.

If I know your credit card number and the CVV number at the back, I have what I need on a protocol level to use your card for online purchases. Doing that makes me a thief though.

That's because there's a legal framework regarding car ownership.

Is there any legal equivalent about BTC?

You need a law to tell you what's right from wrong? You need a religious book or a preacher to understand what's the moral thing to do? Can't we figure out those things ourselves?

[o_e_l_e_o]

Taking or spending someone else's bitcoin isn't the right one no matter what network features allow you to do.

This. What the protocol allows you to do is not a moral guide. You can spam people with dust outputs, you can bloat the UTXO set with unspendable outputs, and you can store arbitrary data on the blockchain. You can run a centralized service which blacklists certain outputs or overpays transaction fees by 100x. And you can steal someone else's bitcoin by finding their private key. The protocol is neither a legal nor moral authority, and just because you can does not mean you should.

[cryptosize]

You need a law to tell you what's right from wrong? You need a religious book or a preacher to understand what's the moral thing to do? Can't we figure out those things ourselves?

There are 8 billion people on the planet, with 8 billion different ethics codes. That's why I'm saying it's highly subjective.

We're not predictable robots, we're unpredictable beings. You cannot enforce ethics on everyone, no matter how much you try to use guilt or shame for manipulation.

That's why objective laws exist and they're above the subjectivity of anyone's moral compass.

Regarding religions, I don't like them one bit. I told you that "holier than thou" debates are not my thing.

I mean come on, if human beings were dependable and ethical, we wouldn't even need Bitcoin in the first place.

In an ideal world where everyone is predictable and ethical, we could just have a Notepad txt file to exchange value.

[Charles-Tim]

Taking or spending someone else's bitcoin isn't the right one no matter what network features allow you to do.

Bitcoin give full control, you can have full control with extra protection. If someone wants to generate a paper wallet, he can encrypt it with BIP38 passphrase and have more than one backup separately, also separate backup for both private key and passphrase. That is what full control is, comes with sole protection. In case of one lost backup, the others can be used for recovery. I know you know this.

We can all come out good in the public, but no one can know the realities within individuals, implying that having possession of a misplaced paper wallet is not morally right does not mean those that said it is not right can not even steal it (I do not referring to o_e_l_e_o or you, but you understand what I mean). People think differently, as you are implying it is not morally right, some people will call it God's blessing and opportunity, especially if the founder is poor and suffering from poverty.

We all know this too, looking for full control comes with full responsibility.

[Pmalek]

People think differently, as you are implying it is not morally right, some people will call it God's blessing and opportunity, especially if the founder is poor and suffering from poverty.

Here is another point of view for those who are religious. If you believe in God's plan, maybe his plan for some people are too be poor and coming across money, or in this case a paper wallet, is his way of testing your faith and honesty. Making it yours might not be what he envisioned for you. I will end my religious preaching now.

[BlackHatCoiner]

Such a signed message is a necessary minimum to even start the conversation, but it is not proof of identity on its own.

And it'll be even less valid proof overtime, especially when someone accomplishes to solve the ECDLP and have Satoshi's public key reversed. At some point in the future, even his PGP key might become useless to have, in case that cryptography is also broken, and make it (finally) impossible to have a proof of identity for that person.

There should be nothing at a technical level to stop that from happening, but I am still of the opinion that doing so is theft.

What I'm arguing is that there should be nothing at a legal level to stop that neither, unless there a way for the original owner to provide a zero knowledge proof. You can't sue someone for picking up physical cash that isn't theirs, but you can sue them for picking up electronic cash that isn't theirs?

If I know your credit card number

Woah, I'll stop you right there. Credit card ownership isn't granted from a CVV number, but from an entire legal framework, wherein I'm legally in possession of that money according to the credit card company. The card's pin is only used to authenticate this ownership.

There are 8 billion people on the planet, with 8 billion different ethics codes. That's why I'm saying it's highly subjective

Recent event from the USA: Tornado Cash mixer's developers arrested, because... Apparently it's immoral, and therefore illegal, for some people to let some individuals protect their privacy, when a part of those uses it to launder money. Should I feel immoral for wearing this signature? Hell no. Quite the opposite.

[Pmalek]

Woah, I'll stop you right there. Credit card ownership isn't granted from a CVV number, but from an entire legal framework, wherein I'm legally in possession of that money according to the credit card company.

I know it isn't. I was just saying that if I had that information, I would have the essentials to spend the money on the card no matter what the legal framework is.

It's rather simple with Bitcoin if we want to make it simple.
Did I fund that address on paper or did someone fund it for me (as a gift, for example)? If YES - the money is mine, if NO - it isn't.   

[o_e_l_e_o]

You can't sue someone for picking up physical cash that isn't theirs, but you can sue them for picking up electronic cash that isn't theirs?

