Anyone here from Germany? What exactly are your electricity costs?

[adaseb]

For the past few months I’ve been seeing charts and posts about electricity in Germany being extremely expensive. Today I read an article it’s more than 10x expensive than it was between 2010-2020. This can’t be true.

Can someone who lives there verify this?

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[stompix]

For the past few months I’ve been seeing charts and posts about electricity in Germany being extremely expensive. Today I read an article it’s more than 10x expensive than it was between 2010-2020. This can’t be true.

The first part is true, Germany has had the most expensive energy in Europe for a decade and it has some outrageous prices now, but the second part is not true, prices haven't gone up by 10x.

Just one quick look at the offers on the market and you can see that they haven't gone up anywhere close to that.
One of the most expensive ones, like E.ON is offering 56,35 ct/kWh for new clients, guarantee tariff till 8.2023


But there are "cheaper" alternatives, you can compare prices here.

That being said, nobody in Germany has seen 5cents per kWh this century, from the bills I have from one friend since I had this discussion before the used to pay 26 cents per kWh during 2019, now he is on 47 cents. Still expensive but no way near 10x.

[Sithara007]

^^^ I was trying to convert it to my local currency and €0.5635 per Kwh translates to ₹45 per Kwh. For me it sounds outrageous. I am paying around ₹7 per Kwh (and it is higher than what most of the others pay in India, ranges from ₹3 to ₹8 per Kwh). From what I have heard, the electricity prices are much lower in other EU nations. In Hungary, they pay around €0.10 per Kwh. In non-EU countries, it is even lower. In Serbia it is around $0.09 per KWh. For Turkey, it is much lower, at $0.05 per Kwh (cheaper than India).

[Don Pedro Dinero]

That being said, nobody in Germany has seen 5cents per kWh this century, from the bills I have from one friend since I had this discussion before the used to pay 26 cents per kWh during 2019, now he is on 47 cents. Still expensive but no way near 10x.

I don't know very well the details of how the energy industry works, but I can't quite explain those prices, being the average price in Spain 0,2460 €/kWh nowadays (The link I have provided gives data from the end of May. At the moment it is a bit more expensive but nowhere near 47 cents).

I say this because Spain doesn't have oil either, it only has 5 nuclear power plants, it hardly burns coal to generate electricity. Except for the gas it receives from Algeria I don't understand how it can be so much cheaper than Germany.

[stompix]

^^^ I was trying to convert it to my local currency and €0.5635 per Kwh translates to ₹45 per Kwh. For me it sounds outrageous. I am paying around ₹7 per Kwh (and it is higher than what most of the others pay in India, ranges from ₹3 to ₹8 per Kwh).

And what's the minimum wage in India and how does it compare to the 12 euros per hour minimum in Germany?

It's a German thing and has been like so for a decade, despite your endless claims about cheap energy that did bla bla since Ostpolitik (you really love that word, don't you?)  that gave all that misterious advantage for German's economy, the prices for electricity in Germany have always been atrocious. Same as gasoline price, around 1.5 euros since 2003-2004, E10 is currently 1.77/liter. Even diesel that is by default more expensive was 1.42 12 months ago and is 1.82 now in full economic doom and gloom, Germany will freeze to death, run for the hills, Europe is going bankrupt apocalypse everyone who hasn't set one foot in Europe claims because it has seen so on Russian propaganda.

I don't know very well the details of how the energy industry works, but I can't quite explain those prices, being the average price in Spain 0,2460 €/kWh nowadays (The link I have provided gives data from the end of May. At the moment it is a bit more expensive but nowhere near 47 cents).

It's as I mentioned, a German thing, Germany had those differences inprices even before all this mess, this is a document showing prices from 1980:
http://aei.pitt.edu/80172/1/1980_-_1987.pdf
It mentions ~30 pf/kwh, that's 15 euro cents while per comparison the french regions had 60 centimes, which is 9 euro cents.

I say this because Spain doesn't have oil either, it only has 5 nuclear power plants,
~
I don't understand how it can be so much cheaper than Germany.

Well, you answered your own question.

[Don Pedro Dinero]

I say this because Spain doesn't have oil either, it only has 5 nuclear power plants,
~
I don't understand how it can be so much cheaper than Germany.

Well, you answered your own question.

I've had to look for information, because I heard that Germany is in the process of shutting down nuclear power plants or something. I found this, which I'll share for anyone who doesn't quite know what's going on:

'BERLIN, July 18 (Reuters) - Germany may extend the life of its three remaining nuclear power plants, the economy ministry said on Monday, as public support rises in the face of a possible cut-off of Russian gas.

Germany's remaining nuclear plants are scheduled to be shut down by year-end after former Chancellor Angela Merkel pledged to phase out nuclear power following the meltdown at the Fukushima nuclear plant in Japan in 2011.

The three plants made up 6% of Germany's power production in the first quarter of 2022.'

Whereas in Spain Nuclear power produced 20.8% of electricity in 2021.

[Sithara007]

~~~
And what's the minimum wage in India and how does it compare to the 12 euros per hour minimum in Germany?

It's a German thing and has been like so for a decade, despite your endless claims about cheap energy that did bla bla since Ostpolitik (you really love that word, don't you?)  that gave all that misterious advantage for German's economy, the prices for electricity in Germany have always been atrocious. Same as gasoline price, around 1.5 euros since 2003-2004, E10 is currently 1.77/liter. Even diesel that is by default more expensive was 1.42 12 months ago and is 1.82 now in full economic doom and gloom, Germany will freeze to death, run for the hills, Europe is going bankrupt apocalypse everyone who hasn't set one foot in Europe claims because it has seen so on Russian propaganda.

I was just pointing out the wide difference between prices of electricity and that of other commodities. According to you, gasoline in Germany costs €1.50 per liter. Here in India, it costs around ₹100 per liter (€1.25). That means that the tax on gasoline is not that atrocious in Germany. Even in India, around 40% of the price is consisted of tax. On the other hand, for me it looks like electricity is being taxed at a rate of 500% or more. In India, we pay anywhere from €0.03 to €0.10 per KWh, and Germans are paying around 5-10x of that rate. You maybe OK with this, but I don't think that such a high level of tax can be justified.

[zasad@]

^^^ I was trying to convert it to my local currency and €0.5635 per Kwh translates to ₹45 per Kwh. For me it sounds outrageous. I am paying around ₹7 per Kwh (and it is higher than what most of the others pay in India, ranges from ₹3 to ₹8 per Kwh).

And what's the minimum wage in India and how does it compare to the 12 euros per hour minimum in Germany?

It's a German thing and has been like so for a decade, despite your endless claims about cheap energy that did bla bla since Ostpolitik (you really love that word, don't you?)  that gave all that misterious advantage for German's economy, the prices for electricity in Germany have always been atrocious. Same as gasoline price, around 1.5 euros since 2003-2004, E10 is currently 1.77/liter. Even diesel that is by default more expensive was 1.42 12 months ago and is 1.82 now in full economic doom and gloom, Germany will freeze to death, run for the hills, Europe is going bankrupt apocalypse everyone who hasn't set one foot in Europe claims because it has seen so on Russian propaganda.

I don't know very well the details of how the energy industry works, but I can't quite explain those prices, being the average price in Spain 0,2460 €/kWh nowadays (The link I have provided gives data from the end of May. At the moment it is a bit more expensive but nowhere near 47 cents).

It's as I mentioned, a German thing, Germany had those differences inprices even before all this mess, this is a document showing prices from 1980:
http://aei.pitt.edu/80172/1/1980_-_1987.pdf
It mentions ~30 pf/kwh, that's 15 euro cents while per comparison the french regions had 60 centimes, which is 9 euro cents.

I say this because Spain doesn't have oil either, it only has 5 nuclear power plants,
~
I don't understand how it can be so much cheaper than Germany.

Well, you answered your own question.

I know that in the US the cost of electricity is 5-12 cents, with such electricity prices, the production of many goods will become uncompetitive.With a minimum wage of 12 euros per hour, citizens have nothing to worry about, but how things are with pensioners.What is their minimum income per hour or day if they live on only one pension?

[Synchronice]

Well, things are going really tough. Your electricity costs depend on your contract.
Current prices - 29 cents per kWh on electricity and 6 cents per kWh on gas. prices are going to increase, not by 10x but probably by 3-4x. I won't be surprised if I have to pay 1 euro per kWh. Shit! This is the price of wrong politics. Instead of Merkel, people pay it.

I planned to move to Ireland in February but the housing crisis is so severe there that it's impossible to live in Dublin.

Germans will have to say no to a comfortable living. Even with minimum wage, I think people will have money to pay rent, bills and food prices. I think that we have to decrease the heating and put on warm clothes. Not so long ago I spent winter days with winter coats and no heat. Was it harsh? Yes but not a big problem.

[LeGaulois]

The difference between Spain and Germany is because Germany use more gaz than Electricity (IICRC), and since some decades, in Europe, the electricity's network is "connected". We can trade/block/limit between countries. Added to the fact that Spain, as well as Portugual are at the end of this network so the price isn't the same depending on the country.

The funny thing with Germany (but it's not the only country in this situation) is half of the electricity produced comes from renewal energy. That's good? Maybe, but the country sell a percentage of its production to other countries. Less supply for the same demand so the prices can only increase. On the top of that, they're looking for more gas but without Russia, they're out. That's why other countries in Europe will have to help Germany (at least for France so there are surely others countries too. At leastn I hope)

Man, the electricty price is a big problem for us in Europe, and they say the spot price will probably goes up x3 or x4 this winter.
My bills are currently a nightmare, and the worst thing is that we are in the middle of summer, I can't imagine this winter.