I obviously can't speak for every country, but most (all?) states in the US can charge you with theft if you find and keep a significant amount of cash or anything of value and make no attempt to return it to the true owner or hand it over to law enforcement. This has never been tested against finding a paper wallet as far as I am aware, but I would suspect it would be a similar situation given that a paper wallet is obviously valuable. However, a paper wallet here is unique in that the contents could be stolen by anyone who sees the wallet at a later time and without leaving a trace, which will generally not be possible with cash which is handed over.

I still think the best thing for OP to do is simply post the address so the true owner can try to find him. For all we know they are hunting frantically for any mention of this address online.

[hZti]

I still think the best thing for OP to do is simply post the address so the true owner can try to find him. For all we know they are hunting frantically for any mention of this address online.

If if this would be true in the US there is always two sides in law. The law theory and the law in everyday live. If the law in your everyday live is the same as the law in theory, depends mostly if the law in theory can be enforced. This would be the problem here, since bitcoin is anonymous or at least pseudonymous. So in this case there may be the theoretical law in the US that you can not keep the funds, but in practice there would be nothing that would you stop from doing so.

[o_e_l_e_o]

So in this case there may be the theoretical law in the US that you can not keep the funds, but in practice there would be nothing that would you stop from doing so.

I don't disagree. If someone was to find one of my paper wallets, or stumble across one of my seed phrase back ups, or if I left a hot wallet unlocked in public, then I fully expect that all those coins would be stolen, that there would be nothing I could do about it, and that law enforcement either wouldn't care or would be unable to track the person down.

But that doesn't change that the act of stealing my coins is still morally wrong.

[hZti]

But that doesn't change that the act of stealing my coins is still morally wrong.

That is true and I would totally agree that the coins should be sent back to the original owner if he can found and proof he is the owner. Since there are so many informations already in the thread I think to many people could fake that they are the owner already. IF the OP doesn't want to keep the coins there is for example this: https://www.savethechildren.org/us/ways-to-help/ways-to-give/ways-to-help/cryptocurrency-donation

[BlackHatCoiner]

IF the OP doesn't want to keep the coins there is for example this: https://www.savethechildren.org/us/ways-to-help/ways-to-give/ways-to-help/cryptocurrency-donation

Half of the thread's discussion is about if keeping it for yourself or spending it for something else is morally fine, when you don't know if the owner still have access to that money. Not spending the bitcoin might be morally incorrect as well, because it could be used to something that's morally correct.

As said by Welsh, it's some sort of moral dilemma similar to the train tracks. Spending money that isn't yours, ethics asides, is theft; I don't believe anyone disagrees with this.

[cryptosize]

Spending money that isn't yours, ethics asides, is theft; I don't believe anyone disagrees with this.

Therefore taxation is theft!

[Welsh]

I would take the piece of paper, but I would not take or move the coins. I know that my intentions aren't bad and I am OK taking it. I can't say the same thing about the next person that walks down the same path on the beach I did. I would then do all I can to find the wallet's owner, but even if I failed I wouldn't move the coins or consider them to be mine. I wouldn't give the paper wallet to the police. I have seen their competence when a friend of mine had his wallet stolen. Someone found it empty of all money and returned it to the nearest police station. The rest of their procedure is a joke I am not going to get into right now.

It's why I gave a few possibilities, by removing that piece of paper or whatever the deemed backup is, you could potentially be making it impossible for the original user to recover it. However, as you rightly said, that wallet could've come from miles away since the tides could be covering it. I'm kind of glad that this discussion came up, since the beach provides certain moral decisions, which aren't easy to make, as there seems to be a scope of consequences whatever you might decide to do, hence why I compared it to the train tracks, where doing nothing also presents a problem.

One thing for sure is, you know your intentions, but while those intentions might be good, removing that wallet could potentially hinder the recovery of it. It's a bit like the butterfly effect where your decisions can alter things, that you weren't planning on altering.

[easternklaas]

One thing for sure is, you know your intentions, but while those intentions might be good, removing that wallet could potentially hinder the recovery of it. It's a bit like the butterfly effect where your decisions can alter things, that you weren't planning on altering.

Hey thank you all, I really apreciate ALL the advice, feedback and banter this discovery has generated. After much consideration, I have decided to do precisely nothing at all with the paper wallet, except to slip it inside the back cover of my favourite book 'Shantaram' by Gregory David Roberts.  There it will stay. I hope the original owner has the ability to remove their coins. I'll rediscover the wallet if/when the universe wants me to, but for now I'm just going to leave it there. If you ever see the book Shantaram at a yard sale or deceased estate,.. flip through to the last few pages,.... you never know..

[Pmalek]

I am just curious, and I can see that some other members are as well, what is your reasoning against posting the bitcoin address here? The string that begins with either "1", "3" or "bc1". Bitcoin addresses are public information. You can find all of them on any block explorer.