I think I'll do like that at home, like a gipsy lol

[DrBeer]

A friend lives in Frankfurt am Main. 2 bedroom apartment, 5 storey building.
No matter how much someone would like, but the cost of electricity for her is something around 0.35 euros per 1 kW / h. A year ago it was about 0.32 euros per 1Kw/h.

Also, please note that out of the 10% price increase in 2002, compared to 2021, 4% (40% out of 10%) is network fees, that is, money that electricity suppliers must pay to network suppliers.

This is far from fantasies about a 10-fold price increase.
Most likely this is ordinary propaganda that lies shamelessly in order to simply raise the degree inside the country, to create a gentle influence on politicians and to make concessions to some subjects outside of Germany. Who needs it and why - think for yourself ...

[LoyceMobile]

Germany screwed up. They closed nuclear power plants because of the disaster in Japan, coal fired power plants because of the climate, and now natural gas is scarce and very expensive. Their green plans don't meet demand, and short term that leads to very high prices.

Natural gas is now 10-15 times more expensive than it used to be. But recently, when I washed my hands after visiting as toilet at a gas station, the water was hot instead of cold. They're now limiting airco usage, but still waste energy elsewhere.

[Sithara007]

Germany screwed up. They closed nuclear power plants because of the disaster in Japan, coal fired power plants because of the climate, and now natural gas is scarce and very expensive. Their green plans don't meet demand, and short term that leads to very high prices.

Natural gas is now 10-15 times more expensive than it used to be. But recently, when I washed my hands after visiting as toilet at a gas station, the water was hot instead of cold. They're now limiting airco usage, but still waste energy elsewhere.

I have posted on this topic (nuclear energy) a lot of times. It is the cheapest and cleanest form of energy available. But for some unknown reason, the green party moonbats want to close down all the nuclear powerpants. I am glad that in my country we are actually trying to cut down on thermal power plants and at the same time trying to increase the share of nuclear energy. I believe that there is enough Uranium in this planet to keep the nuclear power plants running for another 1,000 years (230 years according to the NEA, but I believe that it is an underestimation).

[Don Pedro Dinero]

Germany screwed up. They closed nuclear power plants because of the disaster in Japan, coal fired power plants because of the climate, and now natural gas is scarce and very expensive. Their green plans don't meet demand, and short term that leads to very high prices.

I have posted on this topic (nuclear energy) a lot of times. It is the cheapest and cleanest form of energy available. But for some unknown reason, the green party moonbats want to close down all the nuclear powerpants. I am glad that in my country we are actually trying to cut down on thermal power plants and at the same time trying to increase the share of nuclear energy. I believe that there is enough Uranium in this planet to keep the nuclear power plants running for another 1,000 years (230 years according to the NEA, but I believe that it is an underestimation).

I am also in favour of nuclear, because it is the least bad solution. Especially in Europe, where we have (almost) no oil and gas. But we must not forget the issue of nuclear waste.

Another thing is that Germany, and Europe in general with Germany at the head, has had a suicidal energy policy. While Germany was closing nuclear power plants, China was opening new ones.

In Europe we have set ourselves up as saviours of the planet when what we are going to have to consider is how to save ourselves, which is why I believe that in terms of energy the best option is nuclear.

[stompix]

I was just pointing ~

No, you weren't pointing anything!
I asked you a simple question, what's the minimum hourly wage in India?
You're very good at making stuff up, like the month that has 40 days, the Germany that will freeze to death, and bullshit like this:

What will they do until then? Maybe they will travel in donkey carts and heat their homes by burning firewood?

and when asked a simple question you somehow try to spin it around and avoid the obvious that doesn't align with your narrative.
So if you have one last drop of dignity there and you're not here just for the relentless illiterate Russian propaganda and to make your weekly quota, simple question mister know it all:
At a little gasoline at 1.77 a german person will be able to buy 6.7 liters of gas, how much can an Indian buy?
And if you're man enough, you can answer the second, who is going to drive donkey carts? This one is simple since there is no change from the present.

What is their minimum income per hour or day if they live on only one pension?

The minimum monthly income is exactly 14.72 times the one of the minimum social pension in Russia. Does this answer your question?

[Don Pedro Dinero]

After reading stompix's reply, I reread the thread, and I see that there is a bit of politics being mixed in here that has to do with the war in Ukraine, the more pro-Russian ones trying to emphasise how badly Europe has done on energy policy and others trying to minimise.

A friend lives in Frankfurt am Main. 2 bedroom apartment, 5 storey building.
No matter how much someone would like, but the cost of electricity for her is something around 0.35 euros per 1 kW / h. A year ago it was about 0.32 euros per 1Kw/h.

Also, please note that out of the 10% price increase in 2002, compared to 2021, 4% (40% out of 10%) is network fees, that is, money that electricity suppliers must pay to network suppliers.

This is far from fantasies about a 10-fold price increase.

I don't know what your friend will pay but I can assure you that in Spain the price is much more expensive than it was a year ago, and I don't think Germany is much better off than us:

Electricity wholesale prices have increased in the first quarter of 2022 by 411 per cent in Spain and Portugal, 343 per cent in Greece, 336 per cent in France and 318 per cent in Italy compared to the same period in 2021, according to the European Commission.

Energy bills are soaring in Europe. What are countries doing to help you pay them?

I believe that Europe has to rethink its energy policy and it is going to rethink it, it is going to be forced to do so. To plan for energy cuts because energy policy has been poorly thought out is not a solution.

[Mauser]

For the past few months I’ve been seeing charts and posts about electricity in Germany being extremely expensive. Today I read an article it’s more than 10x expensive than it was between 2010-2020. This can’t be true.

Can someone who lives there verify this?

10x more seems a bit excessive and I really hope this is not going to be the case. In Germany usually there is a fixed payment at the start of the year to the electricity company. The advancement is based on the consumption of the last year with current prices. This also works with the property managers who usually make their plan for the year during spring/summer to calculate the new utility bills for each year. I haven't received any bill for this year yet, which worries me a bit on how much electricity prices actually increased. The problem with the system in Germany is that it can take up to a year in the worst case for the new cost to be transferred to the customer. From a friend of mine who already received all documents for this year and they adjusted their new budget for this year, the only have a 15% increase in electricity cost. From a colleague who lives a bit further away he told me his bill is up 20% this year.

[be.open]

Germany screwed up. They closed nuclear power plants because of the disaster in Japan, coal fired power plants because of the climate, and now natural gas is scarce and very expensive. Their green plans don't meet demand, and short term that leads to very high prices.

Natural gas is now 10-15 times more expensive than it used to be. But recently, when I washed my hands after visiting as toilet at a gas station, the water was hot instead of cold. They're now limiting airco usage, but still waste energy elsewhere.

I have posted on this topic (nuclear energy) a lot of times. It is the cheapest and cleanest form of energy available. But for some unknown reason, the green party moonbats want to close down all the nuclear powerpants. I am glad that in my country we are actually trying to cut down on thermal power plants and at the same time trying to increase the share of nuclear energy. I believe that there is enough Uranium in this planet to keep the nuclear power plants running for another 1,000 years (230 years according to the NEA, but I believe that it is an underestimation).

Uranium reserves are unevenly distributed across the planet and even more unevenly distributed across the planet are uranium enrichment capacities. Germany's refusal to develop nuclear energy looks less populist and frivolous when viewed from the aspect of dependence on enriched uranium imports. To reduce dependence on Russian gas in order to become dependent on Russian uranium is a dubious deal in the long run. Even the United States cannot now refuse Russian enriched uranium, so you will not find uranium and the state corporation Rosatom on the sanctions lists.

[Don Pedro Dinero]

Uranium reserves are unevenly distributed across the planet and even more unevenly distributed across the planet are uranium enrichment capacities. Germany's refusal to develop nuclear energy looks less populist and frivolous when viewed from the aspect of dependence on enriched uranium imports. To reduce dependence on Russian gas in order to become dependent on Russian uranium is a dubious deal in the long run. Even the United States cannot now refuse Russian enriched uranium, so you will not find uranium and the state corporation Rosatom on the sanctions lists.

Interesting argument you raise, I had not heard it until now.

So what do you think could be the solution for Europe to have enough energy supply?

[be.open]

Uranium reserves are unevenly distributed across the planet and even more unevenly distributed across the planet are uranium enrichment capacities. Germany's refusal to develop nuclear energy looks less populist and frivolous when viewed from the aspect of dependence on enriched uranium imports. To reduce dependence on Russian gas in order to become dependent on Russian uranium is a dubious deal in the long run. Even the United States cannot now refuse Russian enriched uranium, so you will not find uranium and the state corporation Rosatom on the sanctions lists.

Interesting argument you raise, I had not heard it until now.

So what do you think could be the solution for Europe to have enough energy supply?

Hydrogen. More precisely, a mixture of 80% hydrogen and 20% natural gas (because hydrogen itself is a very volatile gas). For this mixture, the existing infrastructure of gas pipelines and underground storage facilities can be operated without changes. Moreover, two years ago the European Union published a hydrogen strategy for a climate-neutral Europe. Of course, the covid-19 pandemic and Russia's invasion of Ukraine have pretty much confused the cards, but the EU has no other strategy on this issue